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Georgia: the Battle for the Senate (2 Viewers)

GoBirds said:
may be buried somewhere.
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They are not "buried somewhere." They could not be quicker to the draw in the press the day or two after Trump demanded $2000, in the MSM as you call it and everywhere else they could proclaim it for votes. Now, of course it was support that was entirely fake and without merit, and they know this, since they have a shell game thing in the Senate where they can make promises they know other Senators will bail them out from keeping, purely for votes. They don't get credit from me being that disingenuous. 

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
I don't think there's any such thing as making future generations pay monetary costs. We borrow money from bondholders to pay them back in the future; the bondholders who get paid back in the future will be from future generations. The intergenerational effects of deficit spending should be a wash. (There are other ways to harm future generations, like with carbon emissions, but I don't think covid relief is in that category.)
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Wait, what?!? You don't think future generations will be responsible for funding the deficit? Boy, if that's true why stop at $2000. Let's give everyone $50K. 

 
BigJim® said:
Wait, what?!? You don't think future generations will be responsible for funding the deficit? Boy, if that's true why stop at $2000. Let's give everyone $50K. 
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That would be bad for the present generation. It would lead either to inflation or to higher interest rates that would make commercial and retail borrowing harder and would crowd out private investments in factories, housing, etc.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Also, while means-testing makes sense philosophically, as a practical matter it will gum things up and slow them down. Sending everyone a check without making things complicated will be faster, and speed is important here. We're seeing a similar issue play out with the vaccines -- dividing people up into different categories and making sure no wrong people get them out of order as the doses expire. It probably would have been better just to let people line up and get them, first come first served, without regard to prioritized categorizations. There's a lot to be said for speed and simplicity in some contexts.
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Well, to be fair I should say I'm just barely in support of even funding need by increasing debt, so whether we can accomplish means testing is somewhat a moot point for me. JMHO, if our generation wants to support need, we should test our own fortitude and fund it ourselves. In reality, we're all too willing to pat ourselves on the back for funding with other people's money, and far too selfish to do it ourselves.   

 
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urbanhack said:
BREAKING:

@SenatorLoeffler

says she will object to the Electoral Colle certification process on Wednesday. 

:lmao:
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The calculus on this is interesting - you have to assume this means she at least thinks this helps her but I’m not sure that’s true.  If anything it may hurt her as I don’t think overturning the election is generally popular and anybody it is popular with was  already voting for her.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
That would be bad for the present generation. It would lead either to inflation or to higher interest rates that would make commercial and retail borrowing harder and would crowd out private investments in factories, housing, etc.
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That was tongue in cheek. Perhaps I can learn something here. My understanding is that presently we're paying <> $400B of our budget (via taxes) on interest alone. What you posted does seem to say future generations will need to come up with the money to pay bondholders. Is the point you are making that our deficit will not continue to climb, and that future repayment of debt is fully offset by future taking on of new debt? Strikes me as something that is not a wash.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Biden is right. It doesn't matter what Loeffler and Perdue say they support. If they win, McConnell will prevent the $2k from getting voted on.
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Short sighted, but those that will be swayed by it aren’t thinking too deeply. Why I think it could be a successful tactic. 

 
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BigJim® said:
My understanding is that presently we're paying <> $400B of our budget (via taxes) on interest alone.
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Yes, previous generations racked up government debt, so our generation is paying interest on it. But who are we paying that interest to? Current bondholders. And what generation do they belong to? Ours. So our generation is paying interest to our generation. Deficits have consequences, but they don't really pit different generations against each other so much as they help and hurt different people within each generation.

 
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bigbottom said:
Well, it’s a weird situation to be sure. Both Perdue and Loeffler are on record supporting the $2,000 stimulus, but it appears that the only way for Georgians to get it is to vote against them. 
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Yep, timing of this handout couldn’t be worse. 

 
GoBirds said:
Short sighted, but those that will be swayed by it aren’t thinking too deeply. Why I think it could be a successful tactic. 
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It's complicated because the run-off is partially about Ossoff vs. Perdue, but it's also partially about McConnell vs. Schumer.

In general, the Republicans benefit from emphasizing the McConnell vs. Schumer aspect because Georgia is still a slightly red state and the prospect of the Democrats controlling the White House and both houses of Congress is frightful. Plus, Loefler and Perdue are, as individuals, bad candidates in some ways.

But on the one particular issue of the popular $2k checks, Republicans really don't want to emphasize the McConnell vs. Schumer aspect because McConnell is the $2k deal-killer. So on the stimulus, they are emphasizing Loeffler's and Perdue's position over McConnell's ... even though if Loeffler and Perdue win, it's McConnell's position that will prevail.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
It's complicated because the run-off is partially about Ossoff vs. Perdue, but it's also partially about McConnell vs. Schumer.

In general, the Republicans benefit from emphasizing the McConnell vs. Schumer aspect because Georgia is still a slightly red state and the prospect of the Democrats controlling the White House and both houses of Congress is frightful. Plus, Loefler and Perdue are, as individuals, bad candidates in some ways.

But on the one particular issue of the popular $2k checks, Republicans really don't want to emphasize the McConnell vs. Schumer aspect because McConnell is the $2k deal-killer. So on the stimulus, they are emphasizing Loeffler's and Perdue's position over McConnell's ... even though if Loeffler and Perdue win, it's McConnell's position that will prevail.
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I don’t feel so good about it. I’ve been adding stocks thinking we have gridlock which I think is a good think....I’m worried I may wish I sold some. 

 
The 2K checks are pretty much the only thing Perdue / Loeffler / Trump and Dems have ever been in agreement on, in life, ever.

 
AAABatteries said:
The calculus on this is interesting - you have to assume this means she at least thinks this helps her but I’m not sure that’s true.  If anything it may hurt her as I don’t think overturning the election is generally popular and anybody it is popular with was  already voting for her.
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Well it's not "overturning the election", but yeah, it's probably pretty popular in GA.

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
urbanhack said:
Based on all the facts and everything we know, yes it is overturning the election.  
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According to everything you know, voting to object to the certification, overturns the election?
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Loeffler is attempting to overturn the election. There's just no other way to spin that. She has announced her intention to object to legally-certified results. It doesn't matter if she's doing it as some sort of symbolic protest (a la Barbara Boxer), and it doesn't matter if she believes the vote will fail. This isn't "Raising Arizona".

 
Sea Duck said:
NorvilleBarnes said:
urbanhack said:
Based on all the facts and everything we know, yes it is overturning the election.  
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According to everything you know, voting to object to the certification, overturns the election?
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Loeffler is attempting to overturn the election. There's just no other way to spin that. She has announced her intention to object to legally-certified results. It doesn't matter if she's doing it as some sort of symbolic protest (a la Barbara Boxer), and it doesn't matter if she believes the vote will fail. This isn't "Raising Arizona".
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This is shocking. I mean, you guys read the NYT and watch CNN so I know you two are much more informed on this than me. Did it "overturn the election" when Democrats did it? Or is this just a GOP perk?

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
This is shocking. I mean, you guys read the NYT and watch CNN so I know you two are much more informed on this than me. Did it "overturn the election" when Democrats did it? Or is this just a GOP perk?
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Playing the "both sides" game won't get you anywhere with me. Barbara Boxer voted to overturn an election, too.

 
I still don’t really believe that Ossoff and Warnock will win but if they do that puts a lot of pressure on the Democrats to get something done.  I’m hoping for Climate Change policy, sensible gun restrictions and infrastructure needs passed quickly but I won’t be holding my breath.

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
This is shocking. I mean, you guys read the NYT and watch CNN so I know you two are much more informed on this than me. Did it "overturn the election" when Democrats did it? Or is this just a GOP perk?
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I don’t watch CNN nor do I read the NYT.  

 
Sea Duck said:
Playing the "both sides" game won't get you anywhere with me. Barbara Boxer voted to overturn an election, too.
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Not really.  Kerry had conceded the election.  She objected to the electors from a single state to put focus on voter suppression in that state.  Even if the electors from Ohio were rejected, the outcome of the election would not have been affected.

 
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the rover said:
Not really.  Kerry had conceded the election.  She objected to the electors from a single state to put focus on voter suppression in that state.  Even if the electors from Ohio were rejected, the outcome of the election would not have been affected.
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From what I read, it appears that Loeffler may only be objecting to the Georgia result.

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
You've asked me not to say "wrong again" Sea Duck so please understand I'm exhausting tremendous will power here.

But just to be clear: You're claiming Loeffler announced her intention to vote to overthrow the election? 
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Yes. Motte-and-bailey act notwithstanding.

 
Thunderlips said:
Crowd seems a little flat tonight.  Did a credible source give the number of people there?  
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It's cold, about 45 degrees, for what could be Trump's last political speech. A lot of big names are there, including Mike Lee, Lindsay Graham, Ivanka, Don Jr.   Ivanka spoke but not Don Jr., a good call.

 
AAABatteries said:
I still don’t really believe that Ossoff and Warnock will win but if they do that puts a lot of pressure on the Democrats to get something done.  I’m hoping for Climate Change policy, sensible gun restrictions and infrastructure needs passed quickly but I won’t be holding my breath.
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On behalf of university students of mine, let me add to the list a resolution on DACA.

If the R's retain control, can/will anything happen?  Would an independent or moderate R or two vote for some of the above?  I sure hope so.  But with fears to the contrary, I'd rather take Dem control and trust that the wheels of government will move slowly enough and they don't get too crazy.

 
tri-man 47 said:
On behalf of university students of mine, let me add to the list a resolution on DACA.

If the R's retain control, can/will anything happen?  Would an independent or moderate R or two vote for some of the above?  I sure hope so.  But with fears to the contrary, I'd rather take Dem control and trust that the wheels of government will move slowly enough and they don't get too crazy.
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I’ll be honest, I’m unclear on how it’s allowed but it seems like McConnell just sits on anything he doesn’t like and doesn’t help him.  It seems crazy but hopefully if he’s still Speaker he allows votes on things like this.  Another I won’t hold my breath thing though.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Yes, previous generations racked up government debt, so our generation is paying interest on it. But who are we paying that interest to? Current bondholders. And what generation do they belong to? Ours. So our generation is paying interest to our generation. Deficits have consequences, but they don't really pit different generations against each other so much as they help and hurt different people within each generation.
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Ok, I clearly need to do more homework because I’m not following and do not want to detract further. What I thought I knew was *our* generation (post 1988) has ballooned our debt from $2T to $26T, and the result of this splurge is currently $400B of our annual GDP paying by interest only, and that annual interest payment, at a minimum, will burden our children, and their children, on debt WE incurred. That’s not even addressing repayment of the debt itself, and it is only increasing.

 
If crowd enthusiasm at Trump's rally in Dalton, Georgia is a barometer of tomorrow's outcome, the democrats will control the Senate. He's not connecting with the crowd, spending too much time reading a list of numbers and grievances. The crowd seems bored, maybe it's past their bedtime.

 
What America needs within the next decade: 

Investment in clean energy jobs (this is already happening in the private sector but govt could speed it up). 
 

Path to citizenship for those brought over as children. 
 

Public option or Medicare buy-in on ACA marketplace

Thomas and Alito to retire and replaced with moderates (wishful thinking I know) 

Restoration of voting rights act 

Allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices 

 
BigJim® said:
Ok, I clearly need to do more homework because I’m not following and do not want to detract further. What I thought I knew was *our* generation (post 1988) has ballooned our debt from $2T to $26T, and the result of this splurge is currently $400B of our annual GDP paying by interest only, and that annual interest payment, at a minimum, will burden our children, and their children, on debt WE incurred. That’s not even addressing repayment of the debt itself, and it is only increasing.
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Now imagine what happens when rates increase. 🤯

 
Gachi said:
The General said:
Wasn’t 60 votes in the Senate the key for the ACA.
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That was before Harry Reid (stupidly) invoked the nuclear option because they kept blocking Obama’s nominees. 
 

I understand why he did it, but it was very short sighted. 
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Filibuster is dead for nominees but not legislation.  If Dems had managed something like 53 seats in the Senate I think they would’ve killed the legislative filibuster.  But they won’t have the votes to do it now, so 60 votes will still be the magic number for the time being, at least when it comes to legislating.

 
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