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NFL and Covid Issues - Keep it 100% NFL


Joe Bryant

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Just now, Doug B said:


I haven't found good sites that tease apart "before testing positive" and "before experiencing symptoms". Nevertheless, I'll offer this:


Further reading making a similar point.

I agree that the NFL is not fully following the conservative / safest approach on how best to handle things. Depending upon which update people want to buy into, the CDC has used 10-14 days in isolation as their recommendation for what to do when someone is exposed to someone that tested positive. The league seems to be doing their own thing, as they don't seem to care about exposure, they only care about who tests positive.

Jay Glazer reported Cam is asymptomatic. No one has reported that Newton has experienced any symptoms (although Cam himself posted about "taking this time to get healthy," which seems like an odd thing to say if you weren't actually sick).

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My guess is it's very difficult to spread the virus via casual contact while testing negative and being asymptomatic but it's hard to find anyone who is definitive about it one way or the other.

It's annoying trying to look it up because all the articles want to talk about symptomatic vs asymptomatic instead of pre-positive vs post-positive. But generally speaking if you test negative it means the virus has not yet incubated and most of all it means your viral load is extremely low and that's why I think it becomes very difficult to pass it on.

I think a misconception exists that a single particle of a virus can infect someone. But it's not like that. This virus does have a very low viral load needed for infection, believed to be around 1,000 viral particles. Now a cough releases 3,000 viral particles so in context 1,000 is not much but that's why I stressed casual contact and why masks and social distancing actually works because we can all have very minimal exposure to the virus and never become infected. When the viral loads increase you not only stand a greater chance of infection but the higher the viral loads will generally lead to more severe symptoms, which is why we health care workers for example have suffered so much.

But the higher a persons viral load it is believed they shed more of the virus and are considerably more infectious. I believe a person, like Cam, who tests negative has a very low viral load and exposing other people becomes far less likely and my guess is virtually non-existent with a little social distancing.

 

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The memo to teams says that the league could penalize teams by loss of draft picks or even forfeiture of games if the rescheduling of games or “impact to other teams” is determined to be from protocol violations.

Link

As I said in the Shark Pool thread:

Sounds like 2 things:

1) The NFL does not have any viable plan in place in case a team would not be able to play 2 games due to Covid

2) This is a shot across the bow at the Titans with the NFL investigating and believing that the Titans violated league protocols. If their game against the Bills this week can’t be played, it sounds like there’s a very real chance the league may force the Titans to forfeit rather than deal with the consequences of not having a decent plan in place if a team has to miss multiple games.

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6 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

The memo to teams says that the league could penalize teams by loss of draft picks or even forfeiture of games if the rescheduling of games or “impact to other teams” is determined to be from protocol violations.

Link

As I said in the Shark Pool thread:

Sounds like 2 things:

1) The NFL does not have any viable plan in place in case a team would not be able to play 2 games due to Covid

2) This is a shot across the bow at the Titans with the NFL investigating and believing that the Titans violated league protocols. If their game against the Bills this week can’t be played, it sounds like there’s a very real chance the league may force the Titans to forfeit rather than deal with the consequences of not having a decent plan in place if a team has to miss multiple games.

We'll see. The league is trying to flex its muscle. I doubt they would retroactively punish the Titans at this point. It's not like they can undo what happened. The league generally will punish people moving forward once everyone gets the memo. Forfeiting games and draft picks seems a bit Draconian. Maybe if they have footage of half of a team's defense going to a rave with 1,000 mask less people all piled on top of each other.

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13 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

We'll see. The league is trying to flex its muscle. I doubt they would retroactively punish the Titans at this point. It's not like they can undo what happened. The league generally will punish people moving forward once everyone gets the memo. Forfeiting games and draft picks seems a bit Draconian. Maybe if they have footage of half of a team's defense going to a rave with 1,000 mask less people all piled on top of each other.

Would players even care about their team losing draft picks? Seems like that’s better for job security.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Would players even care about their team losing draft picks? Seems like that’s better for job security.

The inference is that the front office and coaches need to do a better job self-policing their own players. Some of the the players may not care, but the nonplayers will care.

They were discussing Cam Newton on the radio today. Apparently there are pictures of him on Facebook taking selfies with a few people at a local mall. Some he has a mask on properly, others he has a mask on improperly (not fully covering his nose). Cam also has been flying to Atlanta after games and before the start of weekly practice to see his kids. I don't know what the official NFL rules are, but I am guessing they would probably frown on either of those. Are players not supposed to go shopping? Are they not supposed to keep fans happy? Are they not supposed to see their children?

I don't know what should be considered reasonable or reasonable given the world we live in. On a scale of 1-10, how bad are those things that Cam did?

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Just now, themeistersinger said:

NFL stresses new COVID-19 protocols in memo; violations causing schedule adjustments could result in forfeiture of games

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-stresses-new-covid-19-protocols-in-memo-says-violations-that-result-in-sched

 

In response, the league has changed its protocols, requiring a longer on-boarding process for free-agent tryouts, banning gatherings outside of the club facility, limiting the number of tryouts permitted per week and implementing a league-wide video monitoring system to ensure compliance.

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On 10/4/2020 at 4:01 PM, song said:

gee why don't you criticize Schefter for not providing a link to his reporting? 

I assume the moderator is just as concerned if there is speculation that there are secret league plans for covid response if there is no link to them. Right?

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7 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

The inference is that the front office and coaches need to do a better job self-policing their own players. Some of the the players may not care, but the nonplayers will care.

They were discussing Cam Newton on the radio today. Apparently there are pictures of him on Facebook taking selfies with a few people at a local mall. Some he has a mask on properly, others he has a mask on improperly (not fully covering his nose). Cam also has been flying to Atlanta after games and before the start of weekly practice to see his kids. I don't know what the official NFL rules are, but I am guessing they would probably frown on either of those. Are players not supposed to go shopping? Are they not supposed to keep fans happy? Are they not supposed to see their children?

I don't know what should be considered reasonable or reasonable given the world we live in. On a scale of 1-10, how bad are those things that Cam did?

I don't think it's right that people in the general public know that he is flying to Atlanta, just saying that it's his right to see his kids. And also it shames being a parent or dad and that sends a bad message as well. "We caught Cam flying down to see his bleepin' kids in Atlanta, what a menace to the NFL"

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6 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

I don't think it's right that people in the general public know that he is flying to Atlanta, just saying that it's his right to see his kids. And also it shames being a parent or dad and that sends a bad message as well. "We caught Cam flying down to see his bleepin' kids in Atlanta, what a menace to the NFL"

To be clear he was given a choice in all this. Plenty of NBA players missed their kids for a couple of months. Maybe the sentiment of your post makes me bristle a bit because my home is in a Navy town and plenty of folks make choices that includes missing their kids for a few months for their well being and they aren't compensated millions of dollars for it like NBA/NFL players.

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14 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

The inference is that the front office and coaches need to do a better job self-policing their own players. Some of the the players may not care, but the nonplayers will care.

They were discussing Cam Newton on the radio today. Apparently there are pictures of him on Facebook taking selfies with a few people at a local mall. Some he has a mask on properly, others he has a mask on improperly (not fully covering his nose). Cam also has been flying to Atlanta after games and before the start of weekly practice to see his kids. I don't know what the official NFL rules are, but I am guessing they would probably frown on either of those. Are players not supposed to go shopping? Are they not supposed to keep fans happy? Are they not supposed to see their children?

I don't know what should be considered reasonable or reasonable given the world we live in. On a scale of 1-10, how bad are those things that Cam did?

Also, just a shoutout to @Anarchy99 on the "source" thing. It took a couple of seconds for you to add the "on the radio" but that helps all of us understand the story better. Details on sources like that are always helpful. Thanks. 

I truly don't know the rules for what players are doing outside the facility and how they're enforced.

If I'm Robert Kraft, I'd be thinking about chartering a plane for Newton for this. How much is a win worth in the NFL? They have a lot better chance with Newton on the field. 

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Quote

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Titans had zero positive tests for the second consecutive day.

The team is on track to reopen its facilities on Wednesday and return to the field for Week 5 against the Bills. With new rules in place that suggest the league will force teams to forfeit games if improperly carrying on, Tennessee would likely face harsh consequences if another breakout from Nashville occurs. The Titans will have to field a squad (and staff) without the 17 players and personnel currently listed on the team's COVID list.

- Rotoworld

 

Edited by The Frankman
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My feelings about some of this has changed based on how things are rolling along.

-First, the NFL is coming down hard and I think the other 30-31 NFL teams will take notice and re-check, re-button up, it was a good "Fire Drill" if you will and I think it might help prevent future outbreaks. 

-Based on how they played the KC-NE game and also the Saints-Detroit, it looks like just one or two isolated positive tests does not mean the whole game is stopped. I do think owners need to prepare that a skill position player can be held out if they test positive and it might not be a push to a bye week for the whole team. So you are going to lose a game or two as that player is quarantined. 

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On 10/4/2020 at 8:20 PM, Man In The Box said:

Nope, sorry. Changing rules on the fly is asking for unnecessary headaches. Been doing this for  a long time and learned the hard way. 

Been doing this a long time as well and realize that his situation is unique to anything we have had to address in the 25+ years of our league.

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On 10/5/2020 at 11:09 AM, menobrown said:

My guess is it's very difficult to spread the virus via casual contact while testing negative and being asymptomatic but it's hard to find anyone who is definitive about it one way or the other.

It's annoying trying to look it up because all the articles want to talk about symptomatic vs asymptomatic instead of pre-positive vs post-positive. But generally speaking if you test negative it means the virus has not yet incubated and most of all it means your viral load is extremely low and that's why I think it becomes very difficult to pass it on.

 

I would think it would be almost impossible to do a valid study of pre-positive vs post-positive for several reasons:

1)  Symptomatic vs asymptomatic is a definitive thing that can be measured and recorded amongst the population that have tested positive, whereas pre vs post is not

2)  The point in time in the progression of C-19 infection where positive test results occur is too unpredictable.   Some people get tests early in this timeline due to exposure, or potential exposure, some get tested after believing they have symptoms, some get tested due to symptoms from other bugs or conditions, some don't get tested at all

3)  There are multiple different types of tests that are being relied upon that yield a result summarized as positive or negative, but what that answer means varys a great deal from test to test and even from lab to lab

4)  The false positive and false negative rates amongst the tests are so high that even if 1, 2 and 3 above weren't true, this alone would make the study results difficult to interpret

Edited by spodog
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On 10/5/2020 at 9:23 AM, Anarchy99 said:

It's going to be a long day for NE. Fly to KC, play game, fly home all in the same day.

Yes, the Patriots got to enjoy one of those kind of days, similar to what many of us mere mortals have had to incur in our working life. 

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On 10/4/2020 at 1:57 PM, Bri said:

A guy on Dallas ESPN pointed out (and I think this is a great point) the schedule really is the limiting factor here. 

If we conceded not everyone will ever be happy and do what's best for players health (and schedule changes) it becomes a whole lot easier.

Suppose the Titans and Pats were out this week. The Steelers could have simply played KC with the Titans playing the Pats later.

Everything here would certainly be a slippery slope- but that means that team has a harder schedule and that team an easier one and (no disrespect to Carlton as I love his SOS stuff) are we really sure the SOS is even across all 32 teams? This seems like a small concession to make in a pandemic. Remember almost half the teams make the playoffs now so even with changes it still should be realistic who makes it.

Someone suggested seeding if 4 or more teams positive, I like that. Someone suggested similar records play to have a better/realistic draft order. Not sure I get it, but fine.

The draw here was also that if you're covid free, you might get an extra week or two off before the playoffs. 

I wouldn't doubt there are a handful of people here that would be more than capable of making a modified schedule. I really like this concept; although the NFL has not at all said anything about doing this and straying from the schedule

Well the NFL botched their opportunity to create a schedule in the offseason that could have had a lot more flexibility built into it to accommodate what happened here in Week 4 and what is likely to occur again as the season moves forward. 

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9 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Also, just a shoutout to @Anarchy99 on the "source" thing. It took a couple of seconds for you to add the "on the radio" but that helps all of us understand the story better. Details on sources like that are always helpful. Thanks. 

I truly don't know the rules for what players are doing outside the facility and how they're enforced.

If I'm Robert Kraft, I'd be thinking about chartering a plane for Newton for this. How much is a win worth in the NFL? They have a lot better chance with Newton on the field. 

This is a great point.   Given the way the Pats D shut down the Chiefs in the first half, that game with Cam could definitely have been put in the W column for NE and would have been an important road win come playoff tiebreaker time.  

Kraft has the ability to fly a charter to FL to goof off in a massage parlor the weekend of the AFC Championship game, but it doesn't occur to him to use one for this purpose?   

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9 minutes ago, spodog said:

This is a great point.   Given the way the Pats D shut down the Chiefs in the first half, that game with Cam could definitely have been put in the W column for NE and would have been an important road win come playoff tiebreaker time.  

Kraft has the ability to fly a charter to FL to goof off in a massage parlor the weekend of the AFC Championship game, but it doesn't occur to him to use one for this purpose?   

I saw / read / heard that Cam was traveling back and forth from Atlanta on a chartered plane. Not sure who paid for it or provided the plane. 

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11 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I got a YahooSports notification that NE placed someone from their practice squad on the COVID list. Hopefully they won’t have anyone else or it will start making the decision to play last night a bad one. 

DT Bill Murray

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/patriots-practice-squad-player-follows-cam-newton-onto-reservecovid-19-list-per-report/

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9 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I got a YahooSports notification that NE placed someone from their practice squad on the COVID list. Hopefully they won’t have anyone else or it will start making the decision to play last night a bad one. 

Depends on whether he is on the list for exposure or testing positive. If the latter, seems like it would be a bigger story i.e. every time another Titans player tested positive last week.

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Just now, Mystery Achiever said:

Depends on whether he is on the list for exposure or testing positive. If the latter, seems like it would be a bigger story i.e. every time another Titans player tested positive last week.

Murray did not fly to KC with the team, but he was staying at the hotel that NE has offered players to stay in next to their stadium. 

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22 minutes ago, Mystery Achiever said:

Well, very good that he wasn't on the plane even if he didn't test positive but was exposed

That’s one of the unknowns so far. It doesn’t sound like he was in close contact with Cam. So at this point, there has not been any reporting as to whether he tested positive or not.

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Two Titans players confirmed tested positive via Tom Pelissero

EDIT:
 

Quote

ESPN’s Dianna Russini reports two Titans players tested positive for COVID-19.

That puts the Titans at 11 total players with the virus. Tennessee was expected to return to their facility Wednesday but that’s now not going to happen. Their Week 5 game with Buffalo is in jeopardy of not getting played. The Titans would need no positive tests for the next two days to return to practice.

- Rotoworld

 

Edited by The Frankman
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8 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

>>Source confirms that Gilmore tested positive and the Patriots won’t be practicing today. Third Patriot to test positive in the last week. The Titans also have “at least” one more positive and aren’t returning to work today. Pats-Broncos and Titans-Bills are both in doubt.<<

https://mobile.twitter.com/benvolin?lang=en

:sadbanana:

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22 minutes ago, PennStater77 said:

They really need to forfeit games going forward. 

Ok. I’ll bite. Why? People can catch it following protocols and living their daily lives. That’s grounds for a forfeit? If there are players infected on both teams like NE and KC, should they both teams forfeit?

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11 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Ok. I’ll bite. Why? People can catch it following protocols and living their daily lives. That’s grounds for a forfeit? If there are players infected on both teams like NE and KC, should they both teams forfeit?

Yeah can't forfeit games unless there is a clear violation of protocols.  How do we know the Titans are doing anything wrong besides getting sick?  Were a bunch of them out in public without masks (like the Raiders did with that charitable event last week).

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Seems like a pretty obvious stopgap fix if the Patriots and Titans can't go this week - their opponents (Bills and Broncos) are supposed to play later on this season.  Just let them play this week.

Complicating the Titans/Bills game issue is that the Bills play on Thursday night next week.  They can't delay the game until Mon/Tue next week, because then they'd have to reschedule next week's TNF.

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1 hour ago, The Frankman said:

Wow. This is not promising. This seems like evidence that clearly supports that that the virus having up to a 2 week incubation period is not hugely uncommon.  

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6 minutes ago, Steve Tasker said:

Seems like a pretty obvious stopgap fix if the Patriots and Titans can't go this week - their opponents (Bills and Broncos) are supposed to play later on this season.  Just let them play this week.

Too late.  I don't think you should ask NFL teams to suddenly switch opponents halfway through the week.  If this were baseball, sure, but there's too much opponent-specific game-planning in football to make a switch this late.

More generally though, the league should have had a plan in place for handling these situations that doesn't rely on lucky breaks with scheduling.

Edit: Just to clarify, this isn't a "Bills homer" thing.  Buffalo could face off against Denver with 24 hour's notice and do just fine.  But imagine a case where flipping opponents resulted in a critical game being played with no serious preparation (like BAL-PIT for example).

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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9 minutes ago, Pipes said:

Yeah can't forfeit games unless there is a clear violation of protocols.  How do we know the Titans are doing anything wrong besides getting sick?  Were a bunch of them out in public without masks (like the Raiders did with that charitable event last week).

How are they getting sick if they are doing everything right? Protocols were put in place to not have this stuff happen.

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2 minutes ago, PennStater77 said:

How are they getting sick if they are doing everything right? Protocols were put in place to not have this stuff happen.

People get sick and they aren't living in a bubble.  No protocol minus complete isolation is 100% effective.  Forfeits should only happen if you can prove negligence and the only obvious instance we've seen of that is the Raiders charitable event last week.

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