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Official***Baltimore at Cleveland +3 (45.5) Game Thread***


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0:02 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield pass short middle to K.Hunt to CLV 27 for 2 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-R.Higgins at CLV 27. R.Higgins to CLV 21 for -6 yards. Lateral to B.Mayfield to CLV 15 for -6 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-J.Landry at CLV 12. J.Landry to CLV 19 for 7 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-K.Hunt at CLV 18. K.Hunt to CLV 16 for -2 yards. Lateral to R.Higgins to CLV 0 for -16 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-J.Landry at CLV 0. J.Landry pushed ob in End Zone, SAFETY (M.Humphrey).

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Bad beat for those who had Cleveland +3, but there has to be a better play to run in those scenarios.  What if Mayfield had gotten a lateral and got crushed and injured on some weird lateral?  It is worth risking injury to your stars on a play that has a slim to none chance of working?  Not saying give up, just that there has to be a play that is less risky. 

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1 minute ago, Ghost Rider said:

Bad beat for those who had Cleveland +3, but there has to be a better play to run in those scenarios.  What if Mayfield had gotten a lateral and got crushed and injured on some weird lateral?  It is worth risking injury to your stars on a play that has a slim to none chance of working?  Not saying give up, just that there has to be a play that is less risky. 

I’m sure Landry could complete a little 5 yarder and it’s one more athlete out there 

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1 minute ago, Pipes said:

Such a bad gambling beat for those who had the Browns.  SVP can’t stop chuckling about it

SVP is a GOD for those who don’t know. I’m a Terp like him and he’s been an amazing dude every time I’ve had the pleasure of interacting. A man of the people.

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11 minutes ago, JoeSteeler said:

0:02 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield pass short middle to K.Hunt to CLV 27 for 2 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-R.Higgins at CLV 27. R.Higgins to CLV 21 for -6 yards. Lateral to B.Mayfield to CLV 15 for -6 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-J.Landry at CLV 12. J.Landry to CLV 19 for 7 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-K.Hunt at CLV 18. K.Hunt to CLV 16 for -2 yards. Lateral to R.Higgins to CLV 0 for -16 yards. FUMBLES, recovered by CLV-J.Landry at CLV 0. J.Landry pushed ob in End Zone, SAFETY (M.Humphrey).

My defense scoring has -1 per fumble forced. In one playoff game a guy entered the night down 0.42 points but had the Ravens D going. He was 98% probable to win on the site. Before that last play he was down about 6 points or so. I figured he'd gain the 2 for the safety and some fractional points for any lost yardage, but forgot about the fumbles. When I looked after the play was recorded he'd ended up losing by only 0.25 points. Now have to wait out any stat changes on Thursday, but I can't believe it got that close.

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4 minutes ago, mike11162 said:

My defense scoring has -1 per fumble forced. In one playoff game a guy entered the night down 0.42 points but had the Ravens D going. He was 98% probable to win on the site. Before that last play he was down about 6 points or so. I figured he'd gain the 2 for the safety and some fractional points for any lost yardage, but forgot about the fumbles. When I looked after the play was recorded he'd ended up losing by only 0.25 points. Now have to wait out any stat changes on Thursday, but I can't believe it got that close.

Whoa the Ravens forced 6 fumbles on the night!

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3 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I still can’t decide if Lamar Jackson is a good QB.

If the wildcat had just become a thing, he’d be the best WC QB since Ronnie Brown. 

As it is he still feels like a RB who passes a little & manages the offense.

I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. He’s a hell of a football player. But I also wonder if, like the Wildcat, DCs are gonna figure out Jackson’s schtick. . 

Lamar missed those 2 open throws before he went out. But otherwise he had a very strong passing game, including being perfect on 2 clutch scoring drives when he came back

Why is it hard to say that being a top 15 passer in the current NFL combined with being a once in a lifetime runner makes him a good QB?

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9 minutes ago, The_Man said:

Lamar missed those 2 open throws before he went out. But otherwise he had a very strong passing game, including being perfect on 2 clutch scoring drives when he came back

Why is it hard to say that being a top 15 passer in the current NFL combined with being a once in a lifetime runner makes him a good QB?

He’s gonna miss some throws. He really needs to improve his throws outside the hashes too. But good Qb isn’t up for judgement. He’s absolutely a top tier asset at the position. Is he a good passer? Tough to judge because he’s not going to have to be an above average thrower for a long time. Until he loses his burst he’s always going to be throwing into larger windows with the LBs close to the line. He’s also throwing to well below average weapons on the outside. Imagine if the Ravens eventually hit on a stud wr.

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I'm almost speechless after watching this game. I couldn't possibly add much to what others are likely posting, the game was one of the best I've seen from an entertainment POV almost all season, has to be one of the best in 2020. 2 teams, both trying to get into the Playoffs and Cleveland technically 1 game back at the kickoff? OK, 1.5 but when's the last time in the 2nd/3rd week of December they were 1 GB of the Division? 

-Baker made a booboo in the 3rd but he also was instrumental in them coming back and making this such an awesome game. Yes Chubb and Hunt were pretty terrific but things are happening in Cleveland you haven't seen in a long time...the 2-Pt Conversion that bounced off one and into the other Receiver's hands, that was a tremendous play and it put Cleveland up 35-34 IIRC and it looked like they might win the game after being down 34-20 when Baker threw the interception. But he brought them back, he didn't fold, I felt like Baker took a step forward tonight. 

-Browns fans crying in the stands was hard to watch...c'mon folks, there's a pandemic and you are lucky to even be sitting in there because many of us don't think you should be at all...and personally I'm more like Davis of the Raiders who says if we can't all go then none of us go, I prefer that approach but I don't want to debate this. The fans wouldn't cry if they knew they were going to be blown out or lose the football game but the fans there are passionate and have bought in and they feel like they should be able to beat the Ravens as they have seen them throughout the season. 

-Still think the Ravens are not much more than a Wildcard team right now, 11 for 17 at your QB position won't score 47 most weeks. I'm not sure how they even do it. But I'll go with some media people quick with hot takes post game..."MVP Returns Tonight" "Reigning MVP" and that's all good, I still feel like Baltimore is not the worst team you could face in the Playoffs but Louis Riddick would feel otherwise. Not much at Receiver, nothing real sharp at RB, a quality TE, just spy on Lamar and force him to throw the football. I make it sound so simple. 

Great game, thank you from an NFL fan. 

Edited by Ministry of Pain
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22 minutes ago, The_Man said:

Lamar missed those 2 open throws before he went out. But otherwise he had a very strong passing game, including being perfect on 2 clutch scoring drives when he came back

Why is it hard to say that being a top 15 passer in the current NFL combined with being a once in a lifetime runner makes him a good QB?

Let's see how you thrown clinching your booty cheeks.

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22 minutes ago, The_Man said:

Lamar missed those 2 open throws before he went out. But otherwise he had a very strong passing game, including being perfect on 2 clutch scoring drives when he came back

Why is it hard to say that being a top 15 passer in the current NFL combined with being a once in a lifetime runner makes him a good QB?

Very solid on what 10 passes? 

he’s a running back behind center.

He’s not a good QB.

He’s a great football player. 

Has nothing to do with it being hard to say - it is what it is. He’s not playing QB. He’s playing wildcat. 

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3 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

I'm almost speechless after watching this game. I couldn't possibly add much to what others are likely posting, the game was one of the best I've seen from an entertainment POV almost all season, has to be one of the best in 2020. 2 teams, both trying to get into the Playoffs and Cleveland technically 1 game back at the kickoff? OK, 1.5 but when's the last time in the 2nd/3rd week of December they were 1 GB of the Division? 

-Baker made a booboo in the 3rd but he also was instrumental in them coming back and making this such an awesome game. Yes Chubb and Hunt were pretty terrific but things are happening in Cleveland you haven't seen in a long time...the 2-Pt Conversion that bounced off one and into the other Receiver's hands, that was a tremendous play and it put Cleveland up 35-34 IIRC and it looked like they might win the game after being down 34-20 when Baker threw the interception. But he brought them back, he didn't fold, I felt like Baker took a step forward tonight. 

-Browns fans crying in the stands was hard to watch...c'mon folks, there's a pandemic and you are lucky to even be sitting in there because many of us don't think you should be that all...and personally I'm more like Davis of the Raiders who says if we can't all go then none of us go, I prefer that approach but I don't want to debate this. The fans wouldn't cry if they knew they were going to be blown out or lose the football game but the fans there are passionate and have bought in and they feel like they should be able to beat the Ravens as they have seen them throughout the season. 

-Still think the Ravens are not much more than a Wildcard team right now, 11 for 17 at your QB position won't score 47 most weeks. I'm not sure how they even do it. But I'll go with some media people quick with hot takes post game..."MVP Returns Tonight" "Reigning MVP" and that's all good but I still feel like Baltimore is not the worst team you could face in the Playoffs but Louis Riddick would feel otherwise. Not much at Receiver, nothing real sharp at RB, a quality TE, just spy on Lamar and force him to throw the football. I make it sound so simple. 

Great game, thank you from an NFL fan. 

The offense is going to get points on the board. The line is really starting to come together. The defense desperately needs to get healthy and play better. 
 

As for the bolded, the Rb room has a lot of talent. And it’s easy to say spy Lamar but he’s sort of a special athlete. I have no idea how Cleveland let him break contain to his right on the Hollywood td. You just can’t let that happen. If Brown doesn’t break wide open Lamar easily gets the first down.

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4 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Very solid on what 10 passes? 

he’s a running back behind center.

He’s not a good QB.

He’s a great football player. 

Has nothing to do with it being hard to say - it is what it is. He’s not playing QB. He’s playing wildcat. 

That’s ridiculous if you’re actually being serious. Analysis like this let the Ravens get him at 32 so I guess I should be happy. 

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8 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

That’s ridiculous if you’re actually being serious. Analysis like this let the Ravens get him at 32 so I guess I should be happy. 

I’m just watching the game. He isn’t a pocket passer. This is a run first offense and moreover he’s a run-1st “quarterback”. 

I’m being 100% serious. He threw the ball 2x 20 mins into the game. He was 1/2 for 3 yards.

I’m not insulting LJax at all. He’s a great football player. I keep saying that.

But it’s hard to evaluate him as a QB when he’s not playing QB. Which is 97% of the time. 

I’ll ask it again because I think it’s a fair question and I’m interested in what people think...who’s a better QUARTERBACK: 

1. 2020 Lamar Jackson

2. 2006 Michael Vick

both allegedly “running QBs”

Vick took a lot of criticism for his style of play, but he was a better QB than he gets credit for. I think he was a far better QB than LJax Is now. 

Ravens fans better hope LJax can develop into a pocket passer before he takes that one magical hit too many. It’s a dangerous way to play a dangerous sport no matter how big & tough a guy is. 

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3 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’m just watching the game. He isn’t a pocket passer. This is a run first offense and moreover he’s a run-1st “quarterback”. 

I’m being 100% serious. He threw the ball 2x 20 mins into the game. He was 1/2 for 3 yards.

I’m not insulting LJax at all. He’s a great football player. I keep saying that.

But it’s hard to evaluate him as a QB when he’s not playing QB. Which is 97% of the time. 

I’ll ask it again because I think it’s a fair question and I’m interested in what people think...who’s a better QUARTERBACK: 

1. 2020 Lamar Jackson

2. 2006 Michael Vick

both allegedly “running QBs”

Vick took a lot of criticism for his style of play, but he was a better QB than he gets credit for. I think he was a far better QB than LJax Is now. 

Ravens fans better hope LJax can develop into a pocket passer before he takes that one magical hit too many. It’s a dangerous way to play a dangerous sport no matter how big & tough a guy is. 

97% of the time not playing Qb is extreme hyperbole. Far better Qb seems like hyperbole as well. Lamar’s passing numbers in 2020 will likely dwarf Vick’s in 2006. And Lamar brings an extra element in the running game. Vick was an electric runner but his usage just wasn’t at the same level. Maybe that was a sign of the times or maybe it’s just Lamar being a truly elite runner at Qb. I suspect the latter. He will carry the ball more each of his first 3 years than Vick did in any year of his career. And that’s what makes him so tough to judge. Again, he will throw into much bigger windows because of his threat as a runner. But also again he isn’t helped much by his weapons on the outside. That’s a lot to sort through. He’s won’t ever be Brees/Brady/Ben as a thrower. But he won’t have to be for a long time. But he isn’t a Rb. He’s a Qb who runs like a Rb. The debate can be whether he’s closer to Deshaun Watson or Blake Bortles. But he isn’t Alvin Kamara back there chucking it around.

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27 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’m just watching the game. He isn’t a pocket passer. This is a run first offense and moreover he’s a run-1st “quarterback”. 

I’m being 100% serious. He threw the ball 2x 20 mins into the game. He was 1/2 for 3 yards.

I’m not insulting LJax at all. He’s a great football player. I keep saying that.

But it’s hard to evaluate him as a QB when he’s not playing QB. Which is 97% of the time. 

I’ll ask it again because I think it’s a fair question and I’m interested in what people think...who’s a better QUARTERBACK: 

1. 2020 Lamar Jackson

2. 2006 Michael Vick

both allegedly “running QBs”

Vick took a lot of criticism for his style of play, but he was a better QB than he gets credit for. I think he was a far better QB than LJax Is now. 

Ravens fans better hope LJax can develop into a pocket passer before he takes that one magical hit too many. It’s a dangerous way to play a dangerous sport no matter how big & tough a guy is. 

Vick was a rare athlete

Jackson is a rare athlete and had a college career that was as good if not better than Vick coming out of college. 

Just be careful here friend, I'm a big fan of Vick and was immediately when he was in the league, he was a dual threat and could throw the ball 70 yards flat footed. Vick as an Eagle was like being able to teleport back in time for a while.

The Ravens issues are no identity on offense most weeks IMHO, and what Hot Sauce says is true, Jackson was not throwing a pass to start the game, he was like 3 of 6 for 50 yds close to the end of the 1st Half, that's not the kind of numbers you can typically win with in the NFL but the Ravens are bucking the trend. 

Most Ravens fans have been honest about where they are at(None of them have been bragging), maybe 10-6 and just get Jackson on the road as a spoiler for a week or two, maybe that's what he needs to get the Playoffs stigma off his back. 

Baltimore needs some help on their skill positions, I'll let their fans dice up what they have but I am not very impressed outside of Andrews. Brown should not be called Hollywood other than the fact he is a good actor trying to be a WR, drops too many balls. Let's see Jackson with some better skill players especially at WR. Baltimore must get an Alpha WR1 with real size and then a person with great hands that can be the Edelman type for the slot or sort passes. I would also consider adding more at TE, their others are not terrible but why not try and create a 2 Monster at TE, an Alpha WR1, slot with hands, a strong RB that demands to be fed and breaks off long runs to punish the Defense, then maybe we could see how good Jackson is. He did not play the position the way he is playing it now when he was in college IMHO...3,500 yds pass and 30 TDs pass or close to it B2B Years and then there was 1,500+ Rush and another 20 TDs on the ground so this guy threw and ran for 5,000 yds and 50 TDs as a QB playing for what school? Louisville? Whoever came within half those numbers ever at Louisville?

But yes I agree that Vick was a more lethal QB in the NFL. Jackson can get there, think he needs some help. He did win the MVP last year, they said that on the TV and I don't pay attention to these individual awards but assuming that's true, the NFL thought a lot about Jackson last year. 

Baltimore could end being a major spoiler if they get it dialed in the next 2-3 weeks. Cleveland as well since they will be a similar Wildcard team on the road vs Indy/TEN or perhaps Buffalo

Edited by Ministry of Pain
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22 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’m just watching the game. He isn’t a pocket passer. This is a run first offense and moreover he’s a run-1st “quarterback”. 

I’m being 100% serious. He threw the ball 2x 20 mins into the game. He was 1/2 for 3 yards.

I’m not insulting LJax at all. He’s a great football player. I keep saying that.

But it’s hard to evaluate him as a QB when he’s not playing QB. Which is 97% of the time. 

I’ll ask it again because I think it’s a fair question and I’m interested in what people think...who’s a better QUARTERBACK: 

1. 2020 Lamar Jackson

2. 2006 Michael Vick

both allegedly “running QBs”

Vick took a lot of criticism for his style of play, but he was a better QB than he gets credit for. I think he was a far better QB than LJax Is now. 

Ravens fans better hope LJax can develop into a pocket passer before he takes that one magical hit too many. It’s a dangerous way to play a dangerous sport no matter how big & tough a guy is. 

In 2006 Vick completed 53% of his passes with a 20-13 TD-INT ratio and a 76 passer rating

Lamar is completing 64% with an 18-7 ratio and a 95+ passer rating

 And Lamar probably has more yards rushing per game after tonight 

I honestly don’t understand what you’re talking about 

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2 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Vick was a rare athlete

Jackson is a rare athlete and had a college career that was as good if not better than Vick coming out of college. 

Just be careful here friend, I'm a big fan of Vick and was immediately when he was in the league, he was a dual threat and could throw the ball 70 yards flat footed. Vick as an Eagle was like being able to teleport back in time for a while.

The Ravens issues are no identity on offense most weeks IMHO, and what Hot Sauce says is true, Jackson was not throwing a pass to start the game, he was like 3 of 6 for 50 yds close to the end of the 1st Half, that's not the kind of numbers you can typically win with in the NFL but the Ravens are bucking the trend. 

Most Ravens fans have been honest about where they are at, maybe 10-6 and just get Jackson on the road as a spoiler for a week or two, maybe that's what he needs to get the Playoffs stigma off his back. 

Baltimore needs some help on their skill positions, I'll let their fans dice up what they have but I am not very impressed outside of Andrews. Brown should not be called Hollywood other than the fact he is a good actor trying to be a WR, drops too many balls. Let's see Jackson with some better skill players especially at WR. Baltimore must get an Alpha WR1 with real size and then a person with great hands that can be the Edelman type for the slot or sort passes. I would also consider adding more at TE, their others are not terrible but why not try and create a 2 Monster at TE, an Alpha WR1, slot with hands, a strong RB that demands to be fed and breaks off long runs to punish the Defense, then maybe we could see how good jackson is. He did not play the position the way he is playing it now when he was in college IMHO...3,500 yds pass and 30 TDs pass or close to it B2B Years and then there was 1,500+ Rush and another 20 TDs on the ground so this guy threw and ran for 5,000 yds and 50 TDs as a QB playing for what school? Louisville? Whoever came within half those numbers ever at Louisville?

But yes I agree that Vick was a more lethal QB in the NFL. Jackson can get there, think he needs some help. He did win the MVP last year, they said that on the TV and I don't pay attention to these individual awards but assuming that's true, the NFL thought a lot about Jackson last year. 

Baltimore could end being a major spoiler if they get it dialed in the next 2-3 weeks. Cleveland as well since they will be a similar Wildcard team on the road vs Indy/TEN or perhaps Buffalo

I’ll chime in here as a Ravens fan to say Boyle is an excellent complement to Andrews at TE. And Duvernay still has a lot of potential in the slot. Desperately need an alpha at wr. Lamar already has a 35/6 season in the pros and he’s probably in the 22/8 territory (in 15 games) this year with another 1000 on the ground. Vick did not touch those numbers as a passer other than his one huge year in Philly. At the age of 30. Lamar is 23.

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2 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

But yes I agree that Vick was a more lethal QB in the NFL. Jackson can get there, think he needs some help. He did win the MVP last year, they said that on the TV and I don't pay attention to these individual awards but assuming that's true, the NFL thought a lot about Jackson last year. 

Baltimore could end being a major spoiler if they get it dialed in the next 2-3 weeks. Cleveland as well since they will be a similar Wildcard team on the road vs Indy/TEN or perhaps Buffalo

I agree that he can get there. It’s just not accurate to call him a QB right now. I don’t know what he is. MVP, candidate sublime talent, incredible runner, but calling him a QB seems inaccurate.

And it may not be be any fault of his own. Baltimore built that offense around his skill set. If he goes to any other team & they try to use him as a QB, what’s his career look like to date? 

He was beastly in college. Would it translate? If so, why wouldn’t Baltimore want to use him more as a passer? 

The only problems I see with LJax are about whether this is sustainable. Over time defensive coordinators tend to figure out gimmicky offenses. Baltimore’s offense feels kinda gimmicky. And running QBs take a lot of hits. There was one tonight where two defenders closed at speed and did the Malachi Crunch - no one wants to see their QB taking those kind of hits. And as some mentioned, he could start to lose a step over time, so even if he stays healthy; Father Time is undefeated. And if LJax isn’t rushing for 100+ a game, what’s he doing? 

When Vick came back with the Eagles he was a different QB. He was sitting back in the pocket & making some throws I didn’t think him capable of - but he evolved. 

I think it’s fair to wonder if LJax can similarly evolve. And if he can, why wouldn’t the Ravens be trying to make that happen now?  There was a lot of talk from BAL about putting more emphasis on the pass this year. That doesn’t look like it’s happening. Fair to wonder why. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

 

I agree that he can get there. It’s just not accurate to call him a QB right now. I don’t know what he is. MVP, candidate sublime talent, incredible runner, but calling him a QB seems inaccurate.

And it may not be be any fault of his own. Baltimore built that offense around his skill set. If he goes to any other team & they try to use him as a QB, what’s his career look like to date? 

He was beastly in college. Would it translate? If so, why wouldn’t Baltimore want to use him more as a passer? 

The only problems I see with LJax are about whether this is sustainable. Over time defensive coordinators tend to figure out gimmicky offenses. Baltimore’s offense feels kinda gimmicky. And running QBs take a lot of hits. There was one tonight where two defenders closed at speed and did the Malachi Crunch - no one wants to see their QB taking those kind of hits. And as some mentioned, he could start to lose a step over time, so even if he stays healthy; Father Time is undefeated. And if LJax isn’t rushing for 100+ a game, what’s he doing? 

When Vick came back with the Eagles he was a different QB. He was sitting back in the pocket & making some throws I didn’t think him capable of - but he evolved. 

I think it’s fair to wonder if LJax can similarly evolve. And if he can, why wouldn’t the Ravens be trying to make that happen now?  There was a lot of talk from BAL about putting more emphasis on the pass this year. That doesn’t look like it’s happening. Fair to wonder why. 

 

He just led the league in td passes last year!!! You’re comparing Vick as a more polished passer at age 30 than previous Vick and worrying about Lamar, who has already had a season better than that, at age 22. Vick had a stronger arm. That’s where it ends. And I loved Vick. My mom went to Va Tech. I had his jersey his rookie year. Lamar dwarfs him as a runner and has had a season better than Vick’s best year at age 22 as a passer. As for why he hasn’t taken more responsibly as a passer now? Probably has a lot to do with losing Stanley and Boyle. And having baaaad weapons on the outside. There’s many layers to this debate I’ll give you that. But you’re being quite a bit unfair in a lot if ways right now.

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14 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

I’ll chime in here as a Ravens fan to say Boyle is an excellent complement to Andrews at TE. And Duvernay still has a lot of potential in the slot. Desperately need an alpha at wr. Lamar already has a 35/6 season in the pros and he’s probably in the 22/8 territory (in 15 games) this year with another 1000 on the ground. Vick did not touch those numbers as a passer other than his one huge year in Philly. At the age of 30. Lamar is 23.

I think I even mentioned he won the MVP last year, maybe I shoulda been more tongue-in-cheek about it. 

He was a hero tonight, his timing as McSore went down to get back into the game and lead them to victory, you can't say too much other than WOW!

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Just now, Ministry of Pain said:

I think I even mentioned he won the MVP last year, maybe I shoulda been more tongue-in-cheek about it. 

He was a hero tonight, his timing as McSore went down to get back into the game and lead them to victory, you can't say too much other than WOW!

I’m mostly with you here. I was probably just reacting to saying Vick was a more lethal threat in the NFL. I disagree with that. And again I loved Vick.

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