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Week 12 stat changes? (1 Viewer)

M

mike11162

Footballguy
Kind of crazy turn of events in one of my leagues yesterday. One of my league members lost a game by .02 points when Ben Roethlisberger took a knee at the end of the game. In our league you get 0.1 points for a rush attempt and -0.1 for a lost rush yard. However, we don't have negative points for less than zero rush yards. Normally when a player takes a knee it's a net zero play, but because Ben had no rush yards he gained the 0.1 points instead. So the apparent loss basically knocked two teams out of the playoff chase. Fast forward to this morning and a stat change was applied to James Robinson who was credited with a fumble, and the winning team in that game had him and lost 1 point, flipping the game the other way. The league is on MFL and MFL doesn't apply stat changes until 10 AM ET Thursday mornings usually. Apparently it was listed yesterday but not applied until today.

My question is does anyone know if there were any stat changes in yesterday's Steelers-Ravens game? The losing team has 3 Steelers in his lineup, Ben, Claypool and the defense, so it's remotely possible it could flip the outcome the other way (although unlikely). And if there were any scoring changes, when would they get applied (though that's a question for MFL support really)?

 
We only give negatives for a lost fumble.  Robinson recovered his own fumble.  Do you get credit for fumble recoveries?

 
Gally said:
We only give negatives for a lost fumble.  Robinson recovered his own fumble.  Do you get credit for fumble recoveries?
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It's possible that his league set up the scoring system to deduct points for "Fumbles", without realizing that MFL has a separate stat for "Fumbles Lost To Opponent."

 
Sea Duck said:
It's possible that his league set up the scoring system to deduct points for "Fumbles", without realizing that MFL has a separate stat for "Fumbles Lost To Opponent."
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Or they just want to penalize fumbles whether the other team recovered them or not. That makes more sense anyway.

 
jtd13 said:
Or they just want to penalize fumbles whether the other team recovered them or not. That makes more sense anyway.
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Why does it make more sense?  If you don't lose the fumble there is no harm done.  Fumbles lost are really the issue and devastating play.  

 
jtd13 said:
Sea Duck said:
It's possible that his league set up the scoring system to deduct points for "Fumbles", without realizing that MFL has a separate stat for "Fumbles Lost To Opponent."
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Or they just want to penalize fumbles whether the other team recovered them or not. That makes more sense anyway.
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Man, what kind of league deducts points for fumbles but then doesn't credit points for recovering your own fumble? That's like deducting points for negative yardage but then not giving points for positive yardage on the same play.

 
Gally said:
jtd13 said:
Or they just want to penalize fumbles whether the other team recovered them or not. That makes more sense anyway.
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Why does it make more sense?  If you don't lose the fumble there is no harm done.  Fumbles lost are really the issue and devastating play.  
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I can almost buy in to the idea of deducting for fumbles, but if you're going to do that, then you have to give credit for the recovery as well.

 
Sea Duck said:
I can almost buy in to the idea of deducting for fumbles, but if you're going to do that, then you have to give credit for the recovery as well.
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We deduct for fumbles lost and you get points for fumbles recovered (has to be your opponents fumble).  The points are the same for each (minus for lost and plus for recovered)

 
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Gally said:
Why does it make more sense?  If you don't lose the fumble there is no harm done.  Fumbles lost are really the issue and devastating play.  
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The rb coughing up the ball is the RBs fault. Why base his penalty on whether the defense takes advantage or not?

 
jtd13 said:
The rb coughing up the ball is the RBs fault. Why base his penalty on whether the defense takes advantage or not?
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Because that is what matters in the grand scheme of things.  A fumble you don't lose is no harm.  

 
I don't really care either way, but that's splitting hairs. There's plenty of things penalized whether they actually cause harm or not in the game. The rb didn't do his job of hanging onto the football. I don't think it's nonsensical to penalize that if you want to in your league. 

 
jtd13 said:
I don't really care either way, but that's splitting hairs. There's plenty of things penalized whether they actually cause harm or not in the game. The rb didn't do his job of hanging onto the football. I don't think it's nonsensical to penalize that if you want to in your league. 
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I could somewhat agree if you got points for fumble recoveries.  So in the play in question it should be a net zero.  Robinson fumbled but recovered his own fumble.  It should be a wash.  My guess is it was one of those things where the ball was knocked out as he was going to the ground and he just fell on the ball.  Not really a true fumble as nobody really had a chance to recover the ball.  Should that be penalized?  I would say it should not.  But to each there own.  

 
If you really want to complain about a plays "actual football value vs. fantasy penalty", look at the QB kneeling. Taking a knee at the end of a game is good thing for your team! But that gets punished in the form of lost rushing yards. Now that's a REAL injustice  :lol:

 
This turned into an attack on how I score fumbles. It’s irrelevant to what I asked, if there were any scoring changes in the Pitt game.

But if I must defend it, here’s how and why I do it. A lost fumble nets in a loss of 2 points, 1 for your player fumbling and an additional 1 point for losing it (same as the net loss of points on an INT). Why do I penalize for the fumble without losing it? Because many times it results in a loss of yardage on the play. Like when a QB fumbles the snap and has to fall on it taking a sack. Or a RB fumbling the handoff and falling on it for a loss. Not every fumble results in a loss of yards, but the scoring doesn’t different between those situations. And why not credit for a fumble recovery? Same reason, the player fumbles and falls on the ball; why reward him for losing yards and poor ball security. 
 

As for kneeling, as I stated I give the 0.1 for the rush attempt to offset the -0.1 lost for the lost yard. So it’s a net zero play in most cases. Except for not awarding negative points for negative total yards.

I did send a ticket into MFL and they say they did all final stat changes. I assume they included the Pitt game because I explicitly asked about it.

 
mike11162 said:
This turned into an attack on how I score fumbles. It’s irrelevant to what I asked, if there were any scoring changes in the Pitt game.

But if I must defend it, here’s how and why I do it. A lost fumble nets in a loss of 2 points, 1 for your player fumbling and an additional 1 point for losing it (same as the net loss of points on an INT). Why do I penalize for the fumble without losing it? Because many times it results in a loss of yardage on the play. Like when a QB fumbles the snap and has to fall on it taking a sack. Or a RB fumbling the handoff and falling on it for a loss. Not every fumble results in a loss of yards, but the scoring doesn’t different between those situations. And why not credit for a fumble recovery? Same reason, the player fumbles and falls on the ball; why reward him for losing yards and poor ball security. 
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Okay, but those categories are already covered under "Tackled For Loss" and "Sacked." Why double-dip there?

What do you do when an offensive teammate recovers a fumble? Does he not get credit for that play?

 
Sea Duck said:
Okay, but those categories are already covered under "Tackled For Loss" and "Sacked." Why double-dip there?

What do you do when an offensive teammate recovers a fumble? Does he not get credit for that play?
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Don't use tackled for loss or offensive fumble recovery. Credit a player for falling on a ball 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage that his team mate coughed up? That seems ludicrous. Look he fell on it so the team didn't lose possession. Let's give him a point!

You don't have to like my defensive scoring. Again it's just hijacking the thread to bash it. I just gave the backdrop of how my league worked to show why I was looking if there were any additional scoring changes. Fumbles usually aren't a good thing. Sometimes they are benign but more often they end up in lost yardage and a lost down. To each their own.

 
mike11162 said:
Don't use tackled for loss or offensive fumble recovery. Credit a player for falling on a ball 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage that his team mate coughed up? That seems ludicrous. Look he fell on it so the team didn't lose possession. Let's give him a point!

You don't have to like my defensive scoring. Again it's just hijacking the thread to bash it. I just gave the backdrop of how my league worked to show why I was looking if there were any additional scoring changes. Fumbles usually aren't a good thing. Sometimes they are benign but more often they end up in lost yardage and a lost down. To each their own.
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So they are already penalized for the loss of yardage.

It really doesn't matter and I am not bashing.  I am just discussing an interesting scoring decision to see if there are improvements to be made.  To each there own and seeing how other's came up with their system and the reasoning behind it is interesting and sometimes find things that are improvements.   In this case I am not on the same page as I don't see a reason to double dip the penalty but if you guys like it all good.  

 
Normally when a player takes a knee it's a net zero play, but because Ben had no rush yards he gained the 0.1 points instead. So the apparent loss basically knocked two teams out of the playoff chase.
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I’m confused by this. First, the premise is inaccurate: taking a knee is not a net zero play, it is a negative play. QBs always lose 1 yard taking a knee. The ball is snapped backwards and QB takes a knee to down it. End of play, results in -1 RuYd.

I lost a game many, many years ago where I was up by .2 and my QB knelt 3x causing me to lose by .1 - a painful lesson. 

If he had 0 RuYd he should have finished with negative rushing yards. Now, some leagues don’t have negative scoring for yardage in that scenario but I can’t see any format where he’d possibly gain yardage. The play on the field is literally a loss of 1 yard. 

At best he should have received 0 for rushing yardage, and in my leagues he would have lost .1 with each kneel-down regardless of his prior total. 

something’s not right there. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
I’m confused by this. First, the premise is inaccurate: taking a knee is not a net zero play, it is a negative play. QBs always lose 1 yard taking a knee. The ball is snapped backwards and QB takes a knee to down it. End of play, results in -1 RuYd.

I lost a game many, many years ago where I was up by .2 and my QB knelt 3x causing me to lose by .1 - a painful lesson. 

If he had 0 RuYd he should have finished with negative rushing yards. Now, some leagues don’t have negative scoring for yardage in that scenario but I can’t see any format where he’d possibly gain yardage. The play on the field is literally a loss of 1 yard. 

At best he should have received 0 for rushing yardage, and in my leagues he would have lost .1 with each kneel-down regardless of his prior total. 

something’s not right there. 
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If you read again, guy says his league awards .1 for every rush attempt, so a rush of negative 1 yard equals zero

 
TheWinz said:
If you read again, guy says his league awards .1 for every rush attempt, so a rush of negative 1 yard equals zero
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oh, OK… Somehow I missed that. Strange scoring, but OK

sounds sounds like a case of “it is what it is“

:)  
 

ETA: also I never considered a quarterback taking a knee a rushing attempt. I guess it is? Wouldn’t it be closer to a sack instead? 

 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
oh, OK… Somehow I missed that. Strange scoring, but OK

sounds sounds like a case of “it is what it is“

:)  
 

ETA: also I never considered a quarterback taking a knee a rushing attempt. I guess it is? Wouldn’t it be closer to a sack instead? 
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QB taking a knee is minus rushing yds for as long as I can remember

eta: and I’m old 

 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
oh, OK… Somehow I missed that. Strange scoring, but OK

sounds sounds like a case of “it is what it is“

:)  
 

ETA: also I never considered a quarterback taking a knee a rushing attempt. I guess it is? Wouldn’t it be closer to a sack instead? 
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Its not a sack because it is not a pass play.  Sacks are only ruled if the primary scheme of the play is a pass.

 
Gally said:
So they are already penalized for the loss of yardage.

It really doesn't matter and I am not bashing.  I am just discussing an interesting scoring decision to see if there are improvements to be made.  To each there own and seeing how other's came up with their system and the reasoning behind it is interesting and sometimes find things that are improvements.   In this case I am not on the same page as I don't see a reason to double dip the penalty but if you guys like it all good.  
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Part of the reason we do it this way is a few years ago I got complaints about defenses ending up with negative scores, and if you had a bad matchup and didn't feel there was a better defense in waivers, you would have the incentive to not start a defense. A good chunk of the defense points in my league is based on net yardage and points allowed (especially offensive points allowed). I adjusted the scale for each up slightly, added a few more things that aren't used often but available in the scoring setup on MFL, and it took care of the problem. You still get negative scores from time to time, but your D has to play pretty bad to get it now. 

As a frame of reference, the top fantasy defense in my scoring is Pitt, ranked 25th overall. Players right around them in scoring are James Robinson, DK Metcalf, Keenan Allen and Travis Kelce. Some leagues like defense scoring to be high, some don't. I think we're kind of in the middle, maybe slightly on the higher side. The next highest scoring defenses (virtually tied) are the Saints and Rams at 48th and 49th overall, with five total defenses in the top 64 overall. You do get some high point games from time to time, in the 30s (or even 40s twice this year), but the majority of defense scores end up in the 10-20 point range. Any way, that's how and why I set the scoring the way I do.

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
I’m confused by this. First, the premise is inaccurate: taking a knee is not a net zero play, it is a negative play. QBs always lose 1 yard taking a knee. The ball is snapped backwards and QB takes a knee to down it. End of play, results in -1 RuYd.

I lost a game many, many years ago where I was up by .2 and my QB knelt 3x causing me to lose by .1 - a painful lesson. 

If he had 0 RuYd he should have finished with negative rushing yards. Now, some leagues don’t have negative scoring for yardage in that scenario but I can’t see any format where he’d possibly gain yardage. The play on the field is literally a loss of 1 yard. 

At best he should have received 0 for rushing yardage, and in my leagues he would have lost .1 with each kneel-down regardless of his prior total. 

something’s not right there. 
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Others answered this already. I just wanted to add I don't specifically have the rule for taking a knee, we just award 0.1 points for any rushing attempt. It just happens when you have someone taking a knee, the scoring just balances out to a net zero on the play (unless the QB taking a knee ends up with negative rushing yards, then he gains the 0.1 because we don't have negative points for less than zero rush yards).

Also it's not a negative play. Taking a knee is a good thing usually for the team because it means they just won the game (except for taking a knee at the end of the first half). Also there's no intent to gain yardage on the play, by design, so it doesn't make sense to penalize a team for it. Taking a knee has its use and is either a positive or neutral play depending on the circumstance. It really should be fantasy irrelevant as much as possible, and in my scoring it pretty much is.

 
Also it's not a negative play. Taking a knee is a good thing usually for the team because it means they just won the game (except for taking a knee at the end of the first half). Also there's no intent to gain yardage on the play, by design, so it doesn't make sense to penalize a team for it. Taking a knee has its use and is either a positive or neutral play depending on the circumstance. It really should be fantasy irrelevant as much as possible, and in my scoring it pretty much is.
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I understand it’s a positive play in terms of optimism, mood, happy feelings.

it is however literally a negative yardage play. I didn’t mean the play had a frown emoji associated with it. The QB is giving up a yard. It is a negative play in a positive situation. lol

 
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