BladeRunner
Footballguy
Seems to me that "violating the law" means "He's not falling in line and I don't like what he's doing". That's not even close to violating the law.
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How Much Voter Fraud Happened In 2020? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
BladeRunner
Footballguy
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I think the worst thing about this whole debacle is that it's more than likely to become the new norm going forward; particularly for the Gaetz, Jordan, Nunes, Cruz, Graham led Right. There's no reason for their candidate to not do this every cycle.
Yes
“'Georgia law prohibits the governor from interfering in elections. The Secretary of State, who is an elected constitutional officer, has oversight over elections that cannot be overridden by executive order,' Kemp’s spokesman said several days ago in response to Trump’s public demands." (Link.)
But it's not just that Trump urged Kemp to violate the law. Trump himself also may have violated criminal law here.
"Kathleen Clark, a law professor at Washington University, said that if Trump invoked his federal authority in his conversation Saturday with Kemp, or made the call from the Oval Office, he could have violated criminal provisions of the Hatch Act, which prohibits government officials from political activity in their official roles." (Link.)
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
Did Kemp actually violate the law?
Also, as per the bolded, why aren't we this concerned with phone calls for other political figures?
JAA
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
How many lawsuits and court cases did Abrams' camp push? How long after the election did Abrams suspend campaign?
Kemp declined Trump's request to do so.
Other political figures, besides Trump and his allies, don't use their government office phones for electioneering communications. If they did, we would be concerned about it.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Just to confirm, how many times are the goalposts going to be moved to make excuses that it was okay back when Abrams never conceded and called it voter fraud?
sho nuff
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Sentence 1: So no laws were broken if Kemp never followed thru?
Sentence 2: No one but Trump is using government phones for electioneering? This simply cannot be true. I have ZERO doubt that if Biden did the same thing this wouldn't even be a thing. But, I'm guessing at this point because I'm jaded.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Could've swore I saw him standing in front of a podium that had "Office of the President-Elect" on it. Maybe I was looking at something else.
But, my post about Biden was more concerned if he HAD been President.
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Thunderlips
Footballguy
You're content to speak of Trumps finals days of this election in the same manner you speak of Abrams? That's cool, I guess. I didn't think Trump supporters would cast such a negative light on him.
Before Trump, I don't think any President has ever used his office to pressure a governor to throw an election. I'm fairly sure Biden wouldn't do that.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Trump is asking for signature match and a hard count comparison of envelopes to ballots. The tweet says, "use his emergency powers,"
https://casetext.com/statute/code-of-georgia/title-38-military-emergency-management-and-veterans-affairs/chapter-3-emergency-management/article-3-emergency-powers/part-1-emergency-powers-of-the-governor
https://casetext.com/statute/code-of-georgia/title-38-military-emergency-management-and-veterans-affairs/chapter-3-emergency-management/article-3-emergency-powers/part-1-emergency-powers-of-the-governor/section-38-3-51-emergency-powers-of-governor-termination-of-emergency-limitations-in-energy-emergency-immunity
(d) In addition to any other emergency powers conferred upon the Governor by law, he may:
(1) Suspend any regulatory statute prescribing the procedures for conduct of state business, or the orders, rules, or regulations of any state agency, if strict compliance with any statute, order, rule, or regulation would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay necessary action in coping with the emergency or disaster;
******
People can argue if Trump is being a total **** or not. I don't have a problem with that. I'll guess most Conservatives here don't have a problem with that. Sometimes, some occasions it's many times, it's clear Trump is being a total **** about things.
People can also argue the specific law as written if Kemp actually has the power to do this AND HAVE IT TAKE ACTUAL EFFECT even if he activated his emergency powers (It would be difficult to see how this doesn't get legally challenged on multiple levels as this doesn't fit the scope of exigency usually prescribed in the cases where emergency powers are activated.)
I will say Gavin Newsom in California, with the courts striking down some of his moves, does form some kind of current counter example that higher courts might observe and cite.
But Donald Trump is NOT asking Kemp to violate the law. He's asking for him to activate his emergency powers as Governor and THEN for Kemp to specifically order a signature match and a hard count of ballots to envelopes and bypass the Secretary Of States Office. Trump is not ordering Kemp to do this. He is not offering him some kind of exchange of value for Kemp to do this. Feel free to cite Georgia law or legal counter example to refute what I'm saying here.
Is Trump guilty of being a ####? Sure. Is he violating the law? No.
You are entitled to whatever opinions you want, you aren't entitled to your own set of facts.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
I'm not sure that's what happened. Could have been just a simple, "What is going on here? Can you look into it and do something about it if it's not on the up and up?".
I feel like there is A LOT of speculation on what happened, and that speculation is driving some to think the worst happened when they really have no clue what was actually said. The media, and specifically CNN, has an agenda and narrative to pursue, IMO, to LEAD people into thinking a certain way.
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Uh, he's talking about "office" as in "government position," not "office building."
Joe Biden may or may not currently rent office space somewhere, but he absolutely does not currently hold office within the U.S. government.
sho nuff
Footballguy
And if he is in a transition office paid for by the taxpayers and making political/campaign calls...he would be in the wrong in doing so.Uh, he's talking about "office" as in "government position," not "office building."
Joe Biden may or may not currently rent office space somewhere, but he absolutely does not currently hold office within the U.S. government.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Did Kemp provide details of the conversation? If not, I agree with you that we shouldn’t speculate.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
"Hey it's me. What do you mean 'me who?', me The Donald. Listen, I need you to overturn the election results, can you do that, or no?"
Roy L Fewks
Footballguy
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution is citing "two senior GOP officials":
https://www.ajc.com/politics/politics-blog/why-kemp-wont-attend-trumps-georgia-rally-on-saturday/4ZGHTTK5YJDIDJ7YVUMTPEIMGY/
President Trump has clamped down on most of the leaking which occurred earlier in his administration, so my guess is that these GOP officials are from Kemp's office, maybe even Kemp himself.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
So, more speculation?
Until we get names and find out if they actually heard the conversation then it's nothing but wild speculation and hearsay.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Roy L Fewks
Footballguy
That's not how hearsay works. If the source heard Trump's words, then it's an eyewitness (earwitness) account, not hearsay.
the rover
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
This is how the Democrats got into trouble during the whole impeachment nonsense. Not only that, every story that the media came out with had the same type of BS.
Eyewitnesses don't hear what the conversation is over the phone. That would be between Kemp and Trump and unless we hear directly from Kemp then it's pure wild speculation that people want to somehow presume is fact.
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Good point. We’re only allowed to wildly speculate on voter fraud and pretend that it’s fact.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
I know there's a lot of people out there that want to believe that, but all I want to see is a fair and transparent process. From the videos I've seen so far, there's clearly some shenanigans going on. Whether that's enough to actually change the outcome election I highly doubt it but the problem is that we have partisans who have infiltrated the process and are causing The distrust in the process.
and, more to the point, we actually have video evidence and actual affidavits in this case whereas with the Trump phone call we have anonymous sources and people who weren't actually on the phone with Trump.
So I guess what I'm saying is I don't think that's a fair comparison.
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He's right if the question is what Trump said (and not whether what he said is true).
JAA
Footballguy
Correct. Not until he is officially sworn in.Uh, he's talking about "office" as in "government position," not "office building."
Joe Biden may or may not currently rent office space somewhere, but he absolutely does not currently hold office within the U.S. government.
BigJim®
Footballguy
GordonGekko
Footballguy
BigJim® said:
If Georgia and it's legislature did not want this possible outcome, they had every opportunity to change the law for the Office Of The Governor Of Georgia in regards to emergency powers and to what limits. The courts in Georgia had ample opportunity to take any cases that could show these laws to be outside the bounds of the Georgia Constitution.
You cannot "intervene" if you are not violating any laws. You cannot violate any laws if emergency powers grant you the discretion, as Governor of Georgia, to bypass established and current statutes and any office in the state.
You can call it a #### move if you want and I'd agree with you on that point. But it's not a violation of Georgia law. This is the bed the legislature and courts made, they might have to sleep in it. Sucks for them, sucks for you, but it's not illegal.
You are confusing the rule of law versus the concept of justice. What they teach every first year law student is "When you walk into a courtroom, you are absolutely sure you will get the law, though you may or may not get actual justice."
An easier way to explain this is classic Frank Miller aka Superman VS Batman. Superman as a concept is the law. (Rules matter first, even if violators don't pay and the end result is not just) Batman as a concept is justice. (Violators pay, the rules be damned if needed, the ends justify the means)
Blame Trump for his exhausting trolling if you want, but you can't blame him if you comingle two distinct concepts and can't see the difference.
randall146
Footballguy
I'm gonna go ahead and wildly speculate that what Trump said wasn't true.Maurile Tremblay said:
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
I am presently incarcerated, imprisoned for a crime I did not even commit. "Attempted murder," now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for "attempted chemistry?BladeRunner said:
JAA
Footballguy
the rover
Footballguy
Again, that would be true in a court of law. A newspaper article is not offering anything to a court. The common, non-legal definition of hearsay is “information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.”
When he expressed concern that the anonymous sourcing was “speculation and hearsay” he used the term correctly. There is no legal standard for either his post or the newspaper’s article.
the rover
Footballguy
Also, if you were to try to get the article admitted in court, the “truth of the matter asserted” would be that the GOP officials heard the statement. Since the article was written by someone who did not hear that statement, but was reporting it based on anonymous sources, the reporter’s testimony would also be hearsay. You’d have to argue the catchall exception to get it in.
Max Power
Footballguy
Does anyone have more information on the claim below?
Robb Hurst, CPA @robbhurstCPA
Ware County, Ga has broken the Dominion algorithm: Using sequestered Dominion Equipment, Ware County ran a equal number of Trump votes and Biden votes through the Tabulator and the Tabulator reported a 26% lead for Biden.
37 Trump votes used in the equal sample run had been "Switched" from Trump to Biden. In actual algorithmic terms this means that a vote for Trump was counted as 87% of a vote and a vote for Biden was counted as 113% of a vote.
Those conducting the test were so shocked that they ran the same ballots again. The same results appeared. ONE PIECE OF THE PUZZLE SOLVED. (It is worth noting that this was one County, and on one Tabulator alone.
Dominion Tabulators could have been configured with different algorithms in different Counties or States.) The point is there is now hard evidence of electronic manipulation of the Election.
The use of illegal and/or fabricated ballots is an additional issue altogether, but this is sufficient evidence to question the validity of the ENTIRE Election in the 28 states that used Dominion software. Source: Debbie Browning Tift Co Republican Party
I have reached out to Debbie Browning of Tift County Republican Party to request any source docs.
Robb Hurst, CPA @robbhurstCPA
Ware County, Ga has broken the Dominion algorithm: Using sequestered Dominion Equipment, Ware County ran a equal number of Trump votes and Biden votes through the Tabulator and the Tabulator reported a 26% lead for Biden.
37 Trump votes used in the equal sample run had been "Switched" from Trump to Biden. In actual algorithmic terms this means that a vote for Trump was counted as 87% of a vote and a vote for Biden was counted as 113% of a vote.
Those conducting the test were so shocked that they ran the same ballots again. The same results appeared. ONE PIECE OF THE PUZZLE SOLVED. (It is worth noting that this was one County, and on one Tabulator alone.
Dominion Tabulators could have been configured with different algorithms in different Counties or States.) The point is there is now hard evidence of electronic manipulation of the Election.
The use of illegal and/or fabricated ballots is an additional issue altogether, but this is sufficient evidence to question the validity of the ENTIRE Election in the 28 states that used Dominion software. Source: Debbie Browning Tift Co Republican Party
I have reached out to Debbie Browning of Tift County Republican Party to request any source docs.
JAA
Footballguy
I spent 2 minutes reading his rambling at @robbhurstCPA. Pure speculation represented as fact.
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the rover
Footballguy
A simple search sources this back to a claim made by Steve Bannon, with no evidence to back it. I just defended your objection to “speculation and hearsay,” but here you are presenting the same.
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