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Woodward's new Trump book "Rage" (1 Viewer)

Mattis told Coats, “The president has no moral compass,” to which the director of national intelligence replied, “True. To him, a lie is not a lie. It’s just what he thinks. He doesn’t know the difference between the truth and a lie.”

-from "Rage"

I am starting to sense a pattern.

 
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Was this before or after masks were roundly criticized as useless against the virus by our top medical experts during the height of panic?

Right or wrong, some people took that line and went about their lives. The minute they walked that back and started mandating their use is where the division and confusion started on this topic. Not on political lines. (It became political in the months to follow, for sure)
After.

The thinking on masks changed once time passed and more information came in and evidence showed otherwise. 

There should not have been any confusion. Other countries didn't seem confused when new information suggested widespread mask use. Nor was there really any confusion here except for those that decided not to trust the medical community and their recommendations. And there was one political party that seemed to go against that medical advice and tried to discredit it, using the idea that "they were wrong before so why listen now" when in fact that's how science actually works: you adjust in light of new information. 

 
Yikes, I know there was disdain from Mattis, but this seems to be possibly implying something?

Mattis quietly went to Washington National Cathedral to pray about his concern for the nation's fate under Trump's command and, according to Woodward, told Coats, "There may come a time when we have to take collective action" since Trump is "dangerous. He's unfit."

In a separate conversation recounted by Woodward, Mattis told Coats, "The president has no moral compass," to which the director of national intelligence replied, "True. To him, a lie is not a lie. It's just what he thinks. He doesn't know the difference between the truth and a lie."

 
And - just for good measure - if you were willing to give Trump a pass on downplaying the covid threat, the thing that should really give you pause, he wasn't smart enough to keep that to himself when talking to Bob Woodward, who was recording the conversation.
I'm sure he's been an absolute goldmine for Putin, Xi, Erdogan etc. I bet they compare notes. 

 
After.

The thinking on masks changed once time passed and more information came in and evidence showed otherwise. 

There should not have been any confusion. Other countries didn't seem confused when new information suggested widespread mask use. Nor was there really any confusion here except for those that decided not to trust the medical community and their recommendations. And there was one political party that seemed to go against that medical advice and tried to discredit it, using the idea that "they were wrong before so why listen now" when in fact that's how science actually works: you adjust in light of new information. 
Yeah, except it appears that it wasn't new information to them. As we're finding out via this Trump leak. They all knew it was airborne spread and that masks would help. They just didn't want people trampling each other to get them, so they lied to us.

If you're putting body counts on Trump's head, the medical professionals who lied to the nation probably can share in some of that blame as well.

 
Yeah, except it appears that it wasn't new information to them. As we're finding out via this Trump leak. They all knew it was airborne spread and that masks would help. They just didn't want people trampling each other to get them, so they lied to us.

If you're putting body counts on Trump's head, the medical professionals who lied to the nation probably can share in some of that blame as well.
The difference is that those same medical professionals were ALSO telling people to stay at home as much as possible.

Trump? Well, there's this tweet from March 9th -- Right after he spoke to Woodward:

@realDonaldTrump

So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!

 
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After.

The thinking on masks changed once time passed and more information came in and evidence showed otherwise. 

There should not have been any confusion. Other countries didn't seem confused when new information suggested widespread mask use. Nor was there really any confusion here except for those that decided not to trust the medical community and their recommendations. And there was one political party that seemed to go against that medical advice and tried to discredit it, using the idea that "they were wrong before so why listen now" when in fact that's how science actually works: you adjust in light of new information. 
Yeah, except it appears that it wasn't new information to them. As we're finding out via this Trump leak. They all knew it was airborne spread and that masks would help. They just didn't want people trampling each other to get them, so they lied to us.

If you're putting body counts on Trump's head, the medical professionals who lied to the nation probably can share in some of that blame as well.
Thanks for sharing this fact.  Where can I corroborate this?

 
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Yeah, except it appears that it wasn't new information to them. As we're finding out via this Trump leak. They all knew it was airborne spread and that masks would help. They just didn't want people trampling each other to get them, so they lied to us.

If you're putting body counts on Trump's head, the medical professionals who lied to the nation probably can share in some of that blame as well.
Yes, sure.  Were this a CDC/FDA handling of the Covid-19 Pandemic thread I would be trashing them...I definitely did the same in the FFA thread on Covid back in March and April.

This is Trump's handling of Covid thread and thus my ire.  He did a terrible job and this new information, while not surprising given who he has shown us to be, is incredibly frustrating.

 
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The difference is that those same medical professionals were ALSO telling people to stay at home as much as possible.

Trump? Well, there's this tweet from March 9th -- Right after he spoke to Woodward:

@realDonaldTrump

So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!
I mean, you can justify it however you want. It appears multiple parties intentionally deceived the public. And I was speaking specifically to the distrust some people have in the national guidance. I think Trump is a goober. (Just to clear that up if necessary)

 
Thanks for sharing this fact.  Where can I corroborate this?
That's commentary. In the future, I'll qualify with "in my opinion" so that you can keep up.

Appreciate your response. (That was sarcasm)

 
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Thanks for sharing this fact.  Where can I corroborate this?
Personally - I think this makes sense.

But, it also does not excuse subsequent behavior

I think at the outset, there was a known national shortage of PPE.

 A run on PPE, instead of toilet paper, would have put healthcare providers more at risk.

What should have happened is the use of the presidency to get masks, and other things, manufactured on a scale to ensure that everyone had enough - hell, just asking people to step up and make masks for friends and neighbors probably would have done the trick - given how many were eventually produced locally.

But, we lacked a plan.  That alone was a colossal failure of leadership.  Whatever you like about Trump, there is no denying that he is a very poor leader.

 
Thanks for sharing this fact.  Where can I corroborate this?
That's commentary. In the future, I'll qualify with "in my opinion" so that you can keep up.

Appreciate your response. (That was sarcasm)
Yes - it would be incredibly helpful for folks to differentiate between fact and opinion (That was not sarcasm)

 
Yeah, except it appears that it wasn't new information to them. As we're finding out via this Trump leak. They all knew it was airborne spread and that masks would help. They just didn't want people trampling each other to get them, so they lied to us.

If you're putting body counts on Trump's head, the medical professionals who lied to the nation probably can share in some of that blame as well.
Oh, you mean the medical professionals who were beholden to their boss and could be fired for not relaying Trump's narrative? Those professionals?

 
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That's commentary. In the future, I'll qualify with "in my opinion" so that you can keep up.

Appreciate your response. (That was sarcasm)
Well, you were close. Kayleigh says it was because they didn't want people rushing to the grocery stores and buying all the food. Of course, that begs the question of how much toilet paper she bought in February.

 
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Personally - I think this makes sense.

But, it also does not excuse subsequent behavior

I think at the outset, there was a known national shortage of PPE.

 A run on PPE, instead of toilet paper, would have put healthcare providers more at risk.

What should have happened is the use of the presidency to get masks, and other things, manufactured on a scale to ensure that everyone had enough - hell, just asking people to step up and make masks for friends and neighbors probably would have done the trick - given how many were eventually produced locally.

But, we lacked a plan.  That alone was a colossal failure of leadership.  Whatever you like about Trump, there is no denying that he is a very poor leader.
I think we're mostly on the same page here. Trump failed in that area, for sure.

 
Oh, you mean the medical professionals who were beholden to their boss and could be fired for not relaying Trump's narrative? Those professionals?
So you'd lie to the nation-- knowing it could kill tens of thousands of people-- to keep your job? Because that's kinda what you're trying to justify for these folks. Not sure I'm ready to draw that line in the sand, personally.

 
Oh, you mean the medical professionals who were beholden to their boss and could be fired for not relaying Trump's narrative? Those professionals?
So you'd lie to the nation-- knowing it could kill tens of thousands of people-- to keep your job? Because that's kinda what you're trying to justify for these folks. Not sure I'm ready to draw that line in the sand, personally.
You mean like Trump lied to the entire nation downplaying the virus?

 
You mean like Trump lied to the entire nation downplaying the virus?
Correct. Did I refute that somewhere?

This conversation stems from how people grew to believe masks were ineffective and then failed to trust medical professionals when they tried to tell them otherwise. The medical professionals were not being honest then-- some people question why they can be assured they are being honest now. It may be a bad stance to take, but I can see how people got there.

 
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Oh, you mean the medical professionals who were beholden to their boss and could be fired for not relaying Trump's narrative? Those professionals?
So you'd lie to the nation-- knowing it could kill tens of thousands of people-- to keep your job? Because that's kinda what you're trying to justify for these folks. Not sure I'm ready to draw that line in the sand, personally.
I don't think they knew in March that the death count would eventually get so high.

I think people like the Surgeon General convinced themselves that if they downplayed masks while encouraging handwashing and social distancing, then the virus would magically "go away" just like the President told him it would.

 
Fauci on foxN right now downplaying Woodward report and did agree the president wanted to downplay Covid but doesn’t see any issues with his messaging as the task force gave all the day updates honestly based on what they were seeing.

 
I mean, you can justify it however you want. It appears multiple parties intentionally deceived the public. And I was speaking specifically to the distrust some people have in the national guidance. I think Trump is a goober. (Just to clear that up if necessary)
Always downplaying him.  "just a goober" "he is what he is" "that's just who he is" "he's just like my big dumb uncle"  BUT....

never any consequences. 

 
Always downplaying him.  "just a goober" "he is what he is" "that's just who he is" "he's just like my big dumb uncle"  BUT....

never any consequences. 
I'm sorry, what exactly did you want me to do? I didn't vote for him in 2016 and won't vote for him in 2020. But he's our reality.

 
I think the Federal Government did a worse job than the Footballguys Free For All in regards to keeping the public informed about the dangers/concerns of COVID in the early days.  If BigLeagueChew, Shader,[icon] and company were able to do it...I don't see how the Trump Admin couldn't.  

 
I don't think they knew in March that the death count would eventually get so high.

I think people like the Surgeon General convinced themselves that if they downplayed masks while encouraging handwashing and social distancing, then the virus would magically "go away" just like the President told him it would.
I thought WHO also was inconsistent with mask recommendations and then we started seeing studies by universities on how effective different masks were. I think they were fairly consistent masks could help minimize you spreading the virus but not very effective in keeping you froom getting the virus.. 

 
Fauci on foxN right now downplaying Woodward report and did agree the president wanted to downplay Covid but doesn’t see any issues with his messaging as the task force gave all the day updates honestly based on what they were seeing.
So is Fauci a "good guy" again to be trusted, or not? Hard to keep track.

Hint. Always listen to Fauci. Yes, Fauci was always being honest.

More than can be said for the POTUS, and now that's on tape. 

 
Its funny, in a not so funny way, but the more I listen to clips from the Woodward tapes, the more I think Trump simply dunked on himself here.

What I have observed from Trump these last 3+ years, is that he like to overplay his own importance.  It almost sounds like he was trying to play up the virus, in a look-at-how-well-I-am-handling-this-raging-death-virus kind of way, never really expecting that the virus would still be out of control several months later.

 
Thanks for sharing this fact.  Where can I corroborate this?
Personally - I think this makes sense.

But, it also does not excuse subsequent behavior

I think at the outset, there was a known national shortage of PPE.

 A run on PPE, instead of toilet paper, would have put healthcare providers more at risk.

What should have happened is the use of the presidency to get masks, and other things, manufactured on a scale to ensure that everyone had enough - hell, just asking people to step up and make masks for friends and neighbors probably would have done the trick - given how many were eventually produced locally.

But, we lacked a plan.  That alone was a colossal failure of leadership.  Whatever you like about Trump, there is no denying that he is a very poor leader.
We lacked a plan and STILL lack a plan.  You would have to think the Confederacy won the Civil War.

 
Shame on WAPO and Woodward if this is true. Are they concerned with how dangerous COVID is or just another daily accusation against Trump, since the story on the fallen soldiers last week didn’t seem to hold any water, or just trying to sell a book. I have no problem with them reporting verifiable truths.
Excellent point.  Initially I was going to be upset that our president would carelessly downplay a serious situation that has cost over 190,000 American lives, but the real enemy is the reporter who knew about this months ago.  Let's focus on that instead.  

 
Fauci on foxN right now downplaying Woodward report and did agree the president wanted to downplay Covid but doesn’t see any issues with his messaging as the task force gave all the day updates honestly based on what they were seeing.
Fauci is wrong. The President sets the tone. If he'd've been serious and pushed responsibility and masks from the beginning, we would be in a lot better position. And have WAY fewer people who refuse to wear masks.

Hell, Trump is STILL hosting crowded events without masks.

 
Excellent point.  Initially I was going to be upset that our president would carelessly downplay a serious situation that has cost over 190,000 American lives, but the real enemy is the reporter who knew about this months ago.  Let's focus on that instead.  
I mean, I think there's enough room to acknowledge it's disingenuous at best. This isn't the kind of information you hold on to for a September book release.

 
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I mean, I think there's enough room to acknowledge it's disingenuous at best. This isn't the kind of information you hold on to for a September book release.
I feel like this is always a funny thing that happens in these discussions. The "well what about this".  Its like we kind of need a Dutch term or something that encompasses the following: 

I have a pie (mmm pie) baked with all my anger.  In this issue, I'm going to cut a small 2 cm width slice and hand it to Bob Woodward.  I'm then going to take the rest of that big honkin' anger pie (all 95+% of the total of it) and smash it in Trump's mug.

 
I mean, I think there's enough room to acknowledge it's disingenuous at best. This isn't the kind of information you hold on to for a September book release.
Right again.  Let's focus on that and that alone.  Dear leader deserves no blame here.  It's on the reporter.  I really don't want to have to acknowledge any wrongdoing by Trump here.  It's best to focus on the messenger.  

 
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So is Fauci a "good guy" again to be trusted, or not? Hard to keep track.

Hint. Always listen to Fauci. Yes, Fauci was always being honest.
Fauci downplayed masks in February and later admitted that it was a deliberate ploy to help medical professionals secure enough PPE.

Now, you can argue about whether that was the right call....but I don't think it falls under the description of "always being honest."

 
I feel like this is always a funny thing that happens in these discussions. The "well what about this".  Its like we kind of need a Dutch term or something that encompasses the following: 

I have a pie (mmm pie) baked with all my anger.  In this issue, I'm going to cut a small 2 cm width slice and hand it to Bob Woodward.  I'm then going to take the rest of that big honkin' anger pie (all 95+% of the total of it) and smash it in Trump's mug.
That's understandable. Trump's role in this is well-established.

I just hope I'd do the right thing if I had information that could potentially save tens of thousands of lives. I mean this is either a big deal or it isn't, right?

 
Fauci on foxN right now downplaying Woodward report and did agree the president wanted to downplay Covid but doesn’t see any issues with his messaging as the task force gave all the day updates honestly based on what they were seeing.
Who are you going to believe:

A.  Fauci 

or

B. President Trump

Think carefully here.

 
I'm telling you what I want to do to maintain my satisfaction with Trump's handling of Covid.  I will focus my attention to Woodward here.
To clarify, if you intentionally withheld information that I believed could have saved tens of thousands of lives so that you could cash in on a book at the optimal time, I'd think you were a pretty crummy guy too. Irrespective of what I thought about Trump and his level of blame.

 
I mean, I think there's enough room to acknowledge it's disingenuous at best. This isn't the kind of information you hold on to for a September book release.
None if Trump’s followers believe reporters because Trump told them not to believe reporters.   

 
To clarify, if you intentionally withheld information that I believed could have saved tens of thousands of lives so that you could cash in on a book at the optimal time, I'd think you were a pretty crummy guy too. Irrespective of what I thought about Trump and his level of blame.
Well, I'm not sure Trump deserves any blame here.  How about you?

 
To clarify, if you intentionally withheld information that I believed could have saved tens of thousands of lives so that you could cash in on a book at the optimal time, I'd think you were a pretty crummy guy too. Irrespective of what I thought about Trump and his level of blame.
When you're interviewing a guy who has told thousands of lies, why should you assume that he's suddenly telling the truth when he says "This is deadly"?

Also, when you're interviewing a guy who has made a career out of attacking the media and screaming "Fake News!," why should you assume that anything would change if you spoke up?

 

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