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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (1 Viewer)

Let the recounts happen, and see the litigation to its conclusion and that number will surely go down over time.
I’m not convinced of this yet, BB.  I’m hopeful but many of these same supporters believe things like Qanon, birtherism and pizzagate.  It’s impossible to reconcile.  And to be fair - there’s some crazy stuff on the other side that I would say the same thing about if they were claiming Hillary won in 2016.

 
I’m not convinced of this yet, BB.  I’m hopeful but many of these same supporters believe things like Qanon, birtherism and pizzagate.  It’s impossible to reconcile.  And to be fair - there’s some crazy stuff on the other side that I would say the same thing about if they were claiming Hillary won in 2016.
I know several people who are into none of this, but absolutely believe the election is being "stolen".  It is a much larger group on this one.

 
There's roughly 70% of 71M people who believe the election was fraudulent.  If they continue to believe that after Jan 20, how can there possibly be reconciliation?  How do you make peace when a significant number of people believe the Biden presidency is a sham?
Especially when there’s no IRL ignore function.

 
I know several people who are into none of this, but absolutely believe the election is being "stolen".  It is a much larger group on this one.
True but my hope is that once the court challenges are exhausted, and especially once Biden takes over, the number of those who believe that it was stolen will be reduced down the conspiracy types- maybe 40% of conservatives. Still too high a number but less than 70%. 
That’s my hope. Rush Limbaugh and Mike Pompeo are NOT helping. 

 
Or as an alternative, it could evolve into something like the JFK assassination. 

Ever since it happened, roughly half of this nation has believed that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone and that the government was somehow involved. Yet this belief has not seriously affected trust in future elections or our system of government. If the “2020 election was stolen!” meme ended up something like this, it could be OK. 

 
Yeah it could happen.  Don't judge people by their political beliefs.

Boom.  Done.

People aren't wacky socialists because they vote democratic

People aren't racists because they vote republican.
It’s not political beliefs. 

It’s racism. It’s anti-science. Things like that. 

Sorry but I will and do judge people for expressing these beliefs. 

 
One path towards healing is, IMO, the recognition that people don’t know what the hell they believe. I’m of the assumption that if we took the average  Biden supporter and the average Trump supporter their beliefs aren’t that much different. Neither is a racist. Both believe, essentially in capitalism. Both believe in personal freedom. Even were I to get more specific I’m still not sure how many significant differences there would be. 
By far the biggest difference between the two, IMO, is their perception of each other. The Trump fan thinks the Biden fan is a socialist who hates them and their way of life. The Biden fan thinks the Trump fan is a racist who hates them and their way of life. Even here the beliefs are similar, though opposite. 

 
Not really sure what "things" the tens of millions are doing that you want them to stop doing. I doubt they'll stop supporting things Republicans mostly have supported for the past 30 years.
Without intending to ... I think you have trivialized Trumpism quite a bit with the part in red. When people have been speaking about "tens of millions" of supporters in these recent post-election threads, they mean "the firm portion of Trump's base", not "philosophical conservatives". While there is some overlap, my opinions is that the two groups are nowhere near interchangeable in debate.

Cliffs Notes -- The centerline of conservatism (to exclude the fringe) is unobjectionable. The centerline of Trumpism (also to exclude the fringe) is apparently drawn in a very different place.

 
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See?  Impossible.

But the left isn't culpable.  OK!
I'm supposed to accept racism as ok to begin healing?  I'm supposed to reserve judgement and just say fine lets be friends and go get ice cream together and wash it under the rug?  

The responsibility is on me to do this?  

If this is what healing means to you then yeah, count me out.  

 
I'm supposed to accept racism as ok to begin healing?  I'm supposed to reserve judgement and just say fine lets be friends and go get ice cream together and wash it under the rug?  

The responsibility is on me to do this?  

If this is what healing means to you then yeah, count me out.  
Ok..You're counted out.

 
who acted pretty much like the winners in 2012 doing the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style. 
Are you talking about Obama in 2012?  When did this happen?  When he finally threw his arms up in the air in year 8 and started doing executive orders?  Or when a few stray comments from early 2009 are used repeatedly to frame an alternate reality on non cooperation?

I'm guessing the exact same thing that happened 2009 through 2016 is going to happen again.  Biden is going to desperately try to build consensus with the "party of no" but even if a deal is reached with GOP leadership for something it will collapse when the phones start to ring.   And  we will hear constantly how its "both sides".   And you'll  flag this with a sad emoticon making me wonder if you are sad because I believe such things?  Or if you are sad because I am probably correct?  Because I'm not exactly thrilled either.

 
Yup.

My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."

And every person in Rush's audience that hears that will naturally agree with Rush that no way should they try to reconcile when the "other side" has that stance. 

It's 100% human nature. 

We've had four years to see how the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style works.

My fear is we're heading for four more years of the same. We'll see. 
We, without a doubt, are headed for 4 more years of the same.

Maybe red & blue can shake hands in 24.

 
We, without a doubt, are headed for 4 more years of the same.

Maybe red & blue can shake hands in 24.
We'll see. I get discouraged but I also think we have a chance to see what kind of leadership we get here. From the new and the old. One of the main reasons I thought Biden was the right guy from the beginning is he could be a "bridge" to the Republican side.

This Time To Heal is what I mean. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/clinching-victory-president-elect-biden-declares-time-heal-america-n1247013

"I'll work as hard for those who didn't vote for me as those who did," Biden said. "Let this grim era of demonization in America begin to end here and now."
(To the people who voted for Trump)

"I understand your disappointment tonight. I’ve lost a couple of times myself," Biden said. "But now let’s give each other a chance."

"It’s time to put away the harsh rhetoric, lower the temperature, see each other again," he said, adding that the American people had given him a "mandate" to usher in an era of cooperation.
And newer people like Pete Buttigieg I feel certain will have a chance to make an impact. And I think he gets it. I'm hopeful there will be more. We'll see. But it'll take some work. We'll see if the people follow the leaders. 

 
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We'll see. I get discouraged but I also think we have a chance to see what kind of leadership we get here. From the new and the old. One of the main reasons I thought Biden was the right guy from the beginning is he could be a "bridge" to the Republican side.

This Time To Heal is what I mean. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/clinching-victory-president-elect-biden-declares-time-heal-america-n1247013

"I'll work as hard for those who didn't vote for me as those who did," Biden said. "Let this grim era of demonization in America begin to end here and now."

And newer people like Pete Buttigieg I feel certain will have a chance to make an impact. And I think he gets it. I'm hopeful there will be more. We'll see. But it'll take some work. We'll see if the people follow the leaders. 
There are some deep wounds to heal. Hopefully, things don’t get bad & cooler heads prevail.

Maybe things will go smoother than I think, but I’m extremely leery.
 

 
There are some deep wounds to heal. Hopefully, things don’t get bad & cooler heads prevail.

Maybe things will go smoother than I think, but I’m extremely leery.
 
We'll see. Clearly there are folks adamantly opposed to healing and reconciliation. It'll be interesting if Biden and the other leaders can sway them. 

 
We'll see. I get discouraged but I also think we have a chance to see what kind of leadership we get here. From the new and the old. One of the main reasons I thought Biden was the right guy from the beginning is he could be a "bridge" to the Republican side.

This Time To Heal is what I mean. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/clinching-victory-president-elect-biden-declares-time-heal-america-n1247013

And newer people like Pete Buttigieg I feel certain will have a chance to make an impact. And I think he gets it. I'm hopeful there will be more. We'll see. But it'll take some work. We'll see if the people follow the leaders. 
I totally understand what you are saying and trying to do. I really do. And I have no interest in any kind of enemies list from all the people that disappointed me the last 4 years. They will never, and I literally mean never, get my vote again for what they did. I don't judge every Trump voter that way. I do hold the leaders accountable a great deal. And they deserve derision,  dishonor and disrepute of all kinds until they fade away into yet another dark corner of our history.

I hope we come out of this better. I really do. I have no intention of moving forward with Trump, McConnell, Pompeo and Burr. I only need them to be defeated. Loudly. Publicly. And for good. We need to move past them. And quickly.

 
We'll see. Clearly there are folks adamantly opposed to healing and reconciliation. It'll be interesting if Biden and the other leaders can sway them. 
Well let’s get practical here. The way Biden can sway them is to push a moderate liberal agenda: infrastructure, healthcare reform, an organized approach to Covid, a serious but moderate response to climate change. Simply put, he has to stay away from the progressive agenda of heavy taxation and Green New Deal. If he does that I think he has a chance to attract centrist Republicans to his side. Conservative Republicans and Trump supporters will never support Biden but maybe they’ll at least decide he is simply someone who disagrees with them and not evil. 
The center left and the center right need to try and compromise to take back control of this country’s politics from the extremists on both sides. 

 
Let the recounts happen, and see the litigation to its conclusion and that number will surely go down over time.
:goodposting:

It's anecdotal but I'm seeing this in person. I'm in a group text with some guys and most are Trump voters and one made a comment yesterday about the great vaccine news being released well after the election saying "Interesting timing..."

Another (Trump voting) guy texted to him in the group, "Dude. Let it go."

They aren't nearly as attention getting and CNN never picks out their tweets to put in an article but I personally have Trump voting friends who are reasonable on this. 

 
:goodposting:

It's anecdotal but I'm seeing this in person. I'm in a group text with some guys and most are Trump voters and one made a comment yesterday about the great vaccine news being released well after the election saying "Interesting timing..."

Another (Trump voting) guy texted to him in the group, "Dude. Let it go."

They aren't nearly as attention getting and CNN never picks out their tweets to put in an article but I personally have Trump voting friends who are reasonable on this. 
Man I hope you’re right. I really really want to believe this is true. 

 
I'm for sure right my friends are seeing this. The question is how indicative my friends are of the population at large. 
Im seeing some of the same.  Unfortunately also seeing the “you want healing after the last 4 years you hypocrites?” And complaints about media and “big tech” not telling all the fraud stories.

 
And to add, I guess seeing this up close with my Trump voting friends is why I'm sensitive to the people who want to take the "NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not." stance. 

You have a Trump guy who thought he was going to win, then loses, then has people telling him it was shady, but then hears Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg seemingly reaching across the aisle to try and pull everyone together.

He starts to soften a little and think maybe Biden and Buttigieg are sincere. He's leaning back to rationality.

And then the first Democrat he runs into calls him an angry badger that ought to be at arms length and thrown on the enemies list and never trusted again. 

Then that guy heads right back to Ben Shapiro and Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson who tell him, "I told you that's how that side is. Biden talks a good game but that's now how it really is". 

Which means, I think a good bit of how this goes is on us. 

 
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And then the first Democrat he runs into calls him an angry badger 
Maybe he runs into that guy, but maybe he’s looking for that guy. If you want to be pissed off by the other side there’s always plenty out there, 24/7, that you can find. That will never change. 

 
Step one is for people to admit they were living in a fantasy world of lies. My understanding is that the reconciliation step comes after the stop doing meth step.

 
Step one is for people to admit they were living in a fantasy world of lies. My understanding is that the reconciliation step comes after the stop doing meth step.
Good luck with that. 

The "We'll maybe welcome you back but only after you fully confess how wrong you were and you were duped" doesn't have a high success rate for conversion. At least when you're dealing with humans who aren't being physically coerced to comply. 

If the goal is to make sure the other side is punished sufficiently before forgiveness is offered, you probably should save everyone time and just stay divided. 

 
Maybe he runs into that guy, but maybe he’s looking for that guy. If you want to be pissed off by the other side there’s always plenty out there, 24/7, that you can find. That will never change. 
Not really. I'm saying if you have a person that is starting to lean the way you're hoping he'll go and instead of inviting him to join you like Biden and Buttigieg are doing, you instead treat the guy like he's an angry badger, you just lost the guy. 

 
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Good luck with that. 

The "We'll maybe welcome you back but only after you fully confess how wrong you were and you were duped" doesn't have a high success rate for conversion. At least when you're dealing with humans who aren't being physically coerced to comply. 

If the goal is to make sure the other side is punished sufficiently before forgiveness is offered, you probably should save everyone time and just stay divided. 
My fear with accepting people back and healing is that it's getting close to saying their racism is ok.  Or that their denial of science is ok.  How do we heal but also communicate that things like that are unacceptable.  

Racism and science denial was just defeated.  That should be built on.  

 
My fear with accepting people back and healing is that it's getting close to saying their racism is ok.  Or that their denial of science is ok.  How do we heal but also communicate that things like that are unacceptable.  

Racism and science denial was just defeated.  That should be built on.  
I understand. And I think that's likely tough to do in big broad generalizations. In my experience, it's making big statements like Biden did with the speech:

"I'll work as hard for those who didn't vote for me as those who did," Biden said. "Let this grim era of demonization in America begin to end here and now."

 (To the people who voted for Trump)

"I understand your disappointment tonight. I’ve lost a couple of times myself," Biden said. "But now let’s give each other a chance."

"It’s time to put away the harsh rhetoric, lower the temperature, see each other again," he said, adding that the American people had given him a "mandate" to usher in an era of cooperation.
And then when it comes to us and how we interact, we have to use good judgement and discernment as we deal with people up close. 

 
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Not really. I'm saying if you have a person that is starting to lean the way you're hoping he'll go and instead of inviting him to join you like Biden and Buttigieg are doing, you instead treat the guy like he's an angry badger, you just lost the guy. 
I agree with you. I’m simply suggesting that there are some people, on every side, looking and ready to be outraged by the other side, and they can always find something to be outraged about. But those of us of good will still need to be as welcoming as we can, without surrendering our core principles. 

 
Not really. I'm saying if you have a person that is starting to lean the way you're hoping he'll go and instead of inviting him to join you like Biden and Buttigieg are doing, you instead treat the guy like he's an angry badger, you just lost the guy. 
We will continue to be dysfunctional as long as a meaningful % of us are driven by feelings instead of facts. 

 
My fear with accepting people back and healing is that it's getting close to saying their racism is ok.  Or that their denial of science is ok.  How do we heal but also communicate that things like that are unacceptable.  

Racism and science denial was just defeated.  That should be built on.  
What the what?

This is a false equivalency if there ever was one and one of the broadest generalizations I've ever read.

Congrats on your double whammy of a logical fallacy!

 
Step one is for people to admit they were living in a fantasy world of lies. My understanding is that the reconciliation step comes after the stop doing meth step.
Cool.  Or some people preferred Trump and the Republican agenda to Hillary or Biden and the Democratic agenda.

But I guess calling the other side evil or stupid does help stir up the vote.

 
On a Fox exit poll, 72% wanted some kind of Medicare for all.  I know the people on Medicare are screaming for something better.  Why not private it all.

 
Good luck with that. 

The "We'll maybe welcome you back but only after you fully confess how wrong you were and you were duped" doesn't have a high success rate for conversion. At least when you're dealing with humans who aren't being physically coerced to comply. 

If the goal is to make sure the other side is punished sufficiently before forgiveness is offered, you probably should save everyone time and just stay divided. 
I find that many are offended by the idea that I would want to forgive them - they think they’ve done nothing wrong, I do.  I have no idea how to reconcile that so I don’t even broach the subject.

 
My fear with accepting people back and healing is that it's getting close to saying their racism is ok.  Or that their denial of science is ok.  How do we heal but also communicate that things like that are unacceptable.  

Racism and science denial was just defeated.  That should be built on.  
It really comes down to.....what approach do you think is most effective at getting people to hear each other and change their own views?

My parents got over their homophobia and anti-immigrant views gradually.  I tried to debate and bully them into changing — that didn’t work at all.  Then they got exposed to different types of people via work, volunteering, etc.  Suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, they were pro-gay marriage and immigration.

Thats been my experience (x100) with most people.  The more I argue and assert and debate.....the more people dig their heels in.   
 

When I’m at my best as a person, I try to live my life free of judgment.  My experience is that people are more likely to be attracted to my ideas and views then.  If I’m a bully or constantly debating everything.....not so much.   It’s a lifelong journey.  I struggle with this concept every day when I wake up.

 
Cool.  Or some people preferred Trump and the Republican agenda to Hillary or Biden and the Democratic agenda.

But I guess calling the other side evil or stupid does help stir up the vote.
Racism is evil and is featured prominently in Trump's agenda.

Trump's agenda is so far removed from a regular Republican candidate's agenda, its not comparable. It's not that simple. 

 
Based on what? This was a Republican talking point but there’s no evidence of it. 
Many of my physician friends believe he shows dementia symptoms.   Now that's an unofficial diagnosis, but these are real physicians that understand what dementia looks like.

 
Many of my physician friends believe he shows dementia symptoms.   Now that's an unofficial diagnosis, but these are real physicians that understand what dementia looks like.
I have lots of minority friends that believe Trump shows signs of racism. It’s not an official diagnosis, but these are real people who know what racism looks like.

 

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