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Anyone else interested in fantasy football beginning to track Pass Interference? (1 Viewer)

Binky The Doormat

Binky The Doormat

Footballguy
We have used MFL for years ...I don't see that option.  

Anyone else think giving some partial credit to receivers/QBs for yds gained via defensive pass interference?  

I don't recall seeing any twitter discussion on it and I don't think it is currently tracked anywhere (but don't see why it couldn't be if it's not)

 
Binky The Doormat said:
We have used MFL for years ...I don't see that option.  

Anyone else think giving some partial credit to receivers/QBs for yds gained via defensive pass interference?  

I don't recall seeing any twitter discussion on it and I don't think it is currently tracked anywhere (but don't see why it couldn't be if it's not)
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I like the idea, but I've never seen it offered anywhere. But I'm not a FF purist. I generally like measurements, quantification-wise, that give a real feel for the game and game skill. PI not measured is the subject of so many FF losses and wins, yet it is the result of real football skill. If it were included, I certainly wouldn't complain.

 
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I would be more for deducting yards from a player's total when they get called for a penalty.   Get called for holding, deduct 10 yards from their yardage.   While it sounds good in theory, in practice you have a couple of issues 1) penalty calls are pretty subjective, and 2) sometimes the referee may call out the wrong number when announcing the penalty.

I am totally not for giving partial credit for drawing a PI call.  Can't assume the ball would be caught 100% of the time.

 
Binky The Doormat said:
We have used MFL for years ...I don't see that option.  

Anyone else think giving some partial credit to receivers/QBs for yds gained via defensive pass interference?  

I don't recall seeing any twitter discussion on it and I don't think it is currently tracked anywhere (but don't see why it couldn't be if it's not)
Click to expand...
I get that this would make it "more NFL like", but there's a lot of rules that could be added to make it that, and I don't think it needs to be that.  Do we give points for a turnover on downs?  Why not?  Stopping a rush for a loss?

This would  open up so many floodgates.... do you do all penalties?

Also so many PI calls wouldn't have been for sure catches anyways, so we are rewarding points for balls they wouldn't have caught?

And imagine losing a fantasy match to a ref's call/non call.

Too many factors.

 
I've liked this idea. A WR who beats his man and gets tackled 20 yards downfield is accomplishing the same result as a completion. 

Generating DPI's is almost as valuable as a catch (only slightly less because there's no run after). Ideally forcing DBs to manhandle you would be rewarded.

 
rockaction said:
I like the idea, but I've never seen it offered anywhere. But I'm not a FF purist. I generally like measurements, quantification-wise, that give a real feel for the game and game skill. PI not measured is the subject of so many FF losses and wins, yet it is the result of real football skill. If it were included, I certainly wouldn't complain.
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My main league gives points for 1st downs considering they're a more important part of the game than catching the ball and falling over for a yard.  We also give added points for tackles for loss.

I like the idea of making fantasy dependent on real world value.  The hard part of that is determining when it's a single players fault vs a breakdown around them.  Can't fault a qb for a sack when a de has a free run right at him, but you can when he's Daniel Jones.

 
I'm not opposed to the idea -- it's an interesting concept, though I think it's hard to think through how to fully implement: does it count as a completed attempt for the QB? Do you subtract yards allowed on the D?

The biggest problem I see is just how finicky PI -- both DPI and OPI -- is in how it's being called, mostly at the expense of the D. Would just like the refs to figure out some clear defensible parameters around what they call, and some consistency around how they call it, before we start pegging FPs to it.

 
btemp said:
I've liked this idea. A WR who beats his man and gets tackled 20 yards downfield is accomplishing the same result as a completion. 

Generating DPI's is almost as valuable as a catch (only slightly less because there's no run after). Ideally forcing DBs to manhandle you would be rewarded.
Click to expand...


Binky The Doormat said:
We have used MFL for years ...I don't see that option.  

Anyone else think giving some partial credit to receivers/QBs for yds gained via defensive pass interference?  

I don't recall seeing any twitter discussion on it and I don't think it is currently tracked anywhere (but don't see why it couldn't be if it's not)
Click to expand...
Assuming this rule was in play, what is one idea you guys would have for valuing it?  Is a 5 yard PI penalty worth the same as a 90 yard PI penalty?  Is it a percentage of what the catch would have been?  Or just like a solid 1 point for every PI flag thrown on them?

 
You must be a Hopkins owner like me . I'd consider it if you just got points for a first down whether by yards or drawing a penalty. Could even go further and subtract points from the D for penalties.

 
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
I'm not opposed to the idea -- it's an interesting concept, though I think it's hard to think through how to fully implement: does it count as a completed attempt for the QB? Do you subtract yards allowed on the D?

The biggest problem I see is just how finicky PI -- both DPI and OPI -- is in how it's being called, mostly at the expense of the D. Would just like the refs to figure out some clear defensible parameters around what they call, and some consistency around how they call it, before we start pegging FPs to it.
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yes - QBs would get credit for a completed pass and associated ydage

 
Deamon said:
always so judgemental.


But yes I guess some do but I'd say the vast majority of leagues do not.
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Team Defense leagues that lose points for yardage against essentially "get" points for TFL.  It lessens the yards against the defense.  So it's probably more leagues than you realize.  

 
Deamon said:
Assuming this rule was in play, what is one idea you guys would have for valuing it?  Is a 5 yard PI penalty worth the same as a 90 yard PI penalty?  Is it a percentage of what the catch would have been?  Or just like a solid 1 point for every PI flag thrown on them?
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Simplest is 1 yard PI = 1 yard receiving. 

Because functionally, that's what happens. A 40 yard DPI call = a 40 yard catch. They generate exactly the same outcome.

 
Carlton Davis would be a stud in this format.  Called for it 9 times in the last year and a half.  Would have to give him 3rd-round consideration in redraft.

-QG

 
btemp said:
Simplest is 1 yard PI = 1 yard receiving. 

Because functionally, that's what happens. A 40 yard DPI call = a 40 yard catch. They generate exactly the same outcome.
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Wow that's crazy to me. So it's as advantages in fantasy to draw A flag than to catch the ball.  

 
I think its a bad idea to award points for PI because of the inconsistency of the validity of those calls. On some of these plays the intended receiver actually does something that forces the defender to commit a penalty, on others they don't. So why does the receiver get rewarded for the defense making a bad play?

That said if we are just talking about 1 point for a PI call against your player, similar to gaining a first down, its not that big of a deal. The main problem is I don't think any service tracks this, not sure how hard it would be to implement.

What I think is a worse idea would be to award the player the yardage gained by the penalty. The NFL does not award these players yardage for penalties in how they are compared to others statistically, so why should fantasy leagues do it? Then you have the inconsistencies of some players getting more benefit from PI than others because they are running deeper routes. By this logic, then maybe receivers should be awarded points for their air yards as well.

Just like any other scoring category you can look to take advantage of it through research. I don't think stats for this are readily digestible right now.

My guess is Randy Moss would have been even more valuable with this kind of scoring but he would get screwed relative to the competition because he would usually come down with the ball anyways while most other WR do not.

 
QuizGuy66 said:
Carlton Davis would be a stud in this format.  Called for it 9 times in the last year and a half.  Would have to give him 3rd-round consideration in redraft.

-QG
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I was so confused as well haha. I'm assuming you're making a joke about the thread title that defenders who get called for PI would be the ones getting the points?  Haha

 
WR/TE Stat Analysis: Catch Rate and Drawn Pass Interference

Based on this the impact of giving points for DPI looks to be very small if you were just awarding 1 point for the occurance.

If you apply the yardage of the PI there is more variance.

I was somewhat surprised to see Christian Kirk was one of the 8 players found in the sample. That seems kind of random but maybe its not. Most of the guys who were in the sample are guys you would guess would draw PI more, like Mike Evans, Allen Robinson, Adams, Sutton, Mike Williams. The bigger my ball receivers. 

 
Another thing I don't like about this idea is that receivers are already getting the benefit of PPR in many leagues. This is another scoring category that does not apply itself equally to all positions and although the impact is small, it would just further push the value of RB down relative to the receivers.

 
Manster said:
I prefer milestone yardage and more TD heavy scoring......I can watch games and kind of know where my guys are at easily.....I just don't like lots and lots of things being scored.....of course I hate ppr, so take that fwiw
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Cool. I figured it was something like this.

I like complicated scoring because it rewards research and grit but I can relate to not wanting to need spread sheets while watching games to have an idea of how things are going.

 
Biabreakable said:
Cool. I figured it was something like this.

I like complicated scoring because it rewards research and grit but I can relate to not wanting to need spread sheets while watching games to have an idea of how things are going.
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Yep, I'm a big picture guy......not so much detail.....I find crunching numbers pretty mind numbing......and imo, gut instinct on what you see can be just as important as stat research....and at the end of the day I don't want to have to think too hard while I'm watching sports!  I have a busy life outside of that and I'm not looking for that with my free time, if that makes sense

 
I do tend to think penalties would be somewhat capricious in terms of an item to base drafting/playing decisions on but if your league is hard core enough why not? :)

As for myself I'll keep penalties as a fantasy hockey only thing.

-QG

 
Biabreakable said:
Another thing I don't like about this idea is that receivers are already getting the benefit of PPR in many leagues. This is another scoring category that does not apply itself equally to all positions and although the impact is small, it would just further push the value of RB down relative to the receivers.
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Maybe it was just this year, but the value of RB's in the drafts was insane this year after such a huge drop off.  People caught on quick how much it dried up after their first couple drafts and RB runs were going fast and early even in PPR leagues. I thought the trend was going more towards WR in PPR but this year proved otherwise. If anything, we need to devalue RB's in fantasy so the first round isn't all RB's. 

 
It is a frustrating facet of the game, sometimes.  I mean - you own an elite receiver who beats a DB in the endzone... ball is thrown and the defender tackles the receiver before the ball gets there.  Spot foul - RB plunges for a TD.  All that said, I don't think I would make the change for my league to count PI's.  When do you stop counting flags then?

 
btemp said:
Simplest is 1 yard PI = 1 yard receiving. 

Because functionally, that's what happens. A 40 yard DPI call = a 40 yard catch. They generate exactly the same outcome.
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So DPI in the endzone and you give the guy the TD?  haha.

IF a league implemented this, I think a set "1 point per flag drawn" would be good.  Still gives them something but doesn't go overboard.

 
Biabreakable said:
Another thing I don't like about this idea is that receivers are already getting the benefit of PPR in many leagues. This is another scoring category that does not apply itself equally to all positions and although the impact is small, it would just further push the value of RB down relative to the receivers.
Click to expand...
I think pass catching RB's benefit from PPR more than receivers do?

It is a frustrating facet of the game, sometimes.  I mean - you own an elite receiver who beats a DB in the endzone... ball is thrown and the defender tackles the receiver before the ball gets there.  Spot foul - RB plunges for a TD.  All that said, I don't think I would make the change for my league to count PI's.  When do you stop counting flags then?

 
Deamon said:
Maybe it was just this year, but the value of RB's in the drafts was insane this year after such a huge drop off.  People caught on quick how much it dried up after their first couple drafts and RB runs were going fast and early even in PPR leagues. I thought the trend was going more towards WR in PPR but this year proved otherwise. If anything, we need to devalue RB's in fantasy so the first round isn't all RB's. 
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This is the argument for PPR.

Obviously the scoring isn't what is driving this as much as the scarcity. So to balance this what is needed is for leagues to require teams to start more WR rather than giving the WR extra points for things.

 
Biabreakable said:
This is the argument for PPR.

Obviously the scoring isn't what is driving this as much as the scarcity. So to balance this what is needed is for leagues to require teams to start more WR rather than giving the WR extra points for things.
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Possibly.  More WR points also means more division between WR1 and WR2 though.  Like in 6 point pass td leagues, this drives QB value up.  If catches were worth 5 ponits each, round 1 would be all WR's.

 
TVT 0 N S T A said:
I think pass catching RB's benefit from PPR more than receivers do?
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If you are talking about RB scoring more points because of PPR than standard of course that is true.

Do they benefit more relative to other positions because of that? I don't really think that they do.

 
Biabreakable said:
If you are talking about RB scoring more points because of PPR than standard of course that is true.

Do they benefit more relative to other positions because of that? I don't really think that they do.
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I think they do for sure.  There's a lot less of boosting a WR in PPR because he catches a lot of passes vs getting a lot of yards.  Yes WR ranks change from PPR to Standard, but it is VERY minimal.  With RB's, its a MAJOR factor in boosting certain RB's due to PPR.

 
Deamon said:
I think they do for sure.  There's a lot less of boosting a WR in PPR because he catches a lot of passes vs getting a lot of yards.  Yes WR ranks change from PPR to Standard, but it is VERY minimal.  With RB's, its a MAJOR factor in boosting certain RB's due to PPR.
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Oh absolutely it does for the guys like Riddick and James White whos points are coming almost exclusively from receptions.

I was thinking more about the entire pool of RB compared to the entire pool of WR, but he did say pass catching RB specifically and I kind of missed that when reading his post and responding.

in any case RB less likely to draw PI than WR so this rule would moderately help that position more than RB I think.

 
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Binky The Doormat said:
We have used MFL for years ...I don't see that option.  

Anyone else think giving some partial credit to receivers/QBs for yds gained via defensive pass interference?  

I don't recall seeing any twitter discussion on it and I don't think it is currently tracked anywhere (but don't see why it couldn't be if it's not)
Click to expand...
The vast majority of people enjoy games in some form or another. Yet very few people are good game designers and this suggestion is an illustration of that. 
 

This change would make fantasy football less fun for most players because it’s an unnecessary rules exception and rules exceptions, almost by definition, make games less fun. The goal in any game is to keep the rules as simple and consistent as possible. This is especially important in gambling games and despite what the NFL says, FF is a gambling game. 
 

I don’t want to be too harsh on the OP as I’ve seen far more terrible ideas over the years. I once saw someone on a poker forum suggest that if you go all in with a really powerful hand like Aces in Texas Hold’em and get called you should automatically win without any flop, turn, or river being dealt. A great many people agreed with this idea, so many in fact that they created a website offering this kind of poker. It failed immediately. Like I said, most people are better at playing games than designing them :)

 
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Deamon said:
So DPI in the endzone and you give the guy the TD?  haha.

IF a league implemented this, I think a set "1 point per flag drawn" would be good.  Still gives them something but doesn't go overboard.
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No... you wouldn't give a TD because a TD isn't awarded... You'd give whatever that yardage was. If it was a DPI on the 1 yard line, you'd give 1 receiving yard. 

 
btemp said:
No... you wouldn't give a TD because a TD isn't awarded... You'd give whatever that yardage was. If it was a DPI on the 1 yard line, you'd give 1 receiving yard. 
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Damn, that would change fantasy completely if you're giving 5-10 points to a guy in some situations who got interfered with but never would have caught the ball.  I could never play in a league that gave full yardage points without making the catch.

 
Deamon said:
Damn, that would change fantasy completely if you're giving 5-10 points to a guy in some situations who got interfered with but never would have caught the ball.  I could never play in a league that gave full yardage points without making the catch.
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But functionally you're doing the same thing. Getting a 10 yard DPI call = a 10 yard catch. In football terms, it's exactly the same thing. 

The much, much weirder thing is awarding points for simply making a catch. A reception is absolutely valueless in the NFL only yards (and TDs) matter. Simply catching a ball is not a positive play, it's catching a ball for positive yardage. A reception for -4 yards is a negative play, a catch for 0 yards is a worthless play as well. The value in a catch is in the yardage (or points) it generates on the field.

How is awarding points for DPI change fantasy when PPR is even further removed from football?

 
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