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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts?


Joe Bryant

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5 minutes ago, The General said:

This is getting into a some odd tangents but yes I do think many people felt unsafe and their lives were in danger at points this summer during riots. Not sure what your point with this is.

I believe where AOC is coming from is that Congress is just getting their reports from the FBI as more is known and it is really scary stuff. Please google FBI reports on this and give them a read.

I don't think you get what I'm trying to say. AOC is talking about a commission on facts - but she didn't state any facts. She stated gross misrepresentation and feelings. 

If she can do it - why can't Trump or anyone else? The very thing she's saying needs stopped she turned around and did

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

it'll take years of actions to make me believe Democrats want to work with Republicans to find a middle ground for Americans. I simply don't see it 

Who do you believe to be the most divisive president was in the US was over the last 40 year?  

Do you believe that Joe Biden won the election fair and square? (just a yes or no)

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I don't think you get what I'm trying to say. AOC is talking about a commission on facts - but she didn't state any facts. She stated gross misrepresentation and feelings. 

Isn't she stating her first-hand observation based on having personally been there?

What's the evidence that she's wrong?

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1 minute ago, Chaz McNulty said:

Who do you believe to be the most divisive president was in the US was over the last 40 year?  

Do you believe that Joe Biden won the election fair and square? (just a yes or no)

Trump had the most division because Democrats hated him with more passion than republicans hated Bill Clinton - but Trump never tried hard to play nice. In that he was a massive disappointment for me

Biden got 16 more million votes than Hillary while winning fewer counties and the big city counties all had like 2-3% fewer people (urban exodus over the past 4 years) ..... so no, I don't believe the laws and rules of elections were followed, it makes no sense how Biden could have done that does it?

 

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11 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I don't think you get what I'm trying to say. AOC is talking about a commission on facts - but she didn't state any facts. She stated gross misrepresentation and feelings. 

If she can do it - why can't Trump or anyone else? The very thing she's saying needs stopped she turned around and did

I don't know if it is a misrepresentation, neither do you. That's what needs to be looked into. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Isn't she stating her first-hand observation based on having personally been there?

What's the evidence that she's wrong?

Trump states his first hand observations - what's wrong with that ?

What's "real" and what's "felt" is two very different things

 

I have a deep, inner fear of spiders. When I see a brown recluse, I react to it with fear, irrational response because I'm 20,000 times bigger than a spider and its fangs are so small, recluse bites really are rare. To say " I saw a recluse and he almost bit me and I almost died"   that's a feeling, but its not reality right ?

isn't that what AOC and Pelosi and Trump and Rush and so many figure do? they glorify what they want, dumb down what they disagree with and use that to manipulate?

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Trump had the most division because Democrats hated him with more passion than republicans hated Bill Clinton - but Trump never tried hard to play nice. In that he was a massive disappointment for me

Biden got 16 more million votes than Hillary while winning fewer counties and the big city counties all had like 2-3% fewer people (urban exodus over the past 4 years) ..... so no, I don't believe the laws and rules of elections were followed, it makes no sense how Biden could have done that does it?

 

It makes perfect sense if you want to see it.

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1 hour ago, GoBirds said:

You are an extremist because you post in a forum where the majority are extreme Left and you don’t fall in line, that’s an east one. 😉 

Thinking the election was rigged is an extremist point of view, no?

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31 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I don't think you get what I'm trying to say. AOC is talking about a commission on facts - but she didn't state any facts. She stated gross misrepresentation and feelings. 

The Wall Street Journal: Lawmakers Were Feet and Seconds Away From Confrontation With the Mob in the Capitol: The rioters shouted they were searching for lawmakers; some made a narrow escape

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12 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

It makes perfect sense if you want to see it.

explain please

its an anomaly that's never happened before - that massive a % increase while winning fewer counties 

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4 minutes ago, The General said:

Thinking the election was rigged is an extremist point of view, no?

"I'm not an extremist, but I think the election was rigged" indicates a lack of self-awareness.

It's okay to have some extreme views. (I do.) Undoubtedly, some extreme views are correct.  But failing to recognize the extremism of a particular belief is a major handicap in evaluating its likelihood of being correct.

In order to be confident that a belief is correct, you should be familiar with and understand the arguments against it. I submit that there is no possible way to be familiar with the arguments against "the election was rigged" without recognizing that "the election was rigged" is an extreme view.

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9 minutes ago, The General said:

Thinking the election was rigged is an extremist point of view, no?

do you not remember everyone who said the 2016 was rigged aka Russia aka fraud etc?  one example

 

Nancy Pelosi

@SpeakerPelosi

·May 16, 2017

Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts.

 

 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

But see I don’t regard you as an extremist @GoBirds I rarely agree with your views but you’re in the spectrum of rational discourse.

For now.  But once you get rid of StealthyCat then GoBirds becomes the new extremist, and you’ll set your sights on him.  I don’t trust it to stop.

edit:  no offense Stealthy...just using you as an example

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9 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

"I'm not an extremist, but I think the election was rigged" indicates a lack of self-awareness.

It's okay to have some extreme views. (I do.) Undoubtedly, some extreme views are correct.  But failing to recognize the extremism of a particular belief is a major handicap in evaluating its likelihood of being correct.

In order to be confident that a belief is correct, you should be familiar with and understand the arguments against it. I submit that there is no possible way to be familiar with the arguments against "the election was rigged" without recognizing that "the election was rigged" is an extreme view.

Yes to all this.

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8 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

"I'm not an extremist, but I think the election was rigged" indicates a lack of self-awareness.

so everyone who said it was Russia & Trump winning the 2016 election, we can call all those people extremeists ?

its easy to label - its very hard to answer the  question - how did Biden get 16 million more votes ? when things look unbelievable, they normally are and if there is very few ways to conclude Joe got that many more votes within the rules and restrictions of voting in those states in question then yes, w can conclude they were not gathered on the up and up

extreme ? no - logical

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2 minutes ago, Hoh said:

 But once you get rid of StealthyCats

and again, with comments saying "get rid of" and "defeat" someone else because they don't agree .... and then call for unity and healing ?

does anyone here see the massive problem with that ?

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

do you not remember everyone who said the 2016 was rigged aka Russia aka fraud etc?  one example

 

Nancy Pelosi

@SpeakerPelosi

·May 16, 2017

Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts.

 

 

It was determined by our IC that Russia had an active program in place to influence our election. This conclusion was reached by Republican lead committees in the Senate. 

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

The more Republicans in Congress that vote for impeachment today, the greater the prospects for healing, IMO. 

Unity is achieved by Peace.

Peace is achieved by Justice.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

and again, with comments saying "get rid of" and "defeat" someone else because they don't agree .... and then call for unity and healing ?

does anyone here see the massive problem with that ?

Again, I was just using you as the example since Tim labeled you as such. I do not condone the “defeat” and “get rid of” mindset. I hope that’s clear.

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7 minutes ago, Hoh said:

For now.  But once you get rid of StealthyCat then GoBirds becomes the new extremist, and you’ll set your sights on him.  I don’t trust it to stop.

edit:  no offense Stealthy...just using you as an example

See this is why I don’t accept slippery slope arguments. Because what you described would never happen with me. I don’t move my goalposts. 

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5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

so everyone who said it was Russia & Trump winning the 2016 election, we can call all those people extremeists ?

its easy to label - its very hard to answer the  question - how did Biden get 16 million more votes ? when things look unbelievable, they normally are and if there is very few ways to conclude Joe got that many more votes within the rules and restrictions of voting in those states in question then yes, w can conclude they were not gathered on the up and up

extreme ? no - logical

This is liking asking how did Alabama score 52 points in the championship game. It had never been done before! I’m looking through the playoff championship games, 45 was the most ever before Monday.
 

Something must have been rigged!! It’s only logical.

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13 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

so everyone who said it was Russia & Trump winning the 2016 election, we can call all those people extremeists ?

I don't understand what you're asking.

Russia interfered in the 2016 election with the aim of helping Trump win. That's the conclusion of all American intelligence agencies, the special counsel, the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee. It's not an extreme view.

The 2020 election was not rigged. That's the conclusion of all the audits, court cases, Republican Secretaries of State, etc. It's not an extreme view.

The idea that Russia didn't interfere in the 2016 election is an extreme view.

The idea that the 2020 election was rigged is an extreme view.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

many many were almost assassinated - you believe that's fact ? 

 

honest question

Hard to say.  They were chanting to hang Pence and several people had zip tie handcuffs so were obviously looking to at least take hostages.  The true motivations of the people who stormed the capitol, killed a police officer, and were actively hunting for politicians, all fueled by demonstrably false and dangerous allegations by the President, are impossible to know but almost certainly extreme.  

How you can be sure they wouldn't have is beyond me.

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

See this is why I don’t accept slippery slope arguments. Because what you described would never happen with me. I don’t move my goalposts. 

Perhaps not you personally, but enough do to be concerned.

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1 minute ago, Hoh said:

Perhaps not you personally, but enough do to be concerned.

I’m not suggesting that there should be some law designating what is and what is not extreme. I wrote what I personally regard as extreme. I would have regarded it as extreme 10 years ago or 30 years ago. 

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33 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I'd like to see what I expect from any administration

strong American economy, border control, do more to stop abortion, stop expanding Fed Govt intrusion into our lives, environmentally sound initiatives .... on a more personal level, I'm pro-2nd Amendment and I'm afraid Biden and company is going to attack that. 

I know Biden will act more presidential when on camera and he won't instigate the press, I'll be glad to see that. But will Biden try and be "my" President?   no, I don't think he'll represent much of what i believe, just as Trump didn't represent much of what the left believe. Democrats have control - they're going to hammer through policies with their agenda - what was said in a previous comment about having to defeat people who don't believe like you do ?

that's how I feel - and that's not going away anytime soon - it'll take years of actions to make me believe Democrats want to work with Republicans to find a middle ground for Americans. I simply don't see it - i've been told more than once if I disagree with the liberal agenda, i'm simply wrong and have to be "defeated"

I kind of think of your fear of democrats here is pretty much the same as your fear of spiders.  Yes the agenda will change with Biden occupying the bully pulpit.  Yes democrats will offer up different solutions to the problems of the day then republicans.  But democrats are not like republicans when it comes to "hammer through policies" because their just too big of a tent.  Too diverse.  Will things be left of what you would prefer - sure.  But absent some additional national disaster there isn't going to be a New Green Deal no matter how much their should be.  There isn't going to be any of the major components of the NGD such as Medicare for All or UBI or whatever shorthand there is for the climate stuff.  I seriously doubt that the balance of the court could change all that much beyond Roberts starting to be called a liberal justice.

Now maybe four years from now what democrats did will get them four more years and we will drift further left, but I think it is more likely that the economy sucks the next two years as the pandemic's damage is felt and the GOP regain at least the Senate and probably both houses.  So I just don't know what there is to fear.  Please tell me why I, as an extreme leftist begrudgingly resigned into being an incrementalist should be joyous about what is to come.  Because I'm not. 

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31 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

explain please

its an anomaly that's never happened before - that massive a % increase while winning fewer counties 

Trump is not popular. There was a record turnout. Seems straight forward.

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17 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

so everyone who said it was Russia & Trump winning the 2016 election, we can call all those people extremeists ?

its easy to label - its very hard to answer the  question - how did Biden get 16 million more votes ? when things look unbelievable, they normally are and if there is very few ways to conclude Joe got that many more votes within the rules and restrictions of voting in those states in question then yes, w can conclude they were not gathered on the up and up

extreme ? no - logical

Again, you are conflating things.  That Russia interfered in the 2016 election is not disputed.  By anyone.  But no one is alleging it was rigged or that votes were stolen or that there was fraud.  In 2016 Russia operatives orchestrated a massive disinformation campaign that influenced how voters voted.  that is the allegation.  Not that they changed votes.

So your comparison does not work.

there is no evidence (at all) of voter fraud or that the election was rigged in 2020.  Every lawyer who was asked if that was being alleged said no when pressed by the court.  You know, because they had no evidence and did not want to get disbarred.

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27 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

so everyone who said it was Russia & Trump winning the 2016 election, we can call all those people extremeists ?

its easy to label - its very hard to answer the  question - how did Biden get 16 million more votes ? when things look unbelievable, they normally are and if there is very few ways to conclude Joe got that many more votes within the rules and restrictions of voting in those states in question then yes, w can conclude they were not gathered on the up and up

extreme ? no - logical

I think I'd like to see the redacted material before we close the door on Russia/Trump. 

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16 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I don't understand what you're asking.

Russia interfered in the 2016 election with the aim of helping Trump win. That's the conclusion of all American intelligence agencies, the special counsel, the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee. It's not an extreme view.

The 2020 election was not rigged. That's the conclusion of all the audits, court cases, Republican Secretaries of State, etc. It's not an extreme view.

The idea that Russia didn't interfere in the 2016 election is an extreme view.

The idea that the 2020 election was rigged is an extreme view.

how many years were we all told Trump and Russia were together? How many still believe that ?  I bet the % is still high here that believe it  -  and that was always the problem, not a foreign country manipulating - it was Trump being involved (you forgot to add that)

is that an extreme view in your mind ? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/despite-report-findings-almost-half-of-americans-think-trump-colluded-with-russia-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1R72S0

 Nearly half of all Americans still believe President Donald Trump worked with Russia to interfere in the 2016 presidential election, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted after Special Counsel Robert Mueller cleared Trump of that allegation.

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

When people post a black square on Facebook, I think their conscious reason is to sincerely show support for oppressed or grieving or discontented people and to stand up for what's right and just.

I also think people are generally bad at consciously understanding their own motivations, and that the reasoning that bubbles up into our consciousness is often something more like a just-so rationalization (subconsciously calculated to improve our own self-image) than a true motivating cause.

A lot of behavior involves signaling that we are not consciously aware of as we do it. I suspect that's especially true on social media, which is more about advertising than real action.

All that said, I thing virtue-signaling is generally a good thing, not to be looked down upon. It is much better than vice-signaling.

This is all well-stated and I agree.

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14 minutes ago, zoonation said:

Again, you are conflating things.  That Russia interfered in the 2016 election is not disputed.  By anyone.  But no one is alleging it was rigged or that votes were stolen or that there was fraud.  In 2016 Russia operatives orchestrated a massive disinformation campaign that influenced how voters voted.  that is the allegation.  Not that they changed votes.

So your comparison does not work.

It's bizarre to see people continue to misrepresent Russia's interference while simultaneously claiming that it didn't work.

 

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1 minute ago, Sea Duck said:

It's bizarre to see people continue to misrepresent Russia's interference while simultaneously claiming that it didn't work.

 

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Nothing much was done to mitigate the problem, so we continue to experience the effects (I think some of the social media platforms have tried to self police, but I don't know how effective that's been). Maybe that'll change now.

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6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

how many years were we all told Trump and Russia were together? How many still believe that ?  I bet the % is still high here that believe it  -  and that was always the problem, not a foreign country manipulating - it was Trump being involved (you forgot to add that)

is that an extreme view in your mind ? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/despite-report-findings-almost-half-of-americans-think-trump-colluded-with-russia-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1R72S0

 Nearly half of all Americans still believe President Donald Trump worked with Russia to interfere in the 2016 presidential election, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted after Special Counsel Robert Mueller cleared Trump of that allegation.

Would it make you feel better to learn 1/4 of the country believes the sun goes around the earth?

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7 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

how many years were we all told Trump and Russia were together? How many still believe that ?  I bet the % is still high here that believe it  -  and that was always the problem, not a foreign country manipulating - it was Trump being involved (you forgot to add that)

is that an extreme view in your mind ? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/despite-report-findings-almost-half-of-americans-think-trump-colluded-with-russia-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1R72S0

 Nearly half of all Americans still believe President Donald Trump worked with Russia to interfere in the 2016 presidential election, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted after Special Counsel Robert Mueller cleared Trump of that allegation.

This article was written during the period of time when the public and media had access only to AG Barr’s misleading summary and not the actual Mueller report.

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3 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Land doesn’t vote. People do. Most people live in cities.

Unrelated to your debate, but I think this is really the crux of the issue our country faces.

People who live in cities and people who don't generally want two completely different lifestyles. And they want to be governed differently.

We used to be able to mostly align behind the commonality of the freedoms we enjoy, but that doesn't seem to be working lately.

You have 20-30 pockets of large metropolitan areas that have a different idea for what the country should be like than the entire population of 20-30 states does.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

Biden got 16 more million votes than Hillary while winning fewer counties

This is false. Hillary won 472 counties, Biden won 477. link

This isn't a conspiracy, dude. It just means that more people are moving to big cities.

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9 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:
1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

while winning fewer counties 

Land doesn’t vote. People do. Most people live in cities.

Super complicated.

It also ignores the simple fact that Biden performed better than Hillary in the counties that Trump won. Those votes count, too.

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Just now, RnR said:

Unrelated to your debate, but I think this is really the crux of the issue our country faces.

People who live in cities and people who don't generally want two completely different lifestyles. And they want to be governed differently.

We used to be able to mostly align behind the commonality of the freedoms we enjoy, but that doesn't seem to be working lately.

You have 20-30 pockets of large metropolitan areas that have a different idea for what the country should be like than the entire population of 20-30 states does.

That’s the common narrative. Not actually sure it’s true.   

Anecdotal (not data) but I’m like most New Yorkers - just nothing better than getting away from the concrete. Lots of friends back home yearn to be in an environment where they have greater diversity and exposure to a wider range of middle brow performing arts.

Our commonality is far greater than our differences IME. For too long we have let wedge issues that don’t actually impact our day to day lives drive us further apart.

Im not ready to give into “we’re just too different” to be in the same country. OTOH, if reds want to start seceding, blues are gonna crush ya economically, so maybe slow that roll. But they do have more guns per capita so there’s that.

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5 minutes ago, RnR said:

Unrelated to your debate, but I think this is really the crux of the issue our country faces.

People who live in cities and people who don't generally want two completely different lifestyles. And they want to be governed differently.

We used to be able to mostly align behind the commonality of the freedoms we enjoy, but that doesn't seem to be working lately.

You have 20-30 pockets of large metropolitan areas that have a different idea for what the country should be like than the entire population of 20-30 states does.

I think this is an issue but one that could be managed.  We’ve always had a diversity of views in this country.

From my perspective the problem is that the greedy rich exploits these cultural divides among regular people to manipulate voters.

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4 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

It also ignores the simple fact that Biden performed better than Hillary in the counties that Trump won. Those votes count, too.

Yeah Kornacki has drilled into that a lot - Biden closed the gap big time in the reddest of reds.

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Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I think this is an issue but one that could be managed.  We’ve always had a diversity of views in this country.

From my perspective the problem is that the greedy rich exploits these cultural divides among regular people to manipulate voters.

WWCD

Bof siz. Seriously, the power elite on either side of the aisle DGAF about people, but maintaining their place in the hierarchy - they’ll go to the mattresses over keeping the status quo.

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10 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

This is false. Hillary won 472 counties, Biden won 477. link

This isn't a conspiracy, dude. It just means that more people are moving to big cities.

you are correct - updated counties have Biden winning only 5 more than Hillary and 16 million more votes 

amazing stat

 

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

you are correct - updated counties have Biden winning only 5 more than Hillary and 16 million more votes 

amazing stat

 

Obama 51.1% of the popular vote 

Biden 51.3% of the popular vote

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