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Christian Writer/Pastor Beth Moore On Trumpism (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

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Beth Moore is an influential and very popular Christian writer and pastor. This is not a new thing for her in general but this was more pointed than she's been in the past.

It's very much in line with a lot of Christian people I know. 

https://www.relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/beth-moores-condemnation-of-trumpism-is-a-watershed-moment/

Over the weekend, thousands of aggrieved individuals took to Washington D.C. for a “Stop the Steal” rally, accusing president-elect Joe Biden, vice-president elect Kamala Harris, their allies, the FBI, governors from both political parties, the Supreme Court and state electors across the country of working together to steal the election from President Donald Trump. It’s a nonsense allegation with zero basis in reality, which makes it all the more unsettling just how religious the rally became, thrusting Christian Nationalism into an ugly spotlight. In the middle of all this, author and preacher Beth Moore took to Twitter for the rare social media thread that seemed to actually matter, and flipped the narrative.

“I do not believe these are days for mincing words,” Moore tweeted. “I’m 63 1/2 years old and I have never seen anything in these United States of America I found more astonishingly seductive and dangerous to the saints of God than Trumpism. This Christian nationalism is not of God. Move back from it.”

Fellow leaders, we will be held responsible for remaining passive in this day of seduction to save our own skin while the saints we’ve been entrusted to serve are being seduced, manipulated, USED and stirred up into a lather of zeal devoid of the Holy Spirit for political gain.

And, God help us, we don’t turn from Trumpism to Bidenism. We do not worship flesh and blood. We do not place our faith in mortals. We are the church of the living God. We can’t sanctify idolatry by labeling a leader our Cyrus. We need no Cyrus. We have a king. His name is Jesus.
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sho nuff said:
I hope more echo her words and thoughts.
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I think more will. What's helpful about her position is it's firmly grounded in scripture. This isn't some off the wall wild idea she's come up with. 

If Christians don't like what she's saying, it's my opinion they have less a problem with her and more a problem with the bible. 

 
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Just weeks before the election I saw a post from a pro life person I know in a nutshell that said” you don’t have to like a candidate to vote for them”. And heard a homily without naming a candidate’s name saying that a candidate doesn’t need to have good character to vote for them. This election hasn’t damaged my faith in God as much as it has in some of my Christian friends. 

 
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I’m not a Christian and the last thing I would do is try to speak for any. But- do the ones that love Trump really worship him? I suppose a few do. But I would guess that most of his fans aren’t quite that fanatical. 

 
And for context as I know this isn't your world for many of you, Beth Moore is a big shot in Christian circles. I'd say she's the most influential woman in the Christian pastor/writer area. 

 
timschochet said:
I’m not a Christian and the last thing I would do is try to speak for any. But- do the ones that love Trump really worship him? I suppose a few do. But I would guess that most of his fans aren’t quite that fanatical. 
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None that I know. That all gets to how one defines "worship". I mean I guess some people "worship" Patrick Mahomes or the NFL. 

I think what she means with this is no human is to be worshipped. "And, God help us, we don’t turn from Trumpism to Bidenism. We do not worship flesh and blood. We do not place our faith in mortals. We are the church of the living God. We can’t sanctify idolatry by labeling a leader our Cyrus. We need no Cyrus. We have a king. His name is Jesus."

 
I wonder what the actual tipping point was, what finally drew the curtain back on this...and I don’t mean these questions as some sort of gotcha moment or accusatory “should’ve already been there” meaning.  Just genuinely curious what opened the eyes, what about the recent events caused the rejection

 
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That one guy said:
I wonder what the actual tipping point was, what finally drew the curtain back on this...and I don’t mean these questions as some sort of gotcha moment or accusatory “should’ve already been there” meaning.  Just genuinely curious what opened the eyes, what about the recent events caused the rejection
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For Moore?  No clue but I’d give nobody credit for supporting this for 4 years and then coming out after Trump has lost and then denouncing him.  It would smack of trying to get people to fall back in line behind the next GOP candidate.*

*No clue if that describes Moore - I know who she is and my wife has a few of her books but not sure if this has been her position for a while or just recent.

 
timschochet said:
I’m not a Christian and the last thing I would do is try to speak for any. But- do the ones that love Trump really worship him? I suppose a few do. But I would guess that most of his fans aren’t quite that fanatical. 
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There's a common understanding among the various Christian sects that says your actions and what you base your positions on are what you "worship".  So if everything you base your decisions on is based around money, you "worship" money.  That's where she's going here IMO.  We aren't talking about setting up altars, praying to him etc.  If your actions/decisions are rooted in anything other than Biblical teaching, you aren't worshiping God.  This is something I've been saying since this bizarre journey began in 2016 and I have been very fortunate that the churches I have been a part of have attempted to keep focus out of politics and on God.

I agree with Joe that this is how most Christians view the last four years, but I also think I was wrong in how many do.  Initially, I thought it was 90-95%....after observing the last four years, I'm down around the 60-65% range.

 
timschochet said:
I’m not a Christian and the last thing I would do is try to speak for any. But- do the ones that love Trump really worship him? I suppose a few do. But I would guess that most of his fans aren’t quite that fanatical. 
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Just to give you an example, my brother and his wife are Christians.  They're also Trumpers.  If you were to look on their Facebook page, both of their profile pics are Trump related; hers with a "Trump Girl" frame and his a picture of Trump hugging the flag.  Scrolling through their posts you'll mostly see anti-Democrat memes and links to conservative media articles.  Everyone once in a while you'll get something related to Jesus.  If you were to ask them, they'd tell you they worship Jesus and defend Trump.  I'd beg to differ.  

 
Joe Bryant said:
I think more will. What's helpful about her position is it's firmly grounded in scripture. This isn't some off the wall wild idea she's come up with. 

If Christians don't like what she's saying, it's my opinion they have less a problem with her and more a problem with the bible. 
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I don't disagree with your original post, but can you provide specific scripture references that support  this post above?

I was in a church filled with what I would loosely refer to as Trump Supporters.  I would say 50% of them loved Trump and found no criticism of him.  50% of them disliked him immensely but held their nose while supporting his Presidency because he wasn't "the other guy".   My wife and I left that church a little over three years ago after being active members for 25+ years because we felt the leadership (while well intentioned) were bringing in guest speakers that would do nothing more than stir the pot to lather up the church with hatred for the left and progressive side.  They gave the appearance of caring more about which political party you supported than if they could reach someone for Christ.

I don't think Christianity is dead in America, far from it. But Christian leadership is drawing a line in the sand, and far too many church leaders are are spending too much time picking a political side to plant their flag and leaving behind what they were originally called to do. 

Our new Pastor had a standard reply when someone asked him if he supported Trump;  "Your asking me if I voted for Trump, and your need to know, says more about you than it ever will about me." And he left it at that, and gave no additional response.  

 
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timschochet said:
I’m not a Christian and the last thing I would do is try to speak for any. But- do the ones that love Trump really worship him? I suppose a few do. But I would guess that most of his fans aren’t quite that fanatical. 
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I don't know about "worship"......but I think there's more than a few of his fans who feel is infallible; his deeming it truth makes it truth.

 
On The Rocks said:
I don't disagree with your original post, but can you provide specific scripture references that support  this post above?
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The bible is a big book and it can sometimes be overwhelming with all the different directives.

I think for me, that's why Matthew 22:34-36 is helpful in Jesus was asked about the most important commandment. 

A Christian believes Jesus was a human representation of God on Earth. So this is about as close as we can get to the "source" for an answer. 

The context is some highly respected religious leaders were questioning Jesus.

Matthew 22:34-36

34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees with his reply, they met together to question him again. 35 One of them, an expert in religious law, tried to trap him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”

37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

 
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And the specifically about worship Luke 4:8 is helpful. It's Jesus again talking:

 Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say,

‘You must worship the Lord your God
    and serve only him.’[c]”
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(The [c] is referencing the Scripture Jesus is talking about - Deuteronomy 6:13.)

Bottom line, what she is saying about we are not to worship Trump (or Biden) is entirely consistent with mainstream Christian thinking. 

 
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The Commish said:
There's a common understanding among the various Christian sects that says your actions and what you base your positions on are what you "worship".  So if everything you base your decisions on is based around money, you "worship" money.  That's where she's going here IMO.  We aren't talking about setting up altars, praying to him etc.  If your actions/decisions are rooted in anything other than Biblical teaching, you aren't worshiping God.  This is something I've been saying since this bizarre journey began in 2016 and I have been very fortunate that the churches I have been a part of have attempted to keep focus out of politics and on God.

I agree with Joe that this is how most Christians view the last four years, but I also think I was wrong in how many do.  Initially, I thought it was 90-95%....after observing the last four years, I'm down around the 60-65% range.
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Thanks; this post really helps me understand a bit better. 

 
The Commish said:
There's a common understanding among the various Christian sects that says your actions and what you base your positions on are what you "worship".  So if everything you base your decisions on is based around money, you "worship" money.  That's where she's going here IMO.  We aren't talking about setting up altars, praying to him etc.  If your actions/decisions are rooted in anything other than Biblical teaching, you aren't worshiping God.  This is something I've been saying since this bizarre journey began in 2016 and I have been very fortunate that the churches I have been a part of have attempted to keep focus out of politics and on God.

I agree with Joe that this is how most Christians view the last four years, but I also think I was wrong in how many do.  Initially, I thought it was 90-95%....after observing the last four years, I'm down around the 60-65% range.
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Agreed. I think this is what she's saying about "worship". Another Church Talk phrase you might hear is "making an idol of". Basically, it's anything that is put in front of of keeps one from God if that makes sense. 

 
I have a close friend that is very active in our Catholic parish and is a big Trump supporter.  After the election I asked him if it was any consolation that we will have a devout Catholic as President for the first time in 60 years and his response was that since Biden is pro-choice he cannot be considered a Catholic.  

 
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timschochet said:
I’m not a Christian and the last thing I would do is try to speak for any. But- do the ones that love Trump really worship him? I suppose a few do. But I would guess that most of his fans aren’t quite that fanatical. 
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I think that is pretty accurate.  The people who I know that like Trump are mostly "business types" small business owners who really are not politcal types of people at all in other areas.

 
Joe Bryant said:
The bible is a big book and it can sometimes be overwhelming with all the different directives.

I think for me, that's why Matthew 22:34-36 is helpful in Jesus was asked about the most important commandment. 

A Christian believes Jesus was a human representation of God on Earth. So this is about as close as we can get to the "source" for an answer. 

The context is some highly respected religious leaders were questioning Jesus.

Matthew 22:34-36

And the specifically about worship Luke 4:8 is helpful. It's Jesus again talking:

(The [c] is referencing the Scripture Jesus is talking about - Deuteronomy 6:13.)

Bottom line, what she is saying about we are not to worship Trump (or Biden) is entirely consistent with mainstream Christian thinking. 
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I think bottom line is that for the next few weeks Romans 13 covers everything.  Tear this page out of the bible and put the rest on the shelf for a bit.

  • Romans 13:1-7 which conveniently disappears from the bible when the "wrong guy" wins covers God' and a Biden's presidency.  (I confess that I have never been too fond of this passage - Hitler was God's servant for anyone? - and believe that Paul really just offering practical advise to try to keep Christians from following in the rebellious  Jewish footsteps with Roman authority, but that is what makes it relevant.)
  • Romans 13:8-10 covers the law.  All of it.
  • Romans 13:11-14 the time  to be decent in both what you do in public and what you do in private is now.  
 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
I think bottom line is that for the next few weeks Romans 13 covers everything.  Tear this page out of the bible and put the rest on the shelf for a bit.

  • Romans 13:1-7 which conveniently disappears from the bible when the "wrong guy" wins covers God' and a Biden's presidency.  (I confess that I have never been too fond of this passage - Hitler was God's servant for anyone? - and believe that Paul really just offering practical advise to try to keep Christians from following in the rebellious  Jewish footsteps with Roman authority, but that is what makes it relevant.)
  • Romans 13:8-10 covers the law.  All of it.
  • Romans 13:11-14 the time  to be decent in both what you do in public and what you do in private is now.  
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Yes. Romans is always good.

But on a bigger picture, this is a perfect example of what I've tried to talk about in the Healing and Move Forward thread.

Think about how this plays out.

I tell a Trump voter, "You need to follow Romans 13 and obey and submit to the leaders of the country."

The natural reaction will be, "Well isn't that convenient? Your side spent the last 5 years "Resisting" and doing everything they could to thwart President Trump. Your side spent the last five years doing the opposite of Romans 13. Now that your guy is in, I'm supposed "obey" and "submit" and do basically the opposite of what your side has been doing since 2015?"

My answer is, "Yes". 

Because someone has to be the bigger person and go first. Someone has to break the cycle. 

Is it fair to ask one side to not give back to the other side what they've been doing to them? Nope. This isn't fair. 

I'd ask, what's the alternative? 

They will say, "The alternative is to do exactly to their side what they did to my side. I'll resist and oppose and do exactly like they did."

I would then ask, "Aside from being the opposite of Romans 13, where do you think that will get us?"

I think we all know where that will get us.

So yes, I'd say Romans 13 is the right thing.

But I also think those people like me asking Trump voters to follow Romans have to understand it's asking them to treat the other side in a way that is opposite to how they feel they've been treated.

While I think it's the right thing to ask, I won't pretend it's not a big ask. And I'll ask it accordingly. 

 
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timschochet said:
I’m not a Christian and the last thing I would do is try to speak for any. But- do the ones that love Trump really worship him? I suppose a few do. But I would guess that most of his fans aren’t quite that fanatical. 
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No I don’t think people worship Trump as a god but there are many who think he’s especially anointed by God to perform near miraculous works on Earth and that he has been chosen by God for a very important mission. There’s a lot of religion that’s been tied into him. Just look at the My Pillow guy as the first example. Also you never know who is serious and who is a bot or troll but I’ve seen social media posts of people saying they trust Trump more than Jesus or even if Jesus told them to vote for Biden they wouldn’t turn on Trump.

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Yes. Romans is always good.

But on a bigger picture, this is a perfect example of what I've tried to talk about in the Healing and Move Forward thread.

Think about how this plays out.

I tell a Trump voter, "You need to follow Romans 13 and obey and submit to the leaders of the country."

The natural reaction will be, "Well isn't that convenient? Your side spent the last 5 years "Resisting" and doing everything they could to thwart President Trump. Your side spent the last five years doing the opposite of Romans 13. Now that your guy is in, I'm supposed "obey" and "submit" and do basically the opposite of what your side has been doing since 2015?"

My answer is, "Yes". 

Because someone has to be the bigger person and go first. Someone has to break the cycle. 

Is it fair to ask one side to not give back to the other side what they've been doing to them? Nope. This isn't fair. 

I'd ask, what's the alternative? 

They will say, "The alternative is to do exactly to their side what they did to my side. I'll resist and oppose and do exactly like they did."

I would then ask, "Aside from being the opposite of Romans 13, where do you think that will get us?"

I think we all know where that will get us.

So yes, I'd say Romans 13 is the right thing.

But I also think those people like me asking Trump voters to follow Romans is asking them to treat the other side in a way that is opposite to how they feel they've been treated. While I think it's the right thing to ask, I won't pretend it's not a big ask. And I'll ask it accordingly. 
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Understood.  I wouldn't tell anyone "You need to follow Romans 13 and obey and submit to the leaders of the country" but I might remind them that I needed to turn to Romans 13 to "get over" Trump at least enough to not spoil the friendships being elected four years ago.  That they themselves had reminded me repeatedly how God could do good work through even someone like Trump.  That you have to have faith that Biden is part of God's master plan even if you don't understand it.   This is for friends of course.  

But to be honest I think the last part speaks to your "big ask".   Speaks to "your side".  We simply cannot be accepting of terrible things, sorry of deplorable things in the dark because it gets us a few policy wins.   The "night is almost over" and everything we might do is going to be exposed to the light.  Which means as arrogant and condescending as this might be you have been asking "your side" to not behave like the "other side".  Your "big ask".    Practically because there is no longer the cloak of darkness, but more importantly because whether it is THE salvation or just A salvation it is the salvation that gets us a bit of healing. 

 
Also I think some may have allowed their strong faith in Trump as carrying some special blessing or being a special tool of God to allow them to forgive, overlook or even cheer on behavior that is typically considered in opposition to the way of which Christ asks his followers to live. Thats obviously a huge issue and the dangerous seduction to which one may refer.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Understood.  I wouldn't tell anyone "You need to follow Romans 13 and obey and submit to the leaders of the country" but I might remind them that I needed to turn to Romans 13 to "get over" Trump at least enough to not spoil the friendships being elected four years ago.  That they themselves had reminded me repeatedly how God could do good work through even someone like Trump.  That you have to have faith that Biden is part of God's master plan even if you don't understand it.   This is for friends of course.  
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Agreed. The "for friends" is so key too. This works tons better with people that know you better. I fear even here with an online written format, it's probably a poor idea for me to talk too much about it. 

 
On The Rocks said:
Our new Pastor had a standard reply when someone asked him if he supported Trump;  "Your asking me if I voted for Trump, and your need to know, says more about you than it ever will about me." And he left it at that, and gave no additional response. 
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I'd have a huge problem with this if that was the question and his answer.  Unless you meant "supported Trump" == "voted for Trump" then maybe I'd be ok with his answer.  But I'd want to know if the leader of my church supported the behaivour of Trump the last four years.  To imply that it isn't anybody's business is not a good look.  He (the pastor) is in a position of leadership and what he does and what he condones reflects on him, his church and his congregation - totally fair question to ask him.

 
Joe Bryant said:
I tell a Trump voter, "You need to follow Romans 13 and obey and submit to the leaders of the country."

The natural reaction will be....
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I fear one response you might get is that Biden won illegitimately and therefore these rules don't apply.  I'm not saying that argument is reasonable from either an election or biblical perspective, but how would you respond if that's what you hear? 

 
Captain Cranks said:
I fear one response you might get is that Biden won illegitimately and therefore these rules don't apply.  I'm not saying that argument is reasonable from either an election or biblical perspective, but how would you respond if that's what you hear? 
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I think I'd respond with something like, "I hear you. I felt like those objections were raised and they went through the right channels and the courts didn't agree there was a problem. And that our government that we're supposed to submit to says Biden is the new President."

I think that's where the empathy thing comes in. I think showing a little that I can see what they're saying goes a long ways. Doesn't mean I agree. 

And again, purely my opinion here. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I think that's where the empathy thing comes in. I think showing a little that I can see what they're saying goes a long ways. Doesn't mean I agree.
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It makes a huge difference.  On even the most vicious partisan message boards, the slightest offer of agreement or understanding completely changes the tone of the conversation. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Yes. Romans is always good.

But on a bigger picture, this is a perfect example of what I've tried to talk about in the Healing and Move Forward thread.

Think about how this plays out.

I tell a Trump voter, "You need to follow Romans 13 and obey and submit to the leaders of the country."

The natural reaction will be, "Well isn't that convenient? Your side spent the last 5 years "Resisting" and doing everything they could to thwart President Trump. Your side spent the last five years doing the opposite of Romans 13. Now that your guy is in, I'm supposed "obey" and "submit" and do basically the opposite of what your side has been doing since 2015?"

My answer is, "Yes". 

Because someone has to be the bigger person and go first. Someone has to break the cycle. 

Is it fair to ask one side to not give back to the other side what they've been doing to them? Nope. This isn't fair. 

I'd ask, what's the alternative? 

They will say, "The alternative is to do exactly to their side what they did to my side. I'll resist and oppose and do exactly like they did."

I would then ask, "Aside from being the opposite of Romans 13, where do you think that will get us?"

I think we all know where that will get us.

So yes, I'd say Romans 13 is the right thing.

But I also think those people like me asking Trump voters to follow Romans have to understand it's asking them to treat the other side in a way that is opposite to how they feel they've been treated.

While I think it's the right thing to ask, I won't pretend it's not a big ask. And I'll ask it accordingly. 
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This is the problem with "sides"  You asking them to do this is not the same as someone from the other side asking them to but they will treat it as such as a matter of convenience. There is zero indication that you are part of the other side. Voting opposite of them is not enough to categorize you as such. Thus round and round we go. Gross and lazy generalizations are what we rely on when we know the right thing isnt something we want to deal with or do. 

 
Captain Cranks said:
I fear one response you might get is that Biden won illegitimately and therefore these rules don't apply.  I'm not saying that argument is reasonable from either an election or biblical perspective, but how would you respond if that's what you hear? 
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Simple:  "so do you believe is God on control or not?"

 
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The Commish said:
This is the problem with "sides"  You asking them to do this is not the same as someone from the other side asking them to but they will treat it as such as a matter of convenience. There is zero indication that you are part of the other side. Voting opposite of them is not enough to categorize you as such. Thus round and round we go. Gross and lazy generalizations are what we rely on when we know the right thing isnt something we want to deal with or do. 
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Were you replying to what you bolded? If so, I''m not sure I understand then. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I think more will. What's helpful about her position is it's firmly grounded in scripture. This isn't some off the wall wild idea she's come up with. 

If Christians don't like what she's saying, it's my opinion they have less a problem with her and more a problem with the bible. 
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Well yeah they will...now.  Trump has been marginalized and repudiated pretty strongly.  I would assume most of the people (religious people) will act like they were never seduced by his cult of personality.  Especially as he gets further in the rear view mirror. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I think I'd respond with something like, "I hear you. I felt like those objections were raised and they went through the right channels and the courts didn't agree there was a problem. And that our government that we're supposed to submit to says Biden is the new President."

I think that's where the empathy thing comes in. I think showing a little that I can see what they're saying goes a long ways. Doesn't mean I agree. 

And again, purely my opinion here. 
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I am an empath, I truly am.  ENTP I think on Meyers Briggs.    And I might say something similar.  But it's mainly to avoid being marched down a rabbit hole of conspiracies that I frankly do not believe or want to waste another minute of my life on.  The truth is, the senior citizens in my church (and I am friends with them and truly respected them) went all in on Trumpism.  Some where wearing Maga hats during services.    I don't really empathize with them so much as feel sympathy that they were so easily seduced.  One lady spoke to me once about being called a Nazi in grade school in the 50s because she had a German sounding name.  Smart career woman, accountant.  And she was beating the Trump drum for 3 years.  I can't really empathize with her.  I feel sorry for her actually because I know in her heart she was a good person who got taken advantage of.  
 

 
Godsbrother said:
I have a close friend that is very active in our Catholic parish and is a big Trump supporter.  After the election I asked him if it was any consolation that we will have a devout Catholic as President for the first time in 60 years and his response was that since Biden is pro-choice he cannot be considered a Catholic.  
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In fairness to your friend, the catholic priests i directly learned from would agree. 

 
Zow said:
In fairness to your friend, the catholic priests i directly learned from would agree. 
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In the strict sense definition I suppose that is true but as a lifelong catholic my experience is that pretty much every Catholic I know bends and interprets the teachings of the Church to a certain degree. 

Birth control, homosexuality, premarital sex, stem cell research, death penalty, etc.  Many Catholic's views, including my friend's, do not align 100% with the Church.

 
Godsbrother said:
In the strict sense definition I suppose that is true but as a lifelong catholic my experience is that pretty much every Catholic I know bends and interprets the teachings of the Church to a certain degree. 

Birth control, homosexuality, premarital sex, stem cell research, death penalty, etc.  Many Catholic's views, including my friend's, do not align 100% with the Church.
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Sure. And the priests/monks I've had this conversation with also concede that the democratic platforms on fiscal and other social issues more align with Jesus's teachings. 

But they really care about the "killing of unborn babies" and, per what I was taught, it's blank and white in terms of dogma. 

 
Sea Duck said:
You can't serve two masters.

Christianity is slowly eroding away from the inside.
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Hopefully they all erode and stop the fairy tales and brain washing.   Christianty is eroding while Islam is gaining.   That is one step forward two steps back.   

 
Godsbrother said:
In the strict sense definition I suppose that is true but as a lifelong catholic my experience is that pretty much every Catholic I know bends and interprets the teachings of the Church to a certain degree. 

Birth control, homosexuality, premarital sex, stem cell research, death penalty, etc.  Many Catholic's views, including my friend's, do not align 100% with the Church.
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Also, church’s views change over time. Funny how that works. Crusades anyone?

 
That one guy said:
I wonder what the actual tipping point was, what finally drew the curtain back on this...and I don’t mean these questions as some sort of gotcha moment or accusatory “should’ve already been there” meaning.  Just genuinely curious what opened the eyes, what about the recent events caused the rejection
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The appointment of ACB.  They don’t need Trump anymore.  It was always purely transactional from the Christian lobby’s perspective.  

 
Godsbrother said:
I have a close friend that is very active in our Catholic parish and is a big Trump supporter.  After the election I asked him if it was any consolation that we will have a devout Catholic as President for the first time in 60 years and his response was that since Biden is pro-choice he cannot be considered a Catholic.  
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I'm Catholic (not a very good one) but there are a lot of things with the Catholic church I don't agree with either.  I'll let them judge me in the end.  

What I find ironic is how Trump targets the southern christians and how they worship him.  The only time I seen him at church was when he held up the bible in front of the Wash DC church during the riots.  

 
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D_House said:
The Wall Street Journal had a good piece on a congregation in Michigan and how its members worked through some of their political differences: Abortion, Guns, and Trump: A Church Group Tried to Navigate America’s Divisions
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This is very good. The curriculum/guide seems like it would be really interesting and beneficial for most churches IMO.

We actually did a similar sermon series in September/October called “How Would Jesus Vote?”. It was somewhat clickbait as far as series title goes as rather than advocate for individuals, parties, or even specific ways to believe on issues, it focused on what the Bible says leaders should look like, how those in the Church should view and treat each other in the church and what a Christian’s main focus should be “love God and love others as yourself”, and how Christians should treat those outside the church (see previous sentence).

Basically it boiled down to: our priority should always be to love and please God and love others. We can have different views on how to accomplish that politically, but if we start to create division in the church because of politics, we are doing something wrong and not loving God and loving others anymore as our priority.

Funnily enough, that message upset some people and some folks actually left. My heart hurts for them, but frankly, the Church is healthier if people who put politics before the Church do actually leave. If you’re not going to put loving God and loving people, even if those people don’t look like you or believe what you believe, ahead of what you believe politically, then I don’t want you as part of my church. Ephesians 4:1-16 makes it pretty clear that the church is to be one body united together. Verses 2 and 3 really sum it up:

“Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love. Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:2-3‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 
I see Pat Roberts has come out and said Trump lost the election and needs to move on. He also said Trump is delusional and lives in an alternate reality. It’s unfortunate it took him this long to admit it but it does seem like Trump is facing major pushback from the Christian world. Far too late imo but it’s well deserved.

 
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I still really don’t understand the strong religious support and defense Trump got. To the point where folks insisted he is such a great Christian. Beyond looking at his life’s actions, his own words reveal him not to meet one of the things that virtually all actual believing Catholics and Protestants agree is something Jesus and the Bible requires. Trump has straight up said multiple times that he has never asked for forgiveness of his sins and repented. I don’t know how any Christian leader can possibly hold Trump up as a Christian when his own words reveal that he has not done what is instructed by Jesus and the apostles.

Just something that has bothered me for a while. It’s one thing to make excuses for someone’s actions that clearly do not follow the words of Jesus as many of us fail. It’s another thing entirely to insist that someone is a Christian when their own mouth admits that they fall short of the requirements set by Jesus.

 
GroveDiesel said:
I still really don’t understand the strong religious support and defense Trump got. To the point where folks insisted he is such a great Christian. Beyond looking at his life’s actions, his own words reveal him not to meet one of the things that virtually all actual believing Catholics and Protestants agree is something Jesus and the Bible requires. Trump has straight up said multiple times that he has never asked for forgiveness of his sins and repented. I don’t know how any Christian leader can possibly hold Trump up as a Christian when his own words reveal that he has not done what is instructed by Jesus and the apostles.

Just something that has bothered me for a while. It’s one thing to make excuses for someone’s actions that clearly do not follow the words of Jesus as many of us fail. It’s another thing entirely to insist that someone is a Christian when their own mouth admits that they fall short of the requirements set by Jesus.
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It's most easily explained by the psychological phenomena of being unable to convince people they've been conned.  

 
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