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Anti-Trump conservatives - where do they land? (1 Viewer)

Tick

Tick

Footballguy
Prior to Trump, I voted mostly Republican, but not exclusively.  My line is somewhere between, say, Biden and Romney, but slightly closer to Romney.  However, without moving that line, I'm much closer to Biden than to Trump.  I'm strongly anti-Trump, and Biden's fine - an honorable man who will do his best for the country, even if I disagree on some things.  I've always told my kids that both sides are trying to do what they think is right to help the country, they just disagree on what's best... but I don't believe that be true of Trump.

So happens going forward?  90% of the Republican party became Trumpists, and I abhor that, so I can't consider voting for them until there's some major turnover.

Where does a Romney/Murkowski person go in 2022 and 2024, if they can't vote for McConnell/Gaetz/Loeffler people?  Do the Lincoln Project people try to carve out a middle party that includes both Biden and Romney, set between Bernie/AOC and Trump/QAnon?  I don't know if people can manage to recast themselves and realize they're closer to centrists over the old line than they are to the new party locations.

AOC---------------Biden-|-Romney---------------Trump to

AOC------------|--Biden--Romney--|------------Trump

Because in lieu of that, I guess I'm a centrist Democrat now.  And honestly, that bit at the top where I mentioned that I hadn't moved my line... that's no longer true.  I so dislike the Trumpists that I'm having trouble looking at anything they say objectively, and my natural reaction is to take the opposite side. I'm being pushed left.

 
I think they become, for lack of better words, an Independent. They'll vote for the candidate that best supports their belief system, regardless of Party.  I'd imagine they'd be consistent on that up and down the ballot....with maybe the only hesitiation being in House/Senate where they'd have to internally debate whether or not a vote for a distasteful candidate like Gaetz/Loeffler would be alright because it would protect their ideology better in the House/Senate.  

 
Tick said:
Prior to Trump, I voted mostly Republican, but not exclusively.  My line is somewhere between, say, Biden and Romney, but slightly closer to Romney.  However, without moving that line, I'm much closer to Biden than to Trump.  I'm strongly anti-Trump, and Biden's fine - an honorable man who will do his best for the country, even if I disagree on some things.  I've always told my kids that both sides are trying to do what they think is right to help the country, they just disagree on what's best... but I don't believe that be true of Trump.
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I almost could have written this about me.  You and I are coming from pretty similar starting points.

For me personally, I'm mostly checked out of partisan politics.  I voted for Biden, and I don't see myself supporting any Republicans any time soon.  But I really don't like the progressive wing of the Democratic party -- they don't want my support and I don't want to have anything to do with them.  So I don't really have a political home, but that's fine.  I'm at a point in my life where it doesn't really matter much who wins what office and I don't need politics to fill the role of team sports.

 
I had never voted for a Democrat prior to 2018. Between the Trump bootlicking and the confirmation of Kavanaugh, I was thoroughly disgusted with the Republicans. With all the idiocy they’ve been championing this year, it will be a long time before I vote for a Republican again.  :thumbdown:

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Tick said:
Prior to Trump, I voted mostly Republican, but not exclusively.  My line is somewhere between, say, Biden and Romney, but slightly closer to Romney.  However, without moving that line, I'm much closer to Biden than to Trump.  I'm strongly anti-Trump, and Biden's fine - an honorable man who will do his best for the country, even if I disagree on some things.  I've always told my kids that both sides are trying to do what they think is right to help the country, they just disagree on what's best... but I don't believe that be true of Trump.
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I almost could have written this about me.  You and I are coming from pretty similar starting points.

For me personally, I'm mostly checked out of partisan politics.  I voted for Biden, and I don't see myself supporting any Republicans any time soon.  But I really don't like the progressive wing of the Democratic party -- they don't want my support and I don't want to have anything to do with them.  So I don't really have a political home, but that's fine.  I'm at a point in my life where it doesn't really matter much who wins what office and I don't need politics to fill the role of team sports.
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These are me.  I voted for Biden for moral reasons, not policy reasons.  That said, I do happen to agree that a public option in healthcare is the most logical next step.  That's probably the one policy point I align with him on most.  The rest just seems to be fantasy nonsense between the "sides" that is of no interest to me.  I see myself posting a lot of "wait, that matters to you now" and "wait, that doesn't matter to you anymore" kinds of things moving forward.  This whole Hunter Biden thing has me laughing my butt off at the hypocrisy in the people here.

 
Personally, I think that the anti-Republican sentiment is overblown, and all the lost sheep will come back into the flock on January 21st when we start talking about fiscal responsibility again.

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
Huh. I thought the Anti Trump conservatives were sticking around and the question should be: Where do the Pro Trump Cons land?
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Where would you get such an idea? Trump enjoys record approval and support from Republicans, and his Republican detractors have been badgered to the point of either falling in lockstep, retiring, or leaving the party.

Pro-Trump 'conservatives' own the Republican party, and the figurative tent is getting smaller every day.

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
Huh. I thought the Anti Trump conservatives were sticking around and the question should be: Where do the Pro Trump Cons land?
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I see it this way too. I think Trump becomes far less relevant after the inauguration, and most Trumpers return to being Tea Party Republicans. 

Though obviously I (and most people )have been wrong about Trump and his followers before. 

 
Tick said:
So happens going forward?  90% of the Republican party became Trumpists, and I abhor that, so I can't consider voting for them until there's some major turnover.

Where does a Romney/Murkowski person go in 2022 and 2024, if they can't vote for McConnell/Gaetz/Loeffler people? ... Because in lieu of that, I guess I'm a centrist Democrat now ...  I so dislike [Trumpism] that I'm having trouble looking at anything [Trumpists] say objectively, and my natural reaction is to take the opposite side. I'm being pushed left.
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I identify a ton with your OP. I've made two nuanced edits to the excerpt from your OP above ... but otherwise, right on.

There are many, many perspectives from the furthest left portion of the Democratic party that I can't support -- but currently, the furthest right of the Democratic Party seem to be conservative enough for me. In theory, the leftmost of the Republicans fit into the same bucket, but right now they're not standing up to be counted.

 
We’ve seen two reactions in the last few weeks. Steve Schmidt announced he was joining the Democratic Party (I’m trying to contain my excitement).

Meanwhile, the No Label crew seem to be sniffing around Larry Hogan and maybe even Joe Lieberman (LOL) to build their third-party run. I think Amash is trying to drag the Libertarians into somewhat more respectability as well. 
 

I don’t think much changes on the national level. It’s not as if progressives like me enjoyed voting for Biden anymore than lifelong Republicans did. 

 
Tick said:
...., and Biden's fine - an honorable man who will do his best for the country....

Where does a Romney/Murkowski person go in 2022 and 2024, if they can't vote for McConnell/Gaetz/Loeffler people?  ....  I so dislike the Trumpists that I'm having trouble looking at anything they say objectively, and my natural reaction is to take the opposite side. I'm being pushed left.
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1) This is my personal take and no one has to agree with it - They are all grifters. Every last single one of them. If you asked me if Trump was a grifter, I'd say he was born and stole the doctor's wallet on the way out of the hospital. But same for Joe Biden and his fat Burisma money. All of them. Clintons, Bushes, Obamas, Gore, Romney, Cocaine Mitch, Pelosi, the ridiculous Obama wannabe in Newsom, Cuomo, Gaetz, AOC, Sanders, Warren, Buttigieg, Jim Jordan, every last single one of them.

If your political opinion takes you to a place to believe the DNC is secretly the Rebel Alliance and many loyal patriotic Bothans died to get you the plans to the Mar A Lago Death Star, then so be it. Here's a dirty secret that's actually truly filthy but not really a secret - Partisan **** measuring contests are just bread and circuses to make the average person forget that the real conflict is about socioeconomic class, not Team Red vs Team Blue. When you say you are being pushed left but don't denote the policies that drive you there, you sound just like another political tribalist neck deep in Orange Man Bad rationalization. But again, it's your free speech.

2) Trump gets GOP support because his barnstorming brings out voters in way no other politician has in American history.  The RNC wanted nothing to do with him, the problem is he's just too popular and came in at the exact right time with the exact right message in 2016. There is a legitimate down the ticket impact with Trump for the GOP. Every professional politician worries about their own reelection first, above all else.

https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2020#Districts_that_flipped_in_2020

This election cycle saw FOURTEEN HOR seats flip to the Republicans. That didn't happen on it's own.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-2020-gains-in-the-house-set-them-up-well-for-2022/

"Open-seat races have also been friendly to Republicans, despite the large number of GOP incumbents who retired or left office ahead of the 2020 election. The GOP had to defend 35 open seats compared to the Democrats’ 13, but of the 33 Republican-held open seats projected so far, only three have gone for the Democrats. And two of those Democratic wins were in North Carolina seats that the GOP had written off after a court-ordered redistricting made the districts heavily Democratic.

While the majority of the Republican caucus will still be men come 2021, there will be far more Republican women in Congress than there were this year. So far, it looks like at least 26 GOP women will be in the House next year, surpassing the record of 25 from the 109th Congress. That’s thanks in part to the record number of non-incumbent Republican women — 15 — who’ve won House contests. And it’s also because of how well Republican women did in tight races.

 
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Republicans are well positioned to take the House in 2022

"Although we don’t yet know the winners of some House races, we can already look ahead to the 2022 midterms and see a fairly straightforward path for the GOP to capture the House. Midterm elections historically go well for the party that’s not in the White House, and the out-of-power party is especially likely to do well in the House, since every seat is up for election (the Senate is a more complicated story).

Since the end of World War II, the presidential party has lost an average of 27 House seats in midterm elections, as the chart below shows. No matter how many seats Democrats end up with after 2020’s election — at this point, they will probably end up somewhere in the low 220s — a loss of that magnitude would easily be enough for Republicans to retake the House."

3) Given the noise Tulsi Gabbard is making of late, despite her saying she'd never run as an independent for POTUS in 2024, but it's starting to look that way now. So many non single issue conservatives who won't lean towards Trump will likely roll for Gabbard. Lots of Democrats will vote for Gabbard as well. I wouldn't call all her policy positions moderate, but she's got a ton going for her in terms of optics. If AOC does not get the DNC ticket, then The Squad, Sanders and Warren will back Gabbard. Risking another four years of Biden/Harris ( If Biden even live that long or survives what looks like dementia) only gives the Obama loyalists time to pick off The Squad one by one. Gabbard won't win but she'll split the DNC in half which means the GOP wins in 2024 but AOC can position herself for a run in 2028. If AOC doesn't get the 2024  ticket, she might have to wait another 12 years to get another real chance. Gabbard would run knowing she wouldn't win to gain back revenge on the Obama/Biden loyalists who blacklisted her and to position herself for as much high profile graft as she wants for the rest of her life. If Harris runs without Biden or Biden carries Harris again, Gabbard will crush her again in the debate cycle.

While I still believe Dan Crenshaw is the best GOP bet in 2024 if Trump is neutralized, it's clear the RNC is grooming Wesley Hunt. Like Nikki Haley, he has no shot in 2024, long term, those two will be the candidates that more moderate conservatives will support.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/GOP-congressional-candidate-in-Houston-delves-15320315.php

In 2024, if some conservatives don't want Trump,  they'll have to settle on Crewshaw or Gabbard or wait for Hunt or Haley.

 
Sea Duck said:
 Trump enjoys record approval and support from Republicans, and his Republican detractors have been badgered to the point of either falling in lockstep, retiring, or leaving the party.

Pro-Trump 'conservatives' own the Republican party, and the figurative tent is getting smaller every day.
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This. Trump still owns the GOP, like it or not.  Next GOP candidate runs through Trump.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I almost could have written this about me.  You and I are coming from pretty similar starting points.

For me personally, I'm mostly checked out of partisan politics.  I voted for Biden, and I don't see myself supporting any Republicans any time soon.  But I really don't like the progressive wing of the Democratic party -- they don't want my support and I don't want to have anything to do with them.  So I don't really have a political home, but that's fine.  I'm at a point in my life where it doesn't really matter much who wins what office and I don't need politics to fill the role of team sports.
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I can't refrain from asking:  Why don't you have a political home? 

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
Huh. I thought the Anti Trump conservatives were sticking around and the question should be: Where do the Pro Trump Cons land?
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I'm not sure why....current day evidence points to the opposite.  Hopefully it changes, but even if the narrative does, anyone who supported Trump and enabled him isn't getting my vote, ever.  However, if you are correct, the answer to your question is easy...they stay right where they are in the GOP.  They just don't have a vocal supporter in Trump to shout what they are thinking.  The GOP needs them...that much should be clear at this point.

 
Roy L Fewks said:
Personally, I think that the anti-Republican sentiment is overblown, and all the lost sheep will come back into the flock on January 21st when we start talking about fiscal responsibility again.
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I used to feel this way. Then when I come back to the flock, and victory for the flock is achieved, fiscal responsibility goes out the window.

ETA: I’ll identify independent but am not likely to vote R until significant trust is restored. I’ll also need confidence that the party has a platform. If the next four years are nothing but obstructionism with no common goals (e.g. healthcare, renewable energy) it’s going to be hard to believe words. I’m not going to identify ‘cavemen who fund the rich by increasing our deficit’ party.

 
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DaVinci said:
I had never voted for a Democrat prior to 2018. Between the Trump bootlicking and the confirmation of Kavanaugh, I was thoroughly disgusted with the Republicans. With all the idiocy they’ve been championing this year, it will be a long time before I vote for a Republican again.  :thumbdown:
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Same. 2018 was my first vote ever cast for a Democrat. 2020 was my first vote for a Democrat for President. I’d voted “R” top to bottom since GHW Bush in 92.

 
Tick said:
Prior to Trump, I voted mostly Republican, but not exclusively.  My line is somewhere between, say, Biden and Romney, but slightly closer to Romney.  However, without moving that line, I'm much closer to Biden than to Trump.  I'm strongly anti-Trump, and Biden's fine - an honorable man who will do his best for the country, even if I disagree on some things.  I've always told my kids that both sides are trying to do what they think is right to help the country, they just disagree on what's best... but I don't believe that be true of Trump.

So happens going forward?  90% of the Republican party became Trumpists, and I abhor that, so I can't consider voting for them until there's some major turnover.

Where does a Romney/Murkowski person go in 2022 and 2024, if they can't vote for McConnell/Gaetz/Loeffler people?  Do the Lincoln Project people try to carve out a middle party that includes both Biden and Romney, set between Bernie/AOC and Trump/QAnon?  I don't know if people can manage to recast themselves and realize they're closer to centrists over the old line than they are to the new party locations.

AOC---------------Biden-|-Romney---------------Trump to

AOC------------|--Biden--Romney--|------------Trump

Because in lieu of that, I guess I'm a centrist Democrat now.  And honestly, that bit at the top where I mentioned that I hadn't moved my line... that's no longer true.  I so dislike the Trumpists that I'm having trouble looking at anything they say objectively, and my natural reaction is to take the opposite side. I'm being pushed left.
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I am there right with you as well. I sense however there are considerably more proTrump Republicans and while I call myself an Independent I see myself voting for Democrats most often down the road. I just can’t see voting for any Trump enabler and think most of the Never  Trump Republicans will be primaried. I don’t see  a middle party carved out by the Lincoln project getting enough votes to get elected even though that is how I would vote. 

 
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Leroy Hoard said:
 Next GOP candidate runs through Trump.
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Disagree, next GOP candidate runs through Nikki Haley as Vice President.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Haley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Haley_(soldier)

https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/government/nikki-haley-for-president-2024-iowa-us-senate-ashley-hinson-20201022

"A South Carolina native, she was the first female governor of the Palmetto State after serving in the state Legislature. At the time, she was the youngest governor in the country. Haley was the second person of Indian descent to be elected as a governor and the first Asian American female to serve in a presidential cabinet.

She’s a favorite of billionaire Republican mega-donor Ronald Lauder, who honored her last year with an award at the World Jewish Congress, where he serves as president.

“You will not be able to rest because we expect even greater things from you,” Lauder told Haley during the ceremony, where he also called her “perhaps the most courageous woman in America today.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-convention-haley/haley-fuels-2024-presidential-speculation-with-republican-convention-speech-idUSKBN25L0C2

"(Reuters) - Former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley may have fired up speculation about a 2024 presidential bid on Monday, delivering a speech at the Republican National Convention that praised President Donald Trump while touting her own accomplishments and life story.

She noted her father wore a turban and her mother a sari. “I was a brown girl in a black and white world,” Haley said.

“My mom built a successful business. My dad taught 30 years at a historically Black college. And the people of South Carolina chose me as their first minority and first female governor.”

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article247071137.html

Oddsmakers see Nikki Haley, the former Republican governor of South Carolina and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, and Vice President Mike Pence as the most likely GOP candidates aside from Trump to take the White House in 2024.

Earlier this year, Haley topped a Washington Post list of women most likely to become the first female president. Her perceived odds to win the Republican candidacy are at +250, Action Rush shows. Other sites, such as OddsChecker.com, show her odds slightly worse than Pence.

“Haley brings wide appeal to various demographics in America,” Short said. “She has also worked as the United States’ ambassador to the United Nations, meaning her political standing on the international stage is far greater than most.”

 
******

If it's not Trump in 2024, it just has to be someone who can appeal to his base. If it's Biden/Harris in 2024, as a VP candidate, Haley destroys Harris. When you look at Haley's accomplishments and line it up to Harris' scandals and infidelity, the optics look ugly for the Biden ticket. Haley is a mother from immigrant parents, broke the glass ceiling in a very conservative state and has foreign policy experience. Her husband is military and was deployed into a war zone. ( Contrasts Doug Emhoff and how he'll make Harris bleed over all of DLA Piper's scandals) She has two children so she appeals as a mother. She's a minority but has the kind of aesthetics that will appeal to Caucasians ( i.e. the Grant Hill/Will Smith Effect) Her Q Rating is off the charts. She'll appeal to the minority vote but also the critical suburban women voters that are so coveted. The woke/cancel culture can't get within 500 feet of her.

Nikki Haley guarantees Kamala Harris as a total liability for the DNC. If Harris rides shotgun as VP again, Haley as a VP candidate destroys her. ( The RNC will just get Jamal Trulove to do the entire press circuit, talking about how Harris suppressed evidence to keep him in prison to protect her conviction rate as CA Attorney General)  If Harris gets the DNC ticket if Biden steps aside, she will be flanked by AOC's Progressive faction, then get crushed by Tulsi Gabbard as an independent in the debate cycle.

The narrative of "Orange Man Bad" has caused many out there and many in here to ignore the reality that the DNC is completely boned in 2022 and 2024. ( You could have up to three factions going to war internally, the AOC Squad/Progressives/Socialists/Gen Z brigade versus the Obama/Biden loyalists vs the Pelosi/Newsom/leftover Clinton crony money machine.)  Read the tea leaves, the HOR seats that flipped have a makeup of former military, women and minority Republicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Kim

https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west/politics/2020/11/24/la-habra-s-young-kim-breaks-barriers-in-election-2020

Young Kim of HOR CA-39 that flipped Red should really open eyes as a test case for modern GOP political strategy. It will simply be a scale up strategy for the RNC to support Haley accordingly.

Of course the current MSM won't talk about any of this, since they are the unpaid marketing arm of the DNC.  It's easier to sell "Orange Man Bad."

 
Mister CIA said:
I can't refrain from asking:  Why don't you have a political home? 
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If the Libertarian party were a real party, I would have a home there.  Until recently, there was room for people like me in the GOP, but that party has become pretty firmly anti-immigration, anti-trade, and anti-globalization in general.  It's also abandoned any pretense of being in favor of limited government or even just marginally smaller government.  As far as I can gather, the central tenet of the Republican party is that the libs must be owned at all costs.  I'm not sure there's really anything else there.

With regard to the Democrats, their progressive wing is just as firmly illiberal as any Trump Republican.  I get along with their neoliberal wing though -- hence my support for Biden.

 
Roy L Fewks said:
Personally, I think that the anti-Republican sentiment is overblown, and all the lost sheep will come back into the flock on January 21st when we start talking about fiscal responsibility again.
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Fiscal responsibility is now officially a punch line in the GOP.  I guess they can attempt to say "eh, we were just kidding" but I'm not sure many will bite.  Actions speak louder than words.

 
GordonGekko said:
******

If it's not Trump in 2024, it just has to be someone who can appeal to his base. If it's Biden/Harris in 2024, as a VP candidate, Haley destroys Harris. When you look at Haley's accomplishments and line it up to Harris' scandals and infidelity, the optics look ugly for the Biden ticket. Haley is a mother from immigrant parents, broke the glass ceiling in a very conservative state and has foreign policy experience. Her husband is military and was deployed into a war zone. ( Contrasts Doug Emhoff and how he'll make Harris bleed over all of DLA Piper's scandals) She has two children so she appeals as a mother. She's a minority but has the kind of aesthetics that will appeal to Caucasians ( i.e. the Grant Hill/Will Smith Effect) Her Q Rating is off the charts.
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The GOP just spent 4 years worshipping a thrice married admitted serial sexual assaulter who paid off porn stars while his wife was pregnant, largely because he ran an ugly anti-immigrant campaign and administration that constantly demonizes immigrants and because he was a businessman and not an experienced politician. 

Now you’re telling us GOP voters will love Haley because she’s an experienced politician who is the product of immigrants and that Harris’ infidelity, scandals, and inexperience  will turn turn them off, after they have been all in for Trump.  

You may be right, but you’ve painted an awful picture of GOP voters.  

 
Tick said:
Prior to Trump, I voted mostly Republican, but not exclusively.  My line is somewhere between, say, Biden and Romney, but slightly closer to Romney.  However, without moving that line, I'm much closer to Biden than to Trump.  I'm strongly anti-Trump, and Biden's fine - an honorable man who will do his best for the country, even if I disagree on some things.  I've always told my kids that both sides are trying to do what they think is right to help the country, they just disagree on what's best... but I don't believe that be true of Trump.

So happens going forward?  90% of the Republican party became Trumpists, and I abhor that, so I can't consider voting for them until there's some major turnover.

Where does a Romney/Murkowski person go in 2022 and 2024, if they can't vote for McConnell/Gaetz/Loeffler people?  Do the Lincoln Project people try to carve out a middle party that includes both Biden and Romney, set between Bernie/AOC and Trump/QAnon?  I don't know if people can manage to recast themselves and realize they're closer to centrists over the old line than they are to the new party locations.

AOC---------------Biden-|-Romney---------------Trump to

AOC------------|--Biden--Romney--|------------Trump

Because in lieu of that, I guess I'm a centrist Democrat now.  And honestly, that bit at the top where I mentioned that I hadn't moved my line... that's no longer true.  I so dislike the Trumpists that I'm having trouble looking at anything they say objectively, and my natural reaction is to take the opposite side. I'm being pushed left.
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I don't think this is accurate - I'm not sure the number but I just know from reading this thread and many like it that if you took the people that made up the GOP in 2012 that I don't think 90% of those people voted Trump.  I think it's more like 50-60% voted Trump and the other 30% are people Trump brought in.  That 30% are now waiting to see what the GOP will do - continue with Trump's version of the GOP or return to what they perceived it to be before. I know way too many people who are like IK, YF, Commish and yourself to think it's anywhere close to 90%.  Just my 2 cents.

 
Navin Johnson said:
Which ideologies specifically?  I find that most moderates are interchangeable with Republicans when it comes down to execution.  Mostly tribalism is what separates them.
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I can only speak for myself, but in no particular order:

fiscal responsibility
immigration
appropriate support for children

Those three things they have gone way off the rails...the children being the most tried and true of their positions that I have struggled with for a really long time.  The other two are just recent (though some here will call me gullible for the fiscal responsibility one...and to an extent they are correct).

 
The Commish said:
I can only speak for myself, but in no particular order:

fiscal responsibility
immigration
appropriate support for children

Those three things they have gone way off the rails...the children being the most tried and true of their positions that I have struggled with for a really long time.  The other two are just recent (though some here will call me gullible for the fiscal responsibility one...and to an extent they are correct).
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I think moderates and Republicans are pretty much the same when it comes to fiscal responsibility and immigration when you look at their actions.  Appropriate support for children would need to a bit more specific.

 
Navin Johnson said:
Which ideologies specifically?  I find that most moderates are interchangeable with Republicans when it comes down to execution.  Mostly tribalism is what separates them.
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Where your comparison falls short is the "with Republicans." With which "republicans"? The ones from the last 4 years who spiked the deficit 3T for no purpose other than gifting corporations/rich? And what exactly else does this party stand for? Suing against independence of states to hold elections? Sympathizing with Autocracies globally while distancing from historic allies? Lifting sanctions on russian oligarchs? Sitting on house bills instead of negotiating common goals, just to make sure the other side can be framed 'do nothing' in the next election cycle? This Republican party is not even in the same universe as our father's Republican party. This republican party has no ideology to execute.  

I consider myself a social liberal/fiscal conservative. I'm far more worried about spending, and in particular types of spending, than your average democrat. I care about health care, the poor, the disadvantaged, but only to the extent our generation is the one footing the bills for those causes. I don't believe in federal funding of many causes, even if those causes have merit. I'm generally opposed to my grandchildren footing the bill for causes. I'm ok with green energy pursuits, on the basis that it is an investment in our future and a national advantage that leaves us less reliant on regimes we may not wish to rely upon. Not as aggressively as the far left, however. 

 
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Navin Johnson said:
I think moderates and Republicans are pretty much the same when it comes to fiscal responsibility and immigration when you look at their actions.  Appropriate support for children would need to a bit more specific.
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I don't.  The GOP today and the gross negligence they allowed during the Trump admin is exactly the opposite of what I want to see.  And the rhetoric coming out of the them on immigration is disgusting as well.  The other part is probably for a different thread, but their position on abortion is stomachable IF and ONLY IF they do what is necessary to support and care for the children they are forcing to be born into a world where they aren't wanted.  It's been nothing but gross negligence on their part in this area for the better part of 25 years.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
If the Libertarian party were a real party, I would have a home there.  Until recently, there was room for people like me in the GOP, but that party has become pretty firmly anti-immigration, anti-trade, and anti-globalization in general.  It's also abandoned any pretense of being in favor of limited government or even just marginally smaller government.  As far as I can gather, the central tenet of the Republican party is that the libs must be owned at all costs.  I'm not sure there's really anything else there.

With regard to the Democrats, their progressive wing is just as firmly illiberal as any Trump Republican.  I get along with their neoliberal wing though -- hence my support for Biden.
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I'm probably close to this.  But as to where I land.... firmly nowhere near this GOP, it's leadership and its voices until every last one of them that propped this up are defeated and thrown onto the scrap-heap of the worst parts of our political history.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
I'm probably close to this.  But as to where I land.... firmly nowhere near this GOP, it's leadership and its voices until every last one of them that propped this up are defeated and thrown onto the scrap-heap of the worst parts of our political history.
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:goodposting:

I can't see myself voting anything "GOP" at anything but the local level and that's if/only if there isn't evidence that they fall in line with this flavor of the national GOP.

 
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tommyGunZ said:
The GOP just spent 4 years worshipping a thrice married admitted serial sexual assaulter who paid off porn stars while his wife was pregnant, largely because he ran an ugly anti-immigrant campaign and administration that constantly demonizes immigrants and because he was a businessman and not an experienced politician. 

Now you’re telling us GOP voters will love Haley because she’s an experienced politician who is the product of immigrants and that Harris’ infidelity, scandals, and inexperience  will turn turn them off, after they have been all in for Trump.  

You may be right, but you’ve painted an awful picture of GOP voters.  
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The purpose of the thread is to discuss conservative alternatives to Donald Trump in 2024.

Specifically as a Vice Presidential candidate, Nikki Haley can swing the entire 2024 POTUS election.

One of the reasons she can't be "cancelled" is because during Barack Obama's run for his 2nd term, he pushed for an intersectional coalition even though his advisers told him he was juggling dynamite while being lit on fire. He didn't care. If you observe Gavin Newsom, he's a stone cold wannabe Barack Obama. The mannerisms, the tone inflection, the cadence, the hand gestures, pretty much all of it, just operating at 85 percent less over everything. Newsom is the homeless man's version of Obama in terms of political appeal. But Obama is a wannabe Marcus Aurelius. His legacy mattered more than anything else, his Party be damned. So the long term fallout of the intersectional coalition is that the radical left were appeased and given a platform and treated as a functional power block in the DNC while all opposition to the coalition were castigated as racists and bigots.

Obama is the reason why there is a Progressive/Socialist faction in the DNC that can't be controlled nor cancelled. It wasn't enough to win reelection, he wanted to be celebrated like a Caesar. He is also the reason why the MSM can't go within 500 feet of Nikki Haley. Her narrative and optics are too clean. Attacking her openly would be tantamount to attacking the perception of the American relentless spirit which sequeways into self determination through democracy creating opportunity. Trying to hammer down on that is political suicide.

You've actually got nothing bad to say about Nikki Haley, you only can bring up some more ORANGE MAN BAD.

Say what you will about GOP voters, that's your free speech. However the only reason Nikki Haley will be so politically lethal in 2024 and AOC/The Squad will run roughshod over Biden/Harris is because Barack Obama's vanity completely destroyed the functionality of the DNC. What I've done is actually painted an awful picture of how Barack Obama cost the Democrats the 2024 POTUS election and likely the HOR in 2022.

Weak attempt on your part to hijack this thread into ORANGE MAN BAD.

Do you have an actual opinion on Nikki Haley and/or her policy and/or her potential as a 2024 contender? Do you have an actual opinion on any Republican not named Trump  ( the basis of the thread topic) who is a contender for 2024? Or do you just want to persist in a tone that says conservative voices and their subscriber dollars are just not welcome here?

 
GordonGekko said:
Do you have an actual opinion on Nikki Haley and/or her policy and/or her potential as a 2024 contender? Do you have an actual opinion on any Republican not named Trump  ( the basis of the thread topic) who is a contender for 2024? Or do you just want to persist in a tone that says conservative voices and their subscriber dollars are just not welcome here?
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Why does my disagreement with your opinion of the virtues GOP voters are seeking in their 2024 candidates become "conservative voices and their subscriber dollars are just not welcome here"?  You are more than welcome to cheerlead Nikki Haley and her positive attributes until your fingers break your keyboard, but that doesn't erase the fact that virtually all of the factors you suggested were advantageous were factors that GOP voters didn't give a #### about the last 4-5 years.  

 
Haley does exactly zero for me.  If her vision for the country is the same as her vision for the state she "ran" we're in trouble.  I say that as a citizen of her state while she was leading it.  I have never understood the love for Haley...still don't.  And now on top of that she was a rather large part of the Trump enablers, especially internationally...no thanks.

 
AAABatteries said:
I don't think this is accurate - I'm not sure the number but I just know from reading this thread and many like it that if you took the people that made up the GOP in 2012 that I don't think 90% of those people voted Trump.  I think it's more like 50-60% voted Trump and the other 30% are people Trump brought in.  That 30% are now waiting to see what the GOP will do - continue with Trump's version of the GOP or return to what they perceived it to be before. I know way too many people who are like IK, YF, Commish and yourself to think it's anywhere close to 90%.  Just my 2 cents.
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This might veer into an indirect attack, but FBG is largely a smart, educated crowd.  I’ve seen some voting data that says the more educated conservatives were more likely to vote against Trump. 

 
Tick said:
This might veer into an indirect attack, but FBG is largely a smart, educated crowd.  I’ve seen some voting data that says the more educated conservatives were more likely to vote against Trump. 
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I don’t think Trump voters are stupid by any means. It’s true that he did better among those without a college education. 
Like any successful populist, Trump attracted many people who were normally disinterested in politics (and likely will return to being disinterested when he goes away.) Being disinterested means that they are likely less informed than other voters and they seek simplistic, ill thought out solutions to complex problems. Which is why I am so anti-populist. 

 
Tick said:
This might veer into an indirect attack, but FBG is largely a smart, educated crowd.  I’ve seen some voting data that says the more educated conservatives were more likely to vote against Trump. 
Click to expand...
You mean other than the Shark Pool, right?   ;)  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
If the Libertarian party were a real party, I would have a home there.  Until recently, there was room for people like me in the GOP, but that party has become pretty firmly anti-immigration, anti-trade, and anti-globalization in general.  It's also abandoned any pretense of being in favor of limited government or even just marginally smaller government.  As far as I can gather, the central tenet of the Republican party is that the libs must be owned at all costs.  I'm not sure there's really anything else there.

With regard to the Democrats, their progressive wing is just as firmly illiberal as any Trump Republican.  I get along with their neoliberal wing though -- hence my support for Biden.
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Illiberal is the operative word here. I read an article today, stating quite correctly, in my view, that the new Trump Republicans would never cite Nietzsche, but that they look at humanity and power the same way that he did. They no longer search for any objective truth, and they believe that all that can be ascertained about truth is that which comes from individual perspectives and narratives, facts now be damned. Power is the ultimate goal for the right. The right has proven, by its own actions, that it wants power for the sake of power, and the means used to acquire and what ends they are acquired for don't matter - it is power for its own sake, opposition be damned. I know I'm no longer with the American Right because the American Right, former home of neoliberals and classical liberals, has lurched towards something else other than those two schools of thought. Rather than a rejection of truth and a collection of particulars, classical liberalism envisions differences and accommodations to people dissenting from one another about what universal truth is. It urges compromise and restraint by its very nature of limiting government reach. It realizes the limitations of government and does not aspire to utopia, but rather, republics where dissenting views are tolerated and procedures and bulwarks of freedom are envisioned so that each debate or contentious issue might have its day and carry with it the closest thing to capital T "Truth" in our governance.

So then, this author. The author accuses the illiberal wing of Trumpism as having that same Nietzshcean bent as the radical left academics given to relativism and theories of power and knowledge. But in admitting so, the author actually admits that the driving force behind the left all these years is precisely illiberal and has always been. That I, maybe like you, also find myself no longer with no political home is no accident. The left decided long ago philosophically that they would be beholden to relativism and value judgments made only and legitimized only by individual experience and particulars of pluralistic power. I rejected that long ago. Unfortunately, the right has adopted this fifty-seventy years later on the other side of the ideological prism. Thus, as the philosophy behind the movement is left behind, so for the most part are its adherents.

 
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rockaction said:
 The left decided long ago philosophically that they would be beholden to relativism and value judgments made only and legitimized only by individual experience and particulars of pluralistic power. 
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I have no idea what I’m doing awake but,,,

I agree with some of your analysis but strongly disagree with the determinism of your critique: The left didn’t decide anything; it’s not an entity that makes decisions. Neither is the right, Both are made up mostly of regular people who, at least in this country, don’t really disagree with each other all that much. They just choose to emphasize different values. 
Both left and right have always had elements attracted to relativism because winning is attractive. Sometimes populism takes over and these elements rise to the top. But their stay there is never permanent. 
You, my friend, find yourself without a party because you’re an anachronism. You seek a way of life that hasn’t existed since March of 1933, and there’s no way back to it: 

 
Tick said:
Prior to Trump, I voted mostly Republican, but not exclusively.  My line is somewhere between, say, Biden and Romney, but slightly closer to Romney.  However, without moving that line, I'm much closer to Biden than to Trump.  I'm strongly anti-Trump, and Biden's fine - an honorable man who will do his best for the country, even if I disagree on some things.  I've always told my kids that both sides are trying to do what they think is right to help the country, they just disagree on what's best... but I don't believe that be true of Trump.

So happens going forward?  90% of the Republican party became Trumpists, and I abhor that, so I can't consider voting for them until there's some major turnover.

Where does a Romney/Murkowski person go in 2022 and 2024, if they can't vote for McConnell/Gaetz/Loeffler people?  Do the Lincoln Project people try to carve out a middle party that includes both Biden and Romney, set between Bernie/AOC and Trump/QAnon?  I don't know if people can manage to recast themselves and realize they're closer to centrists over the old line than they are to the new party locations.

AOC---------------Biden-|-Romney---------------Trump to

AOC------------|--Biden--Romney--|------------Trump

Because in lieu of that, I guess I'm a centrist Democrat now.  And honestly, that bit at the top where I mentioned that I hadn't moved my line... that's no longer true.  I so dislike the Trumpists that I'm having trouble looking at anything they say objectively, and my natural reaction is to take the opposite side. I'm being pushed left.
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This. 
https://youtu.be/JIjenjANqAk
The Republican Party no longer has the integrity of John McCain he showed with the above comments.

 
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My anti-Trump conservative buddy really likes Tom Cotton.

The next 4 years is gonna be interesting. The GOP has to accept or reject Trumpism. Currently trumpism is the GOP and I’m not sure there’s enough “never trump” conservatives for the entire party to reject him. 

 
timschochet said:
I have no idea what I’m doing awake but,,,

I agree with some of your analysis but strongly disagree with the determinism of your critique: The left didn’t decide anything; it’s not an entity that makes decisions. Neither is the right, Both are made up mostly of regular people who, at least in this country, don’t really disagree with each other all that much. They just choose to emphasize different values. 
Both left and right have always had elements attracted to relativism because winning is attractive. Sometimes populism takes over and these elements rise to the top. But their stay there is never permanent. 
You, my friend, find yourself without a party because you’re an anachronism. You seek a way of life that hasn’t existed since March of 1933, and there’s no way back to it: 
Click to expand...
I disagree with both contentions you make after your three comma separation. There is no determinism in the critique. It's quite centered around the free will of individuals and their ability to aggregate and pick and choose which philosophy will animate policy. That the left did so with a Marxian bent seventy years ago and a Nietzschean one fifty years ago in academia is a product of a distinct synthesis of thought that would later manifest itself in policy concerns. That the right now adopts Nietzschean modes of acquiring power and ways of understanding truth is also a product of what Andrew Sullivan had seen as "Republican nihilism." There was an element of this in nineties conservative thought, though it was not primary nor center. It was however, adopted in 2016 and beyond by those who simply wanted power without truth because a true reckoning of circumstances meant no power for its former agenda.

As for being an anachronism, I will confess to wanting to overturn large parts of the New Deal. That would make me an anachronism. But my wishes are futile and we are a pluralistic and executive branch-based society right now. Whether that will change is up for debate. One expects that swings too far to one side or another would be tantamount to tectonic plates shifting. But I was plenty at home on the right as late as 2004, when influences like Allan Bloom and the neoconservatives still were the philosophical backbone of the party. I think of the scholars at the American Enterprise Institute and the Hoover Institution from 1986 (the year before The Closing Of The American Mind came out) as being formative in my thinking, and there was indeed a home there. It did not involve a switch in time or anything like that. If anything, the home the intellectual right provided allowed me to see The New Deal through a different skill set and to assess its benefits, namely its safety net, as well as its drawbacks, namely its modus operandi vis a vis raw power. 

 
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