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I'm still undecided. (1 Viewer)

jm192 said:
Well since he won’t answer on ACTUAL court packing—I assume that’s what happens if/once he wins.  No reason to dodge the question if you’re taking the uncontroversial approach.

Actual court packing being expansion of the SCOTUS to a point your side has the majority.
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Trump won't answer the question as to whether he'll leave office if he loses. I assume then that you're assuming he won't? And, upon that assumption/belief, is that far worse than potential court packing?

Note: I'm not in support of any potential court packing and I wish Biden would commit to not doing it. And, I know the above is a bit of a whataboutism, but nonetheless I think it's fair to rope in Trump's noncommital response to leaving office if we're going to (reasonably) assume Biden is considering packing the courts based on his noncommital response to questions about the issue. 

 
Zow said:
Trump won't answer the question as to whether he'll leave office if he loses. I assume then that you're assuming he won't? And, upon that assumption/belief, is that far worse than potential court packing?

Note: I'm not in support of any potential court packing and I wish Biden would commit to not doing it. And, I know the above is a bit of a whataboutism, but nonetheless I think it's fair to rope in Trump's noncommital response to leaving office if we're going to (reasonably) assume Biden is considering packing the courts based on his noncommital response to questions about the issue. 
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Trump was asked about it in the Town Hall and said he would.  

 
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jm192 said:
Trump was asked about it in the Town Hall and said he would.  
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That's not accurate - he said he wants it fair and then went on a 2 minute rant full of lies about voter fraud.  So technically he said he would if it was fair but he has already said it's not fair so he's basically saying he won't.  I actually don't believe he'll be able to avoid it and he'll get pushed out by GOP leaders (if it happens).

 
jm192 said:
Well, no.

Biden refused to answer the question, again.

Trump said point blank he would leave if he lost.  
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Your post is not accurate - both have essentially said "it depends".  I'm at least willing to call Biden out for it - are you willing to do the same with Trump?

 
AAABatteries said:
Your post is not accurate - both have essentially said "it depends".  I'm at least willing to call Biden out for it - are you willing to do the same with Trump?
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Trump said point blank if he loses he will leave.  "But I want it to be fair."  There's nothing to call out.  Go watch the replay of the Town Hall.

You criticize him for not answering it, then when he answers it, he's no better than Biden who has point blank refused to answer.  

 
The writing on the wall is that Donald Trump will declare victory in the election 5 minutes after the polls close, if not sooner than that, and begin lawsuits right away. I also wouldn't be surprised if he starts declaring himself the winner within the next couple of days as a "preview". If anyone thinks he's just going to leave if he loses, that's so not what Donald Trump is going to do it's incredible. 

 
To help out those following along:

The state of play: Biden said he has "not been a fan" of expanding the court because it would change the court's makeup depending on who the president is. But he signaled he would be "open to considering what happens" if Republicans push through Barrett's confirmation before the election without proper debate in the Senate.
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“Well, we’ll have to see what happens. You know that. I’ve been complaining very strongly about the ballots. And the ballots are a disaster,” Trump said at a news conference at the White House.
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Both are saying it depends on other things.  Both are bad - there is one difference and Trump has essentially already claimed there will be fraud so he gets to control whether his depends is acted on - Biden has no control over whether Barrett gets confirmed.

 
jm192 said:
Trump said point blank if he loses he will leave.  "But I want it to be fair."  There's nothing to call out.  Go watch the replay of the Town Hall.

You criticize him for not answering it, then when he answers it, he's no better than Biden who has point blank refused to answer.  
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Your post is not accurate.

 
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AAABatteries said:
Your post is not accurate - both have essentially said "it depends".  I'm at least willing to call Biden out for it - are you willing to do the same with Trump?
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@jm192 - curious if you will call out Trump for giving himself an out on this.  Biden should be scorned for doing it and either not address it at all from the beginning or not give a non-answer.  Trump shouldn't give any qualifiers either - especially as the idea of it being a fair election shouldn't be up to him, that's not his job.

 
jm192 said:
He said "the answer is yes, i will."  

You're mad when he won't answer it.  Then when he says yes, it's not good enough.  
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Yes I will IF something happens is not answering it.  It isn't good enough just like Biden's answer isn't good enough.  Are you willing to call Trump out for it?

 
"Sure, honey I won't have an affair IF you don't make me mad" - see how that answer goes over with your wife and try to convince her you said you wouldn't have an affair.

 
AAABatteries said:
Yes I will IF something happens is not answering it.  It isn't good enough just like Biden's answer isn't good enough.  Are you willing to call Trump out for it?
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He said I want it to be fair.

The horror.

I don't seriously see a world in which he can refuse to leave office.  I've never taken it seriously.  If he loses, he will be removed.  But again, you're mad when he won't answer.  You're mad when he answers.  At least he answered.  You're comparing it to Biden who has repeatedly said "No, I won't answer it"

 
AAABatteries said:
"Sure, honey I won't have an affair IF you don't make me mad" - see how that answer goes over with your wife and try to convince her you said you wouldn't have an affair.
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It's more like--I won't have an affair as long as Joe doesn't cheat.  I think my wife would agree that neither of us cheating is reasonable.

 
jm192 said:
He said I want it to be fair.

The horror.

I don't seriously see a world in which he can refuse to leave office.  I've never taken it seriously.  If he loses, he will be removed.  But again, you're mad when he won't answer.  You're mad when he answers.  At least he answered.  You're comparing it to Biden who has repeatedly said "No, I won't answer it"
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I want it to be fair too and I also don't think he can lose and stay.  But I've been surprised before by what he's managed to get away with.  His answer is basically the same as Biden's because Biden said it would depend on what they do about Barrett.  It's the same thing, except you won't call Trump out for it.  I'm happy to call Biden out for it - it's wrong.

I'm happy to move on though because I think our positions on this are pretty clear at this point.

 
jm192 said:
He said I want it to be fair.

The horror.

I don't seriously see a world in which he can refuse to leave office.  I've never taken it seriously.  If he loses, he will be removed.  But again, you're mad when he won't answer.  You're mad when he answers.  At least he answered.  You're comparing it to Biden who has repeatedly said "No, I won't answer it"
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I think Bidens stance is clear.

We’ll see what happens in the next 3 weeks.

If republicans, who held up garlands nomination (and other appointments) for months until a republican (or the next president) was elected, push through a justice weeks before an election contradicting their prior precedent, then it’s possible (or probable) that he will consider expanding the court. I don’t think increasing the number of justices is a priority unless there is a further usurping of appointment power by republicans in the senate. 

 
Even if there are 51 or 52 Democrats (including Sanders and King) in the Senate, I'm not sure there will be enough votes to Supreme Court pack.  I'll guess Joe Manchin would vote against and it would be a tough vote for purple state Senators.  

 
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MAC_32 said:
Well, yeah. There's no reason to believe anything that comes out of his mouth is the truth.
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Then why make a big deal when he won’t answer it?

Ooooh he won’t answer.  Trump is ending Democracy!!

Then he answers it and you yell he’s lying.  Lol, why does it matter then?

 
I would also add to anyone who is undecided, I think the ability to handle a crisis is important. I think COVID gave us a clear glimpse than Trump does not have the stability, consistency and grit to handle a crisis. His messaging is all over the place. He doesn’t work well with others. He is very impatient. He often doesn’t listen to experts. He prefers to make gut calls. If we were to have another pandemic or god forbid a war, I do not trust him to handle it. 
 

@Mr.Pack

 
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jm192 said:
“Will you accept a peaceful transfer?” And the answer is, yes, I will. But I want it to be an honest election. And so does everybody else.

^^Copied and pasted.  Seems...like a yes. 
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In context, the bold does seem to muddy up whether he is giving an unequivocal yes. 

 
THIS IS AN UNEQUIVOCAL YES

(just in case you read it and somehow come to a different conclusion)

Savannah Guthrie: (21:17)
Well, let me ask… Okay. I’m glad you brought up the election, because I do want to ask about that. That’s another kind of leftover item. A lot of people have asked you, will you accept a peaceful transfer of power? You have said, repeatedly, “The only way we lose this election is, if it is rigged.” Now, that is simply not true. The fact is, either candidate can lose fair and square, without ballot fraud.

President Trump: (21:38)
Sure, they can. And do you know what?

Savannah Guthrie: (21:39)
So, will you accept the results of the election?

President Trump: (21:40)
Win or lose, that’s the way I want it to be. But when I see thousands of ballots, right? Unsolicited ballots, being given out by the millions, and thousands of them are dumped in dumpsters. And when you see ballots with the name Trump, military ballots, from our great military. And they’re dumped in garbage cans-

Savannah Guthrie: (21:59)
That is a handful… We could go all night, which we won’t.

President Trump: (22:01)
No, no, it’s happening every day.

Savannah Guthrie: (22:03)
But, we could go all night, one by one. A single case, a single day. You’re talking about 150 million votes. Your own FBI director says, there is no evidence of widespread fraud.

President Trump: (22:11)
Oh, really? Well, then he’s not doing a very good job. All you have to do is pick up the papers every day. 50,000 in Ohio, the great state of Ohio. 50,000 in another location, I think North Carolina. 500,000 applications in Virginia. No, no, there’s a tremendous problem.

President Trump: (22:29)
But let me just tell you, they talk about the peaceful transfer, right? They spied on my campaign and they got caught. And they spied heavily, on my campaign. And they tried to take down a duly elected sitting president. And then, they talk about, “Will you accept a peaceful transfer?” And the answer is, yes, I will. But I want it to be an honest election. And so does everybody else. When I see thousands of ballots dumped in a garbage can, and they happen to have my name on it? I’m not happy about that.

Savannah Guthrie: (22:57)
Okay, but just… Those are case, there is no, there is in fact, no evidence of widespread fraud. And you are sowing doubt about our democracy.

President Trump: (23:05)
Could I ask you, how can you say that?

Savannah Guthrie: (23:07)
Our democracy.

President Trump: (23:07)
How can you say that? You do read newspapers?

Savannah Guthrie: (23:08)
I do.

President Trump: (23:08)
You do watch the news?

Savannah Guthrie: (23:09)
Yes, I do.

President Trump: (23:09)
I know you read the news, but do you watch it?

Savannah Guthrie: (23:11)
I do.

President Trump: (23:12)
Because, every day, they’re talking about ballots that are corrupt, that are fraudulent.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:17)
And millions that are-

President Trump: (23:18)
Sure.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:19)
… being processed right now.

President Trump: (23:21)
Sure, sure. But you can win a race… Take a look at me. You can win a race by 1%.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:24)
So why are you laying the groundwork for that, right now?

President Trump: (23:27)
I’m not, I don’t want that to happen.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:29)
It’s like, if I go play tennis with my husband and I say, ” My ankle is hurting right now.”

President Trump: (23:31)
You know what? I don’t want that to happen. Savannah. I want it to be clean.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:35)
Okay.

President Trump: (23:35)
And I want… I really feel we’re going to win, but I want this to be clean.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:39)
Let’s get to questions.

President Trump: (23:39)
But it’s sort of ironic that you, and them, talk about the peaceful transfer when I spent three and a half years fighting off these maniacs. And now, it turns out, everything’s there. That they were the ones that dealt with Russia, and it’s too bad.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:54)
Okay.

President Trump: (23:55)
Peaceful transfer, I absolutely want that. But ideally, I don’t want to transfer, because I want to win.

Savannah Guthrie: (23:59)
Yes. And I think that, your words will probably reassure some folks. Let’s get to our first voter. 

 
jm192 said:
“Will you accept a peaceful transfer?” And the answer is, yes, I will. But I want it to be an honest election. And so does everybody else.

^^Copied and pasted.  Seems...like a yes. 
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“Yes” “but”...  and the but is his determination of fair an honest. The guy who screams about “unfair” more than any adult man I’ve ever seen in my life And has already been setting up that this is unfair and dishonest for weeks.  That’s a pretty big “but” and pretty far from point blank.  
 

note: i’m in no way pointing this out in defense of Biden not answering the court question. That’s unacceptable and bull#### too. Just merely agreeing with @Zow’s point.  

 
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I waivered for a bit as an undecided here recently.

I had been leaning toward anti-Trump most of the year, then begrudgingly leaning toward Biden once he won the nomination.  For a bit, I let all of the people around me start to convince me that Trump maybe isn't as bad as I thought and became undecided.  But then the debate happened and I remembered, oh yes, he is a lunatic.

Honestly, if Barrett is confirmed, the main reason I would vote for Trump has already been achieved.  At this point, I am just aiming for some stability and respectability in the world and Joe is better for those things.  I am a fairly conservative overall and think Trump is better for our economy, but the man just disgusts me to the point that I want him out of office more.

Biden/Harris 2020 :yucky:

 
Trump can say whatever he wants about staying in office if he loses. It’s not his decision to make. He’ll be out there mid-January once the blowout is confirmed in two weeks. Don’t really know why people are concerned about this. 

 
Mr.Pack said:
So I see people in the PSF making fun of people who are undecided, but here I am. Believe it or not I and my wife are on the fence and still have no clue who we are going to vote for, or if we will vote.

Voted for Trump in 2016 based on my hope that he would not be politics as usual, that things would change politically in Washington. Call me naïve and that's fine, I was, and still am fed up with Politics as we know it. I've said many times this country won't change politically until we have a viable 3rd party.

I'm not a Trump supporter. I do like a lot of the policies he's signed  and he is one of the few Presidents who's actually kept a lot of his campaign promises. He acts like a spoiled child and I hate that. If he had never found Twitter we'd be much better off, but he can't help himself and the next time he takes the high road will be the first. However the Dems fought him from the Inauguration with none of them showing up for it and it's been uphill ever since. Worst bipartisan politics I've ever seen. He's far from Presidential but we knew this coming in. We didn't know he was going to act like a moron day in and day out. Herein lies my dilemma.

I started watching the Town Hall with Biden last night and he really can be a bumbling fool at times. I did like what I heard so far and a vote for him would hopefully bring us back to a normality in this country. I need to hear more, especially his financial and tax policies. Raising taxes in my book is a vote killer, but I'm open right now.

I want this country to get back to normal. Blaming this all on one guy like a lot of you in the PSF and throughout the country do is laughable. Obama set the tone in his first term by stating that elections have consequences, get over it, I won. I don't think he was good for this country. I think Trump has been good for this country policy-wise for sure, but I don't know if I can overlook the ####storm that follows him.

Can I bite the bullet for some type of normalcy for 4 years? Can I trust he will serve all 4 years? That may be the biggest knock on a Biden vote for me, President Harris is not something I ever want.

Flame away. But I am undecided.
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Sorry Im late to the thread.

Whichever party you choose, please do vote.  Its important that all voices are heard.

 
Jayrod said:
I waivered for a bit as an undecided here recently.

I had been leaning toward anti-Trump most of the year, then begrudgingly leaning toward Biden once he won the nomination.  For a bit, I let all of the people around me start to convince me that Trump maybe isn't as bad as I thought and became undecided.  But then the debate happened and I remembered, oh yes, he is a lunatic.

Honestly, if Barrett is confirmed, the main reason I would vote for Trump has already been achieved.  At this point, I am just aiming for some stability and respectability in the world and Joe is better for those things.  I am a fairly conservative overall and think Trump is better for our economy, but the man just disgusts me to the point that I want him out of office more.

Biden/Harris 2020 :yucky:
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I'm curious how that worked - I'm in a similar boat with lots of people around me that will vote for Trump but honestly none of them try to convince me Trump isn't bad - it's always pointing out that the other side is worse or that you can't vote for the other side because of X.  If they really did try to say that Trump isn't that bad - what was their reasoning?  Was it just that he's treated unfairly by MSM or is it something else? 

 
jm192 said:
He said I want it to be fair.

The horror.
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Hasn't he stated multiple times that he "can't" lose this election if it's a fair election? So by his own definition when he loses the election it has been rigged(in his mind at least). 

Trump: 'The only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged'

Which shouldn't surprise anyone. Wasn't he calling the last election rigged right up until someone had to tell him that had actually won? Then, it suddenly wasn't a rigged election anymore.

 
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BoltBacker said:
Hasn't he stated multiple times that he "can't" lose this election if it's a fair election? So by his own definition when he loses the election it has been rigged(in his mind at least). 

Trump: 'The only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged'

Which shouldn't surprise anyone. Wasn't he calling the last election rigged right up until someone had to tell him that had actually won? Then, it suddenly wasn't a rigged election anymore.
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Debatable

 
Ilov80s said:
I would also add to anyone who is undecided, I think the ability to handle a crisis is important. I think COVID gave us a clear glimpse than Trump does not have the stability, consistency and grit to handle a crisis. His messaging is all over the place. He doesn’t work well with others. He is very impatient. He often doesn’t listen to experts. He prefers to make gut calls. If we were to have another pandemic or god forbid a war, I do not trust him to handle it. 
 

@Mr.Pack
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I wouldn't think that many people would have to look farther than this, especially fueled by the comments this week calling Fauci and scientists idiots, and the culture of "fake news" leading to people seemingly thinking youtube and Qanon are places for the real truth.  I consider both of these things to be very dangerous for our country as a whole.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I wouldn't think that many people would have to look farther than this, especially fueled by the comments this week calling Fauci and scientists idiots, and the culture of "fake news" leading to people seemingly thinking youtube and Qanon are places for the real truth.  I consider both of these things to be very dangerous for our country as a whole.  
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Right. It worries me if we were attacked and had to go to war, what would he say about our allies? What would he say about our generals? If we lost a battle, who would he throw under the bus? Would he have the fortitude to carry it through and keep the Nation strong? The handling of COVID has been a history lesson in short sightedness, poor planning, inconsistent messaging, irrational decision making and general dysfunction. He might be “fine” when things are humming and everything is well but when actual crisis comes, we need a leader not an entertainer. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Right. It worries me if we were attacked and had to go to war, what would he say about our allies? What would he say about our generals? If we lost a battle, who would he throw under the bus? Would he have the fortitude to carry it through and keep the Nation strong? The handling of COVID has been a history lesson in short sightedness, poor planning, inconsistent messaging, irrational decision making and general dysfunction. He might be “fine” when things are humming and everything is well but when actual crisis comes, we need a leader not an entertainer. 
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This is the number one thing that I've been grateful for during the last four years and it's also something I was wrong about.  I thought there was a good chance Trump was going to play little General and get us caught up in some needless engagements (or even a war).  To his credit, he hasn't really done that (that I'm aware of) -  so I was wrong about that.

 
Navy Admiral Bill McRaven, who led the Seal Team Raid to kill Bin Laden, has this to say in a new op-ed in the WSJ:

"Truth be told, I am a pro-life, pro-Second Amendment, small-government, strong-defense and a national-anthem-standing conservative. But, I also believe that black lives matter, that the Dreamers deserve a path to citizenship, that diversity and inclusion are essential to our national success, that education is the great equalizer, that climate change is real and that the First Amendment is the cornerstone of our democracy. Most important, I believe that America must lead in the world with courage, conviction and a sense of honor and humility."

"I voted for Joe Biden."

"Now, the world no longer looks up to America. They have been witness to our dismissiveness, our lack of respect and our transactional approach to global issues. They have seen us tear up our treaties, leave our allies on the battlefield and cozy up to despots and dictators. They have seen our incompetence in handling the pandemic and the wildfires. They have seen us struggle with social injustice. They no longer think we can lead, because they have seen an ineptness and a disdain for civility that is beyond anything in their memory. But, without American leadership the world will indeed be transformed, just not in the way we hope."

 
Capella said:
Trump can say whatever he wants about staying in office if he loses. It’s not his decision to make. He’ll be out there mid-January once the blowout is confirmed in two weeks. Don’t really know why people are concerned about this. 
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Its just one more example of Trump manipulating the media by getting them to focus on an irrelevant shiny object rather than on the dumpster fire that is unfolding in our country. It is a complete non-issue, but for whatever reason the media is drawn to it.

 
@Mr.Pack where we at here good buddy. Do you really want to vote for big Democrat Tech censorship and a state run media? Because that’s what you get when you vote for Biden. Don’t let yourself be an accessory to that.

 
dkp993 said:
100% what I will be doing.  
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This is surprising to hear from people that have been decidedly anti-Trump. Now, I'm in CA so it's a moot point, but I am having a heck of a time with 3rd party, leaving the top of the ticket blank, or voting for Biden/Harris. I will certainly not cast a ballot for Trump.

I'd prefer not to vote, actually.

As for advice to Mr. Pack, I can't possibly know all of his caveats about who to vote for. What I can say is that a vote for Trump or not Biden/Harris in Wisconsin -- and remember this comes as a conservative as long as I've been an adult -- is a vote that is cast for anti-democratic, anti-diplomatic, and anti-free market impulses, especially those pertaining to trade. All of these three stances were once the Republican Party's raison d'etre as near as the year 2000. They are no longer post-Bush and post-Trump. If you see yourself as a classical liberal, note that Trump embodies virtually none of the norms or accepted procedures of democracy. He is a demagogue in waiting, a huckster with the impulses of a tyrant. I cannot strongly suggest enough that you do not vote for him.

 
To me the only real difference will be we will have more war under Biden and Biden will be in the media far less.  

 
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