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timschochet’s political thoughts and commentary- back in here until the election is done (1 Viewer)

rockaction said:
You're the home of national GOP presidents. That does not mean you are the home of the GOP.

Come to think of it, I don't think the GOP has a home. Probably AZ more than anywhere. That's Goldwater country, and he helped change the face of the party for good. 
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One of our greatest Americans...

 
timschochet said:
Plus he was honest to a fault. Completely incorruptible. 
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As long as this is a catch-all thread, I think the media has lost the conservatives as truth tellers when they tried to brand Goldwater as insane when he ran in '64. That and the Goldwater Rule. It's long been that conservatives -- even ones like myself -- are likely to treat media stories and would-be experts as full of ####. Now, when we need faith in the media and experts the most, they've completely lost people about basic facts that should be universal and a charlatan and would-be tyrant sits in the head office of the executive branch of government.

But it's the media's own petard from which they were hoisted. Goldwater is a shining (or dirty) example of it. 

 
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timschochet said:
We’re the traditional home of the GOP. Both the Richard Nixon Library and the Ronald Reagan Library are within driving distance of my house. 
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Have you been to either? I’ve only visited Gerry Ford’s and Lincoln’s.

I’ve been to lots of Presidential homes: 5-6 in Ohio, Monticello, Mount Vernon, two Teddy Roosevelt home (brownstone in NYC & Sagamore Hill in Oyster Bay), and the Eisenhower Farm in Gettysburg.

 
rockaction said:
As long as this is a catch-all thread, I think the media has lost the conservatives as truth tellers when they tried to brand Goldwater as insane when he ran in '64. That and the Goldwater Rule. It's long been that conservatives -- even ones like myself -- are likely to treat media stories and would-be experts as full of ####. Now, when we need faith in the media and experts the most, they've completely lost people about basic facts that should be universal and a charlatan and would-be tyrant sits in the head office of the executive branch of government.

But it's the media's own petard from which they were hoisted. Goldwater is a shining (or dirty) example of it. 
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Well, 56 years is a long time ago. But on the other hand, Joe McCarthy was complaining about the “lying leftist” media at least 10 years before Goldwater ran. 

 
timschochet said:
Well, 56 years is a long time ago. But on the other hand, Joe McCarthy was complaining about the “lying leftist” media at least 10 years before Goldwater ran. 
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Joe McCarthy calling them the "lying leftist" media made them no less for that. It was the process and tyrannical impulses that were McCarthy's problem, not his assessment of the media.

 
timschochet said:
Yep. Newport Beach. Doesn’t surprise me, it’s Trump territory. But it’s a wonderful place to live. Unbelievably gorgeous in the summer which is pretty much all year. 
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It’s still California and should give you tremendous pause. When is the last time you’ve seen crowds like that? 

 
BobbyLayne said:
Have you been to either? I’ve only visited Gerry Ford’s and Lincoln’s.

I’ve been to lots of Presidential homes: 5-6 in Ohio, Monticello, Mount Vernon, two Teddy Roosevelt home (brownstone in NYC & Sagamore Hill in Oyster Bay), and the Eisenhower Farm in Gettysburg.
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Been to both. Nixon’s Library is fascinating if you’re into American history. I’m not an admirer of Nixon but he was a central character in most of the major events of the 2nd half of the 20th century: his years of importance, from around 1946 to 1974, could be considered our formative years as a modern nation. And it’s amazing how Nixon was either the star player of a major supporting player in literally everything that happened. 

The Reagan Library is a different experience. In that case I am an admirer and it’s a place of reverence and beauty. As you drive up the hill to the entrance every 100 feet there is a banner portrait  of every President from Washington to Trump. Everything is very pristine. You get to walk through Reagan’s Air Force One, and what strikes you is how small everything is (I’m sure the current one must be much larger.) 

Both are well worth the visit. 

 
Widbil83 said:
It’s still California and should give you tremendous pause. When is the last time you’ve seen crowds like that? 
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I don’t wager on politics anymore, but if you think Trump will win California, I d be forced to reconsider and give you whatever action you wanted. 

 
Trump’s fans are loud and excited and passionate and there’s a lot of them. And they’re extremely loyal and they’re a force to be reckoned with. Fortunately for the rest of us, there’s not enough of them to win a national election without help from independents and centrist Republicans, which Trump barely got last time around. This time around, that help is lacking. 

 
timschochet said:
Been to both. Nixon’s Library is fascinating if you’re into American history. I’m not an admirer of Nixon but he was a central character in most of the major events of the 2nd half of the 20th century: his years of importance, from around 1946 to 1974, could be considered our formative years as a modern nation. And it’s amazing how Nixon was either the star player of a major supporting player in literally everything that happened. 

The Reagan Library is a different experience. In that case I am an admirer and it’s a place of reverence and beauty. As you drive up the hill to the entrance every 100 feet there is a banner portrait  of every President from Washington to Trump. Everything is very pristine. You get to walk through Reagan’s Air Force One, and what strikes you is how small everything is (I’m sure the current one must be much larger.) 

Both are well worth the visit. 
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I hope to visit both one day.

The Lincoln Museum & PL is one of the best small history museums anywhere. They also have a lot of original source material, there’s never a shortage of Lincoln scholars, and that accounts for why they have fascinating presentations on C-SPAN regularly. Great YouTube channel.

Both the Roosevelt homes I mentioned are very interesting and worth a half day.

 
It’s time to call out Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, and other so-called progressive journalists. These dudes hate the Democrat establishment so much that they’re trying to help Trump win re-election. During the last 4 years they have consistently defended Trump on the Russia charges, agreeing with him that the whole thing is a hoax (and thus giving the conspiracy theorists added credibility.) Now they’re buying into the bogus Hunter Biden scandal. 
Taibbi is a talented writer but like his idol Noam Chomsky he hates Democrats and the establishment with far more passion than whatever he feels about Republicans, and this has warped him. Greenwald is Taibbi without the talent- he envisions himself an old fashioned muckraker, but his muck is sad and stale. 

 
timschochet said:
We’re the traditional home of the GOP. Both the Richard Nixon Library and the Ronald Reagan Library are within driving distance of my house. 
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Went to jr high and high school blocks from there, also currently run a venue close by so I’m in town once a week. 

 
Apparently the real President of the United States does not want this stimulus plan to happen, at least before the election. And by that I mean Mitch McConnell. 
Screw all those people out there suffering; it’s more important to get Amy Barrett confirmed. 

 
timschochet said:
Apparently the real President of the United States does not want this stimulus plan to happen, at least before the election. And by that I mean Mitch McConnell. 
Screw all those people out there suffering; it’s more important to get Amy Barrett confirmed. 
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Which is exactly what Nancy Pelosi said when OMG she grinned at an inopportune  time.

 
Looks like there will be no stimulus package until after the election, probably in January: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/21/politics/stimulus-package-timing-mitch-mcconnell/index.html

In no particular order: 

GUILTY- DONALD  TRUMP

Wanted a deal done before the election but not enough to ever pick up the phone and talk to Nancy Pelosi. Despite 4 years in office has no idea whatsoever how to make deals with Senators or move them to his side. He negotiates like a whiny 3 year old. Completely incompetent. 
 

GUILTY- NANCY PELOSI 

Despite Trump’s incompetence and McConnell’s opposition, she could have made enough concessions to get a deal done with Mnuchin. The pressure on McConnell and the Republican right would have then been enormous; I think enough would have defected to get the bill passed. But that would have been a victory for Trump and might have helped him and Senate Republicans, and Pelosi wouldn’t take that risk. She thinks a larger bill can be had in January and maybe, hopefully, she’s right. But in the meantime plenty of people are going to suffer and Pelosi basically sacrificed the public to the altar of Democratic politics. 
 

GUILTY- MITCH MCCONNELL 

Amy Coney Barrett represents his greatest dream and he will let nothing stand in the way. Or he is beholden to Republican ideology beyond reason or realization of emergency. Or he knows he’s going to lose the Senate and prefers a scorched earth policy. Or some combination of the 3. I really don’t know his motivation, actually, I just know that he is the one person in this unfortunate group that could decide to do this almost on his own, and he won’t. The American people need help and McConnell won’t give it. 
 

There are no heroes here, no good guys. This is a disaster of the first order and I blame them all.  

 
I don't think the Hunter biden story is "nothing to see here" at all. But, the beauty of it is we may get to see the truth (although i have no doubt that if Biden wins this will disappear completely). 

Actually, the way things are now, I would not be one bit surprised if this continues to be touted as a non-story and then if Biden wins, suddenly the media will dig it out and force Biden to step down so they can get Harris into the seat.  The whole thing is more sad than anything because there are no winners.  Only losers. 

 
First off if the story was true it would be reported by credible news sources not the NY Post. If you don’t believe this, I offer as evidence that the Hillary email scandal was first revealed by the New York Times. The Benghazi scandal was first reported by the Washington Post. This story on the other hand was so disreputable that Fox News refused it, and then the woman that wrote the story declined to put her name on it. Add that to the recent history of Rudy G over the last 4 years and that should tell you everything you need to know. 
But in addition even if the story was true the notion that it would bring down Biden is silly. Even if we had a House and Senate controlled by Republicans, which we won’t, there still wouldn’t be enough to remove Biden or force him to resign. After the last impeachment, in which you had direct evidence and testimony of wrongdoing, I’ve come to believe it’s impossible to remove a President by that route. It will never happen. 

 
This discussion, like so many others, goes back to the frustrating fact that conservatives don’t believe the mainstream media and instead choose to believe their own sources which are disreputable a lot of the time. How do we resolve this? 

 
timschochet said:
Looks like there will be no stimulus package until after the election, probably in January: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/21/politics/stimulus-package-timing-mitch-mcconnell/index.html

In no particular order: 

GUILTY- DONALD  TRUMP

Wanted a deal done before the election but not enough to ever pick up the phone and talk to Nancy Pelosi. Despite 4 years in office has no idea whatsoever how to make deals with Senators or move them to his side. He negotiates like a whiny 3 year old. Completely incompetent. 
 

GUILTY- NANCY PELOSI 

Despite Trump’s incompetence and McConnell’s opposition, she could have made enough concessions to get a deal done with Mnuchin. The pressure on McConnell and the Republican right would have then been enormous; I think enough would have defected to get the bill passed. But that would have been a victory for Trump and might have helped him and Senate Republicans, and Pelosi wouldn’t take that risk. She thinks a larger bill can be had in January and maybe, hopefully, she’s right. But in the meantime plenty of people are going to suffer and Pelosi basically sacrificed the public to the altar of Democratic politics. 
 

GUILTY- MITCH MCCONNELL 

Amy Coney Barrett represents his greatest dream and he will let nothing stand in the way. Or he is beholden to Republican ideology beyond reason or realization of emergency. Or he knows he’s going to lose the Senate and prefers a scorched earth policy. Or some combination of the 3. I really don’t know his motivation, actually, I just know that he is the one person in this unfortunate group that could decide to do this almost on his own, and he won’t. The American people need help and McConnell won’t give it. 
 

There are no heroes here, no good guys. This is a disaster of the first order and I blame them all.  
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You kind of paint this like blame to go around but not really. 

The president can (but is not obligated to) get involved until something comes across his desk. In any other administration, a Bill Clinton or George Bush could go on record that he want to see a deal done and then that would be that until it's time to sign on. He isn't supposed to be in the room hashing it out, lending his weight as POTUS to the issue. He is Executive, not legislative.   

The bolded is the story that shouldn't be buried in the lead. When you look at this as "WHO could have made this happen, it's Pelosi, not McConnell. IF Pelosi would have taken out the non-covid provisions and the parts that didn't directly put money in the people who are hurting's pockets, a deal would have been done. It really is that simple.  Take out the money wanted for marijuana research and the millions and millions to give to cities for non-related matters and just leave it as "x dollars for unemployment continuation, PPP, money for school resources for covid, direct money to households, etc," and it would have been done. But its sadly (very sadly) because covid has become a politicized weapon, in part because of what you said that is bolded, that real people out there in America are struggling.  

It takes both sides working together for these things and the system has failed America big time on this but it is hard to put an equal amount of blame on McConnell on this when, just today, he was literally saying "here's $500 Billion dollars. Every single penny goes to directly help people. We left all the side stuff off. this is just for the people. It's not exactly what you wanted but it's a start. Its something" And the democrats, to a person, said "up yours!  If we can't have exactly what we want out of this, then our citizens will get absolutely nothing." 

Its akin to saying "here's your new ambulance you need to get yourself to the hospital right now because you are having life-threatening chest pains and the guy looks at it and says "its not the color I want.  Keep it until you bring me an orange one."  

 
timschochet said:
This discussion, like so many others, goes back to the frustrating fact that conservatives don’t believe the mainstream media and instead choose to believe their own sources which are disreputable a lot of the time. How do we resolve this? 
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Bannon considered that to be a huge problem. He was always frustrated whenever they dug stuff up, it often never got out of the echo chamber.  
 

Oh, by the way...they were shopping the Hunter emails & pics in the Ukraine last year. Rudy took the bait.

https://time.com/5902557/hunter-biden-rudy-giuliani-ukraine/?amp=true

 
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timschochet said:
First off if the story was true it would be reported by credible news sources not the NY Post. If you don’t believe this, I offer as evidence that the Hillary email scandal was first revealed by the New York Times. The Benghazi scandal was first reported by the Washington ,Post. This story on the other hand was so disreputable that Fox News refused it, and then the woman that wrote the story declined to put her name on it. Add that to the recent history of Rudy G over the last 4 years and that should tell you everything you need to know. 
But in addition even if the story was true the notion that it would bring down Biden is silly. Even if we had a House and Senate controlled by Republicans, which we won’t, there still wouldn’t be enough to remove Biden or force him to resign. After the last impeachment, in which you had direct evidence and testimony of wrongdoing, I’ve come to believe it’s impossible to remove a President by that route. It will never happen. 
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You're living under an old assumption. You need to understand that true journalism is all but dead and nobody is being held accountable. Big Tech hell bent on wielding absolute power is a real. What we could say about media and journalism from 5, 10, 50 years ago is not the world today. Not going to bicker about it, just saying "consider it, if you will". 

And IF this story is true, we are either not talking about the same story or it absolutely is a major problem for a sitting president. Americans don't like corruption that threatens national security, potentially.  

We disagree. I'm not inclined to discuss it at this time because, quite honestly, its is, at this time, speculation that will never get a chance to be discussed unless someone compels an investigation to occur to see if it is to be looked at further. Its hard to have a discussion on a topic that one side's primary defense is to literally say it is not a topic to discuss. You can't talk about the curvature of the Earth until both sides agree there is a curvature. 

If it gets pushed away and refused to discuss, we won't discuss it. If it gets attention, we will. 

 
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Shutout said:
You kind of paint this like blame to go around but not really. 

The president can (but is not obligated to) get involved until something comes across his desk. In any other administration, a Bill Clinton or George Bush could go on record that he want to see a deal done and then that would be that until it's time to sign on. He isn't supposed to be in the room hashing it out, lending his weight as POTUS to the issue. He is Executive, not legislative.   

The bolded is the story that shouldn't be buried in the lead. When you look at this as "WHO could have made this happen, it's Pelosi, not McConnell. IF Pelosi would have taken out the non-covid provisions and the parts that didn't directly put money in the people who are hurting's pockets, a deal would have been done. It really is that simple.  Take out the money wanted for marijuana research and the millions and millions to give to cities for non-related matters and just leave it as "x dollars for unemployment continuation, PPP, money for school resources for covid, direct money to households, etc," and it would have been done. But its sadly (very sadly) because covid has become a politicized weapon, in part because of what you said that is bolded, that real people out there in America are struggling.  

It takes both sides working together for these things and the system has failed America big time on this but it is hard to put an equal amount of blame on McConnell on this when, just today, he was literally saying "here's $500 Billion dollars. Every single penny goes to directly help people. We left all the side stuff off. this is just for the people. It's not exactly what you wanted but it's a start. Its something" And the democrats, to a person, said "up yours!  If we can't have exactly what we want out of this, then our citizens will get absolutely nothing." 

Its akin to saying "here's your new ambulance you need to get yourself to the hospital right now because you are having life-threatening chest pains and the guy looks at it and says "its not the color I want.  Keep it until you bring me an orange one."  
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You seem like a very intelligent guy and I enjoy conversing with you. But I couldn’t disagree with you more, not so much on this issue but on nearly every issue. 
On this issue all I will note is that you can’t seem to bring yourself to place any blame on Trump or McConnell. In order to believe that, you need to buy into the Republican line that far too much of the money the Democrats are insisting on has nothing to do with Covid. That simply isn’t true. 
I stand by what I wrote. I’m not typically a “both sides” kind of guy and in general I strongly admire Pelosi as she saved this nation with TARP. But in this case I blame all three of them. 

 
Shutout said:
You're living under an old assumption. You need to understand that true journalism is all but dead and nobody is being held accountable. Big Tech hell bent on wielding absolute power is a real. What we could say about media and journalism from 5, 10, 50 years ago is not the world today. Not going to bicker about it, just saying "consider it, if you will". 

And IF this story is true, we are either not talking about the same story or it absolutely is a major problem for a sitting president. Americans don't like corruption that threatens national security, potentially.  

We disagree. I'm not inclined to discuss it at this time because, quite honestly, its is, at this time, speculation that will never get a chance to be discussed unless someone compels an investigation to occur to see if it is to be looked at further. Its hard to have a discussion on a topic that one side's primary defense is to literally say it is not a topic to discuss. You can't talk about the curvature of the Earth until both sides agree there is a curvature. 

If it gets pushed away and refused to discuss, we won't discuss it. If it gets attention, we will. 
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True journalism isn’t dead; quite the opposite. The New York Times and Washington Post have both had their best moments during the Trump years since the early 1970s. They’ve been magnificent. 

 
Shutout said:
And IF this story is true, we are either not talking about the same story or it absolutely is a major problem for a sitting president. Americans don't like corruption that threatens national security, potentially.  
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You're sort of correct here, which is why Biden is going to win. Trump's general corruptivity and narcissism has been bad for national security. He puts his own interests ahead of the security of the country, and The People are tired of the act.

If Joe Biden made some money while he was a private citizen, the people aren't going to care.

 
This guy is so awesome: 

https://statespoll.com/tagged/Election 2020

Found him on a conservative forum; they’re all referring to him as some kind of expert. What he does is take most of the polls out there and then “adjusts” them. His “adjustment” is to add around 7-10 points to Trump’s side. Maybe this is for the “hidden Trump voter”. Or maybe he has some other pseudo- scientific explanation. He never explains the reason for his adjustments but his results have Trump basically winning every battleground state. 

 
timschochet said:
This discussion, like so many others, goes back to the frustrating fact that conservatives don’t believe the mainstream media and instead choose to believe their own sources which are disreputable a lot of the time. How do we resolve this? 
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How many times do they have to get caught fabricating "news" before you understand why people don't trust them?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
How many times do they have to get caught fabricating "news" before you understand why people don't trust them?
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Probably one. One instance of a serious, deliberate fabrication for political purposes would do it. And it would have to be a coordinated effort from a reputable, respectable source, not the work of a single journalist who was subsequently fired. 
If you have an example of that, I would concede your point. Do you? 

 
Joe Summer said:
You're sort of correct here, which is why Biden is going to win. Trump's general corruptivity and narcissism has been bad for national security. He puts his own interests ahead of the security of the country, and The People are tired of the act.

If Joe Biden made some money while he was a private citizen, the people aren't going to care.
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I suppose that is why he went into his daily presser every single day and begged for the state governors in some states to allow him to send help for their riots and unrest.

I guess that is why he is speaking to anyone who will ever listen to him about the nations that pose a significant threat to national security.

I suppose it also explains why he authorized the removal of a couple of terrorists that Joe Biden said 10 years ago he wasn't in favor of moving on.

I am sure it explains why The president was nominated for THREE Nobel peace prizes as a result of brokering three peace accords in the Middle East; something that hasn't been done in almost 30 years and was touted by the previous administration as 'not possible'.

You don't have to look any further than tonight's debate to see the real truth about your statement. The 3rd debate is typically earmarked for foreign diplomacy and policy and this time...no...let's talk about environmental plans...for a 2nd time...cause it ranks 7th in topics Americans poll as important right now.  They won't even entertain having it as a discussion because it favors the President.  

 
Shutout said:
I suppose that is why he went into his daily presser every single day and begged for the state governors in some states to allow him to send help for their riots and unrest.

I guess that is why he is speaking to anyone who will ever listen to him about the nations that pose a significant threat to national security.

I suppose it also explains why he authorized the removal of a couple of terrorists that Joe Biden said 10 years ago he wasn't in favor of moving on.

I am sure it explains why The president was nominated for THREE Nobel peace prizes as a result of brokering three peace accords in the Middle East; something that hasn't been done in almost 30 years and was touted by the previous administration as 'not possible'.

You don't have to look any further than tonight's debate to see the real truth about your statement. The 3rd debate is typically earmarked for foreign diplomacy and policy and this time...no...let's talk about environmental plans...for a 2nd time...cause it ranks 7th in topics Americans poll as important right now.  They won't even entertain having it as a discussion because it favors the President.  
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Sorry but this post is filled with falsehoods and misrepresentations: 

1. The reason that foreign policy won’t be discussed tonight is because Trump refused to attend the second debate, which pushed topics forward. 
2. Climate change isn’t being discussed for a second time. Whatever time is spent on it tonight will be the first time ever in a Presidential debate (at least, to the best of my knowledge, in over 3 cycles) and its long overdue. It’s the central issue of our times. 
3. Trump’s desire to send in federal troops to crack down on what has been primarily peaceful protests (albeit with some violence) would have been disastrous for both the nation and the states involved, as the governors who rejected him correctly realized. 
4. Trump has bizarrely sucked up to the nations that have posed the biggest threat to our security: Russia, China, North Korea. His behavior has been shameful and pathetic. 
5. None of the “peace accords” between the Netanyahu government and allies of Saudi Arabia are going to do anything to help peace in the Middle East. By siding with Likud Trump has seriously damaged long term prospects for peace. He has been a disaster for Israel, as has his ally Netanyahu. 
 

 
Sneegor said:
I am choosing to wait to see how it plays out.  It could very well be nothing but Joe has already been caught lying about it so it appears like he is hiding something.
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Genuine question....what exactly is left to play out?  We know that Hunter Biden was investigated and his relationships in Ukraine investigated as well.  We know the investigation yielded nothing both here in the US and from the other international agencies who were investigating.  We also know our intelligence agencies warned this administration over a year ago that it was believed that an "October surprise" was in the works for 2020 being orchestrated by outside actors which involved Hunter and/or Joe Biden.

We've also established that lying isn't an issue nor is hiding things.  I guess I just don't understand what's left to "wait and see" about :shrug:  

 
timschochet said:
You seem like a very intelligent guy and I enjoy conversing with you. But I couldn’t disagree with you more, not so much on this issue but on nearly every issue. 
On this issue all I will note is that you can’t seem to bring yourself to place any blame on Trump or McConnell. In order to believe that, you need to buy into the Republican line that far too much of the money the Democrats are insisting on has nothing to do with Covid. That simply isn’t true. 
I stand by what I wrote. I’m not typically a “both sides” kind of guy and in general I strongly admire Pelosi as she saved this nation with TARP. But in this case I blame all three of them. 
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It is ok to disagree. We have strongly opposed ideology on this matter. Ideally, we could each say we consider the other side and maybe even learn something from it. I don't think either one of us is looking to convert the other :). 

It is not that I would not place blame on anyone but I don't look at a broken car and say "it won't run, its the drivers fault who wrecked it, the mechanic for not repairing it AND the part store for not delivering the part." Instead, I look at it and say it's the driver's fault for wrecking it because, if not for the driver, the other two wouldn't be called upon. 

So I look at things from a perspective of root cause. 

This is a Judgment of Solomon case. One side is willing to accept less than what they want in order to help the people right now. the others are willing to say "if i can't have exactly what I want in its entirety, then it can all suffer".  That's really hard to get behind if you are unbiased because if it were not for one side and one side only saying no based on political agenda, there would be a half trillion dollar relief package waiting to be signed that directly benefited extra unemployment each week, PPP for businesses, and schools.  Instead, there is nothing.  

There is a pretty wise saying in real estate that says always give the other side the last chance to say no, meaning don't close the door and always be wiling to try to compromise. But in this case, its take it or leave it from the democrats and has been this way for months.  Half a trillion dollars isn't good enough. Not good enough to take and keep talking. No, it has to be more than 4 times that much and has to include things that don't help people keep their lights on and food on the table right now...but if we can't get money for undocumented workers, money for marijuana research, money for key democratic cities with deficits, then ALL the Americans in need have to go without. 

Sometimes you have to ask "what is holding this up?" and sometimes the answer is as simple as "this one side" and in this case it is as you mentioned already, Pelosi doesn't want to look bad and make Trump look good and she is willing to sacrifice people for the sakes of nothing but politics and posturing because IF the issue WAS the issue and the only thing being cared about WAS the thing that should be the only thing cared about in this case (helping people keep their homes, food, etc), then any reasonable person would say "something is a better than nothing. It is a start.But the reality is simply it is political and it is pretty clear Pelosi knows that if you take away just the things that directly help people right now, the other things can't possibly succeed standing on their own and that says a lot about them.    

 
timschochet said:
I don’t wager on politics anymore, but if you think Trump will win California, I d be forced to reconsider and give you whatever action you wanted. 
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I have also given up wagering with Democrats after last elections welching. Maybe not California but a win (unless there is Al Franken style cars packed with mail in ballots after the election for Biden). We could do a picture swap, I’ll put up the Biden 40 year old virgin pic and you do the Trump Rocky for 6 months. 

 
Widbil83 said:
I have also given up wagering with Democrats after last elections welching. Maybe not California but a win (unless there is Al Franken style cars packed with mail in ballots after the election for Biden). We could do a picture swap, I’ll put up the Biden 40 year old virgin pic and you do the Trump Rocky for 6 months. 
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I love the “Maybe not California”. That made me chuckle. Who’s going to win the Super Bowl this year? Maybe not the Jets...

 
timschochet said:
Probably one. One instance of a serious, deliberate fabrication for political purposes would do it. And it would have to be a coordinated effort from a reputable, respectable source, not the work of a single journalist who was subsequently fired. 
If you have an example of that, I would concede your point. Do you? 
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Off the top of my head, CBS caught using pictures of Italy and claiming it was NY when trying to scare people about the CoronaVirus

 
Shutout said:
We have strongly opposed ideology on this matter. 
Click to expand...
Stop right there. We don’t. I’ve read many of your economic arguments, including a recent post you wrote on taxation in the Trump 2020 thread, and I agreed with a lot of it. In terms of ideology we’re not all that apart. 
We’re far apart on our interpretation of facts and evidence. Which again goes back to the issue that we’re not getting our news from the same sources. For instance, although I blame Pelosi for not negotiating more it’s simply false to imply as you have thats she’s offering a take it or leave it approach. The original Democratic proposal was 3 trillion. I thought it should have been more. Then it was cut to 2.5 Then 2.2. Now they are discussing 1.8. McConnell said no, no, no and then offered 500 billion. You can’t argue with any honesty that it’s the Democrats who are refusing to make any concessions. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Off the top of my head, CBS caught using pictures of Italy and claiming it was NY when trying to scare people about the CoronaVirus
Click to expand...
Yes they did. They said it was an error, which was made twice: 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cbs-news-italian-hospital/

First, there’s no evidence it was deliberate. Second, scaring people about Covid is certainly sensational (and also quite reasonable) but it’s not necessarily political. In fact it shouldn’t be at all. 

 
timschochet said:
Sorry but this post is filled with falsehoods and misrepresentations: 

1. The reason that foreign policy won’t be discussed tonight is because Trump refused to attend the second debate, which pushed topics forward. 
2. Climate change isn’t being discussed for a second time. Whatever time is spent on it tonight will be the first time ever in a Presidential debate (at least, to the best of my knowledge, in over 3 cycles) and its long overdue. It’s the central issue of our times. 
3. Trump’s desire to send in federal troops to crack down on what has been primarily peaceful protests (albeit with some violence) would have been disastrous for both the nation and the states involved, as the governors who rejected him correctly realized. 
4. Trump has bizarrely sucked up to the nations that have posed the biggest threat to our security: Russia, China, North Korea. His behavior has been shameful and pathetic. 
5. None of the “peace accords” between the Netanyahu government and allies of Saudi Arabia are going to do anything to help peace in the Middle East. By siding with Likud Trump has seriously damaged long term prospects for peace. He has been a disaster for Israel, as has his ally Netanyahu. 
 
Click to expand...


Tim - you know more about this than me. I thought that, while low hanging fruit, these peace accords were generally good news. That's not true? Why?

 
timschochet said:
This discussion, like so many others, goes back to the frustrating fact that conservatives don’t believe the mainstream media and instead choose to believe their own sources which are disreputable a lot of the time. How do we resolve this? 
Click to expand...
So you think those emails are forgeries and the bidens have just decided to stay quiet about that, you know just cuz? 

I think the story is mostly a nothingburger, but I think every one of those emails is real. 

The backstory for how they were obtained seems bogus, but since when has the media cared about that in recent times? 

 
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