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timschochet’s political thoughts and commentary- back in here until the election is done (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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proteus126
Footballguy
I talked with a few moderate to slightly conservative (financial not lifestyle) suburban women yesterday, and asked them how they felt about the debate. I tried not to be prompting, mostly just a general "who do you think won", followed by a more focused question on candidate behavior. Like most of us, they thought the debate was awful with no coherence and no traditional winner. What struck me was their unanimous visceral reaction to Trump's behavior. They were NOT impressed, and strongly disapproved of Trump's tendency to interrupt and talk over Biden and the moderator. A lot of women dislike interacting with "that kind of guy".
So yes, he may have pleased his fanboys with his "dominance" of Biden especially in the first 30 minutes before his stimulants wore off, but he's not moving the needle where it matters, and could be sinking even a little more. The clock is ticking...
So yes, he may have pleased his fanboys with his "dominance" of Biden especially in the first 30 minutes before his stimulants wore off, but he's not moving the needle where it matters, and could be sinking even a little more. The clock is ticking...
timschochet
Footballguy
Interesting. One of my neighbors is a huge Trump guy, would attend rallies if he could, Trump can do no wrong, etc. Yesterday he ripped Trump for the first time ever, at least in front of me. He hated the interruptions, hated that Trump wouldn’t condemn the Proud Boys.
I’m sure he’s still going to vote for him, but the idolization seems to be gone. I wonder if this is true for other Trump supporters?
timschochet
Footballguy
Last night in Minnesota, President Trump warned that if Biden is elected, he would turn that state into a “refugee camp.” Complaining about Ihlan Omar, he asked her “how is YOUR country doing?” (meaning Somalia) was the crowd screamed “Lock her up!”
Is it possible that the main reason President Trump refuses to repudiate white supremacy groups is because he shares their views?
Is it possible that the main reason President Trump refuses to repudiate white supremacy groups is because he shares their views?
gianmarco
Footballguy
Why is it that Trump has no issues condemning "Liberal-led cities" or condemning people that speak up against him? He has no problems saying that leadership in places like Chicago or Portland are the worst he's ever seen and they need to go.
Why can't he show that same passion for an alt-right hate group like Proud Boys? The best he could muster was "sure" and "stand by"?
Why can't he show that same passion for an alt-right hate group like Proud Boys? The best he could muster was "sure" and "stand by"?
whoknew
Footballguy
As we discussed yesterday, this is all great. Except now we are 36 hours later and he still has yet to clarify it. Instead, yesterday, he did his "I don't know who they are" thing -
""I don't know who the Proud Boys are. I mean, you'll you have to give me a definition because I really don't know who they are. I can only say they have to stand down, let law enforcement do their work," Trump said of the group which has staged counter protests in cities like Portland that have experienced recent violence."
--
If I knew people thought I was siding with white supremacists, I would make damn sure that people knew I didn't. And condemn them in the strongest terms. Trump has now had 36 hours to do so and has done nothing of the sort. Why is that?
The Z Machine
Footballguy
There's been a ton of pushback on that sort of behavior from domineering men in the last few years. It started with a lot of feminist women, but I'm sure has bled over into mainstream, middle of the road women. All of them are sick of men talking over women, taking credit for their ideas, and not giving any space for other voices than their own. Trump was the ne plus ultra of this behavior at the debate. The shift from R (2016) to D (2020) in this demographic will be massive, and will likely carry Biden over the finish line.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Nah, that's not possible. He's never expressed those sorts of thoughts in public or private. He treats all people with the utmost respect, regardless of country of origin.
Oh wait... that's not right at all. It's the exact opposite of what I said. Sorry.
sho nuff
Footballguy
And then a lie that he doesn't even know who they are. Is it because he knows he gets support from such groups?
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dgreen
Footballguy
At worst, he shares their views and wants to act on it.
At best, he doesn't share their views, thinks they are horrible people, but puts that aside to do whatever he needs to do to win their support.
timschochet
Footballguy
Senator Tim Scott distanced himself from Trump’s comments, although he gently used the word “misspoke”. Mitch McConnell quickly allied himself with Scott.
I have long thought that the 2024 Republican nomination will be a struggle between an “establishment” candidate and a “Trumpian” candidate. I’m thinking now that Scott has a real shot for the “establishment” candidate.
I have long thought that the 2024 Republican nomination will be a struggle between an “establishment” candidate and a “Trumpian” candidate. I’m thinking now that Scott has a real shot for the “establishment” candidate.
whoknew
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
OK I tried. I came out of this thread because things changed when President Trump got sick. I thought it was perhaps possible at that point to have a real conversation. I was wrong.
Once again, those you who want to have a conversation with me, I’d love it. @unckeyherb I’d love for example to have a debate with you about sexism in our society. You strike me as extremely thoughtful though I really disagree with you on this subject.
But I’m not interested in trading insults. And I’ve learned my lesson. Here I shall stay until the election is decided.
Once again, those you who want to have a conversation with me, I’d love it. @unckeyherb I’d love for example to have a debate with you about sexism in our society. You strike me as extremely thoughtful though I really disagree with you on this subject.
But I’m not interested in trading insults. And I’ve learned my lesson. Here I shall stay until the election is decided.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Good stuff. I won’t be able to do too much tonight though. But let’s start anyhow. Many of the women that are reacting to this debate from what I’m seeing are annoyed that Pence was patronizing and always interrupting Harris. Women really hate that. You may not see the sexism but a whole lot of women see it.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Interrupting Harris is one thing, I think that is to be expected. Completely blowing off the moderator is another.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
I saw more of talking over the moderator. Which every candidate has always done! This is not some new thing. To call it out as sexist now is the height of lame. He didn’t interrupt Harris any more than she did to him. It’s a debate. These things happen. All of a sudden this behavior is sexist? I disagree
ETA yes It’s 11 here so I’m out for tonight but i look forward to whatever you want to discuss. Your brevity is well known around these parts, so I look forward to our discussion.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
That's a real thing.
And Biden is crushing it with women right now. Tonight did not help Trump.
But to the point, we do have a def locker room banter slant to the forum. It's the same thing when we are watching a ladies grand slam final or womens Olympic events in the FFA. Very little talk of the athletes performance, most comments are through the lens of objectification.
Some people simply have a hard time analyzing a person's strengths and weaknesses if we are discussing a woman. The default fall back is sophomoric humor.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Encyclopedia Brown
Footballguy
The Over/Under on this pledge breaking before Columbus Day?
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
This behavior being viewed as sexist is not "all of the sudden". This idea is not new. If you noticed I already stated that I didn't think interrupting Harris was a big deal from my perspective, but I would not be surprised if polls tomorrow show that women saw this differently than you or I.
I do disagree with you about ignoring the moderator. I'd be interested in "time of possession". I would not be surprised if Pence had the ball about 55% of the time. That to me would be a problem for Pence (and Trump) as far as perception goes.
ETA: Per CNN there was only a three second difference between the candidates so I guess my perception of who was talking the most was off.
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squistion
Footballguy
Tim, your own thread will never work long term, because a topic comes up you are dying to give your opinion on, but you are limited to the few people that post in your designer thread and that has never been satisfactory to you and it won't be in the future. It didn't work before, and this attempt failed too. End this thread and rejoin the living in the rest of this forum.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don’t really care whether you have your own thread or not but I don’t see how having this thread makes conversations happen and trading insults stop.
If anything it makes commenting on a topic tough because there is no topic.Patronizing? Perhaps when Pence is in control of the conversation. Pence is boring as hell, but was disciplined. Harris was fine, but still waiting for her to answer a question between her smirks and non-answers.
It would be great if either candidate actually answered a question, particularly Harris.
Let's discuss. I will readily available as we get to the weekend. Over a beer or two of course, but respectful.
massraider
Footballguy
And women noticed probably twice as much as men did.
The hard truth is that Pence had to be more cognizant of interrupting, talking over, mansplaining, etc., because of Trump's colorful history of respecting women, and the poll numbers.
It's not like Camp Biden was over there like, "Hey Kamala, don't interrupt, we really want to shore up those numbers with 60 year old white guys from Indiana".
massraider
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
And I'll add, on a board here dominated by men, we should pay attention to this. It's almost certainly another implicit bias we have and can do better with. I certainly didn't pick up on it much last night and probably should have.
I know some of you are saying "he would have done the same thing if it was a man up there" or "she did the same to him", but it is clear his actions last night rubbed a lot of women the wrong way and instead of dismissing that sentiment, we should learn from that and try to be better from that standpoint.
massraider
Footballguy
I am sure there will be some frustration on the coverage, as people do get interrupted in debates. Someone can make that argument till they are blue in the face, but women aren't trying to hear that.
timschochet
Footballguy
Good morning. I see many people here have made my argument for me; there’s little for me to add, though I invite those who didn’t find last night to be an exercise in racism to respond.
timschochet
Footballguy
Donald Trump has made one terrible political move after another during the last 10 days or so, so it shouldn’t be any surprise that he’s refusing to do the virtual debate. He sounds like a whiny baby, This won’t help him at all.
KiddLattimer
Footballguy
He needs the debates more than Biden does. He's helping the Democrats out tremendously by giving them a reason not to debate.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well according to him, he easily won the first debate and now everyone is out to protect Biden.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Pence interrupted Kaine 40 times.
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s the way he did it. It was the condescending manner. Also the way he interrupted the female moderator. Women hate this sort of thing.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Some women do. Many do not, or at least many realize that interruptions happen all the time at debates.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I am not disagreeing that women hate being interrupted. Women disliking something doesnt make whatever it is sexist though. That isnt the threshold.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
In political debates perception may be more important than reality. I think that's likely true for more than sexism.
As an aside, I think debate watching moderates would probably reward candidates for never interrupting, being kind and not excessively going over their allotted time. If I were a campaign manager, I'd stress that.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
So what would make it sexist?
If it was found that men interrupted women more than they interrupt other men, would that make it sexist?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Who care what women like or hate? He treated the moderator the same way all politicians treat all moderators. You just sent a female and pounce on the opportunity to scream sexism. Still trying to figure out what was racist last night? Or is any criticism of Kamala now racist because she's black?
