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January 6th - what will happen?


Maik Jeaunz

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16 hours ago, jon_mx said:
17 hours ago, The Commish said:

Well....this is progress.  A few weeks back the % you used equated to 5 people so I'll take it.  You'll get there one day.

40 people is 0.1% of 40,000.  HTH.  

Right...progress :thumbup: 

ETA:  Even going to let pass the fact that this number of 40K has increased in the narrative of this thread by 3-4 fold....that's not lost on me either, but is generally meaningless other than the % number.

Edited by The Commish
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52 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Right...progress :thumbup: 

ETA:  Even going to let pass the fact that this number of 40K has increased in the narrative of this thread by 3-4 fold....that's not lost on me either, but is generally meaningless other than the % number.

Correct. Wasn't the announced attendance estimated at 10K?

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1 hour ago, Desert_Power said:

Correct. Wasn't the announced attendance estimated at 10K?

Not sure if there was an official announcement.  I had made comment in this thread several pages ago based on a group of friends saying they estimated 10-15K I believe.

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23 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Not sure if there was an official announcement.  I had made comment in this thread several pages ago based on a group of friends saying they estimated 10-15K I believe.

Yeah, 10K was mentioned in the AP article about Pence yesterday linked.

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On 3/1/2021 at 9:03 PM, jon_mx said:

How many were in this group?  Five, ten, maybe twenty?  The article does not say.  The fact they communicated with walkie talkies indicates a handful of people which woukd certainly be a minute fraction, as in less than 0.01 percent.  So 99.99% were in fact protestors.  So yes, the vast vast vast majority were there to protest.  

 

31 minutes ago, Desert_Power said:

Yeah, 10K was mentioned in the AP article about Pence yesterday linked.

Went back and just picked ONE of the comments from that time.  THEN it was .01% (or 5,10,20?)....and also that timeframe we were at the 10K level...now we're at .1% (400ish...but only because it was 40K).....as I said, progress :thumbup: 

Edited by The Commish
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42 minutes ago, The Commish said:

 

Went back and just picked ONE of the comments from that time.  THEN it was .01% (or 5,10,20?)....and also that timeframe we were at the 10K level...now we're at .1% (400ish...but only because it was 40K).....as I said, progress :thumbup: 

No we are not.  There are about 40 that were part of the Oath Keepers/Proud Boys.  You are so full of crap and petty.  

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16 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

No we are not.  There are about 40 that were part of the Oath Keepers/Proud Boys.  You are so full of crap and petty.  

405 have been arrested. I hope they get all of those who deserve to be arrested.

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13 hours ago, thriftyrocker said:

Why do you think they were ignored

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/01/07/figures-show-stark-difference-between-arrests-at-dc-black-lives-matter-protest-and-arrests-at-capitol-hill/?sh=6fc562325706

According to that article 14000 people have been arrested due to the 2020 racial justice protests. According to that article 289 people were arrested for racial justice protests on June 1, 2020 alone, not much different from the Jan 6 number (the article says 52 but it's grown to about 400).

Neither side deserves to play the victim card here. 

The BLM protest response by police was far more tepid.  Not even close.  Chewbacca guy (the Q-Anon Shaman) has been rotting in jail and will be there indefinitely.  There are no accounts of him committed violence or destroying anything.  Prosecutor Michael Sherwin is considering sedition charges against the Jan. 6th protestors who entered the Capitol.   The DC District Court of Appeals has already indicated that the DOJ is being overzealous in their charges.  I’m not saying either side deserves to play the victim card.  I’d just like to see the administering of justice be equal and not politicized.

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4 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

The BLM protest response by police was far more tepid.  Not even close.  Chewbacca guy (the Q-Anon Shaman) has been rotting in jail and will be there indefinitely.  There are no accounts of him committed violence or destroying anything.  Prosecutor Michael Sherwin is considering sedition charges against the Jan. 6th protestors who entered the Capitol.   The DC District Court of Appeals has already indicated that the DOJ is being overzealous in their charges.  I’m not saying either side deserves to play the victim card.  I’d just like to see the administering of justice be equal and not politicized.

Perhaps they just take it a bit more seriously when you take over the Senate chamber, disrupting our democracy and the entire line of succession to the US presidency is put in danger.

Let him rot.

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12 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

The BLM protest response by police was far more tepid.  Not even close.  Chewbacca guy (the Q-Anon Shaman) has been rotting in jail and will be there indefinitely.  There are no accounts of him committed violence or destroying anything.  Prosecutor Michael Sherwin is considering sedition charges against the Jan. 6th protestors who entered the Capitol.   The DC District Court of Appeals has already indicated that the DOJ is being overzealous in their charges.  I’m not saying either side deserves to play the victim card.  I’d just like to see the administering of justice be equal and not politicized.

I am pretty sure the bolded is what the BLM protests were about.

On the other hand Jan 6 was more about thousands of gullible people being misled and incited into insurrection by a petty leader that could not accept his defeat in an American election and sought to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power.

Edited by Godsbrother
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On 4/11/2021 at 9:24 AM, BladeRunner said:

Sure.  But when "you guys" (meaning: not necessarily you  but maybe you and people like you) keep quoting falsehoods to back your story up then what are we actually supposed to believe?

In reality, if someone lies to you then everything they say after that becomes suspect at best or another lie at worst.  This is common behavior for everyone in all conversations.

Did you not watch what happened with your own eyes?

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6 minutes ago, Dickies said:

Did you not watch what happened with your own eyes?

Maybe read the thread in it's entirety before piping in with a comment.   If you did, you would know exactly what we/I were talking about.  You need to know the context and the subject of our conversation(s) before making an informed decision.

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3 hours ago, ekbeats said:

The BLM protest response by police was far more tepid.  Not even close.  Chewbacca guy (the Q-Anon Shaman) has been rotting in jail and will be there indefinitely.  There are no accounts of him committed violence or destroying anything.  Prosecutor Michael Sherwin is considering sedition charges against the Jan. 6th protestors who entered the Capitol.   The DC District Court of Appeals has already indicated that the DOJ is being overzealous in their charges.  I’m not saying either side deserves to play the victim card.  I’d just like to see the administering of justice be equal and not politicized.

The jails are filled with people in similar situations. Ironically enough BLM protests are in part about this exact issue. 

The wheels of justice turn slowly.

The buffalo headgear guy gets very little sympathy from me but he should deserve timely justice. If he is truly being treated unfairly he’s free to seek damages.

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3 hours ago, Amused to Death said:

Perhaps they just take it a bit more seriously when you take over the Senate chamber, disrupting our democracy and the entire line of succession to the US presidency is put in danger.

Let him rot.

Pretty much what I said - it was politically motivated.

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3 hours ago, Amused to Death said:

405 have been arrested. I hope they get all of those who deserve to be arrested.

I was never talking about people who entered the Capitol and were charged.  But keep changing what I said to prove me wrong. 

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24 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

By the way, does the burning down of a police station count as an act of insurrection?  Or is it predicated on what the gripe is?

If they are trying to revolt against the government, yes.  And YES to the second question.  Many seem to want to ignore the "why" and just lump a bunch of people together who clearly have different motives behind their actions.  It appears that, to some, if one person there wasn't trying to start trouble, none of them were.  Oddly enough, the converse doesn't seem to hold true, so the problem isn't with discerning intent.  It seems to be mostly with the honesty in narrative.  

Edited by The Commish
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41 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

By the way, does the burning down of a police station count as an act of insurrection?  Or is it predicated on what the gripe is?

Without doing any legal research here (i.e. I have no idea how courts have interpreted the statute) - I am going to say no.

 

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection 

U.S. Code 

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

 

This is, by definition, a federal offense, not a state offense.  A local police stations does not represent the authority or even the laws of the United States.  (At best, a local police station represents the authority and laws of the state in which it is situated).

 

Its a stretch to go after the Capitol rioters, but there is at least an argument that they intended to interfere, and stop, the government from functioning - by storming a joint session of congress where they were conducting a constitutionally required act.  You don't have that same scenario when you attack a local police building.  (It violates lots of other laws, but not this specific law).

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38 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

Miriam Webster says otherwise:

Insurrection - an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government.

I don't think a police station qualifies as civil authority or established government, but it is there to enforce them.

The Capitol Building is totally different.

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16 minutes ago, Dickies said:
1 hour ago, ekbeats said:

Miriam Webster says otherwise:

Insurrection - an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government.

I don't think a police station qualifies as civil authority or established government, but it is there to enforce them.

The Capitol Building is totally different.

Right. This is why we don't use misspelled internet dictionaries to interpret federal laws.

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2 hours ago, Sea Duck said:

Right. This is why we don't use misspelled internet dictionaries to interpret federal laws.

Interesting.  Then why is the media constantly referring to Jan 6th as an insurrection if no one has been legally charged?

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13 minutes ago, ekbeats said:
3 hours ago, Sea Duck said:

Right. This is why we don't use misspelled internet dictionaries to interpret federal laws.

Interesting.  Then why is the media constantly referring to Jan 6th as an insurrection if no one has been legally charged?

Probably because so many prominent Republicans embraced the word. And once FoxNews got in on the act, then all the other media outlets were basically off the hook.

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4 hours ago, ekbeats said:

Interesting.  Then why is the media constantly referring to Jan 6th as an insurrection if no one has been legally charged?

I can think of one person who was charged

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9 hours ago, ekbeats said:

Interesting.  Then why is the media constantly referring to Jan 6th as an insurrection if no one has been legally charged?

Do you mean charged with insurrection or charged at all?

By the way.  Here's a list of all those charged and what they are charged with.  Off the cuff, I'd say you don't see insurrection here because the low hanging fruit is so plentiful that all those charges combined levy essentially the same penalty.  Sort of like if a person kills 3 people and they know they can get manslaughter on all three, they will forgo murder 1 on a particular one.

Edited by The Commish
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5 hours ago, The Commish said:

Do you mean charged with insurrection or charged at all?

By the way.  Here's a list of all those charged and what they are charged with.  Off the cuff, I'd say you don't see insurrection here because the low hanging fruit is so plentiful that all those charges combined levy essentially the same penalty.  Sort of like if a person kills 3 people and they know they can get manslaughter on all three, they will forgo murder 1 on a particular one.

They would have charged them with insurrection if they thought the charge would stick.  Insurrection, treason and sedition are such severe crimes that they are rarely if ever charged.  The whole point I’m trying to make is that the Jan. 6th riot and the BLM riots last summer were not treated equally by the press or the Justice Department, even though far more property damage and violence occurred with the BLM riots.  I get that the Trump aspect to this made the former incident more concerning from a Federal standpoint, and rightfully so.  If Trump weren’t out of office I would have supported impeachment.  But Liberals have to appreciate the average Conservative’s perspective that the BLM riots were handled with kid gloves compared to the heavy handed approach given to the Trump supporters.  

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7 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

 I get that the Trump aspect to this made the former incident more concerning from a Federal standpoint, and rightfully so. 

It wasn't the Trump aspect. It was that the rioting occured on federal property

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40 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

They would have charged them with insurrection if they thought the charge would stick.  Insurrection, treason and sedition are such severe crimes that they are rarely if ever charged.  The whole point I’m trying to make is that the Jan. 6th riot and the BLM riots last summer were not treated equally by the press or the Justice Department, even though far more property damage and violence occurred with the BLM riots.  I get that the Trump aspect to this made the former incident more concerning from a Federal standpoint, and rightfully so.  If Trump weren’t out of office I would have supported impeachment.  But Liberals have to appreciate the average Conservative’s perspective that the BLM riots were handled with kid gloves compared to the heavy handed approach given to the Trump supporters.  

the Jan 6 protest was based on a lie.  Pure and simple.  A lie that was obvious to anyone who was paying attention.  Trump has been lying to us for his whole political career - big things and small things.  Easily disprovable things.  He lied about crowd sizes, he lied about hurricane tracks, he lied about involvement with Ukraine, he lied about Russia, he lied about paying off porn stars.  He lied about the election.  He told us he would call foul before the election results were known.  This was all blatantly obvious.

At it's essence, the motivation for the summer riots and Jan 6 were completely different.  The former is for equal treatment from police, and a continuation of a series of race riots going back at least 60 years.  The latter was based on a lie ginned up as a blatant attempt to stay in power by someone for whom 80M people voted against.  further, the race riots were crimes against private properties (and ok, some police departments and federal buildings) - basically a giant national hissy fit.  Contrarily, the Jan 6 riot was an attack on a sitting congress performing a connotationally mandated duty - an attack on the US constitution itself.  Conservatives have to appreciate the average Liberals perspective that the riots were not any where near the same.

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40 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

They would have charged them with insurrection if they thought the charge would stick.  Insurrection, treason and sedition are such severe crimes that they are rarely if ever charged.  The whole point I’m trying to make is that the Jan. 6th riot and the BLM riots last summer were not treated equally by the press or the Justice Department, even though far more property damage and violence occurred with the BLM riots.  I get that the Trump aspect to this made the former incident more concerning from a Federal standpoint, and rightfully so.  If Trump weren’t out of office I would have supported impeachment.  But Liberals have to appreciate the average Conservative’s perspective that the BLM riots were handled with kid gloves compared to the heavy handed approach given to the Trump supporters.  

Three things here.  #1, I agree they were treated differently.  We had two different versions of the Justice Department and they couldn't be more differing in approach, so it stands to reason that they'd be treated differently, right?  NOTE:  Not making excuses, just pointing out the obvious and I'm not agreeing with one or disagreeing with one over the other.  #2.  I'm not confident the amount of damage/violence is the correct measuring stick.  In my view, it's zero tolerance.  If I had my druthers all the people participating in any of the riots would be brought up on charges and hopefully convicted.  #3.  If you're going to use our press as a measuring stick for how things are "treated" you're already doing it wrong and losing badly.  To have them part of any equation that is measuring "right/wrong" or "similar/not similar" is a fool's folly IMO.  

Personally, I don't think the protests from last summer and the protest on Jan 6 are close to comparable for a myriad of reasons, but the primary being, they stand on their own.  There is no need to compare them outside of political hackery to avoid reflection and acknowledgement by "the sides".  

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

There is no need to compare them outside of political hackery to avoid reflection and acknowledgement by "the sides".  

Quoted for truth.

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3 hours ago, The Commish said:

Three things here.  #1, I agree they were treated differently.  We had two different versions of the Justice Department and they couldn't be more differing in approach, so it stands to reason that they'd be treated differently, right? 

There were 2 weeks between Jan 6 and Jan 20 when leadership of the DoJ changed hands.  The tracking down and prosecution of the Jan 6 "Capitol stormers" started under Barr and the Trump DoJ.

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12 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

There were 2 weeks between Jan 6 and Jan 20 when leadership of the DoJ changed hands.  The tracking down and prosecution of the Jan 6 "Capitol stormers" started under Barr and the Trump DoJ.

Correct...and it's my understanding that it expanded after the start under Barr.  At least that's what we've been told.

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4 hours ago, ekbeats said:

The whole point I’m trying to make is that the Jan. 6th riot and the BLM riots last summer were not treated equally by the press or the Justice Department,

Maybe some the of the real lawyers can chime in here - but I suspect the biggest reason the DOJ was not more involved with the BLM protests/riots - those were state crimes, not federal crimes.

 

The Capitol Insurrection involved federal crimes - which are handled by DOJ.

 

As for the press, and publicity in general, I think it matters what you are protesting, in terms of how it is perceived in the press.  Protesting for civil rights will always be seen more positively than protesting for fraudulent election results (when there is no evidence to support the claim).

 

 

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

As for the press, and publicity in general, I think it matters what you are protesting, in terms of how it is perceived in the press.  Protesting for civil rights will always be seen more positively than protesting for fraudulent election results (when there is no evidence to support the claim).

Sure, maybe "press" as in media that still publish newspapers and magazines.  But online and on cable TV?  Nope, plenty of positivity around protesting (non-existent) fraud of election results.

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5 hours ago, the moops said:

It wasn't the Trump aspect. It was that the rioting occured on federal property

You had BLM rioting on the property of a Federal Courthouse in Portland.  They set fire to the place.  No arrests by the state and local cops.  And when Trump finally sent in the Feds people went apoplectic.  Cant have all these different law enforcement agencies acting so politically.  It’s how Federalism falls apart.

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4 hours ago, moleculo said:

the Jan 6 protest was based on a lie.  Pure and simple.  A lie that was obvious to anyone who was paying attention.  Trump has been lying to us for his whole political career - big things and small things.  Easily disprovable things.  He lied about crowd sizes, he lied about hurricane tracks, he lied about involvement with Ukraine, he lied about Russia, he lied about paying off porn stars.  He lied about the election.  He told us he would call foul before the election results were known.  This was all blatantly obvious.

At it's essence, the motivation for the summer riots and Jan 6 were completely different.  The former is for equal treatment from police, and a continuation of a series of race riots going back at least 60 years.  The latter was based on a lie ginned up as a blatant attempt to stay in power by someone for whom 80M people voted against.  further, the race riots were crimes against private properties (and ok, some police departments and federal buildings) - basically a giant national hissy fit.  Contrarily, the Jan 6 riot was an attack on a sitting congress performing a connotationally mandated duty - an attack on the US constitution itself.  Conservatives have to appreciate the average Liberals perspective that the riots were not any where near the same.

This is exactly the point I was making.  From a legal standpoint the motives of the rioters shouldn’t be taken into consideration, because one person’s rioter is another person’s freedom fighter.  You torch a building, you go to jail.  

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5 hours ago, ekbeats said:

 But Liberals have to appreciate the average Conservative’s perspective that the BLM riots were handled with kid gloves compared to the heavy handed approach given to the Trump supporters.  

I missed the rubber bullets, tear gas, and fire hoses being used on Jan 6th as opposed to seven months earlier in DC.  (Though to be fair I think these were used after multiple days of protests.)

ETA - Actually I think the fire hoses weren't used in DC.

Edited by Bottomfeeder Sports
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The most damning thing that occurred on January 6th, more damning than the idiot insurrection, was that afterwards the majority of House Republicans still chose to reject electoral votes from the contested states (AZ and PA) thus choosing to not certify the results of the election. Absolutely the most pathetic and most undemocratic display on a day that was historically full of unpatriotic and ill-informed stupidity.

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37 minutes ago, kwille said:

The most damning thing that occurred on January 6th, more damning than the idiot insurrection, was that afterwards the majority of House Republicans still chose to reject electoral votes from the contested states (AZ and PA) thus choosing to not certify the results of the election. Absolutely the most pathetic and most undemocratic display on a day that was historically full of unpatriotic and ill-informed stupidity.

I see your votes to overturn and raise you a president who praised and supported the rioters.

"You are loved"

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Founding member of Oath Keepers set to enter first guilty plea in Jan. 6 Capitol breach

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Schaffer has been jailed since he turned himself in to FBI agents in Indianapolis on Jan. 18 after being photographed inside the Capitol wearing a hat that said “Oath Keepers Lifetime Member.

He was initially charged with six crimes, including engaging in an act of physical violence and targeting police with bear spray.

 

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On 4/13/2021 at 4:46 PM, kwille said:

The most damning thing that occurred on January 6th, more damning than the idiot insurrection, was that afterwards the majority of House Republicans still chose to reject electoral votes from the contested states (AZ and PA) thus choosing to not certify the results of the election. Absolutely the most pathetic and most undemocratic display on a day that was historically full of unpatriotic and ill-informed stupidity.

According to Sydney Powell, a majority of House Republicans are not reasonable people. 

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33 minutes ago, massraider said:

Founding member of Oath Keepers set to enter first guilty plea in Jan. 6 Capitol breach

Quote

Schaffer has been jailed since he turned himself in to FBI agents in Indianapolis on Jan. 18 after being photographed inside the Capitol wearing a hat that said “Oath Keepers Lifetime Member.

He was initially charged with six crimes, including engaging in an act of physical violence and targeting police with bear spray.

 

Damn!!  How DEEP does this STATE run?!?!?!?!

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