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timschochet’s political thoughts and commentary- back in here until the election is done


timschochet

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Do you also find it funny that people who have historically praised Sweden for its economic policies now turn around and criticize how its handing covid?  

Whenever you're tempted to point your finger at the other tribe and laugh at them for "switching sides" on some issue, ask yourself if the exact same critique couldn't be applied to your tribe.  If it seems like a silly criticism of your tribe, then it's probably a silly criticism of the other tribe too.

To answer your question: not really, no. And the reason is that most liberals were never as vocally pro-Sweden as conservatives have been vocally anti-Sweden. Socialists are, sure. But, despite the constant attempt of some to paint American politics  as a struggle between conservatives and socialists, it isn’t. It remains a struggle between conservatives and liberals, and while some knowledgeable liberals might admire certain aspects of Swedish society, they’re typically indifferent. 
 

But your point does have a greater truth, which is that no matter how accurately one criticizes one side of the political spectrum, you can always find examples on the other side that matches it or even exceeds it, allowing for the refutation of “you shouldn’t criticize because BOTH SIDES”, etc. Yes it’s true but it’s also tiresome. Let’s accept in advance that hypocrisy abounds in our society and that every time I criticize those I disagree with politically an example of “my side” being equally bad can be thrown right back in my face. And now let’s move on. 

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20 hours ago, timschochet said:

In fact, the man who first introduced us to fascism, Benito Mussolini, was not a racist at all (at least not until the Germans pressured him into it.)

Oh yeah? Read about Italy in what today is Eritrea and Ethiopia and come back on this, please.

They were all racists (not least to our 21st century eyes).

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16 hours ago, timschochet said:

Random thought of the day: I keep hearing certain conservatives argue that we should imitate Sweden’s approach to COVID. 
 

Putting aside the specific issues involved, am I the only one that finds it amusing that conservatives would seek to use Sweden as a role model for our actions? I can’t think of another country that in the past has been more criticized by the conservative movement as the one place that we DON’T want to be like! I just find that really funny...

Why are these conservatives ignoring that not only do the Swedes not have a better outcome than the US (more dead per capita, for one), their economy has also been hurt to the level of comparable Euripean countries that did lock down. In addition, as posted by @SaintsInDome2006 in the political Covid thread, studies are finding that reopening has in fact not assisted the economy as expected or at all, the root cause is not the lock down but real economic anxiety, not to be confused with the dog whistle anxiety of 2016 

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24 minutes ago, timschochet said:

To answer your question: not really, no. And the reason is that most liberals were never as vocally pro-Sweden as conservatives have been vocally anti-Sweden. Socialists are, sure. But, despite the constant attempt of some to paint American politics  as a struggle between conservatives and socialists, it isn’t. It remains a struggle between conservatives and liberals, and while some knowledgeable liberals might admire certain aspects of Swedish society, they’re typically indifferent. 

Also: Sweden is a liberal capitalist country, not a socialist one.

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25 minutes ago, msommer said:

Oh yeah? Read about Italy in what today is Eritrea and Ethiopia and come back on this, please.

They were all racists (not least to our 21st century eyes).

The Benito Mussolini of 1936 was very different from the Benito Mussolini of 1920. My point was that fascism wasn’t initially tied to racism. It is today, but that’s mainly due to the Holocaust. 

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21 minutes ago, msommer said:

Why are these conservatives ignoring that not only do the Swedes not have a better outcome than the US (more dead per capita, for one), their economy has also been hurt to the level of comparable Euripean countries that did lock down. In addition, as posted by @SaintsInDome2006 in the political Covid thread, studies are finding that reopening has in fact not assisted the economy as expected or at all, the root cause is not the lock down but real economic anxiety, not to be confused with the dog whistle anxiety of 2016 

As I wrote, I wasn’t looking carefully at the specific issues involved when that irony occurred to me. The conservatives who cite Sweden as an example are looking for confirmation of their existing beliefs, the complete opposite of the attitude that @Joe Bryant (rightfully) expressed admiration for. 

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12 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I know literally nothing about how Sweden has done this. But why would you find that funny?

I've always thought one of the marks of maturity was being able to weigh an idea on its merits. I may be critical of how someone does something. But if they have an idea I thought was good, I'd absolutely consider it. That doesn't seem funny at all. 

That kind of tribalism where ideas are dismissed based on who comes up with them is discouraging. 

I agree.  We are dealing with something that is fluid and should be assessed day to day.  I don`t know much about Sweden's past but if they are doing something that help us combat and deal with COVID today we should be very interested. That goes for any other country as well.

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53 minutes ago, timschochet said:

To answer your question: not really, no. And the reason is that most liberals were never as vocally pro-Sweden as conservatives have been vocally anti-Sweden. Socialists are, sure. But, despite the constant attempt of some to paint American politics  as a struggle between conservatives and socialists, it isn’t.

Sweden isn't socialist. It's more capitalist than the United States is.

https://www.aier.org/article/capitalism-saved-sweden/

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I just watched an interview with Nancy Pelosi. She made a lot of good points about the issues of the day. She was not asked about the hair salon story. 
So this goes back to my response to @IvanKaramazov: I am admittedly a fan of Pelosi. The hair salon story is disappointing and her explanation is worse; it’s a bad story all around. She’s been pretty clearly hypocritical here. Does that mean those of us who admire her should change my opinion of her as one of our best leaders? Should we ignore what she said today and everything she says in the future? 
 

I haven’t made up my mind. I suspect it will be, for me, like Hillary: each story like this will make me admire her a little less. It’s not going to change my overall opinion, but it’s a cut, and I’d other such tales are revealed those will be bigger cuts. 

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8 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

We are dealing with something that is fluid and should be assessed day to day.  I don`t know much about Sweden's past but if they are doing something that help us combat and deal with COVID today we should be very interested. That goes for any other country as well.

I read the other day that there are four first-world countries with worse results (deaths per capita) than the United States.

Britain, Sweden, Spain, and Italy, I believe.

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1 minute ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I read the other day that there are four first-world countries with worse results than the United States.

Britain, Sweden, Spain, and Italy, I believe.

The way it was phrased I thought Sweden was doing OK. I guess we should just let them stick to meatballs.

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6 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

It was up through the 1970s.

I remember bringing it up in discussions around 10-15 years ago as a counter example that countries can both have generous social welfare programs and open immigration policies. At one point anti-immigration conservatives would argue that we couldn't have immigration because they would abuse our social programs.

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Just watched an interview with Governor Mike DeWine of Ohio (R) on This Week (ABC). I don’t know much about this guy but he’s very impressive. Working with Democrats on police reform. Loyal to Trump, said clearly what he liked about him (economy, judgeships) but its not blind loyally. Very much a Republican, and seems extremely competent. 
From what I saw (again I don’t know the guy) the sort of leader I wish was in charge of the entire nation.  

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I read the other day that there are four first-world countries with worse results (deaths per capita) than the United States.

Britain, Sweden, Spain, and Italy, I believe.

In deaths per capita, sure (Belgium is strictly speaking there as well, but they have counted unconfirmed, potential covid deaths as covid deaths when most have done the opposite, it's a pretty weird story, their outcome ratio (deaths/resolved cases) is 35%, the world average is 4% and I believe their health care system was not overwhelmed). 

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1 hour ago, Da Guru said:

The way it was phrased I thought Sweden was doing OK. I guess we should just let them stick to meatballs.

Sweden is doing reasonably ok now. They have a high death rate in their outcomes (16%) vs world average (4%) but that is falling slowly, since about June (e.g. through better safety procedures at nursing homes). The reason they are being touted in conservative circles is because they did not have a government mandated lock down. It is an incredibly flawed argument as their economy suffered as much as the rest of the EU, despite their keeping schools and restaurants open. The economic downturn is, simplistically, rooted in consumer's fearing for their livelihood, thus reducing spending, rather than the lockdown

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I just watched an interview with Nancy Pelosi. She made a lot of good points about the issues of the day. She was not asked about the hair salon story. 
So this goes back to my response to @IvanKaramazov: I am admittedly a fan of Pelosi. The hair salon story is disappointing and her explanation is worse; it’s a bad story all around. She’s been pretty clearly hypocritical here. Does that mean those of us who admire her should change my opinion of her as one of our best leaders? Should we ignore what she said today and everything she says in the future? 
 

I haven’t made up my mind. I suspect it will be, for me, like Hillary: each story like this will make me admire her a little less. It’s not going to change my overall opinion, but it’s a cut, and I’d other such tales are revealed those will be bigger cuts. 

For the record, I defended Pelosi on this one in the Pelosi thread. 

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On 9/4/2020 at 9:38 PM, timschochet said:

Good to back, I was suspended for over a month. Let me address that first: I was suspended because the moderators thought I accused @John Blutarsky of being a racist. I disagreed, I didn’t think I did that, but it’s their call. In any case, @John Blutarsky I have no idea if you’re still hanging around the forum, but if you are I had no intention of calling you a racist, I don’t think you are one and I apologize if I gave off that impression. 

That being said, my post in question was pretty aggressive and these things keep happening to me, especially in recent months, because I break my own rules, the main one being: post about the issue, not the person. If I could just stick to that very wise adage I would never get in trouble, but time and again I forget it. 
 

The solution, as it was for me a few years ago, is at least for the time being to limit my thoughts and commentary to a single thread. What I figure is that only those truly interested in engaging in discussion will respond to me here, and those are the folks I want to talk to anyhow. Everyone is welcome to discuss stuff in here with me, but I won’t be posting in any other political threads until after the election. Then we’ll see. I hope to stay out of trouble this way. 

Well at least the mods are suspending libs too!  I thought my suspension was pretty unearned.....I'm  still not sure why

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

To answer your question: not really, no. And the reason is that most liberals were never as vocally pro-Sweden as conservatives have been vocally anti-Sweden.

I think it requires a lot of selective listening to think that this statement is true.  People on the center-left often talk about the benefits of the "Nordic model."  Setting aside the point that that's not really what socialism is, there's plenty of support there if you listen for it.  

It's probably pretty easy to overlook this one because nobody ever gets all red-in-the-face when discussing the pros and cons of Sweden's economic structure, compared to say, abortion or affirmative action.  This topic lends itself better to reasonable, quiet discussion.

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

abortion or affirmative action

Swedes are pretty much in favor of both ;)

(A gross simplification, at least on the second issue. There is now a xenophobic party getting 20-25% of the votes who are not in favor of various types of affirmative action as a means to reduce inequality. Don't think abortion is even discussed in Sweden. It's legal, end of story)

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6 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I think it requires a lot of selective listening to think that this statement is true.  People on the center-left often talk about the benefits of the "Nordic model."  Setting aside the point that that's not really what socialism is, there's plenty of support there if you listen for it.  

It's probably pretty easy to overlook this one because nobody ever gets all red-in-the-face when discussing the pros and cons of Sweden's economic structure, compared to say, abortion or affirmative action.  This topic lends itself better to reasonable, quiet discussion.

This could be true. I am very much a selective listener, though I try to be otherwise. 
But again this goes to what your definition of center-left vs liberal vs socialist is. I admit I get confused about this. 

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21 minutes ago, Manster said:

Well at least the mods are suspending libs too!  I thought my suspension was pretty unearned.....I'm  still not sure why

It’s interesting; I’ve never thought of myself as a “lib”. Though I’ve been socially liberal my entire life, I’ve generally believed in economic conservative values. Those caused me from time to time to call myself a libertarian, and to generally vote Republican for President, through 2012, with very few exceptions. 
I abandoned the Republican Party even before Donald Trump, when the advent of the Tea Party, with its nativism, anti-trade and nationalism offered positions which I profoundly disagreed with. But I did not become an economic liberal. Only very recently has a couple of issues caused me to reconsider the historical notion that FDR and LBJ were correct: there is a positive role for government to aid capitalism and protect it, especially in times of emergency. Those two issues are climate change and the pandemic. 
Yet I remain essentially a capitalist. I still believe that at its core Ayn Rand was correct that capitalism is a moral good and inevitably produces a free and productive society. I still believe that bureaucracy is a threat to individual freedom (though not a deliberate one.) I still believe that private tends to be more efficient than public, and that positive social change more often results from the bottom up rather than the top down. I doubt I will ever change my opinion on these core values, so I don’t think socialism will ever work for me. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

It’s interesting; I’ve never thought of myself as a “lib”. Though I’ve been socially liberal my entire life, I’ve generally believed in economic conservative values. Those caused me from time to time to call myself a libertarian, and to generally vote Republican for President, through 2012, with very few exceptions. 
I abandoned the Republican Party even before Donald Trump, when the advent of the Tea Party, with its nativism, anti-trade and nationalism offered positions which I profoundly disagreed with. But I did not become an economic liberal. Only very recently has a couple of issues caused me to reconsider the historical notion that FDR and LBJ were correct: there is a positive role for government to aid capitalism and protect it, especially in times of emergency. Those two issues are climate change and the pandemic. 
Yet I remain essentially a capitalism. I still believe that at its core Ayn Rand was correct that capitalism is a moral good and inevitably produces a free and productive society. I still believe that bureaucracy is a threat to individual freedom (though not a deliberate one.) I still believe that private tends to be more efficient than public, and that positive social change more often results from the bottom up rather than the top down. I doubt I will ever change my opinion on these core values, so I don’t think socialism will ever work for me. 

Sorry for the generalization.  Since this board is overwhelming left leaning, I tend to make some assumptions sometimes that are not completely correct.  I'm a big boy, and can admit when I'm wrong.

I tend to agree with most of the above.  I will say that Im pretty sure where we will diverge is the degree to which the pandemic, and global warming, are a concern.  I'm not going to get into details right now, but I believe that the left is using fear attached to both issues to promote themselves politically......and I realize the right does the same thing.....it's politics.  I think both big parties are misleading their base to some extent.

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16 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It’s interesting; I’ve never thought of myself as a “lib”. Though I’ve been socially liberal my entire life, I’ve generally believed in economic conservative values. Those caused me from time to time to call myself a libertarian, and to generally vote Republican for President, through 2012, with very few exceptions. 
I abandoned the Republican Party even before Donald Trump, when the advent of the Tea Party, with its nativism, anti-trade and nationalism offered positions which I profoundly disagreed with. But I did not become an economic liberal. Only very recently has a couple of issues caused me to reconsider the historical notion that FDR and LBJ were correct: there is a positive role for government to aid capitalism and protect it, especially in times of emergency. Those two issues are climate change and the pandemic. 
Yet I remain essentially a capitalist. I still believe that at its core Ayn Rand was correct that capitalism is a moral good and inevitably produces a free and productive society. I still believe that bureaucracy is a threat to individual freedom (though not a deliberate one.) I still believe that private tends to be more efficient than public, and that positive social change more often results from the bottom up rather than the top down. I doubt I will ever change my opinion on these core values, so I don’t think socialism will ever work for me. 

Harumph.  How do you feel about Biden's proposal to hike taxes on the rich so that free public post-secondary education can be afforded to families making less than $125k?

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On 9/5/2020 at 9:15 AM, timschochet said:

So at the Democratic Convention, President Obama stated that this is the most important election ever and that American democracy is at stake. 
At the Republican Convention, President Trump stated that this is the most important election ever and that American freedom is at stake. 

Hey Tim nice to see you again good buddy.

Speaking of the Democrat convention, what are your thoughts on not one person in the entire four days addressing the damage, looting and rioting around the country?

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

The perception of conservatives who have discussed Sweden in the past has been that it’s a socialist country (whatever that means.) 

There is no "perception" Tim (unless you are equating talking point and perception).  That's the problem.  They heard it incorrectly from someone and it becomes their truth.

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Just watched an interview with Governor Mike DeWine of Ohio (R) on This Week (ABC). I don’t know much about this guy but he’s very impressive. Working with Democrats on police reform. Loyal to Trump, said clearly what he liked about him (economy, judgeships) but its not blind loyally. Very much a Republican, and seems extremely competent. 
From what I saw (again I don’t know the guy) the sort of leader I wish was in charge of the entire nation.  

Its interesting, if he runs for re-election, DeWine may be the last Republican I vote for in a long, long time after a lifetime of voting GOP.  I really appreciated his early and science-based handling of the early Covid stuff...a very proactive approach.  He had a team of health experts (the main one, his director of health was a Dem), he listened and deffered to their expertise, and he made smart decisions based on their advice....a rarity in today's Republican Party.  I get the impression that he is a genuinely good guy. 

It wasn't easy as he took tons of guff from what I call the mouthbreather right in the state.  He received HUGE push-back from his own party in-state.  In fact, just a few weeks ago a significant chunk of the state GOP began to try and impeach him simply for listening to his health experts.  Disgraceful. but par for the course from that wing nowadays.  Unfortunately, as I have learned the last several months, per capita Ohio definitely has a higher percentage of anti-mask, Plandemic kooks than other areas.  Jim Jordan is not an anomaly here in rural, outer-suburban Ohio.  The Trumpists in Ohio simply hate DeWine...call him a RINO.  He had a high approval in late June in how he handled it, but I fear if he runs for re-election he wouldn't win.  The Trump right more than abandoned him and when push comes to shove, I'd bet the Dems while appreciating his handling, would naturally vote for the Dem governor candidate.  Tough to run as a moderate leaning candidate in an increasingly extreme shifting Ohio.  Its the reason Ohio will likely go easily Trump in 2020 and no longer be the battleground state in once was ("as Ohio votes, so goes the nation in president") .  Much closer to Indiana and Kentucky anymore than Michigan and Pennsylvania.

 

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21 hours ago, timschochet said:

Random thought of the day: I keep hearing certain conservatives argue that we should imitate Sweden’s approach to COVID. 
 

Putting aside the specific issues involved, am I the only one that finds it amusing that conservatives would seek to use Sweden as a role model for our actions? I can’t think of another country that in the past has been more criticized by the conservative movement as the one place that we DON’T want to be like! I just find that really funny...

Interesting. I wasnt really aware of too many prior criticisms of sweden in particular. Definitely remember reading some criticisms when the grenade explosions were happening and some immigration stuff. On the flip side I have seen conservatives tout their gun ownership levels. 

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2 hours ago, johnnycakes said:

Harumph.  How do you feel about Biden's proposal to hike taxes on the rich so that free public post-secondary education can be afforded to families making less than $125k?

I’m against it. I do think taxes should be raised at the present time, but more to deal with the deficit and current economic concerns, pay for infrastructure and climate change, etc. 
 

Education is always a concern but the money is better spent on primary, IMO. 

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2 hours ago, Widbil83 said:

Hey Tim nice to see you again good buddy.

Speaking of the Democrat convention, what are your thoughts on not one person in the entire four days addressing the damage, looting and rioting around the country?

Well the Republicans made up for it by talking about it non stop didn’t they? Lol. 

Watch any liberal on television lately and there is no looting or violence going on, unless it’s by right wing extremists looking to cause trouble. On the other hand, watch Trump or any conservative and there are no peaceful protests at all, only violent anarchists looking to burn and loot and fully supported by the Democrats. 
 

I think you know what I believe: as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle, though personally I think it leans far more on the liberal side. There are mostly peaceful protests on the left, but there are also some idiots on the left, some bad people on the left, and some criminals and thugs taking advantage and looking to loot. There are also some idiots and bad people on the right out there looking to provoke trouble. And then there’s Trump egging the whole thing on. This problem will not go away until we have real police reform in this country- reform, NOT defund. 
 

 

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57 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Interesting. I wasnt really aware of too many prior criticisms of sweden in particular. Definitely remember reading some criticisms when the grenade explosions were happening and some immigration stuff. On the flip side I have seen conservatives tout their gun ownership levels. 

You probably never listened to as much talk radio as I did. It’s a sickness I have. 

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5 hours ago, timschochet said:

I just watched an interview with Nancy Pelosi. She made a lot of good points about the issues of the day. She was not asked about the hair salon story. 
So this goes back to my response to @IvanKaramazov: I am admittedly a fan of Pelosi. The hair salon story is disappointing and her explanation is worse; it’s a bad story all around. She’s been pretty clearly hypocritical here. Does that mean those of us who admire her should change my opinion of her as one of our best leaders? Should we ignore what she said today and everything she says in the future? 
 

I haven’t made up my mind. I suspect it will be, for me, like Hillary: each story like this will make me admire her a little less. It’s not going to change my overall opinion, but it’s a cut, and I’d other such tales are revealed those will be bigger cuts. 

Serious question: does Pelosi not even getting asked about the hair salon story in an interview make you see why many have an issue with the media?   If Mitch McConnell (whom we could argue is the 'R' equivalent of Pelosi, yes?) had done the same thing, we would never hear the end of it for weeks from all of the media except Fox News, but since it was Pelosi, the media is already trying to let this story die a quick death, and it is only a matter of time before many blow off any mentions of it as being a "Fox News story."

Note: I am not defending Fox or Republicans, nor do I think what Pelosi did was the crime of the century; I just think the hypocrisy and bias of the media is on blatant display, and I am curious if you, a frequent defender of the media (IIRC), see it? 

Trump is absolutely the worst messenger, but his constant diatribes about how distrustful the media is, resonates with a lot of people, and for most of us, our distrust predates the Trump presidency by many, many years. 

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10 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Serious question: does Pelosi not even getting asked about the hair salon story in an interview make you see why many have an issue with the media?   If Mitch McConnell (whom we could argue is the 'R' equivalent of Pelosi, yes?) had done the same thing, we would never hear the end of it for weeks from all of the media except Fox News, but since it was Pelosi, the media is already trying to let this story die a quick death, and it is only a matter of time before many blow off any mentions of it as being a "Fox News story."

Note: I am not defending Fox or Republicans, nor do I think what Pelosi did was the crime of the century; I just think the hypocrisy and bias of the media is on blatant display, and I am curious if you, a frequent defender of the media (IIRC), see it? 

Trump is absolutely the worst messenger, but his constant diatribes about how distrustful the media is, resonates with a lot of people, and for most of us, our distrust predates the Trump presidency by many, many years. 

I know you were asking Tim, but I'm surprised she wasn't asked about it. Seems strange.

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1 hour ago, Ghost Rider said:

Serious question: does Pelosi not even getting asked about the hair salon story in an interview make you see why many have an issue with the media?   If Mitch McConnell (whom we could argue is the 'R' equivalent of Pelosi, yes?) had done the same thing, we would never hear the end of it for weeks from all of the media except Fox News, but since it was Pelosi, the media is already trying to let this story die a quick death, and it is only a matter of time before many blow off any mentions of it as being a "Fox News story."

Note: I am not defending Fox or Republicans, nor do I think what Pelosi did was the crime of the century; I just think the hypocrisy and bias of the media is on blatant display, and I am curious if you, a frequent defender of the media (IIRC), see it? 

Trump is absolutely the worst messenger, but his constant diatribes about how distrustful the media is, resonates with a lot of people, and for most of us, our distrust predates the Trump presidency by many, many years. 

It’s a legit point. When did the hair thing take place? Maybe there’s nothing new to ask her about it. 
But to your larger argument: it was on an MSNBC show that certainly leans left. And you’re correct that I have been and continue to be a defender of the news media. But it’s important to note that, prior to the Trump years, the conservative argument against the media was that it reported the news with a liberal bias. I took issue with that argument, but you’re right that instances like this one bolster the case. But ever since Trump there’s been a different argument being made which is that the news media lies and makes stuff up. That’s a very dangerous accusation and so far as I know there’s no evidence of it being true. 

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

That’s a very dangerous accusation and so far as I know there’s no evidence of it being true. 

The media will never have to make anything up directly.

All they need to do is quote a person making it up and skip any fact checking. At all. And then not even bother with a retraction.

Covid has really exposed this.

Perfect example was the story out of CA where a 17 year old died of complications due to covid. It was reported he was denied care at an urgent care because he didnt have insurance and then died on the way to the hospital from the urgent care. 

This story reeked from the get go. Being a Californian you should know right away it would be weird to not have insurance for a 17 year old, since it is free if the family cant afford it. 

And it turns out that not only did they have insurance, but they literally never even went to any urgent care facilities. They called an urgent care from home and were told to call an ambulance to go to the hospital. The correct and best practice. 

How could this be reported so poorly? How could the media put this out there when it is so blatantly false? 

Easy. They liked the story and had somebody saying this (in a facebook video no less). So they arent lying. They are just the messenger, ya know. 10 years ago there is no way that story makes the rounds. Somebody would have at least called the urgent care accused of denying care or the family. 

Time magazine is the only publication i saw issue a retraction or correction. 

Yamiche Alcindor couldnt be bothered to offer up a follow up tweet even. 

 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

It’s a legit point. When did the hair thing take place? Maybe there’s nothing new to ask her about it. 
But to your larger argument: it was on an MSNBC show that certainly leans left. And you’re correct that I have been and continue to be a defender of the news media. But it’s important to note that, prior to the Trump years, the conservative argument against the media was that it reported the news with a liberal bias. I took issue with that argument, but you’re right that instances like this one bolster the case. But ever since Trump there’s been a different argument being made which is that the news media lies and makes stuff up. That’s a very dangerous accusation and so far as I know there’s no evidence of it being true. 

With all due respect, you didn't answer my simple question (repeated below), and instead went off on the "Trump accuses the media of lying" tangent under the guise of what you considered my larger argument.  I guess I should have known better than to ask a simple yes/no question.

Does Pelosi not even getting asked about the hair salon story in an interview make you see why many have an issue with the media? 

2 hours ago, whoknew said:

I know you were asking Tim, but I'm surprised she wasn't asked about it. Seems strange.

It doesn't surprise me.  It's what I would expect.

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On 9/5/2020 at 9:15 AM, timschochet said:

Conclusion: both parties are using fear as their means to win. I get it but I hate it. I hate what our politics are becoming. Give me the Barack Obama of 2008 or the Ronald Reagan of 1980. I want to feel good. 

This is something that I’d be hair-on-fire PO’d about if the race was closer. Dems seem to be making a mistake similar to what they did in 2016 — spending tons of energy on convincing people that Trump is bad instead of making an affirmative case for their candidate.

There was a recent study that outlined how bad of a strategy this is. Both positive and negative Biden ads were way more effective at changing votes than positive or negative Trump ads. People’s minds are already made up about Trump, not Biden. According to that study, though, 88% of Democrats’ ads have been attacks against Trump. Infuriating.

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7 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

With all due respect, you didn't answer my simple question (repeated below), and instead went off on the "Trump accuses the media of lying" tangent under the guise of what you considered my larger argument.  I guess I should have known better than to ask a simple yes/no question.

Does Pelosi not even getting asked about the hair salon story in an interview make you see why many have an issue with the media? 

It doesn't surprise me.  It's what I would expect.

I did answer it. I wrote that it’s a legit point and I wrote that it bolsters the argument that the media has a liberal bias. I’m not sure what else you’re looking for. 

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6 minutes ago, caustic said:

This is something that I’d be hair-on-fire PO’d about if the race was closer. Dems seem to be making a mistake similar to what they did in 2016 — spending tons of energy on convincing people that Trump is bad instead of making an affirmative case for their candidate.

There was a recent study that outlined how bad of a strategy this is. Both positive and negative Biden ads were way more effective at changing votes than positive or negative Trump ads. People’s minds are already made up about Trump, not Biden. According to that study, though, 88% of Democrats’ ads have been attacks against Trump. Infuriating.

I’m not sure I agree with you. I don’t like the doom and gloom of the Democrats approach but I very much think the campaign focus should be on Trump and not on Biden. And I don’t believe that 2016 or any other election provides a good example of why this would not be so. The circumstances this year are rather unique. 

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53 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

The media will never have to make anything up directly.

All they need to do is quote a person making it up and skip any fact checking. At all. And then not even bother with a retraction.

Covid has really exposed this.

Perfect example was the story out of CA where a 17 year old died of complications due to covid. It was reported he was denied care at an urgent care because he didnt have insurance and then died on the way to the hospital from the urgent care. 

This story reeked from the get go. Being a Californian you should know right away it would be weird to not have insurance for a 17 year old, since it is free if the family cant afford it. 

And it turns out that not only did they have insurance, but they literally never even went to any urgent care facilities. They called an urgent care from home and were told to call an ambulance to go to the hospital. The correct and best practice. 

How could this be reported so poorly? How could the media put this out there when it is so blatantly false? 

Easy. They liked the story and had somebody saying this (in a facebook video no less). So they arent lying. They are just the messenger, ya know. 10 years ago there is no way that story makes the rounds. Somebody would have at least called the urgent care accused of denying care or the family. 

Time magazine is the only publication i saw issue a retraction or correction. 

Yamiche Alcindor couldnt be bothered to offer up a follow up tweet even. 

 

I don’t know the story you’re referring to. But COVID has been terrible enough (and in terms of politics, Trump’s incompetence has been so horrendous and disqualifying) that no exaggeration by the media is necessary. 

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5 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Okay, so your answer is yes...got it.  I was merely curious.

It’s yes but I already knew it. Just because I disagree with a point of view doesn’t mean I don’t try to understand it. I totally get that conservatives as a general rule believe that the mainstream media has a liberal bias. I totally get that there are plenty of anecdotes that back up this point of view. I don’t think these examples are enough to prove the point and I disagree with the argument. But I think I get where it’s coming from. 

Edited by timschochet
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