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The Great 2020 All Time Television Draft: The Simpsons is judged the greatest show of all time


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30 minutes ago, Zow said:

I'll be honest though it's a tough pill to swallow taking a very highly rated and award-winning show (with awards for the specific category) and have it be very much docked for it not really being a part of a category that it won awards for. 

Yeah, that's the downfall of these drafts and not having categories defined from the jump.  

We should start that way and have judges do their best ranking them based on that, not have a judge come in during the draft or at the end and tell us we drafted wrong. 

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53 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Yeah, that's the downfall of these drafts and not having categories defined from the jump.  

We should start that way and have judges do their best ranking them based on that, not have a judge come in during the draft or at the end and tell us we drafted wrong. 

I thought Mrs. R was pretty clear from the start what she thought were and were not good documentaries, with a number of drafters changing their picks when faced with her scorn. I think she was also pretty ‘meh’ with some of the docuseries when they were taken. 

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11 hours ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

 

3 pts  -  Last Dance

A documentary series about Jordan's last season with the Bulls.  This would have done better if it hadn't been influenced by Jordan himself (outside of his interviews).  He had a fair bit of imput in the product, which calls into question the quality of info here.  Unless you are really into Jordan, this just doesn't hold interest.  I'm not a basketball watcher, but there were lots of 30 For 30 episodes about basketball that were really good.  I'd watch those instead.

 

Okay, people.  Fire away.

I totally disagree with the bolded.  This was much more than just about Jordan it was more about the tole making deep championship runs year after year takes on the players and their mindset.  This was much more than just a Jordan documentary even if it was publicized that way.  I can understand it not being someone's cup of tea but the bold was a big miss of a statement.

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16 minutes ago, Yo Mama said:

I thought Mrs. R was pretty clear from the start what she thought were and were not good documentaries, with a number of drafters changing their picks when faced with her scorn. I think she was also pretty ‘meh’ with some of the docuseries when they were taken. 

I also think that some were already taken, like Planet Earth.  Wasnt most of the argument about my ideas vs Planet Earth and how they were different? 

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6 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I also think that some were already taken, like Planet Earth.  Wasnt most of the argument about my ideas vs Planet Earth and how they were different? 

You’re right, I think that’s probably when the discussion of PE not being that great of a choice (good but not great) came up. 

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News personality scores

Below are my scores for news personality. I posted in here a few times that I was open to input/scores before finalizing rankings. I received a PM from one person offering to give some input on my preliminary rankings (I'll keep that person anonymous, but he/she is welcome to identify themselves). I appreciated their input and I made some tweaks to move some up and down, as well as some of other adjustments on additional personal reflections.

No real overriding criteria that I applied here. I tried giving a bit of a balance to both the "news" and to the "personality" pieces of it. I think I was originally higher on the "personality" piece, and the person who provided input was higher on the "news" aspect. I tried finding a balance between the two, but, at the end of the day, these rankings are my own.

 

16. (1 point) Jane Pauley

Ubiquitous presence on TV for over 40 years, from Today to Dateline to her current role on CBS Sunday Morning. Unfortunately, someone has to be last here. I'm just not sure she will have the memorable impact of others above her here.

15. (2 points) John McLaughlin

From a personality perspective, he is hard to beat. Dana Carvey's performance of McLaughlin on SNL was so on point, it was only a slight parody. Ushered in the age of talking heads on TV -- whatever your view of that is, his influence is hard to refute. "Bye bye!"

14. (3 points) Dan Rather

With Brokaw and Jennings, formed a part of the "Big Three" that dominated TV news for 20 years. He is the lowest of the three for me though, with his later career marred by the Killian documents controversy that ended with his termination by CBS News. Maybe he was just a scapegoat (as he claimed), but the buck stopped with him. “And that's a part of our world."

13. (4 points) Katie Couric

A storied career, including Today and the first solo female primetime TV news anchor. It does not factor into her ranking here, but she is a lot higher for me from a human perspective. Her advocacy of cancer research and awareness has helped countless lives and her impact there will outlive her.

12. (5 points) Douglas Edwards

Good evening everyone from coast to coast." Dan Rather called him the inventor of TV news anchoring. One of the early pioneers in the field after the move from radio.

11. (6 points) Ed Bradley

Great correspondent for 60 Minutes who covered a lot of important stories. Dogged journalist. One of the best from a hard news perspective.

10. (7 points) Tim Russert

My ranking of him may be a bit influenced by living inside the Capital Beltway for so long. An interview with Tim Russert was a rite of passage for any political wannabe. In a business where access matters to journalists and reporters, Russert knew he had the audience that politicians craved, giving him the upper hand — he had no problem holding a politician of any political stripe to the fire for their hypocrisies and policies. “If it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press."

9. (8 points) Tom Brokaw

A long career in TV news, and I'd rank the second best of the Big Three. There for the falling of the Berlin Wall, and covered so many other big events in history. One of the more universally respected news anchors of all-time.

8. (9 points) Harry Reasoner

Long-time journalist involved in coverage of many historical moments, such as Jack Ruby's killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. He was also involved in the launch of 60 Minutes.

7. (10 points) Peter Jennings

Jennings calm demeanor was omnipresent in so many important events. While the name "World News Tonight" had some branding behind it, I do think Jennings brought the macro/global picture into focus more than his competitors — which I found refreshing, particularly as the world shifted in the wake of the end of the Cold War.

6. (11 points) Ted Koppel

Nightline created a form of deep-dive journalism that could have paved the way for more in-depth discourse on 24 hour cable news. Alas, cable news has gone in a different direction.

5. (12 points) Barbara Walters

Lengthy career filled with many memorable interviews and moments. Today, ABC Evening News, 20/20, and The View. Whereas Russert was one of the kings of political interviews, Barbara Walters expanded beyond U.S. political leaders to world leaders and celebrities. "A Barbara Walters Special" interview was an event.

4. (13 points) Mike Wallace

While a good knock on the door may be one from the Publishers Clearinghouse with some giant check and balloons, a bad knock on the door would be from Mike Wallace. A tough as nails journalist who brought a bit of theatre to the news. High on the personality side.

3. (14 points) Edward R. Murrow

One of the early pioneers. While just judging on TV, he first rose to prominence with his "This is London" radio broadcasts during the WWII blitz and was able to make transition to TV. Another one not worried about taking a hard line, he used his bully pulpit to help turn the tide against McCarthyism. “Good night, and good luck."

2. (15 points) David Brinkley

Close between him and the #1 for me. I went back and forth between them a lot. I was too young for the Huntley-Brinkley report, but This Week With David Brinkley was one of my favorites. He added a bit of wry, tongue-in-cheek humor and acerbic style to telling the news.

1. (16 points) Walter Cronkite

He was there for so many great or tragic moments in history. Cronkite's coverage of the JFK assassination, the moon landing and the Vietnam war has become the standard newsreel of those events. His commentary after his trip to Vietnam helped turn public opinion of the war ("It seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate"). "And that's the way it is."

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43 minutes ago, Yo Mama said:

You’re right, I think that’s probably when the discussion of PE not being that great of a choice (good but not great) came up. 

That's why I am more confused.  I thought Mrs r was arguing for PE because it told a narrative of climate change vs my ideas that had 0 narrative.  My memory isn't the greatest lately though.  

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Variety/Live Shows

A Variety Show (per Wikipedia) is entertainment made up of a variety of acts including musical performances, sketch comedy, magic, standup comedy, etc.; normally introduced by a master of ceremonies or host.  Also noted for often having a more involved audience.  I'm starting the reviews this way because quite a few shows selected are in my opinion not full variety shows (or in a few cases not even in the ballpark), and will rank lower than those that better fit the category.  Further details as rankings are being listed.

Missed opportunities:  How in the heck did nobody draft the Texaco Star Theatre (aka The Milton Berle Show)?  Uncle Miltie was THE original TV star, established the variety format on TV, was a driving force in people buying their original TV sets, and owned audience shares that were mind boggling.  Absolute top 3 pick that nobody took.  Not nearly as important but still decent point scorers are things like The Lawrence Welk Show (lasted forever), The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour (short lived only because they wouldn't bend the knee to the network), and Hee-Haw (brought a more regional/country oriented attitude to a format dominated by "city folk" entertainment).

The "Sorry, wrong office, please try down the hall" Tier:

#16 (1 point):  Last Week Tonight.  I love this show, and John Oliver is a hoot.  However, in no way does this fit.  It's a comedy news show with basically one man behind a desk.

#15 (2 points):  The Daily Show.  Another comedy news show, gains an extra point over Last Week Tonight due to it spending part of its time as masquerading as a talk show for slightly more variety.
 

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Variety/Live Shows

The "Sketch Comedy, or just for laughs" Tier:

#14 (3 points):  Mr. Show with Bob and Dave.
#13 (4 points):  Chapelle's Show.
#12 (5 points):  SCTV.
#11 (6 points):  In Living Color.

One set of comments for all 4 shows.  These shows all fall short of being a Variety Show in my opinion - they basically only show one type of entertainment: the short comedy skit.  Here you have ensemble casts doing comedy bits, but no other options - no variety of acts, and for the most part (there are exceptions) no guests, no musical bits, no live audience interaction, and aside from Dave Chapelle's standup routines no host.  This is not to say they weren't good at what they did, there's some excellent comedy here.  Since comedy is the entire point for these shows, I've ranked these based on my personal opinion of which was the funniest - but even if you don't agree with my sense of humor, they can't break out of this tier against shows that better fit the format.
 

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Variety/Live Shows

The "Special Cases, or it qualifies, but..." Tier:

#10 (7 points):  The Mickey Mouse Club.  Even though this fits the defination of a variety show, it's really a kid's show, limiting it's appeal to that specific age group.  I have a hard time ranking it above shows that have a broader attraction potential (although Annette tried to bring "broader attraction" to the show all by herself).

#9 (8 points):  The Late Show with David Letterman.  Talk show, not variety show, although heavily influenced by the variety format.  Most of the show's time is spent in interviews, but has skits, music acts, comedy bits, live audience interaction - all of which came directly from variety shows.  I have to rank this lower than the other talk show on the list since it's more focused on the celebrity interview than the variety content.

#8 (9 points):  The Midnight Special.  The single hardest show on this list to rank, as every point has a "however" clause.  You had a host (err, DJ).  You had a variety of acts (um, rock music performers, and doing fairly long sets, too - maybe even a whole show).  Live performance (taped earlier).  Comedy acts (once every 6 or 7 weeks, honest!).  It does tick the boxes for a variety show, just in a weird way.  Screw it, I like it.

#7 (10 points):  Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In.  Another odd case.  It's more sketch comedy than pure variety show, but had much more elements of variety than the shows down in the sketch comedy tier.  You had music acts, guest stars, dancing - it was more like a variety/comedy show filtered through a 60's drug haze.

#6 (11 points):  The Tonight Show.  Much like David Letterman, this is a talk show, not a variety show - not surprising, since Letterman's show is basically a rip of Carson's.  However, The Tonight Show had a much larger set of variety elements - a broader selection of guests and acts, more skits, more comedy - much more entertainment value, and a higher percentage of variety as opposed to straight interviews.  Actually, because of the importance of this show, it deserves to be ranked higher, but is let down by being a variety "influenced" show in a category for variety shows - everything ranked higher is a full variety show in all aspects.

#5 (12 points):  The Muppet Show.  Yes, it's a variety show in all respects.  A good one, no matter what Statler and Waldorf say.  And yes, it's hosted by (and stars) Muppets.  Deal.
 

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Variety/Live Shows

The "Best of the Best Variety Show" Tier:

#4 (13 points):  Your Show of Shows.  Highly influential live variety show from the early 50's.  This show took the basic format Milton Berle was running, and developed elements of situation comedy over the mostly vaudeville style comedy used before.  They had possibly the best writing crew ever (Mel Brooks, Neil Simon, Carl Reiner, Selma Diamond, and more), and Sid Caesar and Imogene Coca were riots onstage.

#3 (14 points):  The Ed Sullivan Show.  Ed Sullivan translated the full vaudeville theater show experience to TV entertainment and made it work for years, and was so important to the entertainment community that an appearance on Sullivan was the hallmark of success in the 50's and early 60's - almost a guarantee of stardom.  It was a major introduction point for many foreign acts to American audiences.  It was also notable for giving wider audience recognition to black artists and to things like rock music.  While Ed Sullivan personally had all the personality of a block of wood, he did understand that if an act was entertaining, it would draw viewership.  This lead to a show that updated and developed with the times better than most did.

#2 (15 points):  The Carol Burnett Show.  (Note that this is Mrs. R's pick)  In my opinion the last great classic variety show before the format changed/vanished at the end of the 70's.  An absolute laugh riot, this show was so funny the cast often had a hard time keeping in character.  Brought the audience participation to greater prominance with a extended Q&A session between Burnett and the crowd that would get some wild, unscripted answers.  Maybe not as influential as Sullivan had been before it, but superior writing and the fabulous ongoing cast and sheer spirit of fun made it awesome to watch.

#1 (16 points):  Saturday Night Live.  Live television, while it had been very prominant at the start of the TV age, basically disappeared over time.  Even shows like Ed Sullivan and Carol Burnett taped and did some editing (or censoring, depending on who's hips were onscreen...).  With one major, notable exception:  SNL.  A launching ground for movie stars, comedians, musicians - heck, even some sketches from the show went on to life after SNL.  More than any other show on this list, it became more than "must see TV" - it became the thing that people would talk about the next week at school or work.  While it may not have the massive following it did in the early years, after 4 decades (and the most Primetime Emmy nominations in the history of TV), it's managed to stay relevant and get talked about to this day.

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I thought Daily Show had a shot of double digit points when I drafted it.  

Note that I didn't comment on the quality of the show - I quite liked it when Stewart was doing it, not so much with Noah.  But I defy you to show me any way that it qualifies as a variety show.  

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Variety/Live Shows

16 Pts - Saturday Night Live
15 Pts - The Carol Burnett Show
14 Pts - The Ed Sullivan Show
13 Pts - Your Show of Shows
12 Pts - The Muppet Show
11 Pts - The Tonight Show
10 Pts - Rowan and Martins Laugh In
9 Pts - The Midnight Special
8 Pts - The Late Show with David Letterman
7 Pts - The Mickey Mouse Club
6 Pts - In Living Color
5 Pts - SCTV
4 Pts - Chapelle Show
3 Pts - Mr. Show with Bob and David
2 Pts - The Daily Show
1 Pt - Last Week Tonight
 

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2 minutes ago, Val Rannous said:

Variety/Live Shows

The "Sketch Comedy, or just for laughs" Tier:

#14 (3 points):  Mr. Show with Bob and Dave.
#13 (4 points):  Chapelle's Show.
#12 (5 points):  SCTV.
#11 (6 points):  In Living Color.

One set of comments for all 4 shows.  These shows all fall short of being a Variety Show in my opinion - they basically only show one type of entertainment: the short comedy skit.  Here you have ensemble casts doing comedy bits, but no other options - no variety of acts, and for the most part (there are exceptions) no guests, no musical bits, no live audience interaction, and aside from Dave Chapelle's standup routines no host.  This is not to say they weren't good at what they did, there's some excellent comedy here.  Since comedy is the entire point for these shows, I've ranked these based on my personal opinion of which was the funniest - but even if you don't agree with my sense of humor, they can't break out of this tier against shows that better fit the format.
 

In Living Color was known for its live music performances, which started in Season 2 with Queen Latifah as their first performer (appearing again in the third season). Additional musical acts who appeared were Heavy D, Public Enemy, Kris Kross, En Vogue, Eazy-E, Da Youngsta's, Monie Love, Onyx, 3rd Bass, MC Lyte, Arrested Development, Jodeci, Mary J. Blige, Tupac Shakur, Father MC, Gang Starr, The Pharcyde, Simple E, Us3, Digable Planets, Pete Rock & CL Smooth, Nice & Smooth, Wreckx-n-Effect, A.D.O.R., Redman, Showbiz and A.G., Patra, Naughty By Nature, Lords of the Underground, Prince Markie Dee, A Tribe Called Quest, and Leaders of the New School.

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8 minutes ago, rick6668 said:

In Living Color was known for its live music performances, which started in Season 2 with Queen Latifah as their first performer (appearing again in the third season). Additional musical acts who appeared were Heavy D, Public Enemy, Kris Kross, En Vogue, Eazy-E, Da Youngsta's, Monie Love, Onyx, 3rd Bass, MC Lyte, Arrested Development, Jodeci, Mary J. Blige, Tupac Shakur, Father MC, Gang Starr, The Pharcyde, Simple E, Us3, Digable Planets, Pete Rock & CL Smooth, Nice & Smooth, Wreckx-n-Effect, A.D.O.R., Redman, Showbiz and A.G., Patra, Naughty By Nature, Lords of the Underground, Prince Markie Dee, A Tribe Called Quest, and Leaders of the New School.

Hmm, didn't remember seeing a music act on most of the shows of this I watched in period - it was an "every so often" sort of thing if I remember correctly.  It's possible I'm remembering more of the first season, as I only watched it sporadically.

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16 minutes ago, Val Rannous said:

Note that I didn't comment on the quality of the show - I quite liked it when Stewart was doing it, not so much with Noah.  But I defy you to show me any way that it qualifies as a variety show.  

Despite winning Emmy awards 10 years in a row for Outstanding Variety Series?

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26 minutes ago, Val Rannous said:

Missed opportunities:  Not nearly as important but still decent point scorers are things like The Lawrence Welk Show (lasted forever), The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour (short lived only because they wouldn't bend the knee to the network), and Hee-Haw (brought a more regional/country oriented attitude to a format dominated by "city folk" entertainment).

Considered both Lawrence Welk and Hee-Haw for Pitchfork at draft's end. Went with a show I liked better to spotlight it a little bit (Midnight Special).

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3 hours ago, Yo Mama said:

I thought Mrs. R was pretty clear from the start what she thought were and were not good documentaries, with a number of drafters changing their picks when faced with her scorn. I think she was also pretty ‘meh’ with some of the docuseries when they were taken. 

I had already taken Planet Earth. Was pretty stuck thereafter. 

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Despite winning Emmy awards 10 years in a row for Outstanding Variety Series?

Only because they didn't have a talk show category then - although it's barely a talk show, either.  And in it's period, outside of SNL, name me an actual variety show - they really didn't exist at that point.

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2 hours ago, Yo Mama said:

You’re right, I think that’s probably when the discussion of PE not being that great of a choice (good but not great) came up. 

I took PE and don't recall that.

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One thing to consider about the Variety/Live category as I believe @timschochet conceived it:

The variety-show aspects of the individual selections are not meant to be litmus tests. Rather, the wide Variety/Live category squashes together two separate, narrower categories -- Variety shows and Live shows. So a Live program with no variety-show traits was intended (I think) to still be OK for the category.

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17 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I don't know the answer to this: Is The Daily Show a live program?

No. Taped in advance. They frequently say stuff like “for the full interview, check out the web site” because they cut it for time reasons.

ETA: They do frequently have musical guests on though (not every night, but pretty frequently). So, if that is the criteria, I feel like the show should have gotten credit for that.

Edited by Don Quixote
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the flaw, as someone *cough* pointed out at the beginning, is that the the world of comedy between sitcom and variety was not addressed in the categories and that is actually what television has done best, if not most.

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39 minutes ago, rick6668 said:

In Living Color was known for its live music performances, which started in Season 2 with Queen Latifah as their first performer (appearing again in the third season). Additional musical acts who appeared were Heavy D, Public Enemy, Kris Kross, En Vogue, Eazy-E, Da Youngsta's, Monie Love, Onyx, 3rd Bass, MC Lyte, Arrested Development, Jodeci, Mary J. Blige, Tupac Shakur, Father MC, Gang Starr, The Pharcyde, Simple E, Us3, Digable Planets, Pete Rock & CL Smooth, Nice & Smooth, Wreckx-n-Effect, A.D.O.R., Redman, Showbiz and A.G., Patra, Naughty By Nature, Lords of the Underground, Prince Markie Dee, A Tribe Called Quest, and Leaders of the New School.

Going strictly from memory ... but wasn't In Living Color's musical act typically the closing act? As in ... they would actually be showing the end credits over the musical number?

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24 minutes ago, Val Rannous said:
26 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Despite winning Emmy awards 10 years in a row for Outstanding Variety Series?

Only because they didn't have a talk show category then - although it's barely a talk show, either.  And it it's period, outside of SNL, name me an actual variety show - they really didn't exist at that point.

Yup - the award categories are similar to us in this draft - some things are pigeonholed because there's nowhere else to put them.

I agree - Daily Show / Last Week Tonight / etc are not variety shows, no matter what the award says.  

Good rankings!

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4 minutes ago, jwb said:
29 minutes ago, Val Rannous said:
31 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Despite winning Emmy awards 10 years in a row for Outstanding Variety Series?

Only because they didn't have a talk show category then - although it's barely a talk show, either.  And it it's period, outside of SNL, name me an actual variety show - they really didn't exist at that point.

Yup - the award categories are similar to us in this draft - some things are pigeonholed because there's nowhere else to put them.

I agree - Daily Show / Last Week Tonight / etc are not variety shows, no matter what the award says.  

Yeah ... upon reviewing that particular Emmy Awards nominations over the years, it's clear how much of a catch-all that category really is.

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12 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:
27 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I don't know the answer to this: Is The Daily Show a live program?

No. Taped in advance. They frequently say stuff like “for the full interview, check out the web site” because they cut it for time reasons.

Last Week Tonight is presumably similar, then.

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5 minutes ago, jwb said:

Yup - the award categories are similar to us in this draft - some things are pigeonholed because there's nowhere else to put them.

I agree - Daily Show / Last Week Tonight / etc are not variety shows, no matter what the award says.  

Good rankings!

 

Just now, Doug B said:

Yeah ... upon reviewing that particular Emmy Awards nominations over the years, it's clear how much of a catch-all that category really is.

So is the solution that we don't draft those great shows?

My understanding was that we use the Emmys as a guide for things that are hard to define.  We did that for actors/characters as far as if they should go to comedy/drama/supporting/lead.   It's not a talk show, it's not a sit-com, so my other understanding is that variety/live as a bit of a catch-all because of all of the above.   

Again, I just echo the frustration that it happens in general with the judging and we get these situations after the fact where they say that's not X, when for awards and on wiki it's labeled the same as the other selections.  Same thing with what was being argued about the documentaries - I just found it amusing that it was coming from the same household.  

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37 minutes ago, Val Rannous said:

Only because they didn't have a talk show category then - although it's barely a talk show, either.  And it it's period, outside of SNL, name me an actual variety show - they really didn't exist at that point.

So you are basically saying that it does a variety of things, and doesn't focus solely on one thing?

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6 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:
12 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Yeah ... upon reviewing that particular Emmy Awards nominations over the years, it's clear how much of a catch-all that category really is.

So is the solution that we don't draft those great shows?

That would only be a solution if strictly regarding Val's post hoc judging. At the time we were taking Variety/Live shows, we didn't know who was judging or what the criteria were going to be.

On the contrary, I'm glad all 16 of the Variety/Live shows taken got recognized. Whatever criteria the eventual judge was going to use, some solid TV programs were going to score low.

Edited by Doug B
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46 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:

No. Taped in advance. They frequently say stuff like “for the full interview, check out the web site” because they cut it for time reasons.

ETA: They do frequently have musical guests on though (not every night, but pretty frequently). So, if that is the criteria, I feel like the show should have gotten credit for that.

Correct.  I didn't think that variety = sketch show for our purposes.  

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37 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Going strictly from memory ... but wasn't In Living Color's musical act typically the closing act? As in ... they would actually be showing the end credits over the musical number?

The show ended on this, but the whole number wasn't just in the credits, just the end.

https://theboombox.com/best-in-living-color-musical-performances/

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41 minutes ago, Doug B said:

That would only be a solution if strictly regarding Val's post hoc judging. At the time we were taking Variety/Live shows, we didn't know who was judging or what the criteria were going to be.

On the contrary, I'm glad all 16 of the Variety/Live shows taken got recognized. Whatever criteria the eventual judge was going to use, some solid TV programs were going to score low.

Agreed on your second point. I was going to gripe about The Tonight Show’s placing (mainly about the heavy weight placed on Variety compared to Live), but looking at the list there’s not a lot ranked above it I’d move below Tonight Show (except maybe the muppets). 
 

Tough list to rank. 

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RANKING CHANGE

Upon further analysis, In Living Color does have better qualifications than I remembered.  Let's move it up a couple of spots to just behind The Midnight Special (changes are in bold):

16 Pts - Saturday Night Live
15 Pts - The Carol Burnett Show
14 Pts - The Ed Sullivan Show
13 Pts - Your Show of Shows
12 Pts - The Muppet Show
11 Pts - The Tonight Show
10 Pts - Rowan and Martins Laugh In
9 Pts - The Midnight Special
8 Pts - In Living Color
7 Pts - The Late Show with David Letterman
6 Pts - The Mickey Mouse Club

5 Pts - SCTV
4 Pts - Chapelle Show
3 Pts - Mr. Show with Bob and David
2 Pts - The Daily Show
1 Pt - Last Week Tonight

I'm not willing to budge on the bottom tier, though.  Just because they got lumped into an Emmy category that was used for "we don't know what else to do with these" doesn't make them qualify any better.  And if we just rank them on show quality and ignore the category requirements, you might as well say "Hey!  I saw a guy play a guitar on MASH once!  That qualifies, and it was a better show then Milton Berle's, right?!?"  Sorry, this is not the (obviously needed) miscellaneous category.

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1 minute ago, Val Rannous said:

RANKING CHANGE

Upon further analysis, In Living Color does have better qualifications than I remembered.  Let's move it up a couple of spots to just behind The Midnight Special (changes are in bold):

16 Pts - Saturday Night Live
15 Pts - The Carol Burnett Show
14 Pts - The Ed Sullivan Show
13 Pts - Your Show of Shows
12 Pts - The Muppet Show
11 Pts - The Tonight Show
10 Pts - Rowan and Martins Laugh In
9 Pts - The Midnight Special
8 Pts - In Living Color
7 Pts - The Late Show with David Letterman
6 Pts - The Mickey Mouse Club

5 Pts - SCTV
4 Pts - Chapelle Show
3 Pts - Mr. Show with Bob and David
2 Pts - The Daily Show
1 Pt - Last Week Tonight

I'm not willing to budge on the bottom tier, though.  Just because they got lumped into an Emmy category that was used for "we don't know what else to do with these" doesn't make them qualify any better.  And if we just rank them on show quality and ignore the category requirements, you might as well say "Hey!  I saw a guy play a guitar on MASH once!  That qualifies, and it was a better show then Milton Berle's, right?!?"  Sorry, this is not the (obviously needed) miscellaneous category.

So what is your exact definition of "variety show" then?  

I guess I am still shuked as to why they aren't such if they have musical acts, interviews, comedy sections, etc..  

Again, :deadhorse: but this is the exact reason why we should do this crap at the beginning of these drafts, or have the judges try better to adjust to what we were doing, not them dinging shows at the end for not living up to their specific definitions of a category.    This seems to happen at least a handful of times during these drafts from what I can tell, and really brings the process down, IMO.  

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16 minutes ago, Yo Mama said:

Agreed on your second point. I was going to gripe about The Tonight Show’s placing (mainly about the heavy weight placed on Variety compared to Live), but looking at the list there’s not a lot ranked above it I’d move below Tonight Show (except maybe the muppets). 
 

Tough list to rank. 

I assumed if I got any flack it would be for the Muppets coming in above The Tonight Show.  My defense is that both are excellent shows, and The Muppet Show is spot on for it's full run, while The Tonight Show becomes less so after Carson leaves (and isn't live after the 50's, and is only variety adjacent for its whole run).

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6 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

So what is your exact definition of "variety show" then?  

I guess I am still shuked as to why they aren't such if they have musical acts, interviews, comedy sections, etc..  

Again, :deadhorse: but this is the exact reason why we should do this crap at the beginning of these drafts, or have the judges try better to adjust to what we were doing, not them dinging shows at the end for not living up to their specific definitions of a category.    This seems to happen at least a handful of times during these drafts from what I can tell, and really brings the process down, IMO.  

A variety show is 1) multiple bits in one show that 2) are being done by different people and are preferably 3) different types of entertainment, and 4) usually has a host. Per Wikipedia:

"Variety show, also known as variety arts or variety entertainment, is entertainment made up of a variety of acts including musical performances, sketch comedy, magic, acrobatics, juggling, and ventriloquism. It is normally introduced by a compère (master of ceremonies) or host. The variety format made its way from Victorian era stage to radio and then television."

Last Week Tonight:  one comedy bit running the entire show, starring one person, with the only difference from show to show being topic.

The Daily Show: matches the above, except it includes a small company extending the comedy bit (field reporters), and sometimes follows it with an interview.

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18 minutes ago, Val Rannous said:

A variety show is 1) multiple bits in one show that 2) are being done by different people and are preferably 3) different types of entertainment, and 4) usually has a host. Per Wikipedia:

"Variety show, also known as variety arts or variety entertainment, is entertainment made up of a variety of acts including musical performancessketch comedy, magic, acrobatics, juggling, and ventriloquism. It is normally introduced by a compère (master of ceremonies) or host. The variety format made its way from Victorian era stage to radio and then television."

Last Week Tonight:  one comedy bit running the entire show, starring one person, with the only difference from show to show being topic.

The Daily Show: matches the above, except it includes a small company extending the comedy bit (field reporters), and sometimes follows it with an interview.

wiki has a list of episodes from the show, and every one has a guest listed.    So from what I get from your post is that it didn't live up to #2 enough for you?    I honestly can't say what % they had with the field reporters or how often they had musical acts on, but IMO I think you are underestimating that aspect as well.  

Seems like it fits the wiki definition too, especially when you mix in part of the entertainment is interviews.   :shrug: 

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

wiki has a list of episodes from the show, and every one has a guest listed.    So from what I get from your post is that it didn't live up to #2 enough for you?    I honestly can't say what % they had with the field reporters or how often they had musical acts on, but IMO I think you are underestimating that aspect as well.  

Seems like it fits the wiki definition too, especially when you mix in part of the entertainment is interviews.   :shrug: 

I don't consider talk shows to be variety shows.  Same reason I didn't put The Tonight Show in the top 3.  Talk shows CAN have variety elements - in your case, 1 comedy bit done by one team of people.  Sorry.

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

So is the solution that we don't draft those great shows?

The last time we did the TV draft (gotta be 7 or 8 years ago), we had a wildcard category that became a dump for shows that really didn't fit anywhere else. Now that could mean Wild Kingdom and Last Week Tonight go against each other, but that's ok I guess. 

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1 minute ago, Val Rannous said:

I don't consider talk shows to be variety shows.  Talk shows CAN have variety elements - in this case, 1 comedy bit done by one team of people.  Sorry.

Cool, it's not a talk show either.  That is a part of the show.  You know, part of the variety of things it presents during it's run time.  

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