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​ 🐘 ​​ 🐴 ​2020 Presidential Debates thread - 2nd Debate October 15


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1 hour ago, Da Guru said:

I don`t think anyone could have controlled last night.

They both were bad but Trump was worse.   I told my wife in the next debate while the opposing person has his 2 minutes they should turn off the others mike until it is an open debate at the end.

This would never work.  Trump would just yell louder to try and confuse and distract his opponent.

I honestly think if they used those dog shock collars and start it off at a level 1 setting.  If they start to get a little to uppity with the interruptions, just let them have it.  You can increase the settings as needed.

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:
26 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

Thanks for providing the context. It makes it sound much worse than the soundbyte. When he adds "somebody's got to do something," then he's making it clear that he wants a violent right-wing extremist group to be on standby so they can "do something" about the left.

That's really how it came off last night when he went to that right away.  

I only saw the "Stand by" clip last night, but then I noticed today that several Trump supporters were complaining about the line being taken out of context. But @HellToupee's transcription shows just how bad it really was.

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2 hours ago, sho nuff said:

Everyone is saying that?  And why are they saying it?  Because of Trump's behavior...not because Joe isn't up for it...because Biden should not get down in the mud with Trump.

 

Kamela came out right after the debate on CNN and said Joe is not dropping out of any debates.

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9 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Seriously.  He's asked if he's willing to do it and he says, sure.  He doesn't actually condemn anyone, just that he's willing to do it.

This is what you're clinging to?

I’m not the one clinging. That’s funny thanks. 🤣

Edited by GoBirds
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2 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

I only saw the "Stand by" clip last night, but then I noticed today that several Trump supporters were complaining about the line being taken out of context. But @HellToupee's transcription shows just how bad it really was.

IMO he put a little emphasis on "somebody's" got to do something about...   after he said the "stand down, stand by" comment.    Basically saying that he won't condemn them because at least they are doing something about the left.  

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New Data For Progress poll shows a Biden win, 52-39. https://www.vox.com/2020/9/30/21495284/data-for-progress-debate-poll

“The poll surveyed debate watchers but then weighted the demographics of the survey group to the population of likely voters in November. Most pollsters don’t do this, which ends up skewing their results toward Democrats because left-leaning college graduates are disproportionately likely to watch debates.

But even with the more Trump-friendly weighting, the poll shows a clear win for Biden and, not coincidentally, a fairly overwhelming sense that Biden’s conduct during the debate was more presidential.“

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37 minutes ago, dgreen said:

I'll admit I kind of liked Biden calling Trump a clown and a racist and telling him to shut up. At the very least, it was good entertainment. But, if I'm being honest and consistent with my positions on Trump's behavior, then I have to also admit that I don't think Biden should have done that. Last night, in the moment, my thought was that Biden should have quickly apologized for some of his comments. I think it could have been a powerful moment to take a shot out of frustration and then show the willingness to apologize and be the more mature person.

The only other option to firing back at Trump was to be steamrolled. Had he taken the high road all night they would be calling him soft, wussy, cuck etc right now. 

So Trump didn't provide him a lot of options so he took the least worst one. 

If you want to box your opponent but he comes straight at you throwing haymakers, you're going to have to do something about it. 

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2 hours ago, HellToupee said:


 

WALLACE: “Are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups…”

TRUMP: “Sure…”

WALLACE: “And to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities as we saw in Kenosha, and as we’ve seen in Portland”

TRUMP: “Sure, I’m prepared to do it, but I would say almost everything I see is from the left-wing not from the right-wing. I’m willing to do anything, I want to see peace…”

WALLACE: “Then do it, sir.”

BIDEN: “Do it, say it.”

TRUMP: “What do you want to call them? Give me a name.”

WALLACE: “White supremacists and right-wing militias”

BIDEN: “Proud Boys”

Trump: “Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what, somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left.”

Went into debate thinking Trump would try and do everything he could to turn Biden into a gaffe machine.  He tried hard and that didn't happen.

And here, it's Biden turning Trump into one of the biggest and most disgusting gaffes ever.  When the pressure was on, Trump crumbled and could not come up with a clear thought on his own.

Two or three times on all the CNN after debate shows last night, talking heads were puzzled as to why Trump did this as he has denounced that group a few times in the past.

 

Edited by Getzlaf15
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1 hour ago, GoBirds said:

WALLACE: “Are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups…”

TRUMP: “Sure…”

:lmao:

 

I'm good on this one, please move on. 

And what did he say when specifically asked about the Proud Boys.

You are good with sure...which is not surprising.  I think many want more than a "sure" as he interrupts the overall question and then deflected about the left.

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8 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Went into debate thinking Trump would try and do everything he could to turn Biden into a gaffe machine.  He tried hard and that didn't happen.

 

The random one-word and short sentences Trump would blurt out while Joe was talking were definitely coached as a way to try to make Biden stumble and lose his train of thought. Several I recall off the top of my head were contextless, random, and just plain odd:

”Pocahontas”

”Hillary”

”3 1/2 million from Moscow”

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32 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

This would never work.  Trump would just yell louder to try and confuse and distract his opponent.

I honestly think if they used those dog shock collars and start it off at a level 1 setting.  If they start to get a little to uppity with the interruptions, just let them have it.  You can increase the settings as needed.

Not sure either of them could take that type of jolt.  Might actually help Biden though...shock him back on track to a line of thought.

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4 minutes ago, Jobber said:

The random one-word and short sentences Trump would blurt out while Joe was talking were definitely coached as a way to try to make Biden stumble and lose his train of thought. Several I recall off the top of my head were contextless, random, and just plain odd:

”Pocahontas”

”Hillary”

”3 1/2 million from Moscow”

Socialist medicine a few times I believe too.  

That and a few instances of "you just lost the radical left"

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Just now, sho nuff said:

Sure...I don't think he will either.  

Why should he?  He won the debate.  He stood up to the "CornPop of The Right" and figuratively smashed him right in the mush.  

 

I just don't know who thought it would be a viable strategy to paint Joe as a feeble old man Trump was going to sit on......Joe looked ready to go another two rounds.  

 

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58 minutes ago, dgreen said:

I'll admit I kind of liked Biden calling Trump a clown and a racist and telling him to shut up. At the very least, it was good entertainment. But, if I'm being honest and consistent with my positions on Trump's behavior, then I have to also admit that I don't think Biden should have done that. Last night, in the moment, my thought was that Biden should have quickly apologized for some of his comments. I think it could have been a powerful moment to take a shot out of frustration and then show the willingness to apologize and be the more mature person.

I understand the desire to see Biden throw proverbial punches.

And I understand the desire to see Biden turn the other cheek and be the more mature person.

But both tactics are ineffective against sociopaths.

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:
7 minutes ago, Jobber said:

The random one-word and short sentences Trump would blurt out while Joe was talking were definitely coached as a way to try to make Biden stumble and lose his train of thought. Several I recall off the top of my head were contextless, random, and just plain odd:

”Pocahontas”

”Hillary”

”3 1/2 million from Moscow”

Socialist medicine a few times I believe too.  

That and a few instances of "you just lost the radical left"

"Call Sean Hannity!!"

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Just now, Thunderlips said:

Why should he?  He won the debate.  He stood up to the "CornPop of The Right" and figuratively smashed him right in the mush.  

 

I just don't know who thought it would be a viable strategy to paint Joe as a feeble old man Trump was going to sit on......Joe looked ready to go another two rounds.  

 

Should is a different story.  I said in the poll thread about more debates...Id rather see him release a statement or make a public statement stating that the debate was a trainwreck and not what the American people deserve.  It is clear having a rational and civil debate with the President is not possible.  Rather than sit through 2 more nights of lies, misinformation, insults and slandering my son...I will not partake in any more debates.  Instead, I will conduct a series of town hall events and televised/streamed 30 minute speeches on the issues to inform the voters of what I stand for and what my administration will do.

 

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1 hour ago, BobbyLayne said:

I posted a similar sentiment last night. It’s almost as if he isn’t running a campaign; he’s merely trying to consolidate power. It’s a very odd strategy when you’re losing by 5%-9%.

I think the problem is he just doesn't know how to do that without his usual tactics.  He barely understands the issues as it is - do we really think he's going to magically learn to run a campaign and pivot on issues when by his team's own admission he didn't spend a lot of time preparing for the debate.  MT posted Frum's analysis and I agreed with most of it - Trump assumes people want him to be domineering because that's part of what helped him win last time.  It doesn't seem to be getting across to him that a lot of people want civility and decency.  There's only so many people out there that could watch last night and find it glorious - and he already had their votes wrapped up.

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27 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Went into debate thinking Trump would try and do everything he could to turn Biden into a gaffe machine.  He tried hard and that didn't happen.

And here, it's Biden turning Trump into one of the biggest and most disgusting gaffes ever.  When the pressure was on, Trump crumbled and could not come up with a clear thought on his own.

Two or three times on all the CNN after debate shows last night, talking heads were puzzled as to why Trump did this as he has denounced that group a few times in the past.

 

I said in one of these threads (it's hard to keep up) that it made no sense that Trump didn't denounce them.  It would have been easy to do and I don't think he would lose a single vote over doing it.  I'm not sure which will be worse - if he let's this narrative sit out there without addressing it or if they claim he misspoke (which is what I actually thought in the moment).  Either will look bad and I agree at this point is a major gaffe for him.

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29 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

It's really depressing that we couldn't get better candidates than these two guys. Trump's a million times worse than Biden, but still.

Totally agree on this but I will say that we've heard from a few folks that normally would reply with "both of them are horrible" and they are basically saying Trump just proved the point that many have said about him for years - that's he's too much of an embarrassment to allow him to run the country for four more years.  As someone planning to vote for Biden I will take any logic someone wants to use to either not vote for Trump or more importantly to vote for Biden.  Even if they feel like they have to hold their nose while they do it.  At least with Biden you have someone who seems like a decent human being.

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22 minutes ago, Jobber said:

The random one-word and short sentences Trump would blurt out while Joe was talking were definitely coached as a way to try to make Biden stumble and lose his train of thought. Several I recall off the top of my head were contextless, random, and just plain odd:

”Pocahontas”

”Hillary”

”3 1/2 million from Moscow”

I don't actually want him to do this but if Biden had done the same but with Man...Woman...Person....Camera....TV I would have freaking lost it.

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:(

Proud Boys celebrated Trump's debate callout:

On their account on Telegram, the Proud Boys appeared to take the statement as marching orders. Another social media account for the group made "Stand back. Stand by" part of its new logo.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/proud-boys-celebrate-after-trump-s-debate-call-out-n1241512

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9 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Totally agree on this but I will say that we've heard from a few folks that normally would reply with "both of them are horrible" and they are basically saying Trump just proved the point that many have said about him for years - that's he's too much of an embarrassment to allow him to run the country for four more years.  As someone planning to vote for Biden I will take any logic someone wants to use to either not vote for Trump or more importantly to vote for Biden.  Even if they feel like they have to hold their nose while they do it.  At least with Biden you have someone who seems like a decent human being.

All I know is we have someone who is less indecent than Trump. That's not a high bar. There are areas of Biden's past that I don't feel comfortable with. The way he treated the other person involved in the accident that killed his first wife. The somewhat creepy / touchy behavior that surfaces from time to time. His fluidity in terms of political stances. I'm not entirely sure what he stands for, his messages have varied over time. I suppose that's inevitable when you've been in politics as long as he has. And I know its a periphery thing, and Trump and those in his orbit are again a zillion times worse, but I'm really not comfortable with how Hunter does seem to have benefited, even indirectly, from his father's position and influence. Beyond all that, Joe is clearly past it, he looked ancient last night to a greater degree than Trump.

I guess it's just sad that what's left standing are 2 dottering 70 year olds. How did it come to this?

Edited by Gr00vus
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19 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Trump assumes people want him to be domineering because that's part of what helped him win last time.

I agree with this. It worked better in 2016 because Hillary was less likeable than Biden. She also did a better job of fighting back, which ironically hurt her because it looked less like bullying by Trump and more like two fighters trading punches.

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7 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

All I know is we have someone who is less indecent than Trump. That's not a high bar. There are areas of Biden's past that I don't feel comfortable with. The way he treated the other person involved in the accident that killed his first wife. The somewhat creepy / touchy behavior that surfaces from time to time. His fluidity in terms of political stances. I'm not entirely sure what he stands for, his messages have varied over time. I suppose that's inevitable when you've been in politics as long as he has. And I know its a periphery thing, and Trump and those in his orbit are again a zillion times worse, but I'm really not comfortable with how Hunter does seem to have benefited, even indirectly, from his father's position and influence. Beyond all that, Joe is clearly past it, he looked ancient last night to a greater degree than Trump.

I guess it's just sad that what's left standing are 2 dottering 70 year olds. How did it come to this?

Sure, that's fair- I should probably add " by comparison" to my post.  I don't disagree with the idea that this really shouldn't be the 2 people we are left with.  But honestly, there's so much vitriol between the sides that's there's almost a certain mentality that you have to have to even want to enter politics to begin with.  Seems like those who go in wanting to actually do good get eating alive by the machine and burn out or drop out.  And I'm not sure I can blame any of them - no chance I would want to do it.

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1 hour ago, Chaz McNulty said:

You can bet that this really pissed off Trump's base.  They don't like it when the bully gets smacked in the mouth.

8 minutes ago, Murph said:

I agree with this. It worked better in 2016 because Hillary was less likeable than Biden. She also did a better job of fighting back, which ironically hurt her because it looked less like bullying by Trump and more like two fighters trading punches.

I voted for Trump in 2016 and I agree with this. I loved seeing him take down that smarmy Hillary. I didn't think Trump was really being a bully back then, because he was just reacting to Hillary's attacks.

But the same tactic doesn't work against Biden. He's not as angry as Hillary, he doesn't punch down like Hillary, and he doesn't attack Republicans the way that Hillary did.

 

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2 hours ago, GoBirds said:

Not very excellent.

How is that not excellent?  Last night was 100% catering to a small group of people, not a giant mass of moderates.  That appeared to be the strategy.   What am I missing?

edit to add:  if my comments were interpreted as not excellent, I apologize to anyone offended.  

Edited by Alex P Keaton
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1 hour ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Went into debate thinking Trump would try and do everything he could to turn Biden into a gaffe machine.  He tried hard and that didn't happen.

And here, it's Biden turning Trump into one of the biggest and most disgusting gaffes ever.  When the pressure was on, Trump crumbled and could not come up with a clear thought on his own.

Two or three times on all the CNN after debate shows last night, talking heads were puzzled as to why Trump did this as he has denounced that group a few times in the past.

 

One of the talking heads pointed out that Trump was his own worst enemy last night. Biden’s gaffes usually happen when he gets rambling and Trump kept interrupting him before he could get to that point.

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7 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

One of the talking heads pointed out that Trump was his own worst enemy last night. Biden’s gaffes usually happen when he gets rambling and Trump kept interrupting him before he could get to that point.

Great point.  It was brilliant strategy to get Biden flustered, and rambling......but Trump didn’t let him talk enough to look as incoherent and elderly as Biden really is.  The goal should always be 1) fluster Biden and get him off script, 2) let him ramble.

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Great point.  It was brilliant strategy to get Biden flustered, and rambling......but Trump didn’t let him talk enough to look as incoherent and elderly as Biden really is.  The goal should always be 1) fluster Biden and get him off script, 2) let him ramble.

There's a two fold problem for Trump on that:

1) Biden will do a fine job of bloviating the way a politician does.  He'll look at the camera, speak from the heart and give a nice little speech.  If he's not pressed on it....he'll be fine. So one HAS to get Bidens mouth racing before his mind.

2) It's not in Trumps DNA to sit back and let the moderator do it (and I don't think ANY of the moderators would call either of these men to task for getting off topic more than once for a question)....he HAS to wade into the frey.....and once that happens he looks bad for interrupting and Biden gets an out.  

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Great point.  It was brilliant strategy to get Biden flustered, and rambling......but Trump didn’t let him talk enough to look as incoherent and elderly as Biden really is.  The goal should always be 1) fluster Biden and get him off script, 2) let him ramble.

Agreed. Everyone knows Biden had to overcome stuttering but it rarely surfaces anymore. There were several instances of him stuttering last night. He fumbled / transposed figures all night, usually correcting himself, but if Trump was a little more nuanced he might realize he would benefit by interrupting less and letting Joe paint himself into a corner.

On the whole I don't think Biden had any major gaffes but those missteps would have been a bigger part of the narrative today if Trump hadn't insisted on being such a blowhard all night.

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7 minutes ago, Skoo said:

Two things Trump will never criticize: White Supremacists and Vladimir Putin

Probably the most disgusting part is that the White Supremacists don’t care. He could have given a full condemnation of them and not a single person would support him less. They would excuse it as him saying what he needed to for the cameras so that he could get re-elected. Yet he still wouldn’t do it.

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12 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Agreed. Everyone knows Biden had to overcome stuttering but it rarely surfaces anymore. There were several instances of him stuttering last night. He fumbled / transposed figures all night, usually correcting himself, but if Trump was a little more nuanced he might realize he would benefit by interrupting less and letting Joe paint himself into a corner.

On the whole I don't think Biden had any major gaffes but those missteps would have been a bigger part of the narrative today if Trump hadn't insisted on being such a blowhard all night.

I was waiting for Trump to mock Biden's stumbling. I was halfway expecting a Billy Madison, "To-to-to-to-today, junior!"...but maybe make it "senior" or something because Trump does actually have some decent juvenile insults from time to time.

And, agree, regarding what the narrative could've been. In most debates, Biden's performance would be all anyone's talking about. It would blasted by just about everyone. Yet, in last night's debate, his performance was, somehow, the better of the two, IMO.

 

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3 hours ago, whoknew said:

So could Wallace have done more to get control of Trump last night? I honestly don't know.

Wallace is legit. He's an excellent newsman. It was disappointing he lost control of the debate last night. But I'm not totally sure there was anything more he could have done.

People have repeatedly suggested the ability to cut mics, I think remotely controlled shock collars on the candidates is more appropriate.

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

In the grand scheme, I don't think the name calling made much difference either way. As far as Biden goes, some will like him snapping back at Trump and showing some fight in him. If he apologized, I am sure plenty of people would suggest he was spineless, not presidential, and not up to the challenge of being president. Being above the fray isn't always possible or recommended.

As discussed during the debate, the quick fix is having a moderator that controls the mikes and a timer. Flick the switch on and only one candidate can be heard and the mike shuts off when the timer runs out. That would make life so much easier. It is such an obvious fix, yet I don't fully understand why that is not an option.

I assume it's because the t.v. producers think what we're currently getting is better television. Trump knows this and plays on it - if it's on t.v. it's entertainment first, all other considerations second.

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