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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts?


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5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

you are correct - updated counties have Biden winning only 5 more than Hillary and 16 million more votes 

amazing stat

 

Didn't more people vote? Isn't Trump much less popular?

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Trump should be impeached again. If he's not impeached again, he must be prosecuted. The penalty for attempting to remain in power by corruptly overturning an election cannot simply be that it di

I agree 100%.   This is the slam dunk unity moment.   Everyone show that you readily recognize insanity and sedition.  Everyone show that you put country over party.  There is no world in wh

If the republicans want healing, they can vote the right way on impeachment, a vote ensuring this kind of monstrosity of a presidency never happens again, and work their way to being a civilized party

20 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

how many years were we all told Trump and Russia were together? How many still believe that ?  I bet the % is still high here that believe it  -  and that was always the problem, not a foreign country manipulating - it was Trump being involved (you forgot to add that)

is that an extreme view in your mind ? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/despite-report-findings-almost-half-of-americans-think-trump-colluded-with-russia-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1R72S0

 Nearly half of all Americans still believe President Donald Trump worked with Russia to interfere in the 2016 presidential election, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted after Special Counsel Robert Mueller cleared Trump of that allegation.

Im surprised that number isnt higher and I am one of them.  When the Mueller report sas A  Manafort shared polling informaion with the russians  and B Pretty much the whole inner circle of Trump took a meeting with a member of the russian government  in  an atempt to get dirt on Clinton and C  people within the Trump circle repeatedly lying about all  their contacts with russians I cant honestly think why people would think anything BUT there was coordination between the russians and trump on some level.  Do I think Trump ran everything he did through the russians and vice versa before it was done?  Of course not but to say there was no coordination going on doesnt really fit the facts.  

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here is a neato cheato fact in wisconsin the 40 least populated counties have about the same population together as milwaukee county does by itself take that to the bank brohans 

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8 minutes ago, SWC said:

blake moore from utah was not ready for primetime take that to the bank bromigos

almost as good:

Republican Rep. Jodey Arrington says "the president didn't incite a riot," though Arrington says he's not saying Trump didn't exercise "poor judgment." 

"The criminals who stormed the Capitol that day acted on their own volition," he says.

Did anyone bring receipts? That’s not gonna age well. Pretty sure archived Tweets and footage of his Jan 6 speech will dunk all over this line of reasoning.

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quigley from illinois sounds like a bears fan on the score during who you crappin and it was awesome take that to the bank bromigos 

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5 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Interesting. Have you seen that work well or do you have a thought on it? 

When I was at my Uncle's bar, I casually made mention of Joe Biden being a PA guy and one of the guys at the bar, nicely said, "Hey now" and pointed to the sign. It wasn't a big deal or weird. I just thought it was interesting.

My uncle looked at me and nodded and said quietly, "It's better that way".

It's kind of an old tradition from what I was told. I ran a bar in a former life and more or less had the same policy. It worked wonderfully. If the place was empty and nobody was going to be annoyed, whatever. But it is better that way.

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3 minutes ago, SWC said:

here is a neato cheato fact in wisconsin the 40 least populated counties have about the same population together as milwaukee county does by itself take that to the bank brohans 

The county I grew up in has 60K people over 720 square miles. My current neighborhood has 45K over 75 acres (0.117188 square miles.)

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19 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Obama 51.1% of the popular vote 

Biden 51.3% of the popular vote

Obama won twice as many counties didn't he to get the same % and millions fewer votes 

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19 minutes ago, The General said:

Didn't more people vote? Isn't Trump much less popular?

ahhh that's the million dollar question 

do you think Trump was more popular ? Biden more popular than Hillary ? than Obama ?

 

Cynthia Johnson, a Democrat from Detroit ........... does anyone remember her hateful video on facbook just a year ago ?

 

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since some of us apparently have a thing for counties the jefferson county fair in wisconsin normally has a tilt o whirl and also some great deep fried foods and a carney who used to say jefferson county look alive and it was awesome on the midway take that to the bank brohans 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

ahhh that's the million dollar question 

do you think Trump was more popular ? Biden more popular than Hillary ? than Obama ?

 

Cynthia Johnson, a Democrat from Detroit ........... does anyone remember her hateful video on facbook just a year ago ?

 

Really.  They can't figure this out?  Try doing the reverse.  Who was more unpopular.  Because that is what drove the huge numbers in this election.

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1 minute ago, BobbyLayne said:

IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT

Joe Biden got nearly 13 million more votes in 2020 than Barack Obama did in 2008, but won in several hundred fewer counties.

Record turnout in urban areas added millions of votes to Biden’s total.

Many of the counties Obama won are very small, and didn’t have much effect on his raw vote count.

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4 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

life is tough - a lot of people have it worse 

That sentiment is always good for maintaining perspective. But it doesn’t invalidate your feelings of disappointment, sorrow, frustration. I hope 2021 brings more positive events to your life.  

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7 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

ahhh that's the million dollar question 

do you think Trump was more popular ? Biden more popular than Hillary ? than Obama ?

Cynthia Johnson, a Democrat from Detroit ........... does anyone remember her hateful video on facbook just a year ago ?

It was that Trump was that unpopular. You can stop after this, it's not that complicated.

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8 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

I think to heal and move forward Trump supporters have to at some point be able to at least consider the idea that “maybe I was wrong about this guy. What if he really did coordinate the Wikileaks information drop, meet with Russian operatives, etc. Maybe he lied about the election. Maybe he did incite a mob (or worse) to attempt to delay certification. Maybe the whole thing has been one lie after another” (spoiler: it has).

Instead I’m seeing a lot of “that’s what you get for stealing an election” and “this is the dems America, riots and death.” I don’t know. A large portion of the population is either ignoring reality or just doesn’t care because the ends justify the means.
 

I disagree.

I am not ambivalent to 2016 and the countries reaction.  Hell, my wife even travelled and marched on the capital as part of the women's march.  I get that Trump folks weren't happy about how people handled themselves and may still be upset about it.  There was a time where people refused to even type President Trump.

While not all of 2016 unhappiness subsided quickly, I think in less than a year there were a number of people (like myself) who moved past being mad he was elected president, but moved to being mad about how he approached being president.  As long as Trump supporters can get to the point where were are debating what we do not like about the Biden administration instead of his presidency being illegitimate I think we can get moving forward.

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There needs to be a catch-all "Stream of Consciousness" thread where all these sidebar questions that branch off from main topics - which are answered and then never responded to again - can flow and live.

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42 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

you are correct - updated counties have Biden winning only 5 more than Hillary and 16 million more votes 

amazing stat

 

Why is it amazing? 

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7 hours ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Agreed. I always see that the left needs to do a better job at understanding the right and why they voted for Trump. Why not the opposite? Why shouldn’t Trump supporters be doing a better job at understanding why 81 million Americans are very anti-Trump? 

I would caution against this.  Dont ask others to be better, always ask yourself to be better.  Only try to control what you have control over ... yourself.

:2cents:

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5 hours ago, RnR said:

I'd just like to add that Dolly Parton is considered royalty in the state of Tennessee. And that transcends whatever your political belief system may be.

Example: She sends one hardback children's book per month to every child in the state from birth until kindergarten... for free. Just gets there every month and helps them learn to read.

I'd say she could win the governor's seat in our state as an independent in a landslide victory, but everyone knows Dolly is way too smart to get involved with that. She's ACTUALLY impacts lives daily. Bless her.

No joke, she is a national treasure

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4 hours ago, The General said:

Trump in particular as the prez has the greatest responsibility here and he was the worst offender - frankly it was his main tool in his bag.

Id like to agree with this.

When you are not in power, and complain about how much better it would be when you are in power, I am of the opinion that when you get into power, you don't get to complain any more.

:2cents:

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4 hours ago, The Commish said:

I absolutely this "we will never forget" stuff being spout about as if it's new with Trump.  The "sides" have some of you absolutely snowed.  There's as much hate/vitriol today as there was during the GWB years.  One of my moments of Zen in this whole thing was a post from someone I know who was absolutely disgusted by the shouts to string up Pence.  ALL I could think was "better late than never...at least Obama and Pence have something they can compare notes against".  Can we please stop pretending this kind of stuff from the "sides" is new?  It's a feature, not a bug.

IMHO there is no comparison to today and GWB.

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2 hours ago, The General said:

Thinking the election was rigged is an extremist point of view, no?

No worse than many things posted about in here over the last 4 years. Not even close. 

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5 hours ago, The General said:

 

Trump in particular as the prez has the greatest responsibility here and he was the worst offender - frankly it was his main tool in his bag.

As the supposed leader of not just this country but the free world,  Trump had a responsibility to actually lead. But as we have all seen, he not only failed in that job but continues to fail in that job.

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9 minutes ago, Zow said:

Why is it amazing? 

to believe Biden legitimately got that many more votes we'd have to believe Biden was that much more popular - during covid, with few rallies, few parades etc

can we agree that mail in ballots was the difference in the election ? 

 

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31 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT

Joe Biden got nearly 13 million more votes in 2020 than Barack Obama did in 2008, but won in several hundred fewer counties.

Record turnout in urban areas added millions of votes to Biden’s total.

Many of the counties Obama won are very small, and didn’t have much effect on his raw vote count.

Just make the each voter a county or the entire country one county and then Joe Biden wins the (meaningless) county count.

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11 minutes ago, GoBirds said:

No worse than many things posted about in here over the last 4 years. Not even close. 

Yes, I'm sure some extremist positions were posted on the board.

Do you think the election was rigged?

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

to believe Biden legitimately got that many more votes we'd have to believe Biden was that much more popular - during covid, with few rallies, few parades etc

can we agree that mail in ballots was the difference in the election ? 

 

Don't you see that you explained your own question?  In some places it was so much easier to vote in 2020 than 2008 that someone less popular still picked up a larger share of votes.   Or that when it is easier to vote the democrat gets a larger share of the vote.  

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1 hour ago, RnR said:

Unrelated to your debate, but I think this is really the crux of the issue our country faces.

People who live in cities and people who don't generally want two completely different lifestyles. And they want to be governed differently.

We used to be able to mostly align behind the commonality of the freedoms we enjoy, but that doesn't seem to be working lately.

You have 20-30 pockets of large metropolitan areas that have a different idea for what the country should be like than the entire population of 20-30 states does.

Just want to chime in with my opinion here ... Obama dropped the ball on this.  He is what caused Trumpism IMHO.  Future presidents please take heed.

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11 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

to believe Biden legitimately got that many more votes [b]we'd have to believe Biden was that much more popular[/b] - during covid, with few rallies, few parades etc

can we agree that mail in ballots was the difference in the election ? 

 

Re the bolded, no we wouldn’t. 

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1 hour ago, The General said:

Didn't more people vote? Isn't Trump much less popular?

Im guessing there were a number people like me.  I didnt vote for POTUS in 2016 (left blank).  I did in 2020.

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7 minutes ago, JAA said:

Just want to chime in with my opinion here ... Obama dropped the ball on this.  He is what caused Trumpism IMHO.  Future presidents please take heed.

I’ve heard this before but I’m confused by it. Can you name a specific action Obama should have taken that would have prevented Trump? 

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Just now, timschochet said:

I’ve heard this before but I’m confused by it. Can you name a specific action Obama should have taken that would have prevented Trump? 

If Obama had been able to extend the presidency term limits, then we wouldn't be dealing with Trump.

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24 minutes ago, The Commish said:
27 minutes ago, JAA said:

IMHO there is no comparison to today and GWB.

Not sure how you can forget all the "W was the mastermind of 9/11" stuff :shrug:

I have no recollection of that

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Kevin McCarthy - "We solve our disputes at the ballot box,"

says the party who tried to overturn what happened at the ballot box.

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2 minutes ago, urbanhack said:

Kevin McCarthy - "We solve our disputes at the ballot box,"

says the party who tried to overturn what happened at the ballot box.

That seems to be part of the gameplan: Lie and accuse the other side of doing what you are going to do. It's a weird strategy that, on some level, is working.

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:
18 minutes ago, JAA said:

Just want to chime in with my opinion here ... Obama dropped the ball on this.  He is what caused Trumpism IMHO.  Future presidents please take heed.

I’ve heard this before but I’m confused by it. Can you name a specific action Obama should have taken that would have prevented Trump? 

Obama ignored the right.  He advocated for all people in ACA, but what he failed to realize is that ~50% of the country didn't want it.  They dont want govt involved in their lives.  I cant stress it enough, but folks on the left must read Dying of Whiteness.  In the book there are right-leaning, less govt, rural individuals who are dying of cancer.  They cant afford health care.  They are getting less care and worse care without ACA.  However, you can listen to them say during interviews  "I don't want the govt involved" even when it was explained to them how ACA would make their lives better.  It is a very moving and compelling book IMHO.

We have to listen to people.  Obama told people how to feel and didn't listen.  His heart was in the right place, don't get me wrong, but he didn't understand 50% of the population.

Edited by JAA
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4 minutes ago, urbanhack said:

Kevin McCarthy - "We solve our disputes at the ballot box,"

says the party who tried to overturn what happened at the ballot box.

His internal dialog began with "now that Trump has no use to me..."

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1 hour ago, da_budman said:

Im surprised that number isnt higher and I am one of them.  When the Mueller report sas A  Manafort shared polling informaion with the russians  and B Pretty much the whole inner circle of Trump took a meeting with a member of the russian government  in  an atempt to get dirt on Clinton and C  people within the Trump circle repeatedly lying about all  their contacts with russians I cant honestly think why people would think anything BUT there was coordination between the russians and trump on some level.  Do I think Trump ran everything he did through the russians and vice versa before it was done?  Of course not but to say there was no coordination going on doesnt really fit the facts.  

To be fair, even if ALL of that happened, that is not the same as saying Russia (or anyone) committed election fraud by changing votes, submitting fake ballots, etc.

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26 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

to believe Biden legitimately got that many more votes we'd have to believe Biden was that much more popular - during covid, with few rallies, few parades etc

can we agree that mail in ballots was the difference in the election ? 

 

1. I don't find that amazing.

2. I'm not learned enough on the issue to say it was the difference but I'd that mail in voting was a significant factor and likely favored Biden. 

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1 hour ago, da_budman said:

Im surprised that number isnt higher and I am one of them.  When the Mueller report sas A  Manafort shared polling informaion with the russians  and B Pretty much the whole inner circle of Trump took a meeting with a member of the russian government  in  an atempt to get dirt on Clinton and C  people within the Trump circle repeatedly lying about all  their contacts with russians I cant honestly think why people would think anything BUT there was coordination between the russians and trump on some level.  Do I think Trump ran everything he did through the russians and vice versa before it was done?  Of course not but to say there was no coordination going on doesnt really fit the facts.  

but the facts of Biden getting 16 million more votes legally makes sense ?

 

see, things like that baffle me - and I think its just the human mind needing to justify what we want

Democrats WANT to believe that many people really did vote, Republicans WANT to believe that many people didn't

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4 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

Dismissing concerns and angers wholesale is exactly what has created this mess. These reactions are exactly what has brought us to where we are. When we dismiss concerns outright without seeking common ground or dialogue, it just pushes people to be more extreme as we excluded them.

Frankly, I think that the vast majority of complaints around the treatment of Trump are unfounded. But I do think that there WERE some valid points that everyone just washes over, excuses, or pretends didn’t happen. The Steele dossier was a bunch of garbage, almost certainly funded and backed by Hillary’s folks and the DNC, and was known to be all of that early on. That’s a legitimate complaint that Trump supporters have and when it was ignored and downplayed, it just reinforced the belief that Trump was never going to get a fair shake.

Likewise, the legitimate fears of a large amount of people concerning immigration were completely ignored or called out as bigoted. For many blue collar workers, fears of losing their jobs in a modernizing world were already a reality along with questions of how they would compete in a global economy where kids making a penny a day for 18 hours of work in a sweatshop in Asia. Add in the prospect of potentially a large influx of more workers to compete in those labor markets and I think the fear of many people should have been understandable. But contingent was largely ignored and their concerns left unaddressed by both parties until a more extreme voice entered the picture and became their voice. He gave voice to all of the worst parts of their concerns, but he was the only voice and so they backed him. 

When we’re unwilling to look past the surface to figure out what the true heart and the true concerns are behind stances/issues/etc, we’ve already lost the battle and are just contributing to the polarization.

I have been thinking about your post a bit while at work.   I agree with the sentiment of your post and your examples of what rational fears would be. I forgot what some of them were in the post and were going to bring some of these up.   

So yes, I would say that in general we need to listen to others and understand these feelings.  I believe most of us at the core have similar worries - jobs, kids, how we are leaving the planet, etc, etc.   That is unifying I don't think a single one of us is against having a rational, intelligent debate on how we would approach those things from any side of the aisle.  

However, where the problem is, and this is the stuff that social media is making more prevalent are non-starter fears like Trump is a nazi, the election was stolen, lib cities and mayors are evil, heavy call out culture, etc.    Sorry, but a lot of that stuff is what we are not dealing with, and I believe this is the type of stuff that Tim is talking about and at least I am talking about.   That is what is going to make healing and coming together near impossible. 

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

but the facts of Biden getting 16 million more votes legally makes sense ?

 

see, things like that baffle me - and I think its just the human mind needing to justify what we want

Democrats WANT to believe that many people really did vote, Republicans WANT to believe that many people didn't

A key issue I see in what you wrote.

Trump and MAGA wing want to believe what you are saying. These are extremist positions.

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12 minutes ago, The General said:

A key issue I see in what you wrote.

Trump and MAGA wing want to believe what you are saying. These are extremist positions.

Especially when it is so easily explained with higher voter turnout.  This isn't even in the realm of improbable.  Everyone knew before the election there would be record turnout.

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33 minutes ago, JAA said:

Obama ignored the right.  He advocated for all people in ACA, but what he failed to realize is that ~50% of the country didn't want it.  They dont want govt involved in their lives. 

Sorry for my naivety but for these 50% who don't want government involved in their lives, what is their opinion on Medicare?  :confused:

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5 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

How did Trump get 11.2 million more votes than 2016?

Guy had the worst approval polling on record, never tipped 50%, 4th President to be impeached, told 26,000 lies, unpopular with Vets, women, my daughter’s ballet troupe, et al.

Something is not adding up, fellas.

Antifa, probably.

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Here's my personal anecdote, for what it's worth.  I work for a local government in one of the battleground states, and part of my job is working very closely with local clerks who run our elections on the town/village/city/county level.  I know many of them personally, both conservatives and liberals.  I will say that these people, without exception, are all 100% focused on running honest elections, following the law, and making sure votes are counted quickly and accurately.  They are not political operatives, they are not doing the job for power or money or influence.  It's a crappy, thankless job and they are doing it out of a sense of civic duty and engagement.  These are my neighbors and fellow public servants who care about making their little local section of government operate effectively.  So when I hear these grand conspiracy theories about dead people voting, votes being counted twice, IDs and signatures not being required and all kinds of other stuff with no proof, it really bothers me.  I have never missed an election since I turned 18 decades ago.  I voted via absentee ballot this time because of Covid.  I had to upload a pic of my driver's license to the state website in order to get a ballot mailed to me by my local clerk.  I had to sign my envelope and have it signed by a witness.  Both signatures were checked against signature databases before the ballot was accepted.  The ballot can only be counted once electronically because it has a unique ID.  Trump ordered and received a recount here and the counts came out nearly identical.  Beyond that, Conservatives control all levels of state government here (including the supreme court) except the governorship. Yes, changes to election law were made quickly but it was due to Covid, not a Democratic plot to steal.  These changes were challenged by Trump in court and the conservative majority Supreme Court dismissed his case.  There simply was no widespread voter fraud, or even an attempt at it.  The system that is in place to run elections and count votes is sound and being run by real, competent, honest people...not by Trump's or Biden's operatives.  I never questioned the integrity of the election in 2016 when I was mad that Trump won, and I don't question it now in 2020 when I am happy that he lost.  I'm not sure any article or explanation is going to convince conservative skeptics that the number of votes for Biden was legit.  And that's fine...but I wish they could see what I see and have the confidence that I have in the system because it would help us all move forward.    

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it was easier to vote this election and more people voted as a result and with more turnout both candidates got more votes than any other candidates before this isnt rocket science its only hard if you are trying to work some bs angle and thats actual and factual jackual take that to the bank brohans 

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