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Which Party is Most Responsible for the Violent Protests?


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Which Political Party is Most Responsible for the Violent Protests?  

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27 minutes ago, The Gator said:

:shrug:

I don't know what happened to cause the group to "chase" him in the first place.  It seems odd that they would choose to chase an armed man for no reason at all.

The second time he was chased,  he was armed and dangerous, having fled the scene of a homicide.  He posed a threat to the safety of others.  People were rightfully trying to stop and disarm him.

But, again, if he had just obeyed the law that night - he would not be sitting in jail (juvenile detention)  right now.  I am not sure why that is such a touchy subject.

If you admit you don't know anything about the origin of the events, then how can you draw any of these conclusions?     This summary will certainly be shredded by others who haven't looked into the whole sequence of events, but here goes anyway:

Rittenhouse observed a large group of rioters who had set the contents of a large dumpster on fire begin to push the dumpster towards police that were nearby in the street.    This scene has played out over and over in Portland, in Seattle and elsewhere.    On this night, Rittenhouse grabbed a fire extinguisher, ran to the dumpster, and extinguished the fire.    This infuriated many of the rioters, who can be heard screaming at him and threatening him, because he had the audacity to put out a literal dumpster fire, which they were attempting to push towards and into police vehicles.    Several in this crowd decided Rittenhouse obviously wasn't being helpful to their riot, so they came after him, almost immediately after this, a series of shots ring out, a pistol is fired, and the fog of war kicks in as the scene devolves into chaos.     It is not yet clear yet who fired the first shot, although it appears to be from a pistol.    The police investigations and the courts are chartered in our society to sort out what really happened, so we should let that occur.    The portions I described here are on video, however, and should allow you to no longer have to state "I don't know what happened to cause the group to chase him"

Your conclusion is questionable.     Had he extinguished the fire, then simply stood there while the mob attacked him, he likely would be severely injured or possibly dead.

 

Edited by spodog
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2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I believe this is also how the vast majority of BLM supporters see themselves.  I don't know why you think MLK would view BLM through your lens rather than through the viewpoint of the people that he was close to and who shared similar ideologies.  

Because MLK was more balanced and nuanced than those people who shared similar ideologies, which is why MLK was more powerful and effective.  

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3 minutes ago, spodog said:

Your conclusion is questionable.     Had he extinguished the fire, then simply stood there while the mob attacked him, he likely would be severely injured or possibly dead.

When you reach this conclusion are you assuming he is carrying the rifle or not?  

Obviously these are all hypotheticals based on limited knowledge but I'm not convinced that he gets severely injured or killed if he's unarmed, even if he does piss them off by putting out the fire. 

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Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

When you reach this conclusion are you assuming he is carrying the rifle or not?  

Obviously these are all hypotheticals based on limited knowledge but I'm not convinced that he gets severely injured or killed if he's unarmed, even if he does piss them off by putting out the fire. 

I don't have to assume anything.    He was carrying the rifle the entire evening.   

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5 minutes ago, spodog said:

 

Your conclusion is questionable.     Had he extinguished the fire, then simply stood there while the mob attacked him, he likely would be severely injured or possibly dead.

 

My conclusion is spot on.

Had Rittenhouse obeyed the law that evening, he would not be in juvenile detention right now for his actions that night. Period.

There are lots of other events that conspired to get to the outcome - but the one, UNDENIABLE, fact - is that if Rittenhouse had obeyed the law, this would not have occurred.  That was the one element of the evening that was totally in his control.

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1 minute ago, spodog said:

I don't have to assume anything.    He was carrying the rifle the entire evening.   

Right, making the decision to piss off a bunch of already-angry people while carrying a deadly weapon seems pretty likely to provoke a hostile reaction.  He should have been aware of that much. 

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3 minutes ago, The Gator said:

My conclusion is spot on.

Had Rittenhouse obeyed the law that evening, he would not be in juvenile detention right now for his actions that night. Period.

There are lots of other events that conspired to get to the outcome - but the one, UNDENIABLE, fact - is that if Rittenhouse had obeyed the law, this would not have occurred.  That was the one element of the evening that was totally in his control.

There are dozens of undeniable facts that had to occur for the situation to go down like it did.  But the fact is they all did occur and what will be judged is how each of those contributed.  Having a gun there as stupid and probably illegal as it was, does not change the fact that potentionally illegal behaviors of others played a key role in escalating it to the outcome.  You can not ignore other improper/illegal behavior to fairly judge the events of that night.  

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16 hours ago, dkp993 said:

So you can guess the intent of the other people but I can’t get his intent. Sure he came into a riot armed with an AR assault rifle with zero intent If keeping the peace.  So he was just there because it was the cool place to be and he could walk around with his gun.  That’s what you think?  

And your last sentence could very well be true.  He still had no business being there.  None. Let the trained police officers in riot gear and armored vehicles deal with it.  You know the people who’s job it actually is.    

I don't think they were chasing him and beating on him with a skatboard and pulling a handgun on him without intent 

show me your video of this kid assaulting anyone vs self defense - that would support your view

it wasn't smart for him to be there but he had EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to be there  - you could have been there too 100% legally

 

and no, trained police and riot gear is exactly what the Democrats want to do away with !!!  you do see the clash right ? demand the police defunded AND demand they protect everyone AT THE SAME TIME is impossible !!

 

BTW

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-police-looting-suspects-surveillance-video-store

 

again, not Trump voters boys and girls 

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

You can not ignore other improper/illegal behavior to fairly judge the events of that night.  

I am not ignoring anything here.  And, for good measure I was not even talking about his carrying the gun illegally.

 

There was a 9:00 PM curfew.  If Mr. Rittnehouse observes that curfew - he - is not involved in anything else that went on that night.  That was one of the few things that he alone controlled - and did not have to rely on the reactions of others.

 

Just like I hear that Mr. Blake could have avoided being shot, if he had simply obeyed the police - so too could Mr. Rittenhouse have avoided the situation he faces now, simply by obeying the law.  If its good enough advice for Mr. Blake, its good enough advice for Mr. Rittenhouse.

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19 minutes ago, The Gator said:

My conclusion is spot on.

Had Rittenhouse obeyed the law that evening, he would not be in juvenile detention right now for his actions that night. Period.

There are lots of other events that conspired to get to the outcome - but the one, UNDENIABLE, fact - is that if Rittenhouse had obeyed the law, this would not have occurred.  That was the one element of the evening that was totally in his control.

If youre still on the curfew thing you are now embarrassing yourself.

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1 minute ago, The Gator said:

I am not ignoring anything here.  And, for good measure I was not even talking about his carrying the gun illegally.

 

There was a 9:00 PM curfew.  If Mr. Rittnehouse observes that curfew - he - is not involved in anything else that went on that night.  That was one of the few things that he alone controlled - and did not have to rely on the reactions of others.

 

Just like I hear that Mr. Blake could have avoided being shot, if he had simply obeyed the police - so too could Mr. Rittenhouse have avoided the situation he faces now, simply by obeying the law.  If its good enough advice for Mr. Blake, its good enough advice for Mr. Rittenhouse.

all that is true however

 

police are not enforcing curfews - that applied to everyone that night

nobody was supposed to have a gun that night, that applied to everyone

nobody was supposed to chase/assault and try and harm anyone and Rittenhouse obeyed that UNTIL he was attacked, right ?

 

a jury will try him ... and because he's a minor he'll get little to nothing and honestly with high powered lawyers and defamation ... he'll probably be a millionaire from press being so irresponsible but time will tell on that

 

nobody won that night - everyone was a loser and even the felons/criminals that lost their lives and it could have all been avoided if simply nobody protested in the first place in the way they did

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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I honestly don't think much of Pierce or Wood. I think the best thing he will get out of that is free representation. I would like to hear the law and order folks rely on the courts and rest on the judges' and jury's findings, whatever they might do. Sore lack of that during the Trump years from his supporters.

Here is the next guy on the team you should make your mind up about without ever having heard a word from:

http://www.mkp-law.net/lawson_pedigo.htm

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25 minutes ago, spodog said:

Here is the next guy on the team you should make your mind up about without ever having heard a word from:

http://www.mkp-law.net/lawson_pedigo.htm

Fwiw we've heard lots from Pierce and Wood over the years, especially recently, but I'll take a look. Also what's a good review link  of the video that keeps being mentioned? Thanks.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

more evidence of who's responsible

https://www.foxnews.com/us/wisconsin-antifa-commander-flamethrower-tears-fetal-position-arrest

 

again .. none of them maga hat wearers 

Well there you have it, then.  The Democratic party stands for anarchy.  /thread

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1 minute ago, johnnycakes said:

Well there you have it, then.  The Democratic party stands for anarchy.  /thread

who's most responsible was the question

link after link has been provided showing Democrats support antifa, blm and those groups are consistently violent

we also see Kamala and Biden supporting freeing those arrested and asking for donations to do it

we see Democrats doing everything they can to keep police shackled, defunded and out of these zones that are so violent 

we see Biden / Kamala / Democrats using all this that they're supporting and blaming Trump for it ironically ..... not too hard to see through it for what it is

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Neither party, and both equally.

It's basically becoming a show. A dangerous one at that. 

Doing it, supporting it, inciting it, etc. They're all to blame. Heck, I'm to blame for even talking about it. It's stupid, it needs to stop, and co-opting any part of it for political gamesmanship needs to end.

"The libs! The white supremacists!". The people that would divide this country: this is exactly what THEY want. That's what needs to end, along with the nonsense on the streets. 

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3 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Fwiw we've heard lots from Pierce and Wood over the years, especially recently, but I'll take a look. Also what's a good review link  of the video that keeps being mentioned? Thanks.

Well, "over the years" has nothing to do with the future life of this 17 year old kid.    He deserves representation for what is coming his way. 

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3 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Also what's a good review link  of the video that keeps being mentioned? Thanks.

A reporter named Shelby Talcott was in Kenosha at the scene as this unfolded.     Her account of the initial shooting incident is below.   ( The Richie she refers to is Richie McGinnis, who was filming video of the riots for the publication The Daily Caller and was within feet of the encounter between Rittenhouse and the first attacker during the initial shooting.  )

Quote

 

The scene there is chaotic – people yelling, shoving, making threats, then a crowd chasing a young man. Richie is already onsite and, as I’m heading to meet him, the moments leading up to the first shooting are already playing out. Richie sees the alleged shooter hurrying down the street, gun in one hand and fire extinguisher in the other, until he reaches a sort of corner in the parking lot of the gas station.

Meanwhile, I’m moving more rapidly toward the chaos. The key moments caught on video begin to come into focus for me, although I’m not close enough to make out specific faces yet. There’s a loud bang. I stop immediately – I didn’t grow up around guns. It sounds like a gunshot. I’m just not sure

Bang, bang. Three more gunshots? Four? They sound slightly different from the first. People sprint in every direction, screaming and running away from that little gas station on the corner.

“Were those gunshots?” I ask someone next to me.

“Yeah. Yeah. That was gunshots.”

Richie would later tell me that he saw what prompted the first shooting. A verbal fight escalated as the victim tried grabbing the alleged shooter’s rifle – twice. The second time, Richie told me, the victim came very close to getting his hand on the man’s gun, trying to grab it away from him. He may have actually made contact, but it’s unclear amid the mayhem. That’s when the shooter fired.

“I see the shooter run away, and then I run in to provide medical aid,” Richie tells me. “What I didn’t realize until afterwards is that the shooter ran around the car and stood behind me. I screamed at him to call 911, not realizing he was the shooter. He runs away moments later after pulling out his phone.”

We would find out later that the very first gunshot – the sound that appears to have prompted the shooter to turn around, that Richie recounted and that caused me to begin filming, was not from the man who has now been charged with first degree murder.

It came from an unknown gunman who fired a single shot into the air, according to video footage reviewed by The New York Times.

I’m on the ground, bullets flying, seeing the confrontation from farther away. Phone still in hand, I run across the street and toward where the gunfire erupted. At that moment, a swarm of people begin to move in my direction.

 

 

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Oof. This guy got in bed with the protesters in the beginning until they nearly attacked him and he had to be rescued. Now they tried to burn down his building and he’s moving. 
 

Quote

The Democratic mayor of Portland, Ore., is moving from his $840,000 condo to avoid rioters who have repeatedly targeted the building, according to a report.

Ted Wheeler wrote to neighbors in his building to say it would be “best for me and for everyone else’s safety and peace” for him to move from the building that rioters tried to torch on his 58th birthday Monday, according to The Oregonian.

“I want to express my sincere apologies for the damage to our home and the fear that you are experiencing due to my position,” Wheeler reportedly wrote, according to a screenshot of the email.

Portland’s police chief, Chuck Lovell, used the arson attack on Wheeler’s condo building as proof that “the nightly violence is coming at increased cost.”

“Our elected officials need to do their part to draw a line in the sand and to hold people accountable,” he said, calling for “urgent action.”

“The violent behavior must end,” the chief said.


https://nypost.com/2020/09/02/portland-mayor-wheeler-moving-to-avoid-rioters-targeting-building/

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53 minutes ago, spodog said:

A reporter named Shelby Talcott was in Kenosha at the scene as this unfolded.   

Look, I promise I will be objective in looking at the video but I'm not sure Ms. Talcott is exactly an objective woman on the scene here, with such past articles as, "'Fake News!': Trump Calls Out CNN, MSNBC And Fox News In A Single Tweet" and "C-SPAN Caller Trashes Network To Brian Stelter, Calling CNN 'The Enemy Of The Truth'."

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1 hour ago, spodog said:

Well, "over the years" has nothing to do with the future life of this 17 year old kid.    He deserves representation for what is coming his way. 

I realize and appreciate that, but as I said I'm not sure these particular two individuals will have his best interests or best legal avenues in mind. - Like I said let's agree law & order means relying on our American judicial system to handle this appropriately.

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3 hours ago, spodog said:

https://www.#####ute.com/video/KDV4Jp0OQgpD/

Thanks.

Looking at this one, I think the kid has a problem.

  • I will say Antioch Illinois to Kenosha is not a big drive, but he did cross state lines. However even if it was just within WI he must have driven ~45 minutes (?), and he brought that gun, which suggests to me premeditation, not of that specific shooting but of finding trouble in general.
  • Some earlier context would help - why is he on the ground? (He wasn't pushed or knocked down).
  • The people rushing to him may have meant to disarm him, not harm him. I'm not sure I see the justifiable self-defense that must be argued here. Where are the weapons from on-rushers? Where is the surrounding violence?
3 hours ago, spodog said:

https://www.#####ute.com/video/ofZ2ZkseJVZr/

Seems like the same video but I guess here I see a little bit more of the preceding action. He appeared to have been chased, but again, he's carrying a gun on a city street in a volatile situation.

I don't see the charges being dropped but I could see how a jury or some portion, maybe just one person, could vote in his favor on the most egregious charges. But even so it seems to me he will come away with some sort of guilty verdict on something lesser like negligent killing or some lesser manslaughter. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me the prosecutors will emphasize that long drive to Kenosha in trying this.

- eta - Looking at this some more:

  • It looks plain to me that one of the people shot was simply trying to take his gun away from him.
  • The police showing up so quickly right after does not bode well for him. Clearly LE help was nearby.
Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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49 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Which one? The one that hit him with a skateboard, had a gun, or the child abuser? 

00:02 - First guy seems to have no weapons, does step/stomp on him, then runs away.

00:03 - 2nd guy has a skateboard, seems to half trip over him. This person is shot, while running away, in the back. - This is the one who it looked to me tried to take the gun as he momentarily seemed to get hooked up in the shooter's rifle/hands.

00:05 - 3rd guy stops ~2-3 feet short, stands right in front of him, he took no physical action, has no apparent weapons. He is shot at but seems to be miraculously missed.

 

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

00:02 - First guy seems to have no weapons, does step/stomp on him, then runs away.

00:03 - 2nd guy has a skateboard, seems to half trip over him. This person is shot, while running away, in the back. - This is the one who it looked to me tried to take the gun as he momentarily seemed to get hooked up in the shooter's rifle/hands.

00:05 - 3rd guy stops ~2-3 feet short, stands right in front of him, he took no physical action, has no apparent weapons. He is shot at but seems to be miraculously missed.

 

Skateboard guy hits him right in head with skateboard. He was not shot while running away in the back. He was shot while grabbing the gun, in the chest. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

Skateboard guy hits him right in head with skateboard. He was not shot while running away in the back. He was shot while grabbing the gun, in the chest. 

That's a still shot. You can see in the video that he essentially stumbles. My original thought was that he was grabbing for the gun, but if so again that is an attempt to disarm a man, not attack him. - I'll stand by my point about 00:03, skateboard man is leaving when he is shot. 

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2 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

That's a still shot. You can see in the video that he essentially stumbles. My original thought was that he was grabbing for the gun, but if so again that is an attempt to disarm a man, not attack him. - I'll stand by my point about 00:03, skateboard man is leaving when he is shot. 

It is widely reported he was shot in chest. 

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6 hours ago, gianmarco said:

It is silly to turn Kyle into a hero for what he did, but to call a young man who was defending himself against folks who were chasing him and admittedly wanted to kill him a terrorist is even more disgustingly ignorant.  The left is spinning up so much division and hate that Trump is a better option for this country at this point.  I am thoroughly disgusted by how the left is fanning the flames of these violent protests.  

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8 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

It is silly to turn Kyle into a hero for what he did, but to call a young man who was defending himself against folks who were chasing him and admittedly wanted to kill him a terrorist is even more disgustingly ignorant.  The left is spinning up so much division and hate that Trump is a better option for this country at this point.  I am thoroughly disgusted by how the left is fanning the flames of these violent protests.  

If you think that Trump is a "better option" for this country when it comes to less division and hate for the next 4 years, I think you've talked yourself into something.  He gets re-elected and its going to be an extremely ugly 4 years.  I tend to be optimistic, but I begin to wonder if we can survive it intact. 

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18 hours ago, The Gator said:

I am not ignoring anything here.  And, for good measure I was not even talking about his carrying the gun illegally.

 

There was a 9:00 PM curfew.  If Mr. Rittnehouse observes that curfew - he - is not involved in anything else that went on that night.  That was one of the few things that he alone controlled - and did not have to rely on the reactions of others.

 

Just like I hear that Mr. Blake could have avoided being shot, if he had simply obeyed the police - so too could Mr. Rittenhouse have avoided the situation he faces now, simply by obeying the law.  If its good enough advice for Mr. Blake, its good enough advice for Mr. Rittenhouse.

I was about to respond to one of your previous posts with a similar analogy.  I think this is a terrible argument whether it's applied to Rittenhouse, Blake, or some random protester who stays out past curfew and gets pepper sprayed by police.  Maybe that's the point you're trying to make, but it's not really clear IMO.

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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4 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

If you think that Trump is a "better option" for this country when it comes to less division and hate for the next 4 years, I think you've talked yourself into something.  He gets re-elected and its going to be an extremely ugly 4 years.  I tend to be optimistic, but I begin to wonder if we can survive it intact. 

It is ugly no matter what.  I don't know if Kyle is s good human being or a piece of work, but the way the DA has treated him and the media is disgusting.  I am sick of the gross bias and distortion of all of these racially charged stories.  

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13 hours ago, Widbil83 said:

Oof. This guy got in bed with the protesters in the beginning until they nearly attacked him and he had to be rescued. Now they tried to burn down his building and he’s moving. 
 


https://nypost.com/2020/09/02/portland-mayor-wheeler-moving-to-avoid-rioters-targeting-building/

"I never thought the leopards would eat my face."

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I was about to respond to one of your previous posts with a similar analogy.  I think this is a terrible argument whether it's applied to Rittenhouse, Blake, or some random protester who stays out past curfew and gets pepper sprayed by police.  Maybe that's the point you're trying to make, but it's not really clear IMO.

Well, the argument you hear from police advocates is that someone like Blake, or Floyd, would not have suffered the consequences had they simply obeyed the police.

I don't think that is really the issue here - but if you make that argument for the Blakes and Floyds of the world, you have to accept the same is true for Rittenhouse - had he obeyed the law, and gone home at 9:00 - he would not have been in the situation he is in now.

 

That was the one thing that he could control on his own that evening - everything else came down to chance encounters, and reaction from other, over whom he had no control.  

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Kenosha Police Chief Daniel Miskinis on Wednesday suggested that people who violated curfew were to blame for the fatal shooting of two individuals during a night of protests following the police shooting of Jacob Blake.

"Everybody involved was out after the curfew," Miskinis said at a press conference just hours after the Wednesday morning incident in Wisconsin. "I'm not gonna make a great deal of it but the point is — the curfew's in place to protect. Had persons not been out involved in violation of that, perhaps the situation that unfolded would not have happened."

 

 

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7 minutes ago, The Gator said:

We should be lauding the bravery of skateboard dude, who risked his life to try and stop an active shooter from getting away.

While Kyle gets condemned for vigilantism, let's praise this girl-friend beating skateboarder dude for his vigilantism because he aligns with our extremist political views.  If Kyle was in fact really a dangerous killer with a high-power weapon, you don't run after him with a skateboard.

Edited by jon_mx
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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I still can't tell what's shtick and what's just really bad argumentation.

In fairness, you could probably post that exact statement in any random thread in this forum and people would nod quietly in agreement.

There is no shtick in here.  We have two completely divided Americas.  What I see from the wokism on the left is this extreme villianization of one side and an extreme victimization of their side.  There is a complete inability to look at the facts of a situation and make a reasonable fair judgement.  Except for the gun charges against Kyle, I don't think any of them hold up in court.  But yet to the leftist Kyle is some evil terrorist.  

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