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Official***Baltimore at Cleveland +3 (45.5) Game Thread***


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20 minutes ago, The_Man said:

In 2006 Vick completed 53% of his passes with a 20-13 TD-INT ratio and a 76 passer rating

Lamar is completing 64% with an 18-7 ratio and a 95+ passer rating

 And Lamar probably has more yards rushing per game after tonight 

I honestly don’t understand what you’re talking about 

Very different offenses and the evolution of the NFL into a ball control pass attack, very different. Vick was also held back by Dan Reeves a lot, Harbaugh was open to immediate change in offensive philosophy. 

Jackson is very good if you need me to say it, I've watched him since he grew up in South Florida and played his HS football here in Palm Beach, I've followed him closely. It just feels like the guy who was throwing the ball last year and was a dual threat, it feels more like if you can bottle him up from running the ball you have a good chance to beat the Ravens. 

I agree with @Hot Sauce Guy that it feels like he is playing a different position but maybe that's credit to Greg Roman. 

You had a good point I thought about his numbers on that drive when they had to have it, wasn't he 5 for 5? Th numbers speak for themselves, seems like when they allow him the freedom to throw more that he connects. Lot of dropped footballs out there tonight. 

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1 hour ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’m just watching the game. He isn’t a pocket passer. This is a run first offense and moreover he’s a run-1st “quarterback”. 

I’m being 100% serious. He threw the ball 2x 20 mins into the game. He was 1/2 for 3 yards.

I’m not insulting LJax at all. He’s a great football player. I keep saying that.

But it’s hard to evaluate him as a QB when he’s not playing QB. Which is 97% of the time. 

I’ll ask it again because I think it’s a fair question and I’m interested in what people think...who’s a better QUARTERBACK: 

1. 2020 Lamar Jackson

2. 2006 Michael Vick

both allegedly “running QBs”

Vick took a lot of criticism for his style of play, but he was a better QB than he gets credit for. I think he was a far better QB than LJax Is now. 

Ravens fans better hope LJax can develop into a pocket passer before he takes that one magical hit too many. It’s a dangerous way to play a dangerous sport no matter how big & tough a guy is. 

 

56 minutes ago, The_Man said:

In 2006 Vick completed 53% of his passes with a 20-13 TD-INT ratio and a 76 passer rating

Lamar is completing 64% with an 18-7 ratio and a 95+ passer rating

 And Lamar probably has more yards rushing per game after tonight 

I honestly don’t understand what you’re talking about 

:goodposting:

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I don't really think its worth debating Jackson vs Vick as what Jackson did in his 2nd season was amazing. Better than anything Vick ever accomplished as a passer.

That said his performance as a passer has regressed this season. So I think that is a concern.

As far as Greg Roman and the scheme, I think it may have optimized getting the most out of Jackson as a runner, but this is coming at the expense of an offense not helping him develop further as a passer in my view and I wonder with Roman as the OC if that will cap Jacksons development as a passer.

He is only 23 years old and things could change. I never thought Josh Allen would become as good a passer as he has been this season. I wonder if a coaching change or personnel change is needed for Jackson to keep improving in that area though.

Its winning football what they are doing for now. That is part of my concern though is that the coaches like how they are doing things right now and maybe I am wrong to think they should strive for more balance.

 

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I see a lot of ignorance when it comes to the big picture of the Ravens offense this year vs last year.  Lots of details left out...looks like a lot of lazy hack fantasy analyst i hear.  Lamar's offensive line being decimated, and the defenses inability to get stops and dominate the clock is the big difference.

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9 hours ago, The_Man said:

In 2006 Vick completed 53% of his passes with a 20-13 TD-INT ratio and a 76 passer rating

Lamar is completing 64% with an 18-7 ratio and a 95+ passer rating

 And Lamar probably has more yards rushing per game after tonight 

I honestly don’t understand what you’re talking about 

Pass completion and QBR are ridiculous stats when comparing the sample size though. If Vick put it up 30x and LJax passed 10x, you’re comparing apples to oranges.

Which is exactly my point.

Comparing LJax to QBs is apples to oranges because while what he’s doing is amazing, he’s not playing QB. 

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11 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Pass completion and QBR are ridiculous stats when comparing the sample size though. If Vick put it up 30x and LJax passed 10x, you’re comparing apples to oranges.

Which is exactly my point.

Comparing LJax to QBs is apples to oranges because while what he’s doing is amazing, he’s not playing QB. 

You should probably have checked out the passing statistics on Vick/Jackson before posting this.

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I would like to give a big shoutout to @Cobbler1 and @The_Man for coming in here after the game and guiding several of us to take a 2nd look at what we were saying. 

-It's astonishing what Lamar Jackson has done coming into the league, and comparing him to Vick is pointless. Jackson is his own QB, he's not a Vick clone and I never viewed them as the same QB coming out of college. 

-When we started writing out the issues or things we as fans believe the Ravens would benefit from, it seems obvious that Lamar Jackson is the whole offense right now. They need lots of help with their WRs and I feel like that has been an issues for the Ravens for a long long time. They got a guy late in his career from Tennessee I believe, can't think of his name off the top of my head but he was pretty reliable and in FF, you always wanted this guy as your WR2/3 type on your roster. I had him several times on my teams. 

Rather than split hairs or try and think we are on to something in dissecting him, I'd rather praise him for last night and we all are aware of the pandemic and the impact it's had on many teams, not just the Ravens but when you factor in no preseason and then start and stop and...I'm saying there's no rush to be right or wrong here, I'd like to just take it in and enjoy it for what it was. A great football game, with lots of ups and downs, a QB who hobbled back on that field...can you question Jackson's leadership or ability to fight thru adversity? 

We allow fantasy sometimes to dictate reality and Jackson buyers this season might have felt like he was a disappointment but in NFL terms, he's coming off an MVP year and suddenly he's playing better and the Ravens are having success, that seems to back up why he won the MVP last year. 

Great stuff and @Hot Sauce Guy as well, I understand your POV and this morning after re-watching some of this game over coffee, just a highly entertaining football game. We all saw some things we really loved. It almost felt like Cleveland won the game...honestly it didn't feel like there was a loser last night and BOTH TEAMS are knee deep in the Playoff hunt and that was a Playoff Level game last night. Both teams should feel good this morning and optimistic about their future. 

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4 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

I would like to give a big shoutout to @Cobbler1 and @The_Man for coming in here after the game and guiding several of us to take a 2nd look at what we were saying. 

-It's astonishing what Lamar Jackson has done coming into the league, and comparing him to Vick is pointless. Jackson is his own QB, he's not a Vick clone and I never viewed them as the same QB coming out of college. 

-When we started writing out the issues or things we as fans believe the Ravens would benefit from, it seems obvious that Lamar Jackson is the whole offense right now. They need lots of help with their WRs and I feel like that has been an issues for the Ravens for a long long time. They got a guy late in his career from Tennessee I believe, can't think of his name off the top of my head but he was pretty reliable and in FF, you always wanted this guy as your WR2/3 type on your roster. I had him several times on my teams. 

Rather than split hairs or try and think we are on to something in dissecting him, I'd rather praise him for last night and we all are aware of the pandemic and the impact it's had on many teams, not just the Ravens but when you factor in no preseason and then start and stop and...I'm saying there's no rush to be right or wrong here, I'd like to just take it in and enjoy it for what it was. A great football game, with lots of ups and downs, a QB who hobbled back on that field...can you question Jackson's leadership or ability to fight thru adversity? 

We allow fantasy sometimes to dictate reality and Jackson buyers this season might have felt like he was a disappointment but in NFL terms, he's coming off an MVP year and suddenly he's playing better and the Ravens are having success, that seems to back up why he won the MVP last year. 

Great stuff and @Hot Sauce Guy as well, I understand your POV and this morning after re-watching some of this game over coffee, just a highly entertaining football game. We all saw some things we really loved. It almost felt like Cleveland won the game...honestly it didn't feel like there was a loser last night and BOTH TEAMS are knee deep in the Playoff hunt and that was a Playoff Level game last night. Both teams should feel good this morning and optimistic about their future. 

Good stuff MOP. Appreciate you for keeping an open mind. The wr you’re thinking of is probably Derek Mason

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1 minute ago, Uruk-Hai said:

Probably Derek Mason. But they have also brought in Anquan Bolden, Steve Smith, TJ Housh, Lee Evans, and other vets late in their careers.

ah yes, Mason.

yeah they seem to bring in steady receivers on the back end of their careers.

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16 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

Good stuff MOP. Appreciate you for keeping an open mind. The wr you’re thinking of is probably Derek Mason

That's him!

He even was an ALL PRO 1 year and I was always impressed with his work ethic and ability to stay on the field. 

Mason  Incredible, 8-9 years of 1,000+ yds, Mr Consistent. You knew he was good for 75/1000 every time you drafted him, 5-7 TDs were just a bonus for Steady Eddie. I loved guys like him when I subscribed more to RB theory and I was uncomfortable with the volatility at WR when I was younger. I used to pair Mason with Reggie Wayne and you got production every week it seemed. 

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21 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

Probably Derek Mason. But they have also brought in Anquan Bolden, Steve Smith, TJ Housh, Lee Evans, and other vets late in their careers.

Exactly, this team is good at finding Vet WRs that just want to win and are not as concerned about their precious stats every week. No room for Prima Donnas with this front office and coaching staff and that's a good thing IMHO. 

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59 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

He led the NFL in TD passes last year. Did he play QB then?

Actually yes - a lot more than he has this year. I actually emphasized that I was specially talking about 2020 LJax in prior posts. Reading those prior to posting this may have been insightful for you. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
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5 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Actually yes - a lot more than he has this year. I actually emphasized that I was specially talking about 2020 LJax in prior posts. Reading those prior to posting this may have been insightful for you. 

So, where's your cutoff line on when a player is a QB and when he's not? Is it a stat line? Eyeball test?

Also, appreciate it if you'd tone down the condescension when speaking to me. I read your prior posts and your logic confounds me.

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14 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I did. 2020 LJax has regressed, and he hardly threw the ball at all last night. 

Ok well a 1 game sample size means next to nothing and we’re not talking about regression here. You asked about the 2006 Vick year compared to Lamar this year. The_Man points out that Lamar’s passing numbers are superior to Vick’s. You mention that Vick threw the ball more as a reason for his ratings being higher. Clearly you didn’t look at the numbers. Lamar us averaging 25.8 attempts per game. Vick averaged 24.25. What else ya got?

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3 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

Ok well a 1 game sample size means next to nothing and we’re not talking about regression here. You asked about the 2006 Vick year compared to Lamar this year. The_Man points out that Lamar’s passing numbers are superior to Vick’s. You mention that Vick threw the ball more as a reason for his ratings being higher. Clearly you didn’t look at the numbers. Lamar us averaging 25.8 attempts per game. Vick averaged 24.25. What else ya got?

This is the game topic for the game we watched last night. I was posting in that context. 

I understand some of you are more emotionally invested in LJax than I am, and that’s ok. Fanboy away.

Last night LJax hardly threw the ball. I question whether that schtick has longevity. I also question whether he can evolve as a passer when his legs slow up or when DCs start to figure out this new flavor of wildcat. And again, purely comparing numbers is disingenuous. 

But to watch last night’s game and claim LJax is playing “quarterback” is somewhat ludicrous. He’s Ronnie Brown with a better arm. Not on those horrific overthrows. And even on the 44 yard TD to Brown,  that ball was a floaty duck that Brown had to adjust his route to go get - that was not remotely an accurate throw.

time will tell what happens to LJax. Again - I love watching him play, whatever position he’s playing. He’s an elite athlete, a sublime runner who makes quick decisions to tuck and run & he’s electric when he does. He’s arguably the best player on the field. None of what I’m saying is a slight to your mancrush. 

Maybe he develops into a great QB. Time will tell. Right now they need a new name for the position he’s playing. The Ravens clearly knew what they wanted to do with him & it’s working. Will it continue to work? Hard to say - as soon as 1 DC figured out the wildcat, that trend evaporated overnight except for the occasional trick play we see now. What happens when DCs figure out this Ravens attack? What happens when LJax takes that one bad hit? I’m as interested to see the LJax evolution as anyone.

What I saw last night was an inaccurate deep passer who lacked touch & looked to run 1st way too often. 

Maybe it was opponent specific. I was commenting on the game I was watching. You’re welcome to defend him. I’m entitled to opine about it. And there we are. 

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29 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I did. 2020 LJax has regressed, and he hardly threw the ball at all last night. 

I don't want to litigate this game endlessly but I thought the narrative on Lamar was that he was unable to pass successfully when required to by a game situation.

Last night, when the game situation required it, he was 5 of 5 for 85 yards and a TD. Not sure what more you could ask a passer to do...

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24 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

So, where's your cutoff line on when a player is a QB and when he's not? Is it a stat line? Eyeball test?

Also, appreciate it if you'd tone down the condescension when speaking to me. I read your prior posts and your logic confounds me.

You seemed to be the one condescending, friend.  I replied in kind. 

My logic is fine. Last night LJax had 2 passing attempts through most of the 1st half and you wanna say he was playing QB. I disagree. There ya go. All clear in the logic front. 

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1 minute ago, The_Man said:

Last night, when the game situation required it, he was 5 of 5 for 85 yards and a TD. Not sure what more you could ask a passer to do...

Well that was impressive. The quality of that TD pass was pretty bad though & it took a tremendous adjustment for a wide open Brown to change his route to go get it, so that’s one thing he could do better.

also hitting a wide open Mark Andrews for an easy touchdown would probably be another area of improvement for him. 

I mean, if we agree being accurate while passing the ball helps that is. 

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

This is the game topic for the game we watched last night. I was posting in that context. 

I understand some of you are more emotionally invested in LJax than I am, and that’s ok. Fanboy away.

Last night LJax hardly threw the ball. I question whether that schtick has longevity. I also question whether he can evolve as a passer when his legs slow up or when DCs start to figure out this new flavor of wildcat. And again, purely comparing numbers is disingenuous. 

But to watch last night’s game and claim LJax is playing “quarterback” is somewhat ludicrous. He’s Ronnie Brown with a better arm. Not on those horrific overthrows. And even on the 44 yard TD to Brown,  that ball was a floaty duck that Brown had to adjust his route to go get - that was not remotely an accurate throw.

time will tell what happens to LJax. Again - I love watching him play, whatever position he’s playing. He’s an elite athlete, a sublime runner who makes quick decisions to tuck and run & he’s electric when he does. He’s arguably the best player on the field. None of what I’m saying is a slight to your mancrush. 

Maybe he develops into a great QB. Time will tell. Right now they need a new name for the position he’s playing. The Ravens clearly knew what they wanted to do with him & it’s working. Will it continue to work? Hard to say - as soon as 1 DC figured out the wildcat, that trend evaporated overnight except for the occasional trick play we see now. What happens when DCs figure out this Ravens attack? What happens when LJax takes that one bad hit? I’m as interested to see the LJax evolution as anyone.

What I saw last night was an inaccurate deep passer who lacked touch & looked to run 1st way too often. 

Maybe it was opponent specific. I was commenting on the game I was watching. You’re welcome to defend him. I’m entitled to opine about it. And there we are. 

You yourself brought up the Vick 2006 comparison. It appears you’re backing away from that which is probably wise on your part. Saying he’s Ronnie Brown with a better arm...not so wise. But as you say you’re welcome to opine and pivot away as you wish. Probably your only move after The_Man dunked all over that comparison.

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3 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

 

Well that was impressive. The quality of that TD pass was pretty bad though & it took a tremendous adjustment for a wide open Brown to change his route to go get it, so that’s one thing he could do better.

also hitting a wide open Mark Andrews for an easy touchdown would probably be another area of improvement for him. 

I mean, if we agree being accurate while passing the ball helps that is. 

Tremendous adjustment lmao. He moved like 3 feet to his left. Lamar split the 2 closest defenders just about perfectly. Get out of here with that crap.

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4 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

Tremendous adjustment lmao. He moved like 3 feet to his left. Lamar split the 2 closest defenders just about perfectly. Get out of here with that crap.

You’re really gonna defend that throw? I know you have a love/hate relationship with Hollywood, but c’mon. He bailed out LJax on what shoulda been an easy pitch and catch. He had to make a sharp left turn to catch that. It’s right there on tape. 

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HE WAS ALREADY RUNNING LEFT. The ball was about exactly where it needed to be. Could have been thrown a little deeper but in that spot where the first down is paramount and the td secondary it was perfect. Sharp left turn?!? Do you drive a school bus? 
 

https://twitter.com/mysportsupdate/status/1338701984514396164?s=21

 

It’s right there to look at.

Edit- @Hot Sauce Guy

Edited by Cobbler1
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8 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

You yourself brought up the Vick 2006 comparison. It appears you’re backing away from that which is probably wise on your part. Saying he’s Ronnie Brown with a better arm...not so wise. But as you say you’re welcome to opine and pivot away as you wish. Probably your only move after The_Man dunked all over that comparison.

I brought it up because at the time people crapped all over Vick for his style of play, and LJax gets a pass on playing the same style. Arguably LJax is less of a QB and more runner than Vick. That’s why I made the comparison & asked the question. This 2020 version of LJax especially. Talking about QBR or what LJax did in 2019 for a guy who passed twice through most of the 1st half is hardly a dunk. 🙄

How many times can I say it: LJax is a great player. I’m just not convinced he’s a great QB. 

Whatever he does is entertaining & effective. Time will tell if he can become a better QB. I ain’t sayin he can’t. And again - maybe that’s on the Ravens for not utilizing him as such.

At some point the issue will be forced and we’ll all find out together. 

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I brought it up because at the time people crapped all over Vick for his style of play, and LJax gets a pass on playing the same style. Arguably LJax is less of a QB and more runner than Vick. That’s why I made the comparison & asked the question. This 2020 version of LJax especially. Talking about QBR or what LJax did in 2019 for a guy who passed twice through most of the 1st half is hardly a dunk. 🙄

How many times can I say it: LJax is a great player. I’m just not convinced he’s a great QB. 

Whatever he does is entertaining & effective. Time will tell if he can become a better QB. I ain’t sayin he can’t. And again - maybe that’s on the Ravens for not utilizing him as such.

At some point the issue will be forced and we’ll all find out together. 

He was referencing his stats this year. 

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1 minute ago, Cobbler1 said:

It’s right there to look at.

Edit- @Hot Sauce Guy

I’ve watched it a couple times. No one within a couple yards of Hollywood and he missed him by a couple yards. Hollywood had to go get it. 

Pass was just as accurate as the 1st half throw to Andrews. Only instead of missing long he missed wide. 

6 on the board, so I guess it didn’t matter, but it is what it is. That was not a great pass. 

at least it’s not collusion. 

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

 

 

I’ve watched it a couple times. No one within a couple yards of Hollywood and he missed him by a couple yards. Hollywood had to go get it. 

Pass was just as accurate as the 1st half throw to Andrews. Only instead of missing long he missed wide. 

6 on the board, so I guess it didn’t matter, but it is what it is. That was not a great pass. 

at least it’s not collusion. 

Just a terrible take. And a Rb btw would have ran for a the first down there. Lamar threw it 30 yards.

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Just now, Cobbler1 said:

He was referencing his stats this year. 

I thought he brought up his TD/Int stats from last year. 

Whatever. This isn’t a hill I need to die on. You see Steve Young, and I see a bigger Vick. 

the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. When the playoffs start it’ll be interesting to see if the Ravens throw more, or if DCs will continue to struggle to contain LJax so they won’t have to. 

 

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1 minute ago, Cobbler1 said:

And once again he throws the ball more than Vick did in the year you brought up. And he threw it better. So Michael Vick also not a Qb in 2006?

At the time that was the criticism. That he was a run-first guy who lacked accuracy and would never develop into a pocket passer when injuries forced that. 

when Vick came back with the Eagles he proved that to be false. So I wonder the same of LJax. I’m interested to find out. Are you? 

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3 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Just like the pass he threw to Mark Andrews when he only needed to throw it 25. ;) 

Again you’re pivoting off the play you initially brought up by trying to bring up the Andrews throw. We’re taking about the Hollywood play and your absurd take about his alleged TREMENDOUS adjustment to a TERRIBLE throw. You dodging to another play is a hallmark of you being wrong.

7 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

At the time that was the criticism. That he was a run-first guy who lacked accuracy and would never develop into a pocket passer when injuries forced that. 

when Vick came back with the Eagles he proved that to be false. So I wonder the same of LJax. I’m interested to find out. Are you? 

Very much so. Lamar being better than Vick at a much earlier age is a pretty good sign in that direction.

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4 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’ve watched it a couple times. No one within a couple yards of Hollywood and he missed him by a couple yards. Hollywood had to go get it. 

Pass was just as accurate as the 1st half throw to Andrews. Only instead of missing long he missed wide. 

6 on the board, so I guess it didn’t matter, but it is what it is. That was not a great pass. 

at least it’s not collusion. 

OK, I thought I was finished here but you pulled me back in with this one

Lamar threw the ball on a full run. If you freeze the play as Lamar releases the ball, Brown is at the 25, 5 yards beyond CLE #39 and the DB trailing Andrews. 39 is running down the right numbers, the other DB is running just inside the near hash. At that moment, if you could pick the exact spot that would split the two defenders, you would put it almost exactly between the numbers and the hash, but one step closer to the hash. This is precisely where Brown caught the ball. If he had continued to lead him up the numbers, he gives 39 a chance to get back in the play. Leading a guy between two defenders is not making someone "go get it"

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1 hour ago, Cobbler1 said:

HE WAS ALREADY RUNNING LEFT. The ball was about exactly where it needed to be. Could have been thrown a little deeper but in that spot where the first down is paramount and the td secondary it was perfect. Sharp left turn?!? Do you drive a school bus? 
 

https://twitter.com/mysportsupdate/status/1338701984514396164?s=21

 

It’s right there to look at.

Edit- @Hot Sauce Guy

That pass was perfectly placed. He led Brown to the inside of the field because there is a defender closing on him over the right shoulder (who likely wouldn't have got to him anyway, but by putting it on the left shoulder there was no way for the defender to get there). 

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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8 minutes ago, The_Man said:

OK, I thought I was finished here but you pulled me back in with this one

Lamar threw the ball on a full run. If you freeze the play as Lamar releases the ball, Brown is at the 25, 5 yards beyond CLE #39 and the DB trailing Andrews. 39 is running down the right numbers, the other DB is running just inside the near hash. At that moment, if you could pick the exact spot that would split the two defenders, you would put it almost exactly between the numbers and the hash, but one step closer to the hash. This is precisely where Brown caught the ball. If he had continued to lead him up the numbers, he gives 39 a chance to get back in the play. Leading a guy between two defenders is not making someone "go get it"

Ok, fair - i concede on this point & I stand corrected. 

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On 12/14/2020 at 9:00 PM, Cobbler1 said:

SVP is a GOD for those who don’t know. I’m a Terp like him and he’s been an amazing dude every time I’ve had the pleasure of interacting. A man of the people.

Nice to hear, I've become a fan since he's been doing his own show.  When was it, anyway?

Also, since you were the one dropping the knowledge in here these last two pages, maybe you would know.  What would've been the result had the Cleveland player who took the safety, instead have thrown an illegal forward pass there?

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7 hours ago, Rodrigo Duterte said:

Nice to hear, I've become a fan since he's been doing his own show.  When was it, anyway?

Also, since you were the one dropping the knowledge in here these last two pages, maybe you would know.  What would've been the result had the Cleveland player who took the safety, instead have thrown an illegal forward pass there?

Not sure when SVP got his own show. I’d assume that an illegal forward pass would be enforced from the spot and thus a safety as well.

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