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Will you get a Covid vaccine when available?


gianmarco

Covid vaccine  

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10 minutes ago, matuski said:

Again - you don't seem genuine here.  This isn't how this goes logically.

More like you have already spent a year with the lion in your bed.  And now the lion isnt even in your bed, its been all but exterminated.

This exactly equals "COVID, as presented to the American public, has been a hoax" IMHO.

Do these nurses generally think "protect the vulnerable" and COVID should've run freely through the "unvulnerable" of American society?

...

I brought my wife to the emergency room in March. A nurse practitioner** treated her. While we were in the room, right in front of my wife and I, the N.P. was talking to another staffer about how COVID is no danger to anyone and was saying "... I can't believe people are worried about a 98% chance of nothing happening ..."

Well. She was speaking off the cuff, of course. But let's take her percentage and knock it down an order of magnitude. From one in 50 to one in 500. It's not ridiculous for someone to feel they have to mitigate against a novel virus that's got a one in 500 chance of "something happening". Heck, still not ridiculous IMHO if you knock it down 100-fold more, down to a one in 50,000 chance.
 

** I realize an N.P. and an R.N. are different things.

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23 minutes ago, matuski said:

More like you have already spent a year with the lion in your bed.  And now the lion isnt even in your bed, its been all but exterminated.

So ... these COVID nurses were only wearing PPE because their employers required it? They'd have been willing to treat COVID patients without PPE? The lion of COVID was so tame that these nurses had absolutely no concerns with catching the virus?

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1 hour ago, matuski said:

It is more like arguing for kids to wear bullet proof vests.  

No. Tens Millions of infectious people moving about.. Somewhat unlikely to get in an accident bad enough to be hurt, but still Hundreds of thousands dead. Simple precaution with a miniscule downside apart from trivial discomfort that is proven to all but eliminate risk. 

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I have had the “long term effects of vaccines” argument with my wife many times. Essentially we have no idea what the long term effects of even a mild COVID infection may be, but data suggests there is a risk of “long-haul” issues.

With vaccines, we are very aware of the short-term effects, and oddly enough we are fairly well versed in the long term effects, most notably a good chance of being free of that disease for the duration of the vaccine’s efficacy. That is pretty much it. Even the mRNA vaccines are not known to have any lasting side effects. They have been studied since the early 90’s. Yes, this is a technology that is new to human use, but the technology is 30 years old.

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34 minutes ago, [icon] said:

No. Tens Millions of infectious people moving about.. Somewhat unlikely to get in an accident bad enough to be hurt, but still Hundreds of thousands dead. Simple precaution with a miniscule downside apart from trivial discomfort that is proven to all but eliminate risk. 

Yes.

The numbers.  Black and white.  Young healthy people simply don't have much to worry about with covid.  It is hilarious for the world to try and lecture healthcare workers who were literally there on the front line... unvaccinated.

And you don't know the downside.. because there isn't long term data.  Most likely correct, but this cannot be stated as fact.

Edited by matuski
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15 minutes ago, Cold Dead Hands said:

I have had the “long term effects of vaccines” argument with my wife many times. Essentially we have no idea what the long term effects of even a mild COVID infection may be, but data suggests there is a risk of “long-haul” issues.

With vaccines, we are very aware of the short-term effects, and oddly enough we are fairly well versed in the long term effects, most notably a good chance of being free of that disease for the duration of the vaccine’s efficacy. That is pretty much it. Even the mRNA vaccines are not known to have any lasting side effects. They have been studied since the early 90’s. Yes, this is a technology that is new to human use, but the technology is 30 years old.

There isn't an argument.

There is no long term data on the new vaccines.

More than likely your logic is correct... but you have no leg to stand on regarding the long term data - there isn't any.

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40 minutes ago, [icon] said:

No. Tens Millions of infectious people moving about.. Somewhat unlikely to get in an accident bad enough to be hurt, but still Hundreds of thousands dead. Simple precaution with a miniscule downside apart from trivial discomfort that is proven to all but eliminate risk. 

Young people literally 5x-8x more likely to die by gunshot than covid. 

Not in the abstract.. in the actual.

eta - these comparisons and metaphors are stupid.  But while we are at it lets use highly highly highly unlikely scenarios to compare, to more realistically represent the risk.

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7 minutes ago, matuski said:

And you don't know the downside.. because there isn't long term data.  Most likely correct, but this cannot be stated as fact.

This will always be true. There's no cutoff date when this argument goes away, is there?

"We only have 20 years of data ... what happens in year 21? We don't know."

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5 minutes ago, Doug B said:

This will always be true. There's no cutoff date when this argument goes away, is there?

"We only have 20 years of data ... what happens in year 21? We don't know."

I have never heard anyone argue 20 year data wasn't long term in my career of using data clinically.... have you?  In fact 1-2 year data is usually the bar we have to cross to show short to mid term... we don't even have that.

The need to use unrealistic examples to argue the point kind of makes the point.

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Just now, matuski said:

I have never heard anyone argue 20 year data wasn't long term in my career of using data clinically.... have you?

That's fine. Pinpoint "long term," then. Scratch "pinpoint" -- a ballpark figure is helpful, too.

Do you know anyone personally that is actually waiting for, say, two or three years to pass and then will likely be eager to take the COVID vaccine? Are you quite sure it's not politics/worldview first, politics/worldview second, and then ... "oh yeah, no long term data! ... that's the ticket ..."?

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15 minutes ago, Doug B said:

That's fine. Pinpoint "long term," then. Scratch "pinpoint" -- a ballpark figure is helpful, too.

Do you know anyone personally that is actually waiting for, say, two or three years to pass and then will likely be eager to take the COVID vaccine? Are you quite sure it's not politics/worldview first, politics/worldview second, and then ... "oh yeah, no long term data! ... that's the ticket ..."?

It’s tough for any of us to honestly differentiate our own views between logic-driven decisions vs pure rationalization.

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33 minutes ago, matuski said:

Yes.

The numbers.  Black and white.  Young healthy people simply don't have much to worry about with covid.  It is hilarious for the world to try and lecture healthcare workers who were literally there on the front line... unvaccinated.

And you don't know the downside.. because there isn't long term data.  Most likely correct, but this cannot be stated as fact.

All the health care workers I know were concerned about it and gladly used PPE and got the vaccine as early as possible. It’s not like the health care workers universally didn’t think it was a big deal. 

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1 hour ago, matuski said:

Yes.

The numbers.  Black and white.  Young healthy people simply don't have much to worry about with covid.  It is hilarious for the world to try and lecture healthcare workers who were literally there on the front line... unvaccinated.

And you don't know the downside.. because there isn't long term data.  Most likely correct, but this cannot be stated as fact.

Absolutely untrue. Tell that to all those suffering with long Covid. You can't just focus on death numbers here. Quality of life means something too. It appears there is some question on the number affected. I was seeing 30% for a while. I've also recently seen 10%. So split the difference at 20% of infections. A 1/5 chance if you get infected with Covid your quality of life could take a pretty nasty turn and we don't know if we are talking weeks, months, years, indefinitely. I'll take my chances with the vaccine.

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18 minutes ago, cap'n grunge said:

Absolutely untrue. Tell that to all those suffering with long Covid. You can't just focus on death numbers here. Quality of life means something to most of us.

If I were talking to someone with long covid, would the numbers change?

You pick the numbers, feel free to go look at whatever covid metric you want.  Watch what happens when you get below 50.  Then look at below 20.... what risk?

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40 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

All the health care workers I know were concerned about it and gladly used PPE and got the vaccine as early as possible. It’s not like the health care workers universally didn’t think it was a big deal. 

:lmao:

Having a linear conversation here has never been less possible.

Thanks for taking this tangent... maybe someone else can follow you there.

eta - im gonna go on a limb and suggest I know more people in healthcare.  Many did what you describe.  Many did not and have not.

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59 minutes ago, Doug B said:

That's fine. Pinpoint "long term," then. Scratch "pinpoint" -- a ballpark figure is helpful, too.

Do you know anyone personally that is actually waiting for, say, two or three years to pass and then will likely be eager to take the COVID vaccine? Are you quite sure it's not politics/worldview first, politics/worldview second, and then ... "oh yeah, no long term data! ... that's the ticket ..."?

No - they are saying they don't see the risk to themselves or their kids from covid.  For them it is something they have quantified personally over the last year+.  They then take that known (to them) quantity and weigh it versus the vaccine.

If you fear covid, you view it as a risk, you see a larger need for the vaccine.  

If you don't have a fear of it, if you don't view it as a risk, you see less need.  You may even see the small risk of side effects from the vaccine as the greater risk.

I'll be in a procedure where everyone is vaccinated, that same afternoon a case where only one or two in the room are.  Those vaccinated are no more credible than those who are not... they simply came to a different conclusion.

Edited by matuski
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Very happy to report that my 15 year old got his 2nd pfizer Monday. Reading the last page of this thread, I'm selfishly relieved I no longer need to convince anyone the sky is blue for the protection of my immediate family.

Edited by BigJim®
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2 hours ago, matuski said:

Young people literally 5x-8x more likely to die by gunshot than covid. 

Are They? 
So you're saying (Total u18 kids / u18 Kids murdered (remove suicides) > (Total u18 kids who have or had COVID / u18 Kids died of Covid)? 

You sure? I think you might want to check your math again. 

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16 minutes ago, [icon] said:

Are They? 
So you're saying (Total u18 kids / u18 Kids murdered (remove suicides) > (Total u18 kids who have or had COVID / u18 Kids died of Covid)? 

You sure? I think you might want to check your math again. 

That is not what I said.

You might want to go back and start over.

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Death isn't the only downside of a disease, and Covid-19 is showing some pretty harsh long-term effects.   "Young people probably won't die" is a pretty flimsy excuse to avoid vaccination.   

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20 minutes ago, E-Z Glider said:

I love when drug reps think they’re doctors :lmao:

Not a drug rep.  

I love when posters have to resort to the personal attempts when they can't articulate a point.  :lmao:

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Plus side, I got some pretty awesome seats behind home plate for a Mariner's game next week in a fully-vaccinated section.   It probably has more to do with the fact that they suck, but whatever.

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1 hour ago, Doug B said:

Depends on who's asking.

That day was not hypothetical.

Two tenured vascular surgeons.  Two sets of tenured staff in the room.

Your criteria for measuring the credibility of MDs is based on their choice to be vaccinated or not?

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2 hours ago, matuski said:

:lmao:

Having a linear conversation here has never been less possible.

Thanks for taking this tangent... maybe someone else can follow you there.

eta - im gonna go on a limb and suggest I know more people in healthcare.  Many did what you describe.  Many did not and have not.

Many were peer pressured into getting it.

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Just now, IC FBGCav said:

Many were peer pressured into getting it.

Yes.

Peer pressure might not be the right word.  For me - I assumed I was going to be forced to have it sooner or later, so I chose sooner.  I didn't care one way or the other.

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6 minutes ago, matuski said:

That day was not hypothetical.

Two tenured vascular surgeons.  Two sets of tenured staff in the room.

Your criteria for credibility in medical decisions is based on their choice to be vaccinated or not?

I would not accept treatment from a physician of any kind who refuses to vaccinate.   I would strongly question their credibility and decision-making.

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1 minute ago, matuski said:

Your criteria for credibility in medical decisions is based on their choice to be vaccinated or not?

These days? Absolutely -- I would not trust their judgment. I do not want to be treated by any medical professional that doesn't believe in COVID, doesn't believe in vaccination (for any reason), etc.

Realistically, in most cases -- especially with emergency care -- the patient will be agnostic of a caregiver's opinion. However, if I were visiting a doctor for the first, second, third time -- where a relationship was new and developing -- and that doctor was vocal and strident about "Plandemic!" and "no long term data!" ... yes, I'd seek out another provider if I had any other option at all.

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Just now, -fish- said:

I would not accept treatment from a physician of any kind who refuses to vaccinate.   I would strongly question their credibility and decision-making.

That would be your choice.

But that is not a measure of a surgeon or nurse or tech's credibility in regard to their professions.

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17 minutes ago, matuski said:

That is not what I said.

You might want to go back and start over.

Actually that's exactly what you said. 

But then again, you and Shady have literally been on "wrong island" about this entire thing since the start of it all, so why should you attempt to build any credibility through accuracy now. Amirite? :lol: 

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4 minutes ago, matuski said:

That would be your choice.

But that is not a measure of a surgeon or nurse or tech's credibility in regard to their professions.

It may not be a measure of skill, but it is most definitely a measure of credibility 

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Just now, Doug B said:

These days? Absolutely -- I would not trust their judgment. I do not want to be treated by any medical professional that doesn't believe in COVID, doesn't believe in vaccination (for any reason), etc.

Realistically, in most cases -- especially with emergency care -- the patient will be agnostic of a caregiver's opinion. However, if I were visiting a doctor for the first, second, third time -- where a relationship was new and developing -- and that doctor was vocal and strident about "Plandemic!" and "no long term data!" ... yes, I'd seek out another provider if I had any other option at all.

Again a ridiculous example.

Of course your doctor wouldn't be strident about it... what?

Lets try a real example.  You would be seeing one of these surgeons because they are the regional experts in endo AAA procedures.  You aren't going to "seek another provider" because they aren't vaccinated.  Your credibility would be the one in question.  You are in front of them because the surgeon down the hall does 2 of these procedures a year, usually the ones the guys you walked away from turned down. 

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Just now, -fish- said:

It may not be a measure of skill, but it is most definitely a measure of credibility 

From your self defined perspective.. not from any medical expertise criteria.

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Just now, matuski said:

Again a ridiculous example.

Of course your doctor wouldn't be strident about it... what?

Lets try a real example.  You would be seeing one of these surgeons because they are the regional experts in endo AAA procedures.  You aren't going to "seek another provider" because they aren't vaccinated.  Your credibility would be the one in question.  You are in front of them because the surgeon down the hall does 2 of these procedures a year, usually the ones the guys you walked away from turned down. 

If the woman that testified in front of the Ohio Legislature was the best brain surgeon in the world and I needed brain surgery, I'd seek out the second best.   Because I'm not going to let an insane person who thinks that vaccines cause 5G transmissions that magnetize my body come anywhere near me.  I also won't see a doctor that believes in voodoo or aromatherapy, but that's just me.

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Just now, -fish- said:

If the woman that testified in front of the Ohio Legislature was the best brain surgeon in the world and I needed brain surgery, I'd seek out the second best.   Because I'm not going to let an insane person who thinks that vaccines cause 5G transmissions that magnetize my body come anywhere near me.  I also won't see a doctor that believes in voodoo or aromatherapy, but that's just me.

And of course nothing in this post would ever be a real situation.  Would never happen.  Which makes for wonderful discussion.

 

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3 minutes ago, matuski said:

From your self defined perspective.. not from any medical expertise criteria.

You can have medical expertise and still have no credibility.

Like this person.   She's actually a practicing doctor.

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I’ll gladly take the best surgeon available but it is puzzling to me how a medical professional who deals with at risk people wouldn’t see that being vaccinated is about protecting their at risk patients. 

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1 minute ago, matuski said:

And of course nothing in this post would ever be a real situation.  Would never happen.  Which makes for wonderful discussion.

 

Ben Carson though?

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Just now, matuski said:

Lets try a real example.  You would be seeing one of these surgeons because they are the regional experts in endo AAA procedures.  You aren't going to "seek another provider" because they aren't vaccinated.  Your credibility would be the one in question.  You are in front of them because the surgeon down the hall does 2 of these procedures a year, usually the ones the guys you walked away from turned down. 

I admit that for a narrow specialty, I might have to grin and bear it.

But, say, for a GP or for someone I'm seeing for (I dunno) pharmaceutical maintenance? Someone who signs off on HBP medicine or something? A dentist? Yep -- no problem switching providers.

And you're right that few providers would be uncouth enough to just volunteer their COVID opinions to all and sundry. But doctors are people, too ... and some percentage just won't be able to help themselves. Plus, it's not all that uncommon to learn someone's opinions though social channels (social media as well as old-school degrees of separation, plain ol' nosiness, etc.).

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1 minute ago, matuski said:

And of course nothing in this post would ever be a real situation.  Would never happen.  Which makes for wonderful discussion.

 

You mean because skilled, credible surgeons aren't anti-vaxxers?

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6 minutes ago, -fish- said:

You can have medical expertise and still have no credibility.

Like this person.   She's actually a practicing doctor.

Quote

Tenpenny graduated with a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Toledo in 1980 and received a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree from the Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine in Missouri in 1984.

Agreed, and her lack of credibility can be sourced to her training.  CV's are hugely relevant to credibility.

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2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I admit that for a narrow specialty, I might have to grin and bear it.

But, say, for a GP or for someone I'm seeing for (I dunno) pharmaceutical maintenance? Someone who signs off on HBP medicine or something? A dentist? Yep -- no problem switching providers.

And you're right that few providers would be uncouth enough to just volunteer their COVID opinions to all and sundry. But doctors are people, too ... and some percentage just won't be able to help themselves. Plus, it's not all that uncommon to learn someone's opinions though social channels (social media as well as old-school degrees of separation, plain ol' nosiness, etc.).

Thank you for this.

The conversation can be civil and based on real situations.

I too cringe at the above example of a nutcase doctor.  But those aren't who we are talking about... the reality is you will go in and get treatment and choose your doctors/surgeons based on reputation and credibility.  Not on their vaccine stance.  And you likely won't have a clue if they are vaccinated or not.

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14 minutes ago, [icon] said:

Actually that's exactly what you said. 

But then again, you and Shady have literally been on "wrong island" about this entire thing since the start of it all, so why should you attempt to build any credibility through accuracy now. Amirite? :lol: 

I have definitely been wrong about some things and right about others but the same can be said about the people who locked themselves in their homes for 18 months and baked their mail in the oven. Two sides to a coin :shrug:

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8 minutes ago, -fish- said:

You mean because skilled, credible surgeons aren't anti-vaxxers?

I don't know what you mean by antivaxxer... certainly I can tell you the best surgeon I know has no plans to get vaccinated.  Really has no bearing on his credibility that I can see.

The second best has been vaccinated.  Also has made no difference in his credibility that I can see.

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8 minutes ago, matuski said:

Agreed, and her lack of credibility can be sourced to her training.  CV's are hugely relevant to credibility.

Are you saying DO's aren't properly trained to practice medicine?

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