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Will you get a Covid vaccine when available?


gianmarco

Covid vaccine  

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20 hours ago, [icon] said:


Out of curiosity, are you mad because you just don't want to wear a mask, consequences to yourself and others around you be damned, or are you mad because you think masks don't work? 
 

This is really my only current complaint with the state of things. I don't think masks work, I feel 90% of usage is theater and nothing more. To me that's very counter-productive...it tickles my brain and makes me think the far-right is onto something when they proclaim masks are about control, and I don't like to find myself agreeing with things posited by the extremes, either left or right. 

I was at my son's district-wide holiday choir & band concert last weekend. 1000+ people in a field house for the performance. The masks were of course mandatory, but 98% of them were loose-fitting cloth or surgical masks. I did see a few robust fitted masks, but probably less than 10. Worse, the kids who were playing instruments literally wore masks during the performance and pulled them down when they had to put their instrument in their mouths. Once they weren't playing for 5-10 seconds they had to pull them back up only to move them down again to blow into their trombones/saxaphones/trumpets etc. Wtf? It's stupid and nothing more than performative nonsense. Not to mention, after the concert streams of kids piled into cars together and immediately removed their masks (of course). The vast majority of people I know NEVER wear them unless mandated to do so in public, and at this point that's really just in schools. This tells me they think/know they're useless but will just throw them on to not be bothered.

We've long since reached the point where people can have the vaccine if they choose. Moreover, for those who feel they are at particular risk, high-quality masks that actually offer protection are readily available and can be worn by anyone who wishes to do so. This should be the way--if you're worried about yourself, protect yourself. Extending useless mask wearing to everyone else makes zero sense to me and only reinforces fears in people in places they needn't fear anything. 

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48 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

This is really my only current complaint with the state of things. I don't think masks work, I feel 90% of usage is theater and nothing more. To me that's very counter-productive...it tickles my brain and makes me think the far-right is onto something when they proclaim masks are about control, and I don't like to find myself agreeing with things posited by the extremes, either left or right. 

I was at my son's district-wide holiday choir & band concert last weekend. 1000+ people in a field house for the performance. The masks were of course mandatory, but 98% of them were loose-fitting cloth or surgical masks. I did see a few robust fitted masks, but probably less than 10. Worse, the kids who were playing instruments literally wore masks during the performance and pulled them down when they had to put their instrument in their mouths. Once they weren't playing for 5-10 seconds they had to pull them back up only to move them down again to blow into their trombones/saxaphones/trumpets etc. Wtf? It's stupid and nothing more than performative nonsense. Not to mention, after the concert streams of kids piled into cars together and immediately removed their masks (of course). The vast majority of people I know NEVER wear them unless mandated to do so in public, and at this point that's really just in schools. This tells me they think/know they're useless but will just throw them on to not be bothered.

We've long since reached the point where people can have the vaccine if they choose. Moreover, for those who feel they are at particular risk, high-quality masks that actually offer protection are readily available and can be worn by anyone who wishes to do so. This should be the way--if you're worried about yourself, protect yourself. Extending useless mask wearing to everyone else makes zero sense to me and only reinforces fears in people in places they needn't fear anything. 

Except we now have extensive data that mask usage isn't useless. We went a year in the pandemic without vaccines and masks were part of the recipe to help limit spread.

Just because they aren't as effective as other measures, particularly the vaccine, doesn't mean they don't work and can't help during this current surge and future ones.

Just because seatbelts are far more effective than airbags in preventing serious injury doesn't mean you abandon airbags. Because the additive effects of the two give you better protection than seatbelts alone, if only slightly better. Think of masks as airbags. And yes, I hate wearing a mask as much as the next guy, but in the end, we just need to get away from the inconvenience of it and realize we are doing what's right for all of us, especially when we have surges like this.

There's this pervading mentality that if something doesn't work really, really well or doesn't work all the time then what's the point? It's not about completely eliminating spread. It's about limiting it as much as we can. Even a few percentage points matter. Those are lives potentially saved.

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46 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

This should be the way--if you're worried about yourself, protect yourself. Extending useless mask wearing to everyone else makes zero sense to me and only reinforces fears in people in places they needn't fear anything. 

 

1) Masks work when done properly.. even partially properly.  Disputing this is akin to arguing the world is flat at this point. Knock it off. 

2) "worried about yourself, protect yourself" - If you don't understand the roles masks play in slowing community spread and protecting others, I can only assume you've been living under a rock the last two years. 

3) "in places they needn't fear anything"... I'm guessing a few million Americans who are dead or suffering long-term debilitating effects might take issue with the bold.

 

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15 minutes ago, [icon] said:

 

1) Masks work when done properly.. even partially properly.  Disputing this is akin to arguing the world is flat at this point. Knock it off. 

2) "worried about yourself, protect yourself" - If you don't understand the roles masks play in slowing community spread and protecting others, I can only assume you've been living under a rock the last two years. 

3) "in places they needn't fear anything"... I'm guessing a few million Americans who are dead or suffering long-term debilitating effects might take issue with the bold.

 

Countless studies show masks are next to useless. Most people know this in their gut, which is why they only mask up when required to do so. Again, if you're worried, by all means mask up correctly. There are places I'd be more likely to mask than other places. This is not a flat-earth type argument despite how you want to frame it.

And for point number 3...that's quite a leap you made there. Are you saying there aren't safe spaces where masks aren't needed? 

People can disagree with you. You don't have to tell them to 'knock it off'. 

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23 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

There's this pervading mentality that if something doesn't work really, really well or doesn't work all the time then what's the point? It's not about completely eliminating spread. It's about limiting it as much as we can. Even a few percentage points matter. Those are lives potentially saved.


Quoted for truth. COVID will be bested by lots of small percentages adding up ... not by one big singular mallet of a solution just squashing the virus.

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24 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Except we now have extensive data that mask usage isn't useless. We went a year in the pandemic without vaccines and masks were part of the recipe to help limit spread.

Just because they aren't as effective as other measures, particularly the vaccine, doesn't mean they don't work and can't help during this current surge and future ones.

Just because seatbelts are far more effective than airbags in preventing serious injury doesn't mean you abandon airbags. Because the additive effects of the two give you better protection than seatbelts alone, if only slightly better. Think of masks as airbags. And yes, I hate wearing a mask as much as the next guy, but in the end, we just need to get away from the inconvenience of it and realize we are doing what's right for all of us, especially when we have surges like this.

There's this pervading mentality that if something doesn't work really, really well or doesn't work all the time then what's the point? It's not about completely eliminating spread. It's about limiting it as much as we can. Even a few percentage points matter. Those are lives potentially saved.

This argument can be taken to extremes. There are trade offs to everything. I mean, we could have kids wear helmets when they play on the jungle gym, but we don't do that. Why not?

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1 minute ago, Battersbox said:

Countless studies show masks are next to useless.


I'm going to be direct here: I don't believe those studies on this one. I don't believe they sufficiently mimic real-life conditions.

It was similar with "Fomites last FOREVER on surfaces!" stuff from early 2020. In a lab ... yes. In real life -- not so much.

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3 minutes ago, Doug B said:


I'm going to be direct here: I don't believe those studies on this one. I don't believe they sufficiently mimic real-life conditions.

It was similar with "Fomites last FOREVER on surfaces!" stuff from early 2020. In a lab ... yes. In real life -- not so much.

Fair enough. Masks are one aspect where it's probably fair to say the 'science isn't settled'. I believe the studies, and I feel that macro empirical evidence largely supports them, but I understand where you are coming from.

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5 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

Countless studies show masks are next to useless. Most people know this in their gut, which is why they only mask up when required to do so. Again, if you're worried, by all means mask up correctly. There are places I'd be more likely to mask than other places. This is not a flat-earth type argument despite how you want to frame it.

And for point number 3...that's quite a leap you made there. Are you saying there aren't safe spaces where masks aren't needed? 

People can disagree with you. You don't have to tell them to 'knock it off'. 

 

Not really legitimate large-scale ones... no. And there is FAR more data showing they work great.  

Define "Safe spaces"? Are there indoor places where there are other people around but the  risk of transmission is lower than, say, a packed night club? Sure! Does the insurmountable burden of wearing a mask outweight the risk at those points? Depends on the scenario. Why don't you share some of these indoor "safe spaces" where you think it's dumb to wear a mask around other people. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

Fair enough. Masks are one aspect where it's probably fair to say the 'science isn't settled'. I believe the studies, and I feel that macro empirical evidence largely supports them, but I understand where you are coming from.

 

No... the science is pretty well settled when accounting for the quality of the study. At least to anyone who's reading it objectively. If someone's made up their mind on something, however, they can convince themselves of damn near anything. 

It's comical that there are still some holdouts on this topic. 

If you want to debate the cost/benefit of mask mandates, sure. That's a topic to discuss. But debating mask efficacy is indeed borderline flat-earth madness at this point. 

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10 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

This argument can be taken to extremes. There are trade offs to everything. I mean, we could have kids wear helmets when they play on the jungle gym, but we don't do that. Why not?

if kids falling off of jungle gyms directly led to millions of other kids falling off of jungle gyms... I think we'd have a response, helmet or otherwise.

it seems like the "just take care of yourself" misses the larger picture that this involves more than ourselves.

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1 minute ago, [icon] said:

 

Not really legitimate large-scale ones... no. And there is FAR more data showing they work great.  

Define "Safe spaces"? Are there indoor places where there are other people around but the  risk of transmission is lower than, say, a packed night club? Sure! Does the insurmountable burden of wearing a mask outweight the risk at those points? Depends on the scenario. Why don't you share some of these indoor "safe spaces" where you think it's dumb to wear a mask around other people. 

 

What you typed in orange simply isn't true.

I didn't state specifically indoor spaces, I was speaking more about outdoor spaces. There are plenty of people who are still fearful enough to want masks outdoors. But indoors: large buildings with good ventilation are probably fine. I'm far from alone in that belief. Heck, just today there is a story about 2 major airline CEO's stating they believe masks are useless on planes.

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4 minutes ago, [icon] said:

 

No... the science is pretty well settled when accounting for the quality of the study. At least to anyone who's reading it objectively. If someone's made up their mind on something, however, they can convince themselves of damn near anything. 

It's comical that there are still some holdouts on this topic. 

If you want to debate the cost/benefit of mask mandates, sure. That's a topic to discuss. But debating mask efficacy is indeed borderline flat-earth madness at this point. 

Disagree. If you want to find studies that are more high-quality in support of mask efficacy versus those that find little value, I'm open to read them. I've not seen those.

And yes, cost-benefit is of course the entire point. There are trade-offs by mandating masks that are not worth it in the aggregate in many situations.

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I think mask mandates are an important tool and should be used to diminish spread when possible.

With that said, I do think that proponents of mask mandates tend to underestimate the negative consequences of masks.

In particular, I think wearing masks at school has significantly diminished the educational experience for lots of students.  It’s not a trivial concern.

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Just now, Battersbox said:

Heck, just today there is a story about 2 major airline CEO's stating they believe masks are useless on planes.


The trick with planes (and much public transportation) is having to be in close proximity to others for an extended period of time.

It's true that on a plane, cabin air is filtered well and pathogens don't tend to travel from from, say, a single sick person in the back of the plane to passengers in the front. However: What good does all that do you on a plane if the person next to you is an asymptomatic spreader?

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4 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

if kids falling off of jungle gyms directly led to millions of other kids falling off of jungle gyms... I think we'd have a response, helmet or otherwise.

it seems like the "just take care of yourself" misses the larger picture that this involves more than ourselves.

That's just it though...I don't think mask mandates prevent millions of kids from catching Covid.

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1 minute ago, Doug B said:


The trick with planes (and much public transportation) is having to be in close proximity to others for an extended period of time.

It's true that on a plane, cabin air is filtered well and pathogens don't tend to travel from from, say, a single sick person in the back of the plane to passengers in the front. However: What good does all that do you on a plane if the person next to you is an asymptomatic spreader?

I don't know. Which is why if you're worried about this, you should probably where a mask that actually protects you.

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2 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

Disagree. If you want to find studies that are more high-quality in support of mask efficacy versus those that find little value, I'm open to read them. I've not seen those.

And yes, cost-benefit is of course the entire point. There are trade-offs by mandating masks that are not worth it in the aggregate in many situations.


How about this... Youre the one challenging established science.  Fire away with 3 of your favorite studies that say masks don't work. Not news articles interpreting studies, not quotes from airline CEOs... published peer reviewed studies. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

Countless studies show masks are next to useless. Most people know this in their gut, which is why they only mask up when required to do so. Again, if you're worried, by all means mask up correctly. There are places I'd be more likely to mask than other places. This is not a flat-earth type argument despite how you want to frame it.

And for point number 3...that's quite a leap you made there. Are you saying there aren't safe spaces where masks aren't needed? 

People can disagree with you. You don't have to tell them to 'knock it off'. 

 

That simply isn't true.  That is why we are not seeing COVID outbreaks in schools where masks are required.  My kids have had COVID cases in the school and classes, and there has been no transmission because everyone is wearing masks except at lunch and recess.

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Just now, [icon] said:


How about this... Youre the one challenging established science.  Fire away with 3 of your favorite studies that say masks don't work. Not news articles interpreting studies, not quotes from airline CEOs... published peer reviewed studies. 

 

You're the one stating the science is established. Should be easy to find for you then. Go for it.

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4 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

Disagree. If you want to find studies that are more high-quality in support of mask efficacy versus those that find little value, I'm open to read them. I've not seen those.

And yes, cost-benefit is of course the entire point. There are trade-offs by mandating masks that are not worth it in the aggregate in many situations.

Here's a start. Ran across this on FB a little while back. I haven't made it through all the links yet, but there's some great info in here.  Hope you packed a lunch. :D 

Quote

MASK LITERATURE/EVIDENCE/SCIENCE

 

Jessica McIntyre, MD, FAAP

Pediatric Hospitalist, NH

 

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” – Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

Huge shout out to Parag Kumar for compiling this list! First several links have short summaries, followed by society statements, followed by a long list of 70+ papers. Yes, this is the longest FB post in all of history. #worthy

 

Masks are one layer of protection in the multiple layers public health officials use to protect us. Masks work to mitigate transmission and risk of infection. 

Meta-analysis: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

Meta-analysis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7253999/

 

Mask efficacy for COVID-19. “A conclusion can be reached based on the current studies: correctly wearing masks of all kinds, despite their different designs, functions and effectiveness, will to a large degree reduce the overall risks of COVID‐19 infection and enhance general protection from coronavirus.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

 

Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536

 

Non-pharmaceutical interventions (hand hygiene and masks) are important to controlling pandemics. 

Influenza RCTs:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19652172/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22280120/

 

Masks do not increase CO2 retention

https://uihc.org/health-topics/do-face-masks-make-you-retain-carbon-dioxide

 

Masks do not cause healthcare problems. "There is virtually no circumstance that warrants an exemption from wearing a mask based on lung disease."

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/can-face-masks-cause-health-problems/

 

AAP on masks and speech delays. "There are no known studies that use of a face mask negatively impacts a child's speech and language development. And consider this: visually impaired children develop speech and language skills at the same rate as their peers. In fact, when one sense is taken away, the others may be heightened. Young children will use other clues provided to them to understand and learn language. They will watch gestures, hear changes in tone of voice, see eyes convey emotions, and listen to words.

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/COVID-19/Pages/Do-face-masks-interfere-with-language-development.aspx

 

Mask Use and Ventilation Improvements to Reduce COVID-19 Incidence in Elementary Schools

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7021e1-H.pdf

 

COVID-19 Mitigation Practices and COVID-19 Rates in Schools: Report on Data from Florida, New York and Massachusetts (this paper shows decreased staff infections, not significant for student)

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.19.21257467v1.full.pdf

 

Minimal transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from paediatric COVID-19 cases in primary schools, Norway, August to November 2020 (minimal transmission where masks not recommended, robust contact tracing/quarantine system)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7791599/

 

Expert Medical Society Statements in favor of Masking:

Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA). https://www.idsociety.org/covid-19-real-time-learning-network/infection-prevention/masks-and-face-coverings-for-the-public/

American Medical Association (AMA). https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/6-things-doctors-wish-patients-knew-about-masks

American College of Phycisians (ACP) https://www.acponline.org/acp-newsroom/new-policy-supports-wearing-of-masks-to-reduce-transmission-of-covid-19

American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP). https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/cloth-face-coverings/  

AAP on masking during sports: https://www.aappublications.org/news/2020/12/04/sportsguidance120420

American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP). https://familydoctor.org/covid-19-face-masks/

Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC). https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/press-releases/aamc-releases-national-guidance-face-coverings

 

Scientific Papers Supporting Mask-Wearing and Mandates, listed in reverse chronological order 

 

2019. A randomised clinical trial to evaluate the safety, fit, comfort of a novel N95 mask in children. 106 age 7-14 used an N95 at rest and on a treadmill monitoring cardioresp parameters. Found to be Comfortable and safe https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31831801/ 

 

February 5, 2021. Decline in COVID-19 Hospitalization Growth Rates Associated with Statewide Mask Mandates — 10 States, March–October 2020. Statistically significant decline in hospitalization rates of 5-6% per week after a mask mandate after controlling for other measures. .  https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7006e2-H.pdf  Heesoo Joo, PhD1; Gabrielle F. Miller, PhD1; Gregory Sunshine, JD1; Maxim Gakh, JD2; Jamison Pike, PhD1; Fiona P. Havers, MD1;

 

February 2. 2021. Hydrating the Respiratory Tract: An Alternative Explanation Why Masks Lower Severity of COVID-19. Biophysical Journal, 2021. https://www.cell.com/biophysj/fulltext/S0006-3495(21)00116-8?rss=yes 

 

January 7, 2021 ”SARS-CoV-2 Transmission From People Without COVID-19 Symptoms” 59% of transmissions of sarscov2 are perpetrated by asymptomatic individuals. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2774707 

 

 November 27, 2020. MMWR Update. “Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With and Without a Mask Mandate — Kansas, June 1–August 23, 2020“. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6947e2-H.pdf

 

November 23, 2020.”Impact of Masks on Economic Activity”.  economy.= locations with a mask mandate had increase consumer movement and spending. Surveys showed a 50% increase in willingness to shop if all shoppers were masked. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/marriner-wpmedia/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Mask-Research_2pager-Nov20_Final.pdf 

 

November 10, 2020 Vanderbilt. “ Tennessee COVID-19 Death Trends Are Lower in Areas with Virus Mitigation Strategies in Place” mandate = death rates decline at a reliable point afford mask mandate initiation across several Tennessee counties. https://www.vumc.org/health-policy/sites/default/files/public_files/Vanderbilt COVID Report-Masks and Deaths_Nov10.pdf

 

  July 14, 2020, “Association Between Universal Masking in a Health Care System and SARS-CoV-2 Positivity Among Health Care Workers”. =  9850 hcw with linear decline in infection rates after implementation of universal masking of hcw and patients in the hospital. Independent practice and trend compared to the community. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533

 

"Visualizing the effectiveness of face masks in obstructing respiratory jets," Verma et al., June 30 2020, Phys Fluids = respiratory jets were shortened to 2.5 inches by a double layer stitched cotton mask, compared to 8 inches with a commercial cone mask. Uncovered respiratory jet was 8 feet https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/5.0016018

 

June 29, 2020 (non peer reviewed data analysis by Goldman Sachs). “Face Masks and GDP” (financial journal) economy & mandate a national mask mandate could improve the GDP by several percentage points based on estimations https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/pages/face-masks-and-gdp.html 

 

"Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US" Lyu et al., June 16 2020, Health Affairs = significant decline in daily COVID-19 growth rate after the mandating of face covers in public, while ‘employee only’ mask mandates were not successful. https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

 

"Association of country-wide coronavirus mortality with demographics, testing, lockdowns, and public wearing of masks" Leffler et al., June 15 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.22.20109231v3   

 

"Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19" Zhang et al., June 11 2020, PNAS: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857

 

"A modelling framework to assess the likely effectiveness of facemasks in combination with ‘lock-down’ in managing the COVID-19 pandemic" Stutt et al., June 10 2020, Proc. R. Soc. A.: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspa.2020.0376  

 

META: "Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis," June 1 2020, Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext    

 

 "Face coverings for the public: Laying straw men to rest" Greenhalgh, May 26 2020, Journal of Evaluation of Clinical Practice = expert opinion piece/ retort to common erroneous assumptions regarding mask logic / reasoning as well as a brief description of the types of evidence we have supporting mask effectiveness and safety. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jep.13415

 

"COVID-19 and the Social Distancing Paradox: dangers and solutions" Marchiori, May 26 2020, arXiv = using sensors to detect how close people would approach, a statistically significant increase in social distancing was seen when the belt wearer was masked compared to unmasked. Masking independently increases other social distancing practices. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.12446.pdf

 

"Cloth Masks May Prevent Transmission of COVID-19: An Evidence-Based, Risk-Based Approach," Clase et al., May 22 2020, An of Int Med. summary and rebuttal of recently quoted study’s, “tea towel fabric, studied with aerosol-sized particles, filtration efficiency in experiments using a bacterial marker was 83% with 1 layer and 97% with 2 layers, compared with 96% for a medical mask” Cloth can block droplets and aerosols, and layers add efficiency https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2567

 

"Quantitative Method for Comparative Assessment of Particle Filtration Efficiency of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks for PPE" Mueller et al., May 18 2020, medRxiv = mean filtration measured across many different type of cloth masks compared to n95. Shows that with increasing fabric layers and focus on fit,  filtration can approach the level of an n95 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17.20069567v4.full.pdf

 

"Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China" Wang et al., May 11 2020, BMJ Global Health= masking in the home can reduce in-home transmission by up to 79% if started before symptoms onset. https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/5/5/e002794.full.pdf"

 

"The flow physics of COVID-19" Mittal et al., May 1 2020, J. Fluid Mech.: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/476E32549012B3620D2452F30F2567F1/S0022112020003304a.pdf/flow_physics_of_covid19.pdf 

 

"Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks" Konda et al., ACS Nano, April 24 2020: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252

 

"Epidemiological characteristics of COVID-19 in medical staff members of neurosurgery departments in Hubei province: A multicentre descriptive study," Wang et al., Apr 24 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.20.20064899v1

 

"A rapid systematic review of the efficacy of face masks and respirators against coronaviruses and other respiratory transmissible viruses for the community, healthcare workers and sick patients," MacIntyre et al., Apr 21 2020, Int J Nursing Studies: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0020748920301139

 

"Universal Masking is Urgent in the COVID-19 Pandemic: SEIR and Agent Based Models, Empirical Validation, Policy Recommendations," Kai et al., Apr 21 2020, arXiv: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

 

"Assessment of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks in Terms of Particle Filtration Efficiency" Mueller et al., Apr 17 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17.20069567v2.full.pdf  

 

"Visualizing Speech-Generated Oral Fluid Droplets with Laser Light Scattering," Anfinrud et al., Apr 15 2020, N Engl J Med: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800

 

"Transmission of COVID-19 to Health Care Personnel During Exposures to a Hospitalized Patient — Solano County, California, February 2020," Heinzerling et al., Apr 14 2020, CDC MMWR: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e5.htm?s_cid=mm6915e5_w

 

META: "Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review," Howard et al., Apr 12 2020, Preprints: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v2

 

META: "Face masks for the public during the covid-19 crisis," Greenhalgh et al., April 9 2020, BMJ: https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435

 

"The Case for Universal Cloth Mask Adoption and Policies to Increase Supply of Medical Masks for Health Workers" Abaluck et al., April 6 2020, SSRN: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3567438 

 

META: Facemasks and similar barriers to prevent respiratory illness such as COVID-19: A rapid systematic review," Brainard et al., April 6 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1.full.pdf

 

META: "Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses. Part 1 - Face masks, eye protection and person distancing: systematic review and meta-analysis," Jefferson et al., Apr 7 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v2.full.pdf

 

"Widespread use of face masks in public may slow the spread of SARS CoV-2: an ecological study," Kenyon, Apr 6 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31.20048652v1

 

"Could SARS-CoV-2 be transmitted via speech droplets?," Anfinrud et al., Apr 6 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.02.20051177v1.full.pdf  

 

"Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks" Leung et al., Nat Med, April 3 2020: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

 

"Potential Utilities of Mask-Wearing and Instant Hand Hygiene for Fighting SARS-CoV-2" Ma et al., J Med Virol., March 31 2020: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.25805

 

"Calibrated Intervention and Containment of the COVID-19 Pandemic," Tian et al., Mar 16 2020, arXiv: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2003/2003.07353.pdf

 

META: "Effectiveness of N95 Respirators Versus Surgical Masks Against Influenza: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis," Long et al., Mar 13 2020, J Evid Based Med.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32167245/ 

 

"Association between 2019-nCoV transmission and N95 respirator use," Wang et al., Mar 3 2020, J Hosp Infect.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7134426/?report=classic  

 

"Risk of transmission via medical employees and importance of routine infection-prevention policy in a nosocomial outbreak of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS): a descriptive analysis from a tertiary care hospital in South Korea," Ki et al., Oct 30 2019, BMC Pulm Med.: https://bmcpulmmed.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12890-019-0940-5  

 

"N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel, A Randomized Clinical Trial," Radonovich et al., Sept 3 2019, JAMA: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214

 

"Modeling the Effectiveness of Respiratory Protective Devices in Reducing Influenza Outbreak" Yan et al., Sept 19 2018, Risk Analysis: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/risa.13181

 

"Risk Factors for Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Personnel," Alraddadi et al., Nov 2016, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/22/11/16-0920_article

 

"Surveillance of the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) coronavirus (CoV) infection in healthcare workers after contact with confirmed MERS patients: incidence and risk factors of MERS-CoV seropositivity," Kim et al., July 27 2016, Clin Microb Infect.: https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(16)30241-5/fulltext    

 

META: "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis" Smith et al. May 17 2016. CMAJ: https://www.cmaj.ca/content/cmaj/188/8/567.full.pdf

 

"Transmission Among Healthcare Worker Contacts With a Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Patient in a Single Korean Centre," Kim et al., Feb 2016, Clin Microbiol Infect.: https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(15)00837-X/fulltext

 

"Pilot Randomised Controlled Trial to Test Effectiveness of Facemasks in Preventing Influenza-like Illness Transmission Among Australian Hajj Pilgrims in 2011," Barasheed et al., 2014, Infect Disord Drug Targets: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25336079/ 

 

"Protection by Face Masks against Influenza A(H1N1)pdm09 Virus on Trans-Pacific Passenger Aircraft, 2009," Zhang et al., Sep 2013, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3810906/ 

 

"Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks: Would They Protect in an Influenza Pandemic?" Davies et al., Aug 2013, Disaster Med Public Health Prep.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108646/ 

 

"Effectiveness of surgical masks against influenza bioaerosols" Booth et al., May 2013, Journal of Hosp Inf: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0195670113000698   

 

"Influenza Virus Aerosols in Human Exhaled Breath: Particle Size, Culturability, and Effect of Surgical Masks" Milton et al. Mar 7 2013. PLoS Pathog: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591312/ 

 

"Effectiveness of Selected Surgical Masks in Arresting Vegetative Cells and Endospores When Worn by Simulated Contagious Patients," Green at al., Mar 16 2012, Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22476275/     

 

"The Role of Facemasks and Hand Hygiene in the Prevention of Influenza Transmission in Households: Results From a Cluster Randomised Trial; Berlin, Germany, 2009-2011," Suess et al., Jan 26 2012, BMC Infect Dis.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22280120/ 

 

"Facemasks, Hand Hygiene, and Influenza Among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Jan 25 2012, PLoS One: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0029744

 

"Is Abdominal Obesity Associated With the 2009 Influenza A (H1N1) Pandemic in Korean School-Aged Children?" Kim et al., Dec 8 2011, Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00318.x

 

META: "Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses" Jefferson et al., July 6 2011, Cochrane Database Syst Rev.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6993921/

 

"Impact of Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions on URIs and Influenza in Crowded, Urban Households," Larson et al., Mar 2010, Public Health Rep.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821845/ 

 

"Mask Use, Hand Hygiene, and Seasonal Influenza-Like Illness Among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Feb 15 2010, J Infect Dis.: https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/201/4/491/861190    

 

"Risk factors for SARS infection among hospital healthcare workers in Beijing: a case control study," Tang et al., Oct 7 2009, Trop Med & Int Health: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-3156.2009.02255.x

 

"Facemasks and Hand Hygiene to Prevent Influenza Transmission in Households: A Cluster Randomized Trial," Cowling et al., 6 Oct 2009, Ann Intern Med.: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/0003-4819-151-7-200910060-00142?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed 

 

"A Quantitative Assessment of the Efficacy of Surgical and N95 Masks to Filter Influenza Virus in Patients With Acute Influenza Infection," Johnson et al., July 15 2009, Clin Infect Dis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19522650/

 

"Face Mask Use and Control of Respiratory Virus Transmission in Households," MacIntyre et al., Feb 2009, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662657/

 

"The First Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial of Mask Use in Households to Prevent Respiratory Virus Transmission," MacIntyre et al. Dec 1 2008, Int J Infect Dis.: https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(08)01008-4/fulltext

 

"Risk Factors for SARS Infection Within Hospitals in Hanoi, Vietnam," Nishiyama et al., Sep 2008, Jpn J Infect Dis.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806349/

 

"Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population," v.d.Sande et al., July 9 2008, PLoS One: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ 

 

"Factors Associated With Nosocomial SARS-CoV Transmission Among Healthcare Workers in Hanoi, Vietnam, 2003," Reynolds et al., Aug 2006, BMC Public Health: https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-6-207

 

"Investigation of the Influencing Factors on Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Among Health Care Workers," Pei et al., June 18 2006, Beijing Da Xue Xue Bao Yi Xue Ban: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16778970/

 

"Simple Respiratory Mask," Dato et al., June 2006, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/?report=classic

 

"Rapid Awareness and Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome in Hanoi French Hospital, Vietnam," Jul 1 2005, Am J Trop Med and Hyg.: http://www.ajtmh.org/content/journals/10.4269/ajtmh.2005.73.17#html_fulltext

 

"Asymptomatic SARS Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Workers, Singapore," Wilder-Smith et al., July 2005, Emerg Inf Dis.: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/7/04-1165_article

 

"Factors associated with transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome among health-care workers in Singapore," Teleman et al., Nov 8 2004, Epidemiol Infect.: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/55025CCAFE6E5F3B30C31ECB6E73A3D4/S0950268804002766a.pdf/factors_associated_with_transmission_of_severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_among_healthcare_workers_in_singapore.pdf 

 

"SARS Transmission, Risk Factors, and Prevention in Hong Kong," Lau et al., Apr 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323085/

 

"Mild Illness Associated with Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection: Lessons from a Prospective Seroepidemiologic Study of Health-Care Workers in a Teaching Hospital in Singapore," Ho et al., Feb 15 2004, J Infect Dis.: https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/189/4/642/839039

 

"Risk Factors for SARS among Persons without Known Contact with SARS Patients, Beijing, China" Wu et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322931/

 

"SARS Among Critical Care Nurses, Toronto," Loeb et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322898/

 

"Effectiveness of Personal Protective Measures in Prevention of Nosocomial Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Yin et al., Jan 2004. Zhonghua Liu Xing Bing Xue Za Zhi: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15061941/

 

"Illness in Intensive Care Staff After Brief Exposure to Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Scales et al., Oct 2003, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3033076/

 

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Just now, Leeroy Jenkins said:

 

That simply isn't true.  That is why we are not seeing COVID outbreaks in schools where masks are required.  My kids have had COVID cases in the school and classes, and there has been no transmission because everyone is wearing masks except at lunch and recess.

There are plenty of outbreaks in schools with mandated masks. They are all around me. 

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3 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

You're the one stating the science is established. Should be easy to find for you then. Go for it.

 

Annnnd that's what I thought. :lol: It's absurd but here's some links to collections of dozens of studies. 

Some studies here ("face masks were 79% effective in preventing transmission", "risk reduction of 70% for those that always wore a mask when going out", "masks as a group had protective efficacy in excess of 80% against clinical influenza-like illness.")

List of 49 studies backing mask efficacy here (some higher quality than others). 

 

Now it's your turn. 3 legit published, peer reviewed studies. :popcorn: 

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1 minute ago, Battersbox said:

There are plenty of outbreaks in schools with mandated masks. They are all around me. 

The evidence has shown there to be very little spread within schools that have masking that is enforced.  People bring cases in, but not much spread in the schools themselves -- at least in elementary schools where you don't have teenagers doing dumb stuff.

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5 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Can we re-open the COVID thread in the political forum as well as the "alternative" thread here in the FFA?  The whole point of the political forum and the alternate thread was so that these two very good and very useful threads were not polluted.

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this thread. Someone asked about mask mandates and I gave my opinion. I thought my opinion was put forth in a respectful manner and wanted to share a recent experience, that's all.

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1 minute ago, Battersbox said:

I know you like to score points. So score them man. You're saying the science is settled and that if I disagree I'm a flat-earther. That's crazy talk. Show me all this irrefutable evidence.

Scroll up. provided links to collections of dozens of studies. 

You're up. 

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7 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this thread. Someone asked about mask mandates and I gave my opinion. I thought my opinion was put forth in a respectful manner and wanted to share a recent experience, that's all.

 

I appreciate that and this post.  While these threads have certainly contained debates, that hasn't been the primary purpose.  It's been more a place for information -- of course questions often lead to debate, but there is a fine line.

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24 minutes ago, [icon] said:

Scroll up. provided links to collections of dozens of studies. 

You're up. 

I will explore those. I'm sure I've seen many before but I'm willing to take another look.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868614/

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m20-6817

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40 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

Disagree. If you want to find studies that are more high-quality in support of mask efficacy versus those that find little value, I'm open to read them. I've not seen those.

And yes, cost-benefit is of course the entire point. There are trade-offs by mandating masks that are not worth it in the aggregate in many situations.

This is a huge part of the problem in these "debates" IMO. If you would have started with the part about cost/benefit analysis and said you thought it fell on the side of no masks, you likely wouldn't have faced much if any blowback. Instead you went with the hyperbolic "they're useless", implying that the benefit is zero, which just isn't true.

34 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

There are plenty of outbreaks in schools with mandated masks. They are all around me. 

Not at the same numbers in schools without the mandates. Do you really think the data shows zero difference?

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40 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Can we re-open the COVID thread in the political forum as well as the "alternative" thread here in the FFA?  The whole point of the political forum and the alternate thread was so that these two very good and very useful threads were not polluted.

BUMP. 

For the love of all things holy, can we keep this thread generally about vaccines, please?!

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8 minutes ago, humpback said:

This is a huge part of the problem in these "debates" IMO. If you would have started with the part about cost/benefit analysis and said you thought it fell on the side of no masks, you likely wouldn't have faced much if any blowback. Instead you went with the hyperbolic "they're useless", implying that the benefit is zero, which just isn't true.

Not at the same numbers in schools without the mandates. Do you really think the data shows zero difference?

You are 100% right. I was typing quickly and should have led with that. They of course aren't 100% useless, that was hyperbole on my part and I shouldn't have said that. I was definitely thinking of the cost/benefit analysis. The reason I posted is I wanted to share the absurdity of the way masks were utilized at the concert I attended. My mistake. 

To your second point, I think the differences are negligible and don't clear the bar from a cost/benefit ratio.

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I think mask mandates are an important tool and should be used to diminish spread when possible.

With that said, I do think that proponents of mask mandates tend to underestimate the negative consequences of masks.

In particular, I think wearing masks at school has significantly diminished the educational experience for lots of students.  It’s not a trivial concern.

 

Thank you. My kids are past school age now so I didn't dive deep into the mask in schools thing.

But for this, and most other things, I think we'd be way better off if this kind of reasonable discussion acknowledging different views was way more common. 

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28 minutes ago, Battersbox said:

I will explore those. I'm sure I've seen many before but I'm willing to take another look.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

Opinion piece, not peer-reviewed, published study... and seems to address primarily "only" cloth facemasks not Surgical or n95-type coverings, lacking any significant data. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868614/

Opinion piece, not a peer-reviewed, published study... doesn't challenge efficacy of masks, just challenges "proper wear" and "mental toll of perception of fear". 

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m20-6817

Finally an actual study... albeit a small self-reporting one funded by Germany's largest retail group, with a laundry list of self professed limitations including "Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others." 
 

 

Comments above... Just sayin. 
From here, I'll drop it. Just tired of misinformation setting back our response to this. 

Back to Vaccines. 

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

 

Thank you. My kids are past school age now so I didn't dive deep into the mask in schools thing.

But for this, and most other things, I think we'd be way better off if this kind of reasonable discussion acknowledging different views was way more common. 

Different views are good and welcome.

But posting inaccuracies about what has evidence behind it and what doesn't isn't a "different view". It's misinformation. And it has been challenged in this thread and the main Covid thread whenever it comes up as it should be. Because that misinformation is potentially harmful and it doesn't help promote good discussion.

As someone pointed out above, a discussion about the cost/benefit of mask usage is helpful. That's not settled. Claiming mask use is useless is not helpful. It's simply inaccurate and should be called out as it was as it's not helpful and derails a thread like this.

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8 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

 

Thank you. My kids are past school age now so I didn't dive deep into the mask in schools thing.

But for this, and most other things, I think we'd be way better off if this kind of reasonable discussion acknowledging different views was way more common. 

 

Yeah, I didn't really spend a lot of time thinking about masks in schools until this year when I started student teaching in preparation to be a teacher next year.  It makes communication about a zillion times harder.  I can't understand what half the kids are saying in class.  Students can't see teacher facial expressions.  It makes a big difference.

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2 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Different views are good and welcome.

But posting inaccuracies about what has evidence behind it and what doesn't isn't a "different view". It's misinformation. And it has been challenged in this thread and the main Covid thread whenever it comes up as it should be. Because that misinformation is potentially harmful and it doesn't help promote good discussion.

As someone pointed out above, a discussion about the cost/benefit of mask usage is helpful. That's not settled. Claiming mask use is useless is not helpful. It's simply inaccurate and should be called out as it was as it's not helpful and derails a thread like this.

Fair enough. I amended above my opening statement. Masks of course can help in certain situations in some ways. The thrust of my statement was supposed to be that I believe as a widespread mitigation factor, they aren't doing what some thing they are doing. And for that reason they fall well short of the cost/benefit ratio needed to justify them in my opinion.

And none of my links are misinformation.

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11 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Different views are good and welcome.

 

 

I wish they were more welcome. But thoughts like @fatguyinalittlecoat's where he acknowledges the "other" side might have some merit and maybe it's not completely binary and maybe there is room to discuss and reason are way too rare in my opinion. 

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Just now, Battersbox said:

Fair enough. I amended above my opening statement. Masks of course can help in certain situations in some ways. The thrust of my statement was supposed to be that I believe as a widespread mitigation factor, they aren't doing what some thing they are doing. And for that reason they fall well short of the cost/benefit ratio needed to justify them in my opinion.

And none of my links are misinformation.

Thank you for amending. It's appreciated and I get where you're coming from. And FWIW, I didn't say what you linked was misinformation. 

I still go back and forth on whether or not to mask in schools.  There still isn't a clear good answer to that question.  Masking for adults in other indoor areas where there's potential for spread? Right now, yes.  

With vaccinations, masking is going to remain a fluid thing.  It should depend on up to date case counts and local spread. 

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2 hours ago, Battersbox said:

 makes me think the far-right is onto something when they proclaim masks are about control, and I don't like to find myself agreeing with things posited by the extremes, either left or right. 

 

I just don't get the control aspect of wearing a mask.   We have to file taxes, comply with laws, wear shoes and shirts in restaurants, etc.   and no one bats an eye.

I went to DisneyWorld in September and wearing masks in buses and indoor attractions were mandatory.   99.9% of the people there wore masks and those that didn't were reminded to put their masks on.   

It makes me think that if Mickey Mouse were president instead of Trump and Biden we would have had this Covid problem under control.

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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I just don't get the control aspect of wearing a mask.   We have to file taxes, comply with laws, wear shoes and shirts in restaurants, etc.   and no one bats an eye.

I went to DisneyWorld in September and wearing masks in buses and indoor attractions were mandatory.   99.9% of the people there wore masks and those that didn't were reminded to put their masks on.   

It makes me think that if Mickey Mouse were president instead of Trump and Biden we would have had this Covid problem under control.

 

:lol:  :goodposting: 

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So I had my annual physical today. I've had the virus and 2 doses of Pfizer. My only issue is slightly high cholesterol but otherwise totally healthy and not overweight (although I could lose 10-15lbs.)

This was my first visit after moving to Boise. Doctor said there is no need to get a booster at this point for me. He wasn't going to deny it if I wanted but said I could wait, even though I'm past 6 months of my second dose. So for all the people that said I shouldn't make my own diagnosis and go by what my doctor recommends, I'm happy to oblige! :D

I did get a tetanus shot though and he's recommending a shingles vaccine. I didn't even know a tetanus shot was a normal thing to get.

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31 minutes ago, jamny said:

So I had my annual physical today. I've had the virus and 2 doses of Pfizer. My only issue is slightly high cholesterol but otherwise totally healthy and not overweight (although I could lose 10-15lbs.)

This was my first visit after moving to Boise. Doctor said there is no need to get a booster at this point for me. He wasn't going to deny it if I wanted but said I could wait, even though I'm past 6 months of my second dose. So for all the people that said I shouldn't make my own diagnosis and go by what my doctor recommends, I'm happy to oblige! :D

I did get a tetanus shot though and he's recommending a shingles vaccine. I didn't even know a tetanus shot was a normal thing to get.

 

Of the people that I've known that were infected after being fully vaccinated, all 4 were due for their boosters. 

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5 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

 

Of the people that I've known that were infected after being fully vaccinated, all 4 were due for their boosters. 

Did they all have the virus before getting the vaccine? If I didn't have the virus, he would have recommended a booster but he feels that since my body has shown the ability to fight Covid, the booster isn't necessary at this point.

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If you go to a restaurant and wear a mask from the door to your table and then take it off, it is pointless theater.  

Masks in schools or stores may be a different story, but when you're being asked to engage in something that is obviously ridiculous in one setting, it's hard to believe in the necessity in other settings.

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43 minutes ago, jamny said:

So I had my annual physical today. I've had the virus and 2 doses of Pfizer. My only issue is slightly high cholesterol but otherwise totally healthy and not overweight (although I could lose 10-15lbs.)

This was my first visit after moving to Boise. Doctor said there is no need to get a booster at this point for me. He wasn't going to deny it if I wanted but said I could wait, even though I'm past 6 months of my second dose. So for all the people that said I shouldn't make my own diagnosis and go by what my doctor recommends, I'm happy to oblige! :D

I did get a tetanus shot though and he's recommending a shingles vaccine. I didn't even know a tetanus shot was a normal thing to get.

tetanus is every 10 years.

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