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​ 🐘 ​​ 🐴 ​2020 Presidential Debates thread - 2nd Debate October 15


Sinn Fein

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18 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Well, from a practical standpoint - I think Trump pretty clearly lost the debate.

 

Trump supporters will no doubt have been thrilled with his performance, and in their minds, Trump was the easy winner.

But, debates exist to sway other voters toward your side.  And, in that regard, its hard it imagine any undecided voter thinking "Yes, I want more of that, please!"

 

I don't know that Biden did much to sway voters either - he was certainly more professional and civil.  But, Biden is operating from a position of strength, he needs to not lose support.  And, nothing that happened last night will cause Biden to lose support.

 

America was the clear loser last night, along with civility and decorum.  We can't even have a grown up conversation on issues and policies.  I am hopeful that tone changes in a little over a month.

On who “won” - I don’t think it’s clear that Trump lost when looking at Independents - I don’t think it’s clear he won either.  If anything it’s a push most likely.  Being the guy who is behind - that’s not what he wanted.  Trump had a couple of horrible moments and Biden did have several moments where he fumbled his words and thoughts.  I think the “winner” would be based on what someone is looking for - if you are looking for civility and a return to normal, Joe is your guy.  I think Trump scored some points with the law and order comments but his debate style far overshadowed anything he tried to do - it was surreal to watch.

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3 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

On who “won” - I don’t think it’s clear that Trump lost when looking at Independents - I don’t think it’s clear he won either.  If anything it’s a push most likely.  Being the guy who is behind - that’s not what he wanted.  Trump had a couple of horrible moments and Biden did have several moments where he fumbled his words and thoughts.  I think the “winner” would be based on what someone is looking for - if you are looking for civility and a return to normal, Joe is your guy.  I think Trump scored some points with the law and order comments but his debate style far overshadowed anything he tried to do - it was surreal to watch.

Dont take this as me knocking you, I dont want to come across like that but there is no way any rational person could have watched the entire debate last night and actually think Trump "won".   I mean its inconceivable to fathom

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10 minutes ago, pantherclub said:

Dont take this as me knocking you, I dont want to come across like that but there is no way any rational person could have watched the entire debate last night and actually think Trump "won".   I mean its inconceivable to fathom

I’m basing my comment on our unfortunate reality.  CNN had like 15 undecideds and i think 12 said nobody won, 2 said Trump and 1 said Biden.

I don’t think Trump won - but that’s me.  I value things like competency and civility.  I don’t think the average Independent has those top of mind when making a choice or they would already be decided.

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Just now, AAABatteries said:

I’m basing my comment on our unfortunate reality.  CNN has like 15 undecideds and like 12 said nobody won, 2 said Trump and 1 said Biden.

I don’t think Trump won - but that’s me.  I value things like competency and civility.  I don’t think the average Independent has those top of mind when making a choice or they would already be decided.

Civility?  He told the President to shut up and called him a clown.  People only remember the sound bites and those are the two everyone is seeing and hearing this morning.  

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Trump was scowling most of the night, while Biden was smiling. Biden also looked into the TV camera and spoke to the TV audience at times, while Trump was facing away from the TV camera most of the night. Not to mention the endless interruptions by Trump. Any debate coach wanna chime in? 

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38 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

It was during the COVID part of the debate.    Trump started by saying he doesn’t agree with his own experts on the timing of the vaccine as he talked to the companies himself.  So yeah, Biden was the one politicizing vaccines and people on the right are disgusted by it.  Truly horrible that somebody would agree with experts and let the vaccine have time to be vetted.

Lol.  I guess I started checking out at this point, because that vaguely sounds familiar.  

When tony posted that, in my head I was wondering if it was something to do with giving vaccines time to be fully worked out like they should be.  Is the claim that this is making the vaccine political b/c it comes of as being against one this year just because Trump wants it this year?

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2 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I’m basing my comment on our unfortunate reality.  CNN had like 15 undecideds and i think 12 said nobody won, 2 said Trump and 1 said Biden.

I don’t think Trump won - but that’s me.  I value things like competency and civility.  I don’t think the average Independent has those top of mind when making a choice or they would already be decided.

Good point about undecideds.

I guess one might argue Biden’s mental acuity needed clarification, but I’ll take the worst case of pleasantly demented versus psychotic any day.

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1 minute ago, SoBeDad said:

Trump was scowling most of the night, while Biden was smiling. Biden also looked into the TV camera and spoke to the TV audience at times, while Trump was facing away from the TV camera most of the night. Not to mention the endless interruptions by Trump. Any debate coach wanna chime in? 

I thought that was noticeable, as well as what I mentioned last night about Biden talking in to the camera and directly to Americans.  Whether those are good debate tactics I’m not sure.  I will say there was a stark difference between the two and a stark difference between Hillary and Joe - she never came across as likeable and he does.

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7 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

Civility?  He told the President to shut up and called him a clown.  People only remember the sound bites and those are the two everyone is seeing and hearing this morning.  

When your point is "he crawled down into the mud with my guy" it should give you pause. 

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Lol.  I guess I started checking out at this point, because that vaguely sounds familiar.  

When tony posted that, in my head I was wondering if it was something to do with giving vaccines time to be fully worked out like they should be.  Is the claim that this is making the vaccine political b/c it comes of as being against one this year just because Trump wants it this year?

I think it’s fairly simple - all of us want a vaccine, everybody hates both the obvious issues with COVID but even more so the impact of COVID because it pretty much impacts all of us.  It’s decimated the economy and many businesses.  At this point everyone wants a safe vaccine TODAY (well, except for anarchists and nutty anti-vaxxers).

The timing of it is where folks are trying to turn it political - Trump needs it before the election which at this point is basically impossible.  Many don’t want Trump to get “credit” for the vaccine and use it as a selling point to vote for him.

From there it’s just twisted and politicized. 

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13 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

Civility?  He told the President to shut up and called him a clown.  People only remember the sound bites and those are the two everyone is seeing and hearing this morning.  

What would you do if you were Biden? Just stand there and take the abuse?

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10 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

Good point about undecideds.

I guess one might argue Biden’s mental acuity needed clarification, but I’ll take the worst case of pleasantly demented versus psychotic any day.

Somebody else pointed it out last night but Trump actually missed an opportunity to let Biden display the mental acuity part more.  His constant talking over him just made it distracting across the board.  Even a seasoned veteran like Wallace seemed flustered and all over the place and nobody would accuse him of being mentally deficient.

And quick aside - I said before the debate that if it was a good debate that you could thank Wallace for that.  Well, it wasn’t a good debate - it was horrible.  But I completely disagree with folks from both sides blaming Wallace for what we saw.  I dare anybody to have sat in that moderator chair and kept things under control.  I think he asked some great questions of both candidates and did as best he could to keep them to the ground rules.  

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53 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

America was the clear loser last night, along with civility and decorum.  We can't even have a grown up conversation on issues and policies.  I am hopeful that tone changes in a little over a month.

We have been losers in this regard for 4+ years.  I have no preconceptions that the decorum will improve without Trump.  There will be more of these nonsense spewing hair dryers to come.

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Lol.  I guess I started checking out at this point, because that vaguely sounds familiar.  

When tony posted that, in my head I was wondering if it was something to do with giving vaccines time to be fully worked out like they should be.  Is the claim that this is making the vaccine political b/c it comes of as being against one this year just because Trump wants it this year?

Nobody is against a safe vaccine being developed as rapidly as possible. People object to/are suspicious of political/financial gain forcing a vaccine upon us before appropriate long term safety testing and immunologic follow up can be performed.
 

For perspective, the current record holder for vaccine rapidity, mumps, took about 4 years to develop. But that was in the 1960s. While technology has certainly improved, the most optimistic scientists think a covid-19 vaccine will take 12-18 months.

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7 hours ago, tonydead said:

Doesnt matter if you think Trump "handled" the virus poorly or not.  Turning the vaccine political like Biden did tonight, delaying it a millisecond, shows a gross misunderstanding of how the process works. And even worse shows his (Dems) true colors when it comes to Covid and their shouting from the rooftops about the number of deaths. Full stop.  

Trump turned the vaccine political when he keeps promising it soon and before the election and all of that.  He has turned medical issues political by inserting himself into the narrative over and over and contradicting his own medical experts time and time again.

To claim its Biden who has a gross misunderstanding of how the process works when Trump keeps promising things early...is utterly laughable.

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11 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Somebody else pointed it out last night but Trump actually missed an opportunity to let Biden display the mental acuity part more.  His constant talking over him just made it distracting across the board.  Even a seasoned veteran like Wallace seemed flustered and all over the place and nobody would accuse him of being mentally deficient.

And quick aside - I said before the debate that if it was a good debate that you could thank Wallace for that.  Well, it wasn’t a good debate - it was horrible.  But I completely disagree with folks from both sides blaming Wallace for what we saw.  I dare anybody to have sat in that moderator chair and kept things under control.  I think he asked some great questions of both candidates and did as best he could to keep them to the ground rules.  

No he didn't. It's not there. And he knows it's not there. That's why he chose to babble over top of him and try to drag him into a mud slinging contest rather than actually let Joe talk. The only watchable portions of that entire debacle were when Wallace actually got Agent Orange to shut up for 2 minutes and let Joe talk. 

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I turned it off early but I saw enough to know how this will settle as this one seems pretty easy.

If you were for Trump, you feel like you "won" as he stood strong and did the things you've liked about him for the past few years. There weren't any questions to be answered. You feel happy Biden lost.

If you were for Biden, you feel like you "won" as he answered the dementia worry questions. He struck a pretty good balance of being the more civil one but also pushed back. You feel happy Trump lost. 

Both men stayed very "on brand". Nothing new there. 

If you were undecided, you likely were either repulsed by what this has come to and are just as undecided now. Maybe even to the point you don't vote. I see way more urging folks to vote from the Democrats side so one could make the case people who choose not to vote might be a negative for Biden. 

So bottom line, no change except maybe fewer people voting. Which is not insignificant. 

It was ugly and uncomfortable and I don't see much reason to have any more of these. My guess is Trump will be all for having more. I'm not sure about Biden. He has more to lose and if I were advising Biden, I'd comfortable saying we don't need any more. 

 

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1 minute ago, Tool said:

Was Trump’s behavior acceptable to you? 

It’s what we expected. Trump is not going to let someone regurgitate false stories and refuted or unproven talking points.  He’s a hot head and a proud man.  If that was your strategy to smear and deflect, then that’s how Trump is going to react.  I was proud of our President and the way he stood up for himself and our country.  He’s got my vote.  

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I thought Trump was too aggressive to start.  Biden had a problem a few times with his thoughts.  Overall I thought Biden looked good, which I didn't think he would.  No clear cut winner IMO.  I doubt whether it changed any votes at all.

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1 minute ago, knowledge dropper said:

It’s what we expected. Trump is not going to let someone regurgitate false stories and refuted or unproven talking points.  He’s a hot head and a proud man.  If that was your strategy to smear and deflect, then that’s how Trump is going to react.  I was proud of our President and the way he stood up for himself and our country.  He’s got my vote.  

I don't get watching that for 90mins and being proud of our political process or who we have up for POTUS. 

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I turned it off early but I saw enough to know how this will settle as this one seems pretty easy.

If you were for Trump, you feel like you "won" as he stood strong and did the things you've liked about him for the past few years. There weren't any questions to be answered. You feel happy Biden lost.

If you were for Biden, you feel like you "won" as he answered the dementia worry questions. He struck a pretty good balance of being the more civil one but also pushed back. You feel happy Trump lost. 

Both men stayed very "on brand". Nothing new there. 

If you were undecided, you likely were either repulsed by what this has come to and are just as undecided now. Maybe even to the point you don't vote. I see way more urging folks to vote from the Democrats side so one could make the case people who choose not to vote might be a negative for Biden. 

So bottom line, no change except maybe fewer people voting. Which is not insignificant. 

It was ugly and uncomfortable and I don't see much reason to have any more of these. My guess is Trump will be all for having more. I'm not sure about Biden. He has more to lose and if I were advising Biden, I'd comfortable saying we don't need any more. 

 

Do you feel the outright refusal to denounce white supremesists would be a little repugnant to those in the middle? Not only that but telling them to be on standby? 

He talks about law and order but appears to be preparing the country for violence. 

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5 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

No he didn't. It's not there. And he knows it's not there. That's why he chose to babble over top of him and try to drag him into a mud slinging contest rather than actually let Joe talk. The only watchable portions of that entire debacle were when Wallace actually got Agent Orange to shut up for 2 minutes and let Joe talk. 

Don’t mistake mental acuity for saying he’s not qualified or anything close to that.  I’m saying he not polished and misspeaks a lot when given the chance.  Substance is there.

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3 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

It’s what we expected. Trump is not going to let someone regurgitate false stories and refuted or unproven talking points.  He’s a hot head and a proud man.  If that was your strategy to smear and deflect, then that’s how Trump is going to react.  I was proud of our President and the way he stood up for himself and our country.  He’s got my vote.  

So Biden was doing all the smearing and deflecting and Trump is a proud man who was just defending himself. Is that your take?

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6 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

It’s what we expected. Trump is not going to let someone regurgitate false stories and refuted or unproven talking points.  He’s a hot head and a proud man.  If that was your strategy to smear and deflect, then that’s how Trump is going to react.  I was proud of our President and the way he stood up for himself and our country.  He’s got my vote.  

Except...Biden was not the one reguritating false stories and unproven talking points (Burisma anyone).  Smear and deflect...which candidate brought up the other's son?  

Seems you find Trump's behavior acceptable...while being critical of Biden for exhibiting less objectionable behavior...when Biden reacts to Trump, he doesn't have the temperament.  When Trump attacks and reacts...it makes you proud.  Seems odd.

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3 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Don’t mistake mental acuity for saying he’s not qualified or anything close to that.  I’m saying he not polished and misspeaks a lot when given the chance.  Substance is there.

In a normal election I might care about someone with a habit of misspeaking. Words alone can't adequately describe how much I don't care about this when compared to the alternative. 

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2 minutes ago, Tool said:

So Biden was doing all the smearing and deflecting and Trump is a proud man who was just defending himself. Is that your take?

That seems to always be the take...Trump only responds he doesn't attack people.  That is what gets claimed.  Odd...one moment in particular its hard to ever defend that line of thought...going after Hunter Biden.  What was that a "defense" of?

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2 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

In a normal election I might care about someone with a habit of misspeaking. Words alone can't adequately describe how much I don't care about this when compared to the alternative. 

Well sure, that’s why I said it depends on what someone is looking for.  I think if you read all my posts from last night (or the last four years) you would know what I think about Trump but I’m trying to answer things as I perceive Independents or undecideds see it.  I’ve been very vocal that I have no idea how somebody could be undecided at this point.  

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Given last nights “debate”, I wonder if some, albeit a small number, of Republicans will change their vote to Biden or third party. I’ll have to ask my mom today who intends to vote Trump even though she dislikes him. She said she just can’t vote for a Democrat. I wonder if last night moved the needle.

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6 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I turned it off early but I saw enough to know how this will settle as this one seems pretty easy.

If you were for Trump, you feel like you "won" as he stood strong and did the things you've liked about him for the past few years. There weren't any questions to be answered. You feel happy Biden lost.

If you were for Biden, you feel like you "won" as he answered the dementia worry questions. He struck a pretty good balance of being the more civil one but also pushed back. You feel happy Trump lost. 

Both men stayed very "on brand". Nothing new there. 

If you were undecided, you likely were either repulsed by what this has come to and are just as undecided now. Maybe even to the point you don't vote. I see way more urging folks to vote from the Democrats side so one could make the case people who choose not to vote might be a negative for Biden. 

So bottom line, no change except maybe fewer people voting. Which is not insignificant. 

It was ugly and uncomfortable and I don't see much reason to have any more of these. My guess is Trump will be all for having more. I'm not sure about Biden. He has more to lose and if I were advising Biden, I'd comfortable saying we don't need any more. 

 

Yeah, this is my "worry" on the bottom line coverage this morning.  The basic undecided's thought of "that whole was a joke" instead of realizing that it was mainly Trump poisoning the well on the whole thing.   On one hand, I thought the debate was good for Biden in that it dispelled the dumb dementia line of attack and he didn't fall flat on his face as the frontrunner. On the other hand, turning off any casual undecideds and folks not wanting to bother voting at all is a bad thing for turnout- increased turnout typically helps the Dem candidate.  The coverage I'm seeing typically is "that whole thing was a debacle".  Which can implicate Biden in that narrative as well, despite the reality being basically Trump making fart noises all debate. 

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

That seems to always be the take...Trump only responds he doesn't attack people.  That is what gets claimed.  Odd...one moment in particular its hard to ever defend that line of thought...going after Hunter Biden.  What was that a "defense" of?

Corruption of Joe Biden.  Putting the enrichment of his son over America.  Sorry, but Biden’s corruption is an issue you can’t sweep under the rug. 

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5 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Well sure, that’s why I said it depends on what someone is looking for.  I think if you read all my posts from last night (or the last four years) you would know what I think about Trump but I’m trying to answer things as I perceive Independents or undecideds see it.  I’ve been very vocal that I have no idea how somebody could be undecided at this point.  

Someone might classify themselves as an 'independent' or 'undecided' when they say they are concerned enough about his gaffes to not vote for him, but they really aren't. They are just looking for reasons to justify voting for the indefensible. 

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18 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

It’s what we expected. Trump is not going to let someone regurgitate false stories and refuted or unproven talking points.  He’s a hot head and a proud man.  If that was your strategy to smear and deflect, then that’s how Trump is going to react.  I was proud of our President and the way he stood up for himself and our country.  He’s got my vote.  

:goodposting:

I would have been deeply disappointed if President Trump didn’t push back against Biden’s lies and Wallace’s interruptions all night. 

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5 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

Corruption of Joe Biden.  Putting the enrichment of his son over America.  Sorry, but Biden’s corruption is an issue you can’t sweep under the rug. 

A...there has been zero evidence of such corruption.  It hasn't been swept under the rug, things have actually been investigated...it didn't turn out well for Trump.

B...the last time he did it, he was impeached for it.

C...cocaine use is corruption?  Really?

D....enriching children over America...you really think that is something Trump wants to get into?  Really?

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1 minute ago, Widbil83 said:

:goodposting:

I would have been deeply disappointed if President Trump didn’t push back against Biden’s lies and Wallace’s interruptions all night. 

Wait...Wallace was the one interrupting?  You can't honestly believe this...I mean really, how is it possible to believe that it was Wallace interrupting and Biden was the one lying?  

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8 hours ago, I-ROK said:

Nope. Biden supports law and a little bit of order, no police force has endorsed him.

More than 175 current, former law enforcement officials endorse Joe Biden, slam Trump as 'lawless' president

Quote

More than 175 current and former law enforcement officers and officials endorsed Joe Biden for president on Friday, while slamming President Trump as a "lawless" president, Fox News has learned.

Fox News first obtained the list of the Biden-supporting law enforcement officials, which includes former U.S. attorneys, former state attorneys general, former sheriffs, and former police chiefs who touted the former vice president’s experience “keeping communities safe.” It includes Janet Napolitano, the former Obama administration secretary of Homeland Security who served as attorney general of Arizona.

“Joe Biden has always stood on the right side of the law and is offering a much needed vision for our Nation. When asked the question, would you feel safe in Joe Biden’s America? The answer is yes,” said Tom Manger, the retired chief and former president of the Major Cities Chiefs Association. “I’ve worked with Vice President Biden for years and know that he can heal the divide in our Country. He has condemned violence of all kinds, and there is no question that I would feel safe in Joe Biden’s America.”

Meanwhile, the retired chief of the Madison, Wis. Police Department, Noble Wray, slammed Trump as a “lawless” president.

“It’s ironic that a lawless president claims to be the ‘law and order’ president,” Wray said. “We are at a crossroads with this nation, and we need a president that has always prioritized the safety of Americans and their families.”

The list -- along with the rest of the article -- is available at the link.

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