dawgtrails
Footballguy
Most exciting team to watch during that timeframe. Loved those teamsI hear ya, but are they going to get over the hump at some point or are they going to be the mid 2000's Phoenix Suns?
Most exciting team to watch during that timeframe. Loved those teamsI hear ya, but are they going to get over the hump at some point or are they going to be the mid 2000's Phoenix Suns?
With talented teams like Golden State and Brooklyn out of the running, this may have been the best shot for a lot of teams to win a title. That certainly includes the Heat and probably the Lakers as well.
Jayson Tatum is younger today than all the Celtics players that went on to become a HOFer. NONE of those guys had played in a single NBA game at the age Tatum is right now. And he's already played in 45 playoff games. (That will change when Kevin Garnett gets inducted . . . but the point still stands that Tatum is a youngster in terms of his NBA career.)Tough crowd. They have been to 3 eastern conference finals in the past 4 years. And made a semi-finals appearance the other year. And their two best players are 22, and 23 years old.
Their playoff record under Brad Stevens is 37-36. They have basically been a 0.500 team in the playoff over the past several years. That's the problem with them. Talent alone will win you regular season games and you'll have marginal to decent success in the playoffs--but until they develop an identity or established system--they'll get get a few rounds into the playoffs and end up fizzling out when it counts the most. The Celtics should have won last night but when the Heat made that run against them late in the fourth--it derailed them. They didn't have a system to get them back on track. The Heat made a run and then each Celtic took turns trying to launch three's to somehow bring them back through hero ball. They went from being in the lead to losing the game easily in like a 3-4 minute span.Tough crowd. They have been to 3 eastern conference finals in the past 4 years. And made a semi-finals appearance the other year. And their two best players are 22, and 23 years old.
They just signed Stevens to a contract extension in August, so he is likely here for several years at a minimum. It does not appear the organization sees Stevens as a problem and it appears they hold him in high regard. I don't think he is going anywhere.I very much like where the Celtics are but also realize they need to grow to get over the hump...reading some of the critiques on them I don't think they truly take into account that Tatum is 22 and Jaylen Brown is 23...while these guys still have a lot of maturing to do they are also not close to their upside...to think that they have hit their ceiling makes no sense. While the C's had their faults exposed during the playoffs (the loss of leads was brutal) there is no doubt that when they were playing their best they can blow most teams off the court. Outside of Tatum and Brown continuing to improve a few things have to happen:
*A better and more mature bench...this team is very top heavy...they need some of those Eddie House/James Posey veterans who can help the second unit while also adding some veteran leadership...this should not be overly difficult, they do not have to add stars and these type of players usually like to play for a contender...they also have 3 first round picks so hopefully they can facilitate something thru those.
*More fundamentally sound basketball...too often this team went off the rails and it was ugly...I will cut them slack this year since they are young but Stevens really needs to reign this nonsense in next year...you can't make things easy for your opponent...it is a big year for Stevens next year...he has done an excellent job helping with this rebuild/reload thru a few different iterations but he needs to prove he can get this team to the next level and a lot of it is mental.
*THEY NEED MORE SIZE!!! I get the position-less basketball to a point but they can get exposed with their lack of size...I love Theis but they ask him to do more then they should...it is also time to figure out what Robert Williams is...it will be year 3 next year and it is time to figure out what his role is, he can not continue to be a project next year...with Embiid and Bam around thet need another body that can play with those guys.
The good news is the toughest part about being a championship contender (high-end talent) is not an issue...if Tatum and Brown (and Stevens in reality) can continue their ascent and they can add some quality bench pieces (including size) while developing Robert and Grant Williams and Romeo Langford there is no reason to believe they will not be right back in the spot they were in this year with the chance to get over the hump for many years to come.
I did not say Stevens was on the hot seat nor should he be as he is a very good young Coach...what I said is he needs to reign in these stretches of wildly fundamentally unsound basketball, that is part of the coach's responsibility as is what you wrote in your last paragraph which I agree with 100%...you can throw every analytic in the book at me but my eyes say they need another big man especially since Kantner is such a defensive liability and I get very nervous about relying on Williams.They just signed Stevens to a contract extension in August, so he is likely here for several years at a minimum. It does not appear the organization sees Stevens as a problem and it appears they hold him in high regard. I don't think he is going anywhere.
As I posted earlier this morning, in the regular season, their three "bigs" were their most efficient players (RWilliams, Theis, and Kanter). Over 100 possessions, they averaged a net +36, +25, and +19 points per 100 possessions respectively. (All those are great numbers . . . LeBrown was at +10 this year, Anthony Davis at +19, Giannis at + 19, and Kawhi at +13.) The Celtics three bigs were at the top of the class on the team in win shares per 48 minutes (.253, .201, .214). By comparison, here were the other main contributors (Tatum .146, Brown .123, Kemba .162, Smart .112, Hayward .158).
So say what you want about them needing more size, a real big, etc. . . . they did fine with the guys they had. RWilliams biggest problem has been frequently being dinged up. He didn't play in half the games this season (he was banged up a lot, so hard to tell what he would have done or how much he would have played if healthy). I was not a huge fan of Grant Williams. He seemed slow and out of shape with limited mobility. At 6'6", he really isn't suited to cover someone bigger and more skilled. He didn't bring much to the table in the playoffs as far as I was concerned. They would have been better off playing the other Williams or Kanter more.
The numbers will bear out that playing their small ball lineup of Tatum, Brown, Smart, Walker, and Hayward WAS NOT their best option. They fared much better with one of their bigs in. They may get a little more offense with that small ball grouping, but they won't get enough defense or rebounds from that combination.
I have always found that in both basketball and football that going conservative at the end of the game to try to burn clock usually is a net negative. It generally takes away chances to score and actually helps opponents catch up. If the Celts kept the peddle to the medal and tried to score in transition, if they tried to run their offense, if they tried to get shots in the paint with 10 seconds still on the shot clock, if they tried to draw fouls, they would probably still be playing. That should be an easy coaching fix, yet they didn't seem to change that throughout the playoffs so maybe it is harder than it looks.
Some of the sky-is-falling sports media types in town have grumbled that Stevens and Ainge are a big part of the problem and that either or both should be in a lot more hot water than they are. The talking heads basically feel that if the pieces the Celtics have are as great as people say they are, they would have advanced farther than they have. That may be the Boston is for winners mentality form the past couple of decades and anything but a title is a bad season talking.I did not say Stevens was on the hot seat nor should he be as he is a very good young Coach...what I said is he needs to reign in these stretches of wildly fundamentally unsound basketball, that is part of the coach's responsibility as is what you wrote in your last paragraph which I agree with 100%...you can throw every analytic in the book at me but my eyes say they need another big man especially since Kantner is such a defensive liability and I get very nervous about relying on Williams.
Many of those media-types are beyond doom and gloomers...anything other then an undefeated season and a championship (for all four teams) is looked at as a bad season and they would find a way to complain about a championship as well...the second guessing and how often they are wrong is comical...Stevens/Ainge have done an amazing job putting this together (people forget that the Jaylen Brown pick was met with thumbs down by a lot of people) while not tanking...when you think about it this is like the third iteration of this rebuild...you had Isiah, then Kyrie now this team...I think they are poised for a big time run of contention but they need to show they can get over the hump and I do believe they have the horses to do it...really looking forward to seeing what they do this offseason.Some of the sky-is-falling sports media types in town have grumbled that Stevens and Ainge are a big part of the problem and that either or both should be in a lot more hot water than they are. The talking heads basically feel that if the pieces the Celtics have are as great as people say they are, they would have advanced farther than they have. That may be the Boston is for winners mentality form the past couple of decades and anything but a title is a bad season talking.
I do agree with you that against specific teams, they won't have a good answer for a legit big and will have matchup problems. They could probably get away with finding someone that is a defensive specialist against the Giannis / Embiid / Davis / Adebayo types, but again, if it were so easy to defend those guys the rest of the league would have figured it out by now. IMO, one of the big issues is Walker on the defensive end. He is too small and can't handle someone like Butler. Boston can't put someone else on Kemba's guy or they will get killed by three point shooters. And if Kemba has to switch and ends up on someone even better, that possession is all but over.
This season has been anything but normal, so the bubble version of the playoffs likely gave some teams more of a chance then if they had to play in hostile arenas. No home court advantage, no fans, and no travel definitely leveled the playing field. It will be interesting to see if a team like Miami can play as well next year not in the bubble or if they just got hot at the right time. The Heat certainly played light years better in the bubble than they did away from it (while Milwaukee went the opposite direction).
This is a very interesting point. I don't watch a lot of NBA but have watched a decent amount of the C's game this postseason and this was something that jumped out at me. They seem to love to take/try to take charges. That may be Stevens influence, Smart who seems to me to be the guy in the league that tries to take the most, Tatum coming from the Duke program, Hayward - somewhat similar at Butler (IMO). Now, I'm not saying it's bad or good but if your observation is correct then it seems like something they could correct and get accurate analytics on it - whether they do it more than others, how often it works out and whether it becomes a good idea. People love charges as it's "good defense" - but it's a high risk play, especially in the NBA where the refs have usually been averse to calling them. I'd be interested on the detailed analysis of this and whether it's really had any impact.The C's suffered from completely getting out of their offense in crunch time, chucking up too many threes, not getting back on defense, and committing too many fouls. To me, it seemed like they got one offensive foul called on opponents for every 12 times they tried to draw a charge. Just play defense instead of trying to get a call.
I hope that I'm not coming across as a "doom and gloomer" because I think the Celtics have a lot of the tools required to have championship aspirations. They have plenty of talent, they have lots of youth--but they have no identity. Not one person in here after I made my post about them has stepped up and said what kind of team the Celtics are fundamentally. When they go into each game--what is the style of basketball that they want to impose on the game to give them the best chance to win? Talent alone doesn't win championships--it can take you moderately deep in the playoffs.Many of those media-types are beyond doom and gloomers...anything other then an undefeated season and a championship (for all four teams) is looked at as a bad season and they would find a way to complain about a championship as well...the second guessing and how often they are wrong is comical...Stevens/Ainge have done an amazing job putting this together (people forget that the Jaylen Brown pick was met with thumbs down by a lot of people) while not tanking...when you think about it this is like the third iteration of this rebuild...you had Isiah, then Kyrie now this team...I think they are poised for a big time run of contention but they need to show they can get over the hump and I do believe they have the horses to do it...really looking forward to seeing what they do this offseason.
Like most good teams, that depends on their opponent.When they go into each game--what is the style of basketball that they want to impose on the game to give them the best chance to win?
Okay--I'll bite. What was their plan against the Heat? What was their fundamental style of play that they were going to execute to win that series?Like most good teams, that depends on their opponent.
Not to dodge your question, but Tatum is 22 and Brown 23. If we use Golden State as the recent gold standard of teams, Steph was 26 when they first won the title and Klay 24. Then they added a 28 year old KD to the mix a few years later.I hope that I'm not coming across as a "doom and gloomer" because I think the Celtics have a lot of the tools required to have championship aspirations. They have plenty of talent, they have lots of youth--but they have no identity. Not one person in here after I made my post about them has stepped up and said what kind of team the Celtics are fundamentally. When they go into each game--what is the style of basketball that they want to impose on the game to give them the best chance to win? Talent alone doesn't win championships--it can take you moderately deep in the playoffs.
If talent wins a championship--the Clippers would have swept their way through the playoffs. Part of the reason why the Nuggets outperformed their playoff expectations and talent is because they were successful in imposing their style of ball in a lot of their games. Fundamentally their goal is to run an offense through a two man game between Jokic and Murray. They sometimes have Jokic bring the ball up the court and run Murray off the ball to create "pick and roll/pick and pop" situations where they force defenders to switch (thus creating matchup issues in the Nuggets advantage), or they force the defenders to work through the pick to where either Jokic or Murray could then gauge whether it's best to take a jumper or to get the benefit of a first step towards the basket to where they can set up a layup for themselves or set up a teammate. They run that play so much and do it so well that they can outexecute talent advantages that their opponents have against them. If you look at the Warriors--it's not that curry, klay and kd would just run the ball up the court and shoot it. Kerr implemented a system where he actually tracks the number of passes they make per game, and tracks how many shots were made relative to the number of assists that the team has. He wants most of the shots to come off of ball movement--because the ball can move faster than the best of defenses.
I'm not saying that the Celtics cannot win with the personnel they have now. They probably could--but for that to happen--they need to figure out what they want their identity to be as a collective. Right now they are just a group of young, talented basketball players with really high upside that just cant seem to push through to the finals. To maximize this upside and to push to the next level--they need to establish an identity. Maybe they need a veteran player with a jimmy butler type of attitude that preaches accountabitly and responsibilty. Maybe the team in general is too calm outside of Smart and Brown. Maybe Stevens needs to show a bit more fire and passion to get more out of his players. The first thing that they need to do is establish what they want their basketball identity to be and to build upon that. If they don't do this--I do think they will be in a cycle of losing in the second round or conference finals for the next few years.
I totally agree that they need an identity outside of being very talented but where we differ is I feel like you are treating them like this core has been around for 5-6 years...right now Tatum and Brown are just blossoming, Kemba was in year 1 (and I do think he is banged up) and Hayward’s Celtic’s career has been full of stops and starts right from the first game...due to that it does not surprise me they don’t have an established identity...Anarchy touched on a bunch of this so I won’t rehash too much but how could they really have an identity this year when you were coming off the Kyrie debacle and really did not know exactly what you had in Tatum and Brown...now that you do know they should be ready to establish that identity...if they do they can win a championship and if not they will be one of those teams that is always there but not quite there.I hope that I'm not coming across as a "doom and gloomer" because I think the Celtics have a lot of the tools required to have championship aspirations. They have plenty of talent, they have lots of youth--but they have no identity. Not one person in here after I made my post about them has stepped up and said what kind of team the Celtics are fundamentally. When they go into each game--what is the style of basketball that they want to impose on the game to give them the best chance to win? Talent alone doesn't win championships--it can take you moderately deep in the playoffs.
If talent wins a championship--the Clippers would have swept their way through the playoffs. Part of the reason why the Nuggets outperformed their playoff expectations and talent is because they were successful in imposing their style of ball in a lot of their games. Fundamentally their goal is to run an offense through a two man game between Jokic and Murray. They sometimes have Jokic bring the ball up the court and run Murray off the ball to create "pick and roll/pick and pop" situations where they force defenders to switch (thus creating matchup issues in the Nuggets advantage), or they force the defenders to work through the pick to where either Jokic or Murray could then gauge whether it's best to take a jumper or to get the benefit of a first step towards the basket to where they can set up a layup for themselves or set up a teammate. They run that play so much and do it so well that they can outexecute talent advantages that their opponents have against them. If you look at the Warriors--it's not that curry, klay and kd would just run the ball up the court and shoot it. Kerr implemented a system where he actually tracks the number of passes they make per game, and tracks how many shots were made relative to the number of assists that the team has. He wants most of the shots to come off of ball movement--because the ball can move faster than the best of defenses.
I'm not saying that the Celtics cannot win with the personnel they have now. They probably could--but for that to happen--they need to figure out what they want their identity to be as a collective. Right now they are just a group of young, talented basketball players with really high upside that just cant seem to push through to the finals. To maximize this upside and to push to the next level--they need to establish an identity. Maybe they need a veteran player with a jimmy butler type of attitude that preaches accountabitly and responsibilty. Maybe the team in general is too calm outside of Smart and Brown. Maybe Stevens needs to show a bit more fire and passion to get more out of his players. The first thing that they need to do is establish what they want their basketball identity to be and to build upon that. If they don't do this--I do think they will be in a cycle of losing in the second round or conference finals for the next few years.
Basketball fans that like charges tend to also be fans of the college game where try hard, gritty type players constantly get rewarded for borderline cheap slides and the undercutting of offensive players. The defensive charge attempts feel like they've gone up in the NBA as much as three-pointers. Why?People love charges as it's "good defense" - but it's a high risk play, especially in the NBA where the refs have usually been averse to calling them. I'd be interested on the detailed analysis of this and whether it's really had any impact.
Agreed. Teams must now consider the immediate pressure players feel to win it all or push for a change of scenery. This is a constant chirp in their worlds now and can't be ignored. It only makes the job of most GMs that much more difficult.I am certainly may be in the minority, but I don't view seasons as failure if you beat the defending champs, and lose by the slimmest of margins in the conference finals. Expecially considering how young the team is and how much the injury to Hayward really screwed with them.
There have been 13 teams that have blown 3 games to 1 leads in NBA playoff history. Doc Rivers coached three of them . . .Per Woj
Doc Rivers is not expected to be back with the Clippers
It was a very successful season (even though they had a great opportunity to do more) but Miami deserves a ton of credit because they were the more composed team...Toronto was a huge playoff win, they removed the stench of Kyrie very quickly (remember last offseason the sky was falling), we now have a very good idea of what Tatum and Brown are and once they give Tatum the max the two of them are tied-up for at least the next four years...I will take where they are right now but there is no doubt work needs to be done to get to the next level.MIA is a very good team. I don't think BOS losing to them is anything that requires a complete overhaul of the team and/or their strategy. BOS actually outscored MIA in the series 675-674. A few made shots here, or a few misses there, and the series is a BOS 4-2 win.
I am certainly may be in the minority, but I don't view seasons as failure if you beat the defending champs, and lose by the slimmest of margins in the conference finals. Expecially considering how young the team is and how much the injury to Hayward really screwed with them.
I will be rooting for MIA though.
I saw that last week. Amazing.There have been 13 teams that have blown 3 games to 1 leads in NBA playoff history. Doc Rivers coached three of them . . .
2019-20 Clippers (lost to Nuggets)
2014-15 Clippers (lost to Rockets)
2002-03 Magic (lost to Pistons)
No other coach has lost more than one series with a 3-1 lead.
I remember it well. Their first two series they won every home game and lost every road game . . . 8-0 at home, 0-6 on the road. Garnett, Pierce, and Allen as HOFers and playoff Rondo (who some people feel is a borderline HOF candidate). They had a scoring differential in the regular season of +10.2 points per game, went 31-10 on the road, and shouldn't have needed 7 games to beat the Hawks or Cavs (even with a young LeBron).I saw that last week. Amazing.
Doc seems like a good guy by all accounts, but his teams underachieve way too often. Even the year he won it in Boston, they struggled to beat the 8 seed in the 1st round despite having a bunch of future Hall of Famers.
Doc Rivers only won 1 title and that was with a stacked Super Team when Super Teams were actually Cool. Probably should've won about 2 or 3 with that groupThere have been 13 teams that have blown 3 games to 1 leads in NBA playoff history. Doc Rivers coached three of them . . .
2019-20 Clippers (lost to Nuggets)
2014-15 Clippers (lost to Rockets)
2002-03 Magic (lost to Pistons)
No other coach has lost more than one series with a 3-1 lead.
And get paid $12MM on his existing contract in the meantime.Doc should take a year off and do the TV thing. Recharge.
Not a Celtics homer but from the what I've seen, I'd rather get rid of Kemba and/or Hayward given their output and salaries.Coming as a surprise to no one, Boston talk radio has started to narrow their focus on someone to blame for the Celtics untimely exit from the playoffs. They have zeroed in on Marcus Smart and insist he needs to go. Some of the trades they are proposing . . .
- PG Marcus Smart, C Robert Williams, and the #30 pick in the 2020 draft to the Pacers for C Myles Turner.
- PG Marcus Smart to the Suns for PG Ricky Rubio.
- PG Marcus Smart, PF Grant Williams, C Robert Williams, picks #14 and #26 in the 2020 draft to the Hawks for PF John Collins and C Dwayne Dedmon.
first one is interesting.Coming as a surprise to no one, Boston talk radio has started to narrow their focus on someone to blame for the Celtics untimely exit from the playoffs. They have zeroed in on Marcus Smart and insist he needs to go. Some of the trades they are proposing . . .
- PG Marcus Smart, C Robert Williams, and the #30 pick in the 2020 draft to the Pacers for C Myles Turner.
- PG Marcus Smart to the Suns for PG Ricky Rubio.
- PG Marcus Smart, PF Grant Williams, C Robert Williams, picks #14 and #26 in the 2020 draft to the Hawks for PF John Collins and C Dwayne Dedmon.
He did make a good fit, but they would be fools to not trade him for Marcus SmartSuns aren't dealing Rubio. Wound up being an excellent fit
I don't see Boston trading Smart or anyone else. Smart for $13 million a year is a steal. No one is going to take on Kemba for $34M / $36M / $37M over the next three years. And as already mentioned, I don't see teams fighting to trade for Gordon Hayward for one year at $34M (plus a 15% trade kicker). Boston is a projected $26M over the salary cap and already scheduled to be into the luxury tax for 2020-21, so they will have to add small pieces or role players. Maybe they will get lucky and Hayward will opt out (highly doubtful, but stranger things have happened).He did make a good fit, but they would be fools to not trade him for Marcus Smart
I think there was an undercurrent of "well, I couldn't shoot for them" and Kawhi/Paul weren't going to own it. Someone had to go. Always easiest to let the coach go. Now those 2 can have a say in the coach and be more likely to stayDJackson10 said:Doc Rivers only won 1 title and that was with a stacked Super Team when Super Teams were actually Cool. Probably should've won about 2 or 3 with that group
In general I agree with this. Then again, the China issues and Covid are really going to do a number on the cap next season and add a big element of the unknown into the equation this off-season. Add in a number of teams looking for the off-season after that and the big free agents possibly out there...and I believe that moving those big contracts will be as difficult as ever.Don't ever underestimate the ability to trade bad contracts in a bad contract league.
I’d pick Rivers.Down to Rivers, D'Antoni, and Lue for the Sixers job. Decision next week.
Which is the lesser of the three evils?
Me too - and I was beating him up pretty good after the Clips lost. Question is - would his heart be in it? I think the answer would have been yes if he could have gone home to Chicago.I’d pick Rivers.
Agree.There's no energy from the Lakers. It's like they forgot the series started tonight.
Just wanted to give them a head start.There's no energy from the Lakers. It's like they forgot the series started tonight.
DantoniDown to Rivers, D'Antoni, and Lue for the Sixers job. Decision next week.
Which is the lesser of the three evils?