voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Can't see the thread, seems to have died down for some reason. Bucs are 7-5 and pats are 6-6. Think the bucs might be just slightly more talented than the pats.
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Brady vs the hoodie (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter voiceofunreason
- Start date
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Just about every "great coach" has won with a great QB. Amazing how that works.
dhockster
Footballguy
Joe Gibbs was the exception: Theismann, Schroeder/Williams, Rypien. The Washington offense in 1991 with Rypien may have been the best offense in NFL history.
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dhockster
Footballguy
I also don't think a Brady/Belichick comparison after one season is fair to the coach. Brady got to pick the situation he was going into, knowing he could go to an offense with plenty of weapons. Tampa Bay also had a lot of good players on defense. Belichick, because Brady left, lost a top tier QB, and wasn't able to replace him with anything close to a franchise QB. Also, after being good for so many years due mostly to Brady, the lack of talent on the Patriots due to drafting low was somewhat masked. Finally, NE led the league in players who sat out due to covid, and many of those were good players on the defensive side of the ball, where their strength (other than Brady) was. The fact that NE won 7 games was a pretty remarkable coaching job.
rcam
Footballguy
Well, Bill has now had 8 seasons without Brady as a starter with 1 playoff appearance and a 59-69 record - 7-9 seems to be what we should expect from a team coached by Bill without Brady. Brady, OTOH, has just 1 season without Bill, at the age of 43, and he throws 40 TDs and wins his 7th SB. Also, Bill has been the GM of the Pats for years - any lack of talent is on him. Bill, McDaniels, Weis, Patricia, etc. etc. etc. they're all great until they don't have the GOAT taking snaps for their team. Cam Newton won MVP not that long ago, is a dozen years younger than Brady, and still arguably in a QB's prime - Bill should've gotten way more out of him.
rockaction
Footballguy
I agreed with everything you said and then you went in for this kill shot. Cam is nowhere near his prime. He's toast. If he's starting next year, he's very, very lucky. And he won't have a job long -- even if he starts the year a starter, he'll get benched at some point, at least in my estimation.
Boston
Footballguy
It actually did...he allowed Brady to do what he does and it paid off, I wasn't sure he would be able to do that...also (and I do believe Brady is a big part of this), they were very well prepared for the entire playoffs, there is zero doubt about that and he gets a ton of credit for that...Andy Reid was totally outcoached yesterday...on another note I thought Bowles did an excellent job as well...still not sold he has the personality to be a good HC but he is an excellent DC.
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed...if you saw him play there is zero doubt that Cam is done...if anything it was a freakin' miracle the Pats won 7 games this season...when looking at BB you have to separate BB the GM and BB the Coach...BB the Coach did a very good job this year, unfortunately BB the GM didn't give him much to work with.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Could also maybe say John Harbaugh. Flacco did have a very good Superbowl game and won the MVP, but he's not really considered one of the all time greats.
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Agree with all of this. Plus factor in that the AFC East was straight garbage for the last two decades, until the Bills and Dolphins finally found some decent QB play.
Think about it, Chad Pennington was the next best QB in that division after Brady across that entire timeframe. There were some seasons where the backup QB on the Pats was better than the starting QBs for Jets, Dolphins, Bills. And then there were the coaches like Rex Ryan and Adam Gase that got hired not once but twice in the division.
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The Big Donkey
Footballguy
Don't forget Parcells with: Phil Simms, Scott Brunner, Jeff Rutledge, Jeff Hostettler
Tau837
Footballguy
That was my first reaction to this post as well. In part because this thread is partly about Belichick, who was the DC on those Giants teams, which won primarily with defense.
Perhaps this was already pointed out in other threads, but the NFC South is scheduled to play the AFC East next season, which means Brady vs the Pats. Unfortunately, the game will be in Foxboro, which means it can't be scheduled as the Thursday night season-opener (which is typically hosted by the reigning champ).
rockaction
Footballguy
Hostetler, though, was underrated and went on to be productive for the Raiders (when he wasn't concussed or injured) for a good number of years after leading the Giants to the '90-'91 Super Bowl. Think he led the Raiders to an AFCCG where they got curbstomped by the the Bills 51-3 or something like that.
eta* And Parcells was a product of his era. A run-first guy. His QBs, while not worldbeaters like Elway, were efficient within his system and what he allowed them to do with that defense they'd constructed.
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Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
First of all, throw Brunner and Rutledge out of there, they didn't start any games during the Super Bowl Seasons. Second, Parcells had LT and a dominant defense, back in an era when defenses could win championships. And who was running that defense? Bill Belichick. But I agree that Parcells was a great coach.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
Yes, they had a good game in the Super Bowl and a nice run in the playoffs, but they were 8th in points allowed and 6th in yards allowed in the regular season. Tom Brady and the offensive talent on the Bucs is more of the reason they won the Super Bowl than the defense. Most defenses with a good pass rush would look outstanding when the other team doesn't have both their starting tackles.
If the Pat's and Bucs would have played in 2020, the Bucs would not have made it to the super bowl. BB has made a career out of exposing weaknesses. After 20 years with Brady he pretty much knows everything he needs to know. Teams would have copied the recipe and that would be that.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Neither has the astronomical success they enjoyed without the other; period. Having said that, the "its the system", "its the easy division", "its the bye week", "its mostly BB" crowd took a shot to the gut and a solid upper cut to the jaw this year, no doubt about it. The system was always Tom Brady imho, like Bruce Lee he is water, a Terminator (maniacal, relentless grinder and absolutely will not stop until you or he are terminated) mix that with a dominant defense such as Tampa's; that is your system.
FWIW, BB did Tommy a favor pushing him out the door, NE would have been much more competitive this yr but no way they win the SB whether Tommy was there or not. I don't think BB coaches more than another 2 or 3 years tops and imho there is a decent chance they both retire in the same yr.
FWIW, BB did Tommy a favor pushing him out the door, NE would have been much more competitive this yr but no way they win the SB whether Tommy was there or not. I don't think BB coaches more than another 2 or 3 years tops and imho there is a decent chance they both retire in the same yr.
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habsfan
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I think it was more impressive what they did to a relatively intact GB squad with Rodgers at the absolute top of his game, missing only the left tackle (whose name I will never be able to spell for the life of me so I won't bother) who was so dominant this year.
If you want to stretch it, one could say the Bucs run was as lucky as their DL was dominant, their pass rush getting to skip out on two dominant starting left tackles, if I'm not mistaken. Sometimes talent and luck equals a freight train coming, and they sure were that.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I think this last Super Bowl win elevates Brady, but it shouldn't hurt Belichick, if you get what I mean. Sports history is loaded with all-time great coaches who didn't do nearly as well without stars (go look at Bill Walsh's record without Montana), and Belichick is no different in that regard. Great coaches make a huge difference, but you still need players.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
And we were lucky enough to see what happens when the greatest coach ever gets the greatest QB ever.Ghost Rider said:
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Not having Vita Vea all year hampered the defense. His impact and presence in the NFCC and Super Bowl cannot be overstated. They ARE dominant when he plays.dhockster said:
As far as Tom Brady though? How can you not be in awe of this accomplishment under these circumstances? They most certainly do not get to nor win this game without him.
Boston
Footballguy
This!
It's so funny to see so many ex-Brady doubters now be onboard and yes, not having BB here for this one adds to the legacy...how can it not...I think what people are realizing is that beyond his on-field magic his leadership ability is second to none...he is absolutely obsessed with winning and his commitment to it both physically and mentally just raises the game of everyone around him.
As for BB the Coach I have zero doubt he has the Pats back in it very soon as long as BB the GM understands that he can not build the team the same way without Brady because it's just not gonna work...I really don't think people understand what a good job he did coaching this team to 7 wins with a depleted roster, more opt-outs then any other team and basically playing the year without a QB and a skill position group worst then many college programs...last year was set to be a reset year for awhile due to the salary cap but a stretch of horrific drafting and the opt-outs made it a worst case scenario...that brings us to this off-season which will dictate whether they can get back to being a playoff contender which I believe they can with the cap space they have available but let's face it, until we see what they have at QB they are an unknown...overall, I don't see BB leaving until he breaks Shula's record (he is 48 wins behind him) as Shula was a huge BB hater and I'm sure that motivates him and he is probably the preeminent NFL historian and understands the importance of such a record.
Black and Gold
Footballguy
This. The Pats will be back next year. Losing all of the players on Defense and with the low cap numbers, the defense is going to be tops again.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This is an extremely charitable way of saying that the Patriots have drafted poorly. But they have. There's not a whole lot of talent on that roster.
dhockster
Footballguy
Yes, they have drafted poorly. But they also have had the disadvantage of always drafting at or near the bottom of every round for 20 years. Even if they drafted well, the number of stud players they had would be less than a team that is consistently drafting in the top ten.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Pittsburgh, GB, Baltimore, and a few others have mostly drafted at the back end of the 1st round this century, too. They seem to be able to find good players there.
The Ravens last 10 drafts, they've had an average draft position of 21.4 in the 1st and that's with a #6 in Harbaugh's one losing season pulling the average up. They selected 10 players. Of those 10, 2 were flat out busts for them - Matt Elam & Breshaud Perriman. Another - Hayden Hurst - got outplayed by Mark Andrews, asked out, and was traded for the pick (2nd round) that became JK Dobbins. Two more - Marquis Brown & Patrick Queen - are very young, but both start and are productive. Of the other 5, 4 are pro bowlers (3 of them All Pros in 2019) and the 5th (Jimmy Smith) has been a 10 year starter.
There's a reason teams that draft consistently in the top 10 are in the top 10. It's certainly not because all of those studs they draft are helping them win games.
NE has just not drafted well, which - to me - makes their run of late all the more remarkable. In fact, I'm not sure they've actually drafted a real player in the last 10 years. It seems every year they go into the draft with like 17 picks and come out of it with 3 dudes from Grand Canyon Tech.
I think fans/media get way too caught up into 1st round draft position, unless you have a shot at a generational QB. You can find good players from any position.
Boston
Footballguy
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Lions fans learned that lesson second hand by hiring a BB assistant as their GM a few years ago.
habsfan
Footballguy
I've been reflecting on what it really means for Brady to walk on to a new team and immediately win it all. This isn't the NBA where LeBron makes a few phone calls in the off season and goes to Miami. Tampa looked to be in pretty good shape on paper going into the season but the odds against actually manifesting it have to be extremely long.
dhockster
Footballguy
Good points. My overall point though was it is still too early to write off Belichick as an elite coach, which many people are doing, just because of a 7-9 season after Tom Brady left.
That's been the take away for me. Bill Belichick the coach obviously is at the top. Bill Belichick the GM has TONS of questions.
It's the thing I see so much with (nobody here) but fans in general just don't think. They'll scream, "The Cowboys will always be terrible until Jerry Jones gives up the GM job. They have so much talent and never win"
When the primary job of the GM is to put talent on the field.
On the other hand, Belichick seems mostly to get a pass for terrible drafting. But I get it. Rings solve a lot.
dhockster
Footballguy
One caveat about Jones though. He is an owner willing to take talented players with questionable character/background, which other teams have passed on, which is why he can get them. That has definitely blown up in his face a few times. So a GM not only has to get talented players, but talented players who work within the team framework rather than their own personal framework.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
-Agree on the Brady points. Lifelong Phinsfan but had the pleasure of living in Tampa Bay during the Dungy-era and got very caught up in the team, Sapp-Brooks, lot of local Florida college talent on those teams and so it was very difficult to stomach Brady signing with a team I have very strong ties to. But I am going to say as I said to many folks, "What a gift" mr Brady leaves for a few of us who had hated him and had a bad taste in our mouths for the better part of 20 years and while I still have a bitter taste for all the losing down here in Miami, I did start to understand and appreciate Brady the more and more time went on throughout the season. His ability to lead on and off the field, recruit players and get everyone on the same page...what else am I supposed to say? Miami never stood a chance, wouldn't have mattered what we did.
-Now the Shula-BB stuff...I'll just say that 48 wins without Brady could take a little while longer. How many 8-8 seasons can he survive or people call in to question what he is hanging around for? Maybe it won't go that way but you have to acknowledge what Buffalo has discovered and also the improvements Miami is making. Both of those teams seem to be on the rise and the Pats are starting to fade. I didn't realize it was under 50 wins, not pulling for BB to hang on. A good 5-11 season would at least turn the heat up a notch or two there. He's always going to scrape 6-7-8 wins, he's a good game planner and can simply just make the opposing offense look like they are in mud all day, I'll give him that.
Cheers!
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