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Why is the USA dominating the vaccine race? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TripItUp
- Start date
TripItUp
Footballguy
List of Leading Vaccine Companies
You'll notice a disproportionate number are American. Why do you suppose that is?
the rover
Footballguy
The subtitle of that article literally says,
"Canada leads the pack in terms of doses secured per capita."
TripItUp
Footballguy
they are buying it, not actually producing it. This thread is about which countries are actually solving the global crisis. There is one that stands out, and it is the least socialist of the lot.
Weird.
the rover
Footballguy
Let's see.
China distributed the first vaccine.
AstraZeneca is a global company, with a vaccine developed at Oxford.
Moderna's partner is Lonza, based in Switzerland
Pfizer's partner is BioNTech, based in Germany and Denmark. BioNTech is leading the UK's rollout of its vaccine, which has already begun in the UK. They begin vaccinations on Tuesday.
Which vaccine manufacturer are you talking about?
China distributed the first vaccine.
AstraZeneca is a global company, with a vaccine developed at Oxford.
Moderna's partner is Lonza, based in Switzerland
Pfizer's partner is BioNTech, based in Germany and Denmark. BioNTech is leading the UK's rollout of its vaccine, which has already begun in the UK. They begin vaccinations on Tuesday.
Which vaccine manufacturer are you talking about?
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Because many of the top drug producers headquarter in the US likely because that’s where they make most of their profits. Much of the work and production is done in other countries.
the rover
Footballguy
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supermike80
Footballguy
If there is a consistent message I pick up from this board, it is not supportive of America in general. So this will be a tough sell.
I mean look at the replies....Doing anything possible to point it AWAY from America. It really is something.
I mean look at the replies....Doing anything possible to point it AWAY from America. It really is something.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
China and Russia both claim to be further ahead. You can disbelieve them, obviously. Of course, you can't know for sure whether they are or aren't telling the truth, meaning the claim "The US is dominating" is unverifiable, even if we limit the scope to US, China, and Russia, and ignore all other factors.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
It has nothing to do with being supportive of America or not, it has to do with facts. If someone says "the US is the best at making cars" or "the Raiders are the best team in the AFC West", should we accept that at face value, or should we investigate to see whether the US really is the best at making cars or whether the Raiders really are the best in the AFC West?
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supermike80
Footballguy
Right. Yes..Sure. Make it a point to say it. I knew that would be the next argument.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I'm confused by this. Are you arguing that we should just accept all statements at face value? If not, how should we generally proceed when someone raises a question like "Why is X the best?"?
supermike80
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Let me put it a different way. China claims to be already distributing the vaccine. My question: Why is China dominating the vaccine race? Your response to that is...
Rich Conway
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Most of the world, including America, has been hard at work coming up with vaccines for this terrible virus. Do we really have to have argue who is "dominating the vaccine race", whatever that means?
This is part of the problem with the divisiveness in this forum (and the country). We seem to be just looking for reasons to fight each other. It reminds me of old married couples that are sick of each other, what they argue about really doesn't matter, they just want to be nasty towards each other.
This is part of the problem with the divisiveness in this forum (and the country). We seem to be just looking for reasons to fight each other. It reminds me of old married couples that are sick of each other, what they argue about really doesn't matter, they just want to be nasty towards each other.
sho nuff
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
I am supportive when its true and deserved.
The replies are because we were asked why America is dominating when the facts seem to indicate we are not.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I don’t think the thread was started with honest intentions either. I think everyone knows what the US does well at and what we don’t do well at.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t know whether or not America is dominating the vaccine race. We should dominate it; we’ve always been the #1 nation for medical advancement, scientific innovation, technology, etc. it’s a big part of the reason, IMO, that the USA is the greatest country in the history of civilization, bar none.
But it’s important to know the reasons why we have been #1 at these things. There are many reasons but the main one is that we are a nation of immigrants. We welcome people from all over the world and give them opportunity of freedom and prosperity that they may have lacked wherever they came from. That’s how we have gotten so many brilliant people in so many different fields. And that’s why it’s so distressing that the current Republican Party, under Donald Trump, is so anti-immigrant. Trump and his supporters are threatening the very thing that makes us the greatest country.
But it’s important to know the reasons why we have been #1 at these things. There are many reasons but the main one is that we are a nation of immigrants. We welcome people from all over the world and give them opportunity of freedom and prosperity that they may have lacked wherever they came from. That’s how we have gotten so many brilliant people in so many different fields. And that’s why it’s so distressing that the current Republican Party, under Donald Trump, is so anti-immigrant. Trump and his supporters are threatening the very thing that makes us the greatest country.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
Reflexively open mouth kissing the concept of American exceptionalism doesn't really do us any favors in the long run.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The US has been a leader in the pharmaceutical industry for quite some time now. It's not surprising that the various covid vaccines would originate at least in part from US manufacturers.
On the other hand, it's worth noting that the UK has already approved and is now distributing a vaccine while we sit around dithering. Our own FDA is literally killing people because it's designed to move slowly and make decisions in the most risk-averse manner possible.
On the other hand, it's worth noting that the UK has already approved and is now distributing a vaccine while we sit around dithering. Our own FDA is literally killing people because it's designed to move slowly and make decisions in the most risk-averse manner possible.
The CEO of Pfizer came to the USA in his 30s, an immigrant from a Jewish community in Greece (same region as Lea Michelle's family). BioNTech was founded in Germany by a Muslim immigrant from Turkey. Pfizer didn't discover their vaccine, but they partnered with BioNTech, provided early testing, logistics for the clinical trials and manufacturing and distribution. I think big pharma, like Pfizer, has the resources and international reach and reputation to do such a trial quickly. So do the Chinese, but there's much less faith in their vaccine, even though Pfizer has themselves done shady promotion of drugs. I'll trust our FDA and their clinical trial standards.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Well, we also "convinced" a lot of German engineers and scientists to relocate to the US post WWII to further the US rocketry program, which had a ton of knock-on effects. Also, the US worked hard on bringing elite Eastern European technical folks to the US during the Cold War. We've imported talent by showing them that the US is a great place to live and work. I don't think that carrot is working as well any more.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Right of Center Poster: The US is dominating vaccine development.
Also Right of Center Poster: The US needs to crack down on immigration.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
- The delta in quality of life between Eastern Europe and USA is not as large as it was during the Cold War. Economically, liberty, etc.
- The delta in pay is rapidly shrinking between Asia and the USA. Chinese technology experts are making good money and are well respected. Lots of government and private support for Chinese start-ups / spin-offs. I know quite a few Chinese nationals that were educated and may have worked in the US, but then returned to China to start a company or head up a development team there. They didn't get those opportunities in the US.
- The USA has some strong anti-immigrant rhetoric in the last 15 years. We are not as welcoming as we once were, regardless of abilities.
Thanks. How much in your opinion do you think it's the other countries getting better and how much of it the US getting worse?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I'd argue it's as simple as other countries catching up after the devastation of WW2. Much of Europe (and Japan) was absolutely destroyed in WW2, and the US wasn't. While Europe rebuilt, America thrived. That wasn't permanent.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Point #1 and Point #2 is all about other countries getting better and their countries doing a lot to welcome back their native people to work at home instead of in the USA. Point #3 is all on the USA. I'd say the majority (say 80% is other countries getting better), and as @Rich Conway says, was a result of the devastation following WWII and the clamp down of the iron curtain + Maoist China. With China embracing capitalism and competition on the global stage (not just for mfg, but the whole design process), that plays a big role too.
It's really a brief description of the ending of the American hegemony of world economy. This is the Asian century now.
If we had wanted the US to dominate economically, we should have pushed to keep autocratic, kleptocratic, repressive regimes in power so that we could take their top talent and they remained impoverished. Instead we chose to spread the prosperity gospel. And I'm happy we did so.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
It's probably worth noting this discussion that it took pharmaceutical companies approximately a weekend to create the vaccines that are now finally rolling out. The rest is all regulatory delay, some of which is justified but which came at the cost of over 200K American lives.
Edit: Actually, the article points out that by the time the vaccines are actually widely administered, the total death toll from regulatory delay will probably be closer to half a million Americans. Hope it was worth it.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/12/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-design.html
Edit: Actually, the article points out that by the time the vaccines are actually widely administered, the total death toll from regulatory delay will probably be closer to half a million Americans. Hope it was worth it.
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I was aware that most of the time was due to performing the trials and ramping up production. I was unaware of the fact that they were developed so quickly. I am not sure how quickly they could ramp up production if there were no trials, my understanding is the ramp up time is significant as well.
Are you saying that they should have just started mass administering the vaccine as soon as it was available in significant quantities? Obviously there is a trade off between safety of the vaccine and saving people's lives.
What would happen if the vaccine created mass illnesses and/or deaths. I think that would cause an increase in anti-vax sentiment that might cost more lives in the long run. Not an easy decision either way but I think they probably got it mostly right here.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I see this as being the key point. Was it really worth killing half a million people when researchers knew very early on that they had a safe vaccine of debatable efficacy? And that doesn't even get into all the economic harm that this virus has caused. That seems like an incredibly unfavorable tradeoff to me, especially when we're talking about vaccines administered to consenting adults.
The article gets into how we could potentially speed this process up a lot if/when the next pandemic rolls around. Evaluating a vaccine for safety is a completely different proposition than testing a vaccine for efficacy. The cost-benefit tradeoff of rolling out a potentially unsafe vaccine is totally different than that of rolling out a safe but potentially ineffective vaccine. Most of the people who died of covid will have died while we were testing for the latter, not the former.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Also would people have been willing to get it knowing it wasn’t fully vetted? We might have had an even bigger problem then we will with getting people to take it.
rockaction
Footballguy
You're spot on, but don't bother here.
Also don't bother that most of the world free rides on our research and development when it comes to new medications, because it is lost on this crowd.
Anything to further the cause of socialized medicine, no facts to the contrary are acceptable.
Mookie
Footballguy
Looking at the numbers as an eventuality is a mistake IMO. We could have done far more to keep the infection rate and the death toll down.
That is a fair question. I had forgotten that phase 3 of the trials are meant to test efficacy and not safety. I agree that it would make sense to start administering a vaccine that is considered safe, but has unknown efficacy. There is some question to whether people would be willing to take the vaccine in that case, but I think there would be plenty of volunteers.
It appears to me that the article (now that I actually read it) is not arguing that we should skip parts of the testing, but much of the testing could be done before the pandemic even happens. You could have phase 1 and 2 trials done before the virus is even discovered by designing vaccines for whole families of viruses and then tweaking when necessary.
The author doesn't seem hopeful that we will better prepare for future pandemics. That is a really sad thought. We have the ability to almost completely avoid disasters like this in the future but we won't due to a number of reasons.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
And we have a lot of it?AAABatteries said:
Shula-holic
Footballguy
At an economic, mental health, and educational cost I agree. We can debate whether it’s worth it to pay it for mitigation alone in the absence of a vaccine. But the argument is why subject yourself to either cost when the solution without paying it In economic pain and lives lost was already known?
BoerumHill
Footballguy
.TripItUp said:
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the rover
Footballguy
Is the government dumping $2 billion into the private R&D of these companies capitalism or is there another word for it?
TripItUp
Footballguy
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