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I'm still undecided. (1 Viewer)

EZD222 said:
The NY Times Daily podcast had an episode this week specifically on promises kept/not kept. I was surprised at the kept column (although its interpretative).

Kept: Deregulation, immigration, taxes, SC, pulling out of global arrangements.

Failed on the ACA, the wall, jobs/manufacturing, trade deficit, national debt, draining the swamp, COVID.
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Covid probably wasn't a campaign promise to be fair.

 
HellToupee said:
Pete B would’ve been a hell of a pick
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Pete or Yang would have actually had me feeling decent about the direction of the Dem’s and would have gotten my vote.  The empty suit name brand they selected only pushed me further away.  It’s a shame they had a real opportunity to move the party forward and blew it.  

 
Trump only wins with the support of Qanon and white supremacists (not saying everyone that votes for trump falls into one of those groups).  He covets those groups and winning is dependent on their vote.

thats reason enough to pull the other lever.

 
dkp993 said:
Pete or Yang would have actually had me feeling decent about the direction of the Dem’s and would have gotten my vote.  The empty suit name brand they selected only pushed me further away.  It’s a shame they had a real opportunity to move the party forward and blew it.  
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 Not sure who you mean by “they”.  The democratic nominee is determined mainly by African Americans.  The Republican nominee is determined mainly by Evangelical Christians.  Until the primary system changes, that won’t.

 
Tolstoy said:
 Not sure who you mean by “they”.  The democratic nominee is determined mainly by African Americans.  The Republican nominee is determined mainly by Evangelical Christians.  Until the primary system changes, that won’t.
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“They” being the powers that be in a democratic hierarchy who we all know, just like on the Republican side, certainly have power and influence on who they put up and push. And the voters in the primaries. Everyone involved here got suckered in by branding and marketing.  

 
gianmarco said:
2) Why is raising taxes a vote killer? I know we all want more money for ourselves, but taxes do serve a purpose. Would it matter at all what your taxes would be used for? Do you think taxes should never go up?
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Yeah, I really don’t understand this line of thinking. Even if you are hard core libertarian, we have a ginormous debt that needs to be repaid, eventually. I guess some think there is no meaningful consequence to defaulting on our loans.

And IIRC,  overall taxes in the US aren’t bad compared to other OECD countries, and personal income tax in particular is pretty low. But I’m open to being corrected by someone with more financial knowledge.

 
dkp993 said:
“They” being the powers that be in a democratic hierarchy who we all know, just like on the Republican side, certainly have power and influence on who they put up and push. And the voters in the primaries. Everyone involved here got suckered in by branding and marketing.  
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sounds a little tin foil hattish to me.  you think the “powers” want these nominees?

 
The Dude said:
Trump only wins with the support of Qanon and white supremacists (not saying everyone that votes for trump falls into one of those groups).  He covets those groups and winning is dependent on their vote.

thats reason enough to pull the other lever.
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I'm guessing Antifa and the radical left will also vote Trump.  Biden winning is probably dependent on those votes too.  

 
Mr.Pack said:
So I see people in the PSF making fun of people who are undecided, but here I am. Believe it or not I and my wife are on the fence and still have no clue who we are going to vote for, or if we will vote.

Voted for Trump in 2016 based on my hope that he would not be politics as usual, that things would change politically in Washington. Call me naïve and that's fine, I was, and still am fed up with Politics as we know it. I've said many times this country won't change politically until we have a viable 3rd party.

I'm not a Trump supporter. I do like a lot of the policies he's signed  and he is one of the few Presidents who's actually kept a lot of his campaign promises. He acts like a spoiled child and I hate that. If he had never found Twitter we'd be much better off, but he can't help himself and the next time he takes the high road will be the first. However the Dems fought him from the Inauguration with none of them showing up for it and it's been uphill ever since. Worst bipartisan politics I've ever seen. He's far from Presidential but we knew this coming in. We didn't know he was going to act like a moron day in and day out. Herein lies my dilemma.

I started watching the Town Hall with Biden last night and he really can be a bumbling fool at times. I did like what I heard so far and a vote for him would hopefully bring us back to a normality in this country. I need to hear more, especially his financial and tax policies. Raising taxes in my book is a vote killer, but I'm open right now.

I want this country to get back to normal. Blaming this all on one guy like a lot of you in the PSF and throughout the country do is laughable. Obama set the tone in his first term by stating that elections have consequences, get over it, I won. I don't think he was good for this country. I think Trump has been good for this country policy-wise for sure, but I don't know if I can overlook the ####storm that follows him.

Can I bite the bullet for some type of normalcy for 4 years? Can I trust he will serve all 4 years? That may be the biggest knock on a Biden vote for me, President Harris is not something I ever want.

Flame away. But I am undecided.
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You’re voting for trump.  Happy to help.

 
Terminalxylem said:
Yeah, I really don’t understand this line of thinking. Even if you are hard core libertarian, we have a ginormous debt that needs to be repaid, eventually. I guess some think there is no meaningful consequence to defaulting on our loans.

And IIRC,  overall taxes in the US aren’t bad compared to other OECD countries, and personal income tax in particular is pretty low. But I’m open to being corrected by someone with more financial knowledge.
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Not speaking for the OP, but while I agree with the line of thinking on the debt, nobody has any faith that's what it would be used for.  We raise taxes by a factor of X and the entitlement spending will increase multiples of X.  That's the problem a lot of people have with it.  And while I'm not defending Republican spending, I'm quite critical of it, at some point you for lack of a better term "run out of runway" as entitlements increase and you are increasing taxes while deficits expand.  You are shrinking your margin for correction while the problem grows.  The remaining revenue that can be raised will shrink due to raising rates as the problem grows because it's still not going to be in balance.  I've kind of given up on us ever fixing this issue though.

 
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People screaming that Biden will raise your taxes - any response to the Trump tax cuts expiring in 2025 for "we the people" but staying in effect for corporations?  Is this considered a GOP tax increase?  How do you propose we pay for the stimulus, farmer payouts to combat trade war results and other obligations?  I want to keep as much as my money as possible but realize we need to pay for things.  

 
dkp993 said:
If you don’t think the respective party’s don’t have power and influence into who the nominee’s are I don’t know what to say.  
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I mean.....its pretty obvious that there was some teamwork (call it collusion if you want) surrounding Biden getting the nomination. None of the younger candidates were gaining any traction and they knew that if they didn't end it then, that Bernie would win.   And while Bernie might have won, everyone knew that A) his values/ideas didn't represent the majority of the party(only enough to win delegates when there were 5 other candidates splitting the votes)  and B) he wasn't their best chance to beat Trump.

So the party basically told everyone to get out so that the non-Bernie voters could consolidate and clear the way for Biden. Its not a coincidence that Warren, Pete, Bloomberg and Klobuchar all pulled out over the course of 3 days. 

So in that sense....yeah, the "powers that be" put their thumb on the scale a little bit. But if the goal is to beat Trump (which it obviously is) it was the right thing to do.

 
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Sorry got off topic there...in response to Mr Pack i agree with you in not liking either of these choices.  Really wish there was a 3rd party like suggested in this thread.  I don't know how this happens as both the Ds and Rs will not let the power and money go away.  Only thing I can see getting this going is a true uprising (not Antifa or Proud Boy) by ordinary citizens that are fed up, but too many still think their side is looking out for their best interest.  This year Biden is getting my vote, my second vote for D President in my life (49 years old, voted for Obama first term) as I would like to have some normalcy return to the US and have our allies believe we have their back again.

 
tonydead said:
I know what the media tells you, but, I can tell you for a fact that a company I have dealings with has over 2 billion dollars worth of border work under contract.  And I can also tell you those aren't the only contracts that have been awarded.

No one with an ounce of knowledge would expect the Army Corps of Engineers to be able to award, design and finish building billion dollar contracts in 4 years.  The government just can't act that fast.  

If Biden gets elected he can cancel all those contracts.  The contractors are getting paid daily (instead of monthly) just in case that happens, but, there will be a fair amount of wall constructed.  If Trump wins, 8 years should be enough to fulfill the vast majority of the promise if not all of it.
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But the promise was that Mexico would pay for it.  If we've already spent billions on it, that ship seems to have sailed already.

 
jm192 said:
I'm guessing Antifa and the radical left will also vote Trump.  Biden winning is probably dependent on those votes too.  
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So you are equating antifa to groups that hate people based on skin color?  And the far left to People that think trumps enemies are pedophiles?   There’s false equivalency - but this is whacked out equivalency.

 
The Dude said:
So you are equating antifa to groups that hate people based on skin color?  And the far left to People that think trumps enemies are pedophiles?   There’s false equivalency - but this is whacked out equivalency.
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Does antifa not think that white people, by virtue of their skin color are at least tacitly the problem in this country?  

 
I believe you will vote for Trump. If after seeing President Trump retweeted a ridiculous conspiracy theory suggesting VP Biden attempted to have Seal Team Six killed so they wouldn’t let us know that Osama Bin Ladin wasn’t killed and is still alive, you still can’t decide on your own he doesn’t belong in the Oval Office I can’t see how anyone here can help you decide. 

 
lazyike said:
I believe you will vote for Trump. If after seeing President Trump retweeted a ridiculous conspiracy theory suggesting VP Biden attempted to have Seal Team Six killed so they wouldn’t let us know that Osama Bin Ladin wasn’t killed and is still alive, you still can’t decide on your own he doesn’t belong in the Oval Office I can’t see how anyone here can help you decide. 
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the normalization of his lunacy is just astounding

 
GoBirds said:
@Mr.Pack tune out the noise, Trump has improved the everyday life of American citizens. More in 4 years than the 8 previous years did. Biden has the media and big tech on his side and there's still not a single thing appealing about him besides "But Trump!". I'm not crazy about Trump as a person either but our other option is a DC lifelong underachiever that abused the system like many have in the past to become wealthy. Hopefully we have better options next time but this is where we are at. 
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I would love this unpacked.   I see this, and I read "in the last 4 years some people's 401K has improved".   So my question is 2 fold:

1.  What, besides people's bank accounts, might have improved in the last 4 years?

2.  What of the above can be directly tied into Mr. Trump and policies that he has implemented in the last 4 years?

 
tonydead said:
I know what the media tells you, but, I can tell you for a fact that a company I have dealings with has over 2 billion dollars worth of border work under contract.  And I can also tell you those aren't the only contracts that have been awarded.

No one with an ounce of knowledge would expect the Army Corps of Engineers to be able to award, design and finish building billion dollar contracts in 4 years.  The government just can't act that fast.  

If Biden gets elected he can cancel all those contracts.  The contractors are getting paid daily (instead of monthly) just in case that happens, but, there will be a fair amount of wall constructed.  If Trump wins, 8 years should be enough to fulfill the vast majority of the promise if not all of it.
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I sure hope he does. As a fiscal conservative for small government, this seems like a very poor use of government funds. I’d rather see that money pay off debt or go back to the taxpayers somehow. 

 
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dkp993 said:
“They” being the powers that be in a democratic hierarchy who we all know, just like on the Republican side, certainly have power and influence on who they put up and push. And the voters in the primaries. Everyone involved here got suckered in by branding and marketing.  
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What branding and marketing? Biden's campaign was flat broke before he won SC in a decisive victory and didn't even have a semblance of a ground game in most of the Super Tuesday states. The media was calling his campaign dead. 

The voters decided this. There was no nefarious "they." Biden certainly wasn't near the top of my list and I was a Mayor Pete donor,  but this narrative is getting rather tiresome. 

 
lazyike said:
I believe you will vote for Trump. If after seeing President Trump retweeted a ridiculous conspiracy theory suggesting VP Biden attempted to have Seal Team Six killed so they wouldn’t let us know that Osama Bin Ladin wasn’t killed and is still alive, you still can’t decide on your own he doesn’t belong in the Oval Office I can’t see how anyone here can help you decide. 
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wut. That happened?

 
mrip541 said:
They think that white supremacy and systemic racism is the problem.
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They also appear to by in large believe that capitalism is the problem and want a Marxist style government.  So they are pretty much in the same camp for me as the right wing nut jobs who want to overthrow the government for their perverted reasons.  They are both trash.

 
The Dude said:
So you are equating antifa to groups that hate people based on skin color?  And the far left to People that think trumps enemies are pedophiles?   There’s false equivalency - but this is whacked out equivalency.
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I was saying there’s radicals, bad people on both sides.  
 

 
A return to something resembling normalcy and respect and basic decency on a domestic and international stage is more important  than a few bucks coming out of your wallet or whatever your issue is with Harris, imo. Even if she takes over (I think Biden serves the whole term) you can vote her out in 2024. 
 

It’s country over self no matter what you think of Biden. He was my 6th choice among the D candidates when the primaries ran. But Trump is unspeakably horrible and has done serious damage to our standing on the international stage. Biden can reset things and then hopefully we can move past all the hate and anger this man has caused these past 4 years. 

 
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Capella said:
A return to something resembling normalcy and respect and basic decency on a domestic and international stage is more important  than a few bucks coming out of your wallet or whatever your issue is with Harris, imo. Even if she takes over (I think Biden serves the whole term) you can vote her out in 2024. 
 

It’s country over self no matter what you think of Biden. Trump is unspeakably horrible. Biden can reset things and then hopefully we can move past all the hate and anger this man has caused these past 4 years. 
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Yeah.  Racism started in 2016.  All Trump’s fault.

Will Smith said it best.  This stuff didn’t start increasing, people just started recording it.

 
jm192 said:
Yeah.  Racism started in 2016.  All Trump’s fault.

Will Smith said it best.  This stuff didn’t start increasing, people just started recording it.
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Nowhere in that post did I say racism started in 2016 or bc of Trump. I’m not interested in your straw man, at all. 

 
Capella said:
Nowhere in that post did I say racism started in 2016 or bc of Trump. I’m not interested in your straw man, at all. 
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Cool.  I’m not interested in hearing how all the hate is Trump’s fault when it happened under Biden’s watch for 47 years.  But by God in 2020, he’s going to fix it!

 
FreeBaGeL said:
But the promise was that Mexico would pay for it.  If we've already spent billions on it, that ship seems to have sailed already.
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You would have to factor in the new trade deal with them (and Canada) whatever it is called.  I'm assuming it is more profitable for us yes?  Irregardless some of us wanted the wall no matter who paid. 

 
tonydead said:
You would have to factor in the new trade deal with them (and Canada) whatever it is called.  I'm assuming it is more profitable for us yes?  Irregardless some of us wanted the wall no matter who paid. 
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Enjoying the 5 new miles that have been built?

So much for campaign promises.

 
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Zow said:
I sure hope he does. As a fiscal conservative for small government, this seems like a very poor use of government funds. I’d rather see that money pay off debt or go back to the taxpayers somehow. 
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Agree to disagree.  If it's my pocket or the wall its debatable.  But, I think money got diverted from military spending. If that's the case then the best defence is a strong border.  

 
The Dude said:
Trump only wins with the support of Qanon and white supremacists (not saying everyone that votes for trump falls into one of those groups).  He covets those groups and winning is dependent on their vote.

thats reason enough to pull the other lever.
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Here we go @Mr.Pack , the first installment of Trump supporters helping you vote for President Trump is this post.

Have you ever heard of a Qanon or white suprematists group burning down, looting or destroying a city In the last 6 months?

 
Widbil83 said:
Here we go @Mr.Pack , the first installment of Trump supporters helping you vote for President Trump is this post.

Have you ever heard of a Qanon or white suprematists group burning down, looting or destroying a city In the last 6 months?
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On the flip side, have you heard of a extreme left group plotting to kidnap the governor of one of our states?

 
jm192 said:
Cool.  I’m not interested in hearing how all the hate is Trump’s fault when it happened under Biden’s watch for 47 years.  But by God in 2020, he’s going to fix it!
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Biden’s watch as a.......senator. For one of our smallest states. You must really be confused as to how the system works. 
 

And Trump didn’t create hate, racism and division, he just amplified it like nobody in this country ever has. But there’s no point in discussing this, I’m not changing the mind of any Trump supporter that’s for sure. 

 
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Capella said:
Biden’s watch as a.......senator. For one of our smallest states. You must really be confused as to how the system works. 
 

And Trump didn’t create hate, racism and division, he just amplified it like nobody in this country ever has. But there’s no point in discussing this, I’m not changing the mind of any Trump supporter that’s for sure. 
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Conveniently forget his 8 years as VP?

 
gianmarco said:
No you don't.

Stop lying.
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San Antonio Exrpess?  

Yes I do. I'm intimate with the company that currently has 2 billion dollars of these contracts. I personally oversaw the border walls put up around El Paso and McAllen under GWB and Obama. I know the guy that is in charge of the border wall just south of Tuscan going on right this second. I saw the photos in a webex meeting not two months ago near scheduled completion date. He is a very good friend of mine. Would you like me to ask him for the photos just to prove internet gianmarco guy wrong in this politcal climate?   Or should we just let you live in the media bubble of the, lol, San Antonio Express for a measly 20 miles of border wall? 

 
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Widbil83 said:
Here we go @Mr.Pack , the first installment of Trump supporters helping you vote for President Trump is this post.

Have you ever heard of a Qanon or white suprematists group burning down, looting or destroying a city In the last 6 months?
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Jfc. That's your opening salvo? That Qanon or white supremacists are the lesser of two evils?

Talk about fiscal policy. Immigration. Military stance. Anything but Q or Proud Boys aren't so bad.

This is why I know we're screwed either way.

 
EZD222 said:
Jfc. That's your opening salvo? That Qanon or white supremacists are the lesser of two evils?

Talk about fiscal policy. Immigration. Military stance. Anything but Q or Proud Boys aren't so bad.

This is why I know we're screwed either way.
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Good point, wonder why that was question #1 on MSNBC town hall.  So stupid. 

 
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