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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Of course. I just went for two easy ones as we just had an election. There are tons and tons of groups. My assumption (and I could well be wrong) was @Hoh was feeling like he didn't fit in whatever group his neighbors were in. That's all I meant.
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
@Joe Bryant
Honest question: what do the folks you talk to think about the insurrection itself? You always ask us what we think about the stuff they're watching/reading/saying -- I'm curious how they're processing this event?
JAA
Footballguy
JAA
Footballguy
This is behind a paywall for me. Can anyone paste the content?
Edit: Another article - https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-oregon-racial-injustice-arrests-courts-270290ab45ff5c2fd86f21d9b0de9def#:~:text=PORTLAND%2C Ore.,months won't be prosecuted.&text=The same no prosecution policy,in future demonstrations%2C he said.
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I assume so, but maybe not. I'm mostly curious what the perception is outside my world, but not necessarily inside the world of the people who actually did it. Maybe inside the world of the folks who'd agree with the Cracked.com article you've posted a couple times?
Thanks. I agree it's good to get other views. This is just my anecdotal experience and super small sample size. But since you asked: My church is a large mainstream protestant church. Many of the Republican powerbrokers in town are connected or members. Our pastor from the pulpit Sunday said on livestream, "We lament the character of our President".
So when I push back that every Christian is in lockstep with Trump, it's because of real life experiences like that.
Talking to my Trump voting friends, they thought it was awful. There was one guy who tried to downplay it asking how it was different than burning a police station. I said, "Because it's the US Capitol and the line of succession to the President was inside". This guy is a strong local business guy who identifies with the local businesses wrecked and I get where he's coming from. But he pretty much conceded.
All the other Trump voter friends were disgusted. One texted me "IDIOTS" as it was happening. Several had visited the Capitol in years past. One is an especially wonky government / political guy. He said, "The US Capitol is the closest thing our government has to a sacred space". I have another very strong conservative friend that I posted here his post on facebook about how this was clear cut wrong and should be denounced.
Our local US representative is a folksy Trump supporter guy (In Knoxville where I live, the congress people who win are the ones who get the Trump endorsement). He tweeted minutes after the event the protesters were criminals and should be treated as such.
As I've said before. Many of these folks saw Trump as the less bad of two bad choices. It sounds bad to say, but they said if there was any upside to this, it's that this should remove any chance Trump stays relevant in the big picture.
Again, I know that's not what everyone thinks. But that's what my friends think.
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FairWarning
Footballguy
I know Chicago did it. I suspect others did it also. Probably a manpower and a virus issue.JAA said:
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FairWarning
Footballguy
I really don't think they should be treated the same. I would like to see them go hard after the Wash DC people.JAA said:
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Glad I asked Joe. Thanks for the lengthy reply.
I think the thing that's been most frustrating to me (and I can't speak for anyone else) is that Trump has proved himself to be pretty much exactly who I thought he was four years ago. Long before last Wednesday. Last Wednesday just made it overt.
And it's felt like no one that voted for him was paying attention, or cared, as he destroyed democratic, free-society norms, and wrecked basic decency, day after day. And, absent interaction as people, it gets hard to attribute good faith after a while. So it's a weird sort of relief to find out that there is a line he can cross for people like your church friends.
There was a great piece on NPR (yeah, I know) a couple weekends ago about a feature creator there who decided that his goal in his work was to have his features deal with very difficult conflicts and to represent a "third space" -- where the opposing viewpoints were dealt with in the context context of the conflict itself, rather than in the relationship between the people involved. Think of it like each person had a relationship with the conflict, separate from the relationship with each other, and it wasn't necessary to resolve it.
One of the things he spent a ton of time talking about, and that drove him to choose that focus for his work, was a piece he'd done on Dolly Parton. I didn't know her history or much about who she'd become post 9-5, but she talked about her relationship with Cole Porter in a way that surprised him and made him think (TIL: she wrote the original I Will Always Love You about their breakup).
Also, her crowds are apparently well-known for their diversity and her embrace of everyone. She intends it to be a safe space. So you have traditional country music fans, college hipsters, LBGT men and women, a smattering of minorities and... some not very good people. The NPR guy was talking to her about how that happened and it turned to the idea of forgiveness and, for lack of a better way to summarize it, hating the sin, but not the sinner. She refuses to judge. No matter what. And her concerts consciously become the separate space for people with very different ideas about the world. Granted, they aren't actually interacting in that space -- they're just sharing it. So it's pretty easy. But untangling how that worked and her views on forgiveness and living with the conflict is what led him to a place where he wanted his work to handle conflict as he described it above. It was thought-provoking and struck me as a very good model for people in a relationship.
Based on a lot of what you've posted here, I'm going to guess some of this resonates for you, but I don't know you, so maybe not. Either way, the question I was left with, and that left me unsatisfied, was, "At what point do you stop dealing with the conflict as a thing that exists and start dealing with it more confrontationally." If one group of Dolly's patrons goes home and harassers another group when they aren't in her space what's her responsibility to confront it?
And, bigger picture, obviously at the point someone starts shooting you don't care what they believe any more. You just have to stop them from the unacceptable action. For me, I don't regret opposing Trump 100% for the last four years. He is who I thought he was and all the little actions did lead to where I thought they would.
It's the in-between that's interesting though. What's the balance between opposing people enabling something (or someone) bad and trying to find that "third space"? Where do the duty to "prevent bad" or "protect others" and the duty to "understand each another" meet?
I don't really have a lot of regrets about the last four years, and certainly none at all for opposing not just Trump, but the people who were making bad faith arguments and bearing false witness to defend a monster (which is not all Trump voters), but that line is still interesting.
How long should you give someone the benefit of the doubt? Dolly says it's forever, but I'm pretty sure that's not the right answer even though I know I may be far from the 'right' balance myself.
Not sure there's a grand wrap up or anything. Just some thoughts I guess. Thanks again for sharing yours.
I think the thing that's been most frustrating to me (and I can't speak for anyone else) is that Trump has proved himself to be pretty much exactly who I thought he was four years ago. Long before last Wednesday. Last Wednesday just made it overt.
And it's felt like no one that voted for him was paying attention, or cared, as he destroyed democratic, free-society norms, and wrecked basic decency, day after day. And, absent interaction as people, it gets hard to attribute good faith after a while. So it's a weird sort of relief to find out that there is a line he can cross for people like your church friends.
There was a great piece on NPR (yeah, I know) a couple weekends ago about a feature creator there who decided that his goal in his work was to have his features deal with very difficult conflicts and to represent a "third space" -- where the opposing viewpoints were dealt with in the context context of the conflict itself, rather than in the relationship between the people involved. Think of it like each person had a relationship with the conflict, separate from the relationship with each other, and it wasn't necessary to resolve it.
One of the things he spent a ton of time talking about, and that drove him to choose that focus for his work, was a piece he'd done on Dolly Parton. I didn't know her history or much about who she'd become post 9-5, but she talked about her relationship with Cole Porter in a way that surprised him and made him think (TIL: she wrote the original I Will Always Love You about their breakup).
Also, her crowds are apparently well-known for their diversity and her embrace of everyone. She intends it to be a safe space. So you have traditional country music fans, college hipsters, LBGT men and women, a smattering of minorities and... some not very good people. The NPR guy was talking to her about how that happened and it turned to the idea of forgiveness and, for lack of a better way to summarize it, hating the sin, but not the sinner. She refuses to judge. No matter what. And her concerts consciously become the separate space for people with very different ideas about the world. Granted, they aren't actually interacting in that space -- they're just sharing it. So it's pretty easy. But untangling how that worked and her views on forgiveness and living with the conflict is what led him to a place where he wanted his work to handle conflict as he described it above. It was thought-provoking and struck me as a very good model for people in a relationship.
Based on a lot of what you've posted here, I'm going to guess some of this resonates for you, but I don't know you, so maybe not. Either way, the question I was left with, and that left me unsatisfied, was, "At what point do you stop dealing with the conflict as a thing that exists and start dealing with it more confrontationally." If one group of Dolly's patrons goes home and harassers another group when they aren't in her space what's her responsibility to confront it?
And, bigger picture, obviously at the point someone starts shooting you don't care what they believe any more. You just have to stop them from the unacceptable action. For me, I don't regret opposing Trump 100% for the last four years. He is who I thought he was and all the little actions did lead to where I thought they would.
It's the in-between that's interesting though. What's the balance between opposing people enabling something (or someone) bad and trying to find that "third space"? Where do the duty to "prevent bad" or "protect others" and the duty to "understand each another" meet?
I don't really have a lot of regrets about the last four years, and certainly none at all for opposing not just Trump, but the people who were making bad faith arguments and bearing false witness to defend a monster (which is not all Trump voters), but that line is still interesting.
How long should you give someone the benefit of the doubt? Dolly says it's forever, but I'm pretty sure that's not the right answer even though I know I may be far from the 'right' balance myself.
Not sure there's a grand wrap up or anything. Just some thoughts I guess. Thanks again for sharing yours.
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Thanks @Dinsy Ejotuz For sure that resonates. Dolly is a hero of mine. I don't know anyone who does a better job connecting people than she does. She's able to say things that aren't popular with people and they still love her.
You may have seen this when she changed the name of the Dixie Stampede show at Dollywood. It's stuff like that where she speaks truth but walks the walk in other areas so that she's got the street credibility to back it up. She's awesome.
The "how long should you give the benefit of the doubt" is a HUGE conversation. From a Christian perspective, this can have even an added layer.
There's a pretty famous (at least among Christians) passage in the book of Matthew where Peter, one of Jesus' disciples asks him how many times one should forgive another person. Which is sort of what you're asking about benefit of the doubt.
When I say it's a huge discussion, it's because this can be spun multiple ways. Jesus was never about "It's all cool, do whatever you want." But some times you can see this verse used for something wrongly like justifying a person staying in an abusive relationship. But other times you can see it used more rightly I think in you should have a really long reach on how often you forgive someone. It's complicated.
It gets into some of the "grace and forgiveness shouldn't be conditional" stuff I've written about earlier.
I have a pastor friend who said it well I think, "Forgiveness is a command for all Christians, trusting abusive people is foolish. Forgiveness is free, trust is earned. One of our big issues in evangelical Christendom is that people conflate forgiveness and trust."
So bottom line, it's kind of complicated. But if possible, best to err on the side of more forgiveness I think.
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I understand there are many politically charged topics, but it’s surprising you feel so restricted revealing your true self. Is there any particular issue(s) you feel comfortable discussing on an anonymous forum? Perhaps those with opposing views can provide some insight how they’d discuss the issue with you candidly and constructively? Failing that, surely you can cultivate some non-controversial interests?
Snorkelson
Footballguy
One stop at the Parler of fantasy football tells me we have a long way to go.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
No, the other place is. You’re the Twitter (you know, reasonable moderation, be excellent etc)We're Parler of Fantasy Football?
Snorkelson
Footballguy
The place where all the people banned from here go.
I'm sorry but I don't understand. I think most people would feel much more comfortable discussing something as an anonymous poster than in real life.
If I'm hearing @Hoh right, he has different opinions than his neighbors and feels like he doesn't fit in with them. I can totally see why he'd be more comfortable being anonymous.
I agree non controversial interests would be a great alternative.
Thanks.
Another thought on @Hoh's point.
1. It's a big deal to feel like others know you deeper than just a superficial wave. I get it. I'd encourage everyone to do all they can to make a concerted effort in real life. Don't give up on it.
2. With that said, it's difficult. I visited my Uncle's favorite bar with him last year in Pittsburgh. There's a sign above the bar that says "No Politics". I thought they were joking. They were 100% serious. They just made the decision they wouldn't have political talk at the bar. That's not a great long term solution. But at times, I get it.
1. It's a big deal to feel like others know you deeper than just a superficial wave. I get it. I'd encourage everyone to do all they can to make a concerted effort in real life. Don't give up on it.
2. With that said, it's difficult. I visited my Uncle's favorite bar with him last year in Pittsburgh. There's a sign above the bar that says "No Politics". I thought they were joking. They were 100% serious. They just made the decision they wouldn't have political talk at the bar. That's not a great long term solution. But at times, I get it.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I think to heal and move forward Trump supporters have to at some point be able to at least consider the idea that “maybe I was wrong about this guy. What if he really did coordinate the Wikileaks information drop, meet with Russian operatives, etc. Maybe he lied about the election. Maybe he did incite a mob (or worse) to attempt to delay certification. Maybe the whole thing has been one lie after another” (spoiler: it has).
Instead I’m seeing a lot of “that’s what you get for stealing an election” and “this is the dems America, riots and death.” I don’t know. A large portion of the population is either ignoring reality or just doesn’t care because the ends justify the means.
Instead I’m seeing a lot of “that’s what you get for stealing an election” and “this is the dems America, riots and death.” I don’t know. A large portion of the population is either ignoring reality or just doesn’t care because the ends justify the means.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
And I’m leaving out a lot of “maybes” here, like maybe he did pressure Ukraine to influence the election, maybe he did funnel a bunch of campaign and taxpayer money to his properties and family....I mean some of this is just in plain sight, but it’s just repeated rhetoric and doubling down on stupid conspiracies (from the right in defense of the actions.)
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Thanks @Dinsy Ejotuz
Two things. One, do you have a link to the NPR piece you reference here? I'd like to hear it.
Two, what you're talking about in Dolly's responsibility is a fascinating and huge issue.
Obviously, Dolly's community is there to see / hear her. In my case, I'm just one of the voices in the community and certainly not a focus. But I do very much feel responsibility for it being "my community" I created.
It's interesting for sure.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I think @Hoh might need to clarify a bit before we assume. When I initially read that post, my reaction was to think that Hoh wasn't sure how his neighbors felt and rather than risk a confrontation, preferred to just not discuss such topics. That's a bit different than "oh, I see their Trump/Biden campaign signs and that means...".
SWC
Bromigo
i know a guy who says talkin about politics religion and how good lookin other guys wives are never turns out well so maybe he owns a bar in steeltown take that to the bank brohans
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
Agreed. I always see that the left needs to do a better job at understanding the right and why they voted for Trump. Why not the opposite? Why shouldn’t Trump supporters be doing a better job at understanding why 81 million Americans are very anti-Trump?
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I think Trump supporters have been pretty clear that the reason why millions of Americans hate Trump is because we’ve been brainwashed by the mainstream media.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
Exactly, a significant portion of them just shrug the left off as sheep brainwashed by the MSM. Don’t even attempt to understand the other side yet the left is the one who is consistently asked to be more understanding.
And I’m all for being understanding when it comes down to the right people, and there are plenty of Republicans like that. But for the more extreme Trumpism wing of the party which seems to be a relatively significant size, how do you meet in the middle with people who believe every lie Trump says and truly think they’re saving the country by storming the capitol or overthrowing the election?
Unless there is some self reflection done by that person to realIze that Trump has been lying to them, there’s no chance for any middle ground to be met. And I understand that person might not even have bad intentions and wants what’s best for the country, but if you’re that brainwashed by Trump and right wing propaganda, I just don’t know what can be done.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Just never saw it coming
Maybe not the best thread for it but I’m wondering about the large number of people coming around to this point of view.
Like...OK, I’m glad you’ve had that epiphany. I’m still wondering why you didn’t have this realization when he came down the gold escalator 5.5 years ago to tell us Mexico is sending us crime, drugs, rapists...”And some, I assume, are good people.“
Interesting. Have you seen that work well or do you have a thought on it?
When I was at my Uncle's bar, I casually made mention of Joe Biden being a PA guy and one of the guys at the bar, nicely said, "Hey now" and pointed to the sign. It wasn't a big deal or weird. I just thought it was interesting.
My uncle looked at me and nodded and said quietly, "It's better that way".
Thunderlips
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
The more Republicans in Congress that vote for impeachment today, the greater the prospects for healing, IMO.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Yup. It's not like we haven't tried to understand each other but the different bubbles we live in make it impossible.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
late to the thread here - but for weeks on facebook the people who were so vile and hateful towards Trump and conservatives over the last 4 years, the people every day calling for impeachment, repeating the Russia claims, or Stormy, or Ukraine and talking about taking back the country in 2020 and all the hateful mean things ..... the same people are now asking conservatives to play nice, lets heal, lets all forget about the last 4 years of epic attacks on conservatives.
where were they 4 years ago? why not call for unity and calm and peace and work with conservatives 4 years ago? no - just the opposite - only when Democrats regained control did the calls for healing come
am I the only one that see's the hypocrisy in that ?
where were they 4 years ago? why not call for unity and calm and peace and work with conservatives 4 years ago? no - just the opposite - only when Democrats regained control did the calls for healing come
am I the only one that see's the hypocrisy in that ?
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Yes, I think it’s easier communicating anonymously. My point was he could trial a discussion here of topics he’s afraid to mention around his unlike-minded neighbors, and gain feedback how to approach talking about them IRL.
Truthfully though, I think we all need to take a step back from politics for a while. There’s a bazillion other ways to get to know someone without discussing hot-button topics, religion, etc. But I’m imposing my values here, and understand many people’s identity is strongly tied to their political beliefs.
Zow
Footballguy
I think where you lose people is in your first paragraph. I think many would disagree with the factual assertions you're making and, without that fundamental meeting of the minds on that factual basis, you're going to lose people with your follow-up rhetorical questions based on that premise.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you can't disagree with facts - Democrats have attacked Trump and conservatives every day from since Trump got more electoral votes. I remember Booker wanting to punch Trump in the face or Biden saying he wanted to beat up Trump, calling him a clown or the Harassments of Trump / MAGA hat wearers. I remember the jokes on assassinating Trump, even an elected official in MO Chappelle-Nadal saying assassinate Trump. Snoop dog making the video, Kathy Griffin the beheaded head and Madonna saying blow up the white house. AOC called Border Patrol nazis and encouraged violence in protests, the constant attacks on Trump and Russia and Trump was proven not guilty ... I could go on and on.
I think for the side that did all the attacking its easy to forget - the side that was daily attacked for 4 years? I don't think that's easily forgotten.
I've said on here for a long time that this 4 years has been unprecedented as far as attacks on conservatives. I'll stand by that - its a very real feeling and its backed up by factual events and truth.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
This thread, as in @Joe Bryant's post is asking the winners of this past election, specifically the presidential election to play nice without conditions that the other side also play nice. That those with their political side in power cannot control what those on the other side of the aisle does, but can control how they behave. And ultimately if maybe the winning side extending an olive branch in the form of reconnecting with politically distant friends and family, remembering that ultimately these are people we love will help facilitate some healing and moving on. And, while Joe never used the term maybe it will help "pay it forward" from our individual interactions.
Now I don't want to suggest that the hope isn't that you'll accept the grace that he hopes to be offered and that maybe you'll participate in this. And I get that using the word "grace" can be loaded, maybe even insulting since it may suggest from some definitions that you are getting a favor that you don't deserve. Especially if that "favor" is forgiveness to something that you disagree was ever wrong. But, I don't think that Joe meaning it that way but more along the lines of giving love and understanding and respect and whatever I am forgetting without any conditions. You don't earn these things not because you cannot but because if isn't necessary. And the hope is that they are given freely.
At least that is what I believe Joe intends. I don't feel terribly comfortable speaking for him and if you read through this thread I'm a pretty contradictory mess as I weave in and out of various contexts as to what "healing and moving on" means. Switching from as an individual, to a group, to society at large which are all different conversations happening in this thread. But I think I'm on pretty solid ground that this thread wasn't meant to reign in the right to behave other than as a natural consequence of the left behaving. And yes many have scoffed at this idea. From both sides.
RnR
Footballguy
I'd just like to add that Dolly Parton is considered royalty in the state of Tennessee. And that transcends whatever your political belief system may be.
Example: She sends one hardback children's book per month to every child in the state from birth until kindergarten... for free. Just gets there every month and helps them learn to read.
I'd say she could win the governor's seat in our state as an independent in a landslide victory, but everyone knows Dolly is way too smart to get involved with that. She's ACTUALLY impacts lives daily. Bless her.
Example: She sends one hardback children's book per month to every child in the state from birth until kindergarten... for free. Just gets there every month and helps them learn to read.
I'd say she could win the governor's seat in our state as an independent in a landslide victory, but everyone knows Dolly is way too smart to get involved with that. She's ACTUALLY impacts lives daily. Bless her.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
well lets see .... on a personal level my world was crushed by a divorce, my son left for military, I had to get my daughter from jail two days before Christmas, I'm immune to covid so far and I have a job so that good. Politically I'm very worried with Biden and Democrats in control. This weekend there is supposed to be a rally and I'm afraid to go because if I do and my company finds out, I might could be fired and I can't lose my job so I'm not going
if your'e asking if I feel like we're going to heal as a nation no - I do not see that happening, no more so than 4 years ago if the left had been asked that
Stealthycat
Footballguy
did we see that in 2016?
I guess that's what I'm trying to convey here - not many conservatives come to this board and I go to both liberal and conservative boards and what I'm saying is that the right see's 4 years of daily hate towards them from the left
and they're not going to forget it - they see the 2020 election as a joke, they're upset because of how they've been treated and are currently treated
that's how they FEEL
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Sorry about the way life has been treating you lately. Praying that it gets better for you.
I know this is a popular take but I don't agree at all. I truly hope people don't look at Republicans today not voting to impeach the president as a sign there can't be healing. No time or desire to debate it other than I hope people don't try to equate the two.
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