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January 6th - what will happen?


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9 minutes ago, Death Bytes said:

I acknowledge that there is potential that my assumption is false, but I believe that potential to be very unlikely. People were climbing over fences so high that one died falling over it. People were using scaffolding to get to windows so high that two people fell from them to their deaths. They were breaking in doors. They were breaking in windows. Umm... yeah.... if it was a black crowd, more than one bullet would have been fired. 

Based on what? How many BLM protesters have been shot?  Ths is nothing like any of the incidences where police have shot black people recently.

 I mean if you want to continue to divide things and make this more than it is then by all means carry on. But there is zero evidence that if these people were black more of them would have been shot. It's a false narrative and it's been propagated by a whole bunch of black celebrities on Twitter already and quite frankly it is really really not a good idea right now.

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The President told MAGA to do it MAGA said they were going to do it MAGA filmed themselves doing it Afterwards, MAGA bragged about it Clearly, it was ANTIFA’s fault

One is an ugly, decrepit wasteland ruled by an assortment of villains hoping to impose their will on peace-loving people everywhere who otherwise just want to be left alone to tend to their gardens.

So they're finally following the CDC guidelines for the pandemic?

1 minute ago, Jayrod said:

Based on what? How many BLM protesters have been shot?  Ths is nothing like any of the incidences where police have shot black people recently.

 I mean if you want to continue to divide things and make this more than it is then by all means carry on. But there is zero evidence that if these people were black more of them would have been shot. It's a false narrative and it's been propagated by a whole bunch of black celebrities on Twitter already and quite frankly it is really really not a good idea right now.

I guess 250 years of American history is now "zero evidence."

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9 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

Capitol Police embraced the entitled protestors compared to people of color, but I’m grateful there wasn’t a more violent response. Though—appears the guard was effectively let down for them to begin with. This was all so predictable.

In retrospect, one person shot is s huge win, because I wouldn’t have faulted police at all had they opened fire when the doors to the Capitol were breached. I’m glad they didn’t. But I wouldn’t have faulted a lethal use of force once the Capitol of the United States in full session was breached. 

In fact, I’d be all for a full time strike force being stationed there and the expectation moving forward that you trespass at your peril. 

 

Oh, I think the bolded is an absolute necessity for the foreseeable future.

I worry that this "protest" was just the prelude to something much worse. A bunch of (mostly) goofballs got into the building, used makeshift devices to breach windows and doors and took some stupid pictures. Because of the nature of the way things went down, the government had plenty of time to evacuate. 

I worry that next time, its gonna be 20 well-trained guys with a SWAT battering ram through a side door (like the one that woman got shot at)  while another "protest" takes up most of the security attention up front.  

Bottom line....security was SUPER weak (and maybe even accommodating) and now everyone knows it.  I am concerned that this was basically just a probe attack to finalize plans for something far more organized and serious.

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5 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I'd say the odds would be pretty low.  Trump does not care about these people, and these people have nothing to offer Trump.

 

Aside from that, I don't know the form that a Pardon has to take, but I would think, at a minimum it has to name the person being pardoned, and the specific conduct that is being pardoned.  And, I doubt Trump will have access to either in the next two-weeks.

Carter pardoned anyone who went to Canada during Vietnam. I don’t think the outer limits of the pardon power is really that well defined. 

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

I find it incredibly tragic. People are wired differently. Some seek cults, which is what appears to be what happened here. In her mind, she was perfectly reasonable and loyal. It’s the cult leaders that generally deserve the blame. Often once recruited and brainwashed, cult members don’t have access to truth, and are subject to group think. There was probably a sense of safety in those numbers.

The cult leaders should be prosecuted.

The cult leaders are a bunch of memelord  incels on 4chan.  Good luck.

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2 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Based on what? How many BLM protesters have been shot?  Ths is nothing like any of the incidences where police have shot black people recently.

 I mean if you want to continue to divide things and make this more than it is then by all means carry on. But there is zero evidence that if these people were black more of them would have been shot. It's a false narrative and it's been propagated by a whole bunch of black celebrities on Twitter already and quite frankly it is really really not a good idea right now.

If you wanted to make a racial comparison, the better one is that the capital police would have been out in much much larger numbers and in riot gear if it was a BLM protest against the election. 

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Just now, culdeus said:

The cult leaders are a bunch of memelord  incels on 4chan.  Good luck.

And such where how do you define who is a cult leader and who’s just another brainwashed cult member? I agree these people aren’t going to be prosecuted unless the government decides to treat it like ISIS. They won’t and I’m not even sure they should.

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3 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Based on what? How many BLM protesters have been shot?  Ths is nothing like any of the incidences where police have shot black people recently.

 I mean if you want to continue to divide things and make this more than it is then by all means carry on. But there is zero evidence that if these people were black more of them would have been shot. It's a false narrative and it's been propagated by a whole bunch of black celebrities on Twitter already and quite frankly it is really really not a good idea right now.

I completely agree that yesterday was nothing like any of the incidences where police have shot black people recently. IT WAS WORSE!!!! They attacked and breached the largest of our three branches of government, and only 1 bullet was fired at them. That's an incredibly tame response. 

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2 minutes ago, TLEF316 said:

 

Oh, I think the bolded is an absolute necessity for the foreseeable future.

I worry that this "protest" was just the prelude to something much worse. A bunch of (mostly) goofballs got into the building, used makeshift devices to breach windows and doors and took some stupid pictures. Because of the nature of the way things went down, the government had plenty of time to evacuate. 

I worry that next time, its gonna be 20 well-trained guys with a SWAT battering ram through a side door (like the one that woman got shot at)  while another "protest" takes up most of the security attention up front.  

Bottom line....security was SUPER weak (and maybe even accommodating) and now everyone knows it.  I am concerned that this was basically just a probe attack to finalize plans for something far more organized and serious.

History shows 1 failed coup attempt is often not the end of it. The leaders usually come back and try again.

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48 minutes ago, Death Bytes said:

I'm extremely surprised more lethal force wasn't used.

Maybe the quick triggers will usually see in these situations were so few this time because the crowd was overwhelmingly white. Just sayin'. 

Link to police shooting an unarmed rioter this summer? I vaguely recall it might have happened in Indy, but think there was a car involved there, so maybe not. 

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1 hour ago, GoBirds said:

This is sad to see. In other recent mostly peaceful protest I don’t recall lethal force and police have stood down while building burn to the ground. 

It’s the US Capitol.  This isn’t remotely comparable to burning down the neighborhood Bed Bath & Beyond.  Unreal.

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7 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

If you wanted to make a racial comparison, the better one is that the capital police would have been out in much much larger numbers and in riot gear if it was a BLM protest against the election. 

Right. Because of track record. BLM is known to go after statues and monuments. It is kind of their thing. 

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

It’s the US Capitol.  This isn’t remotely comparable to burning down the neighborhood Bed Bath & Beyond.  Unreal.

Yeah, I have zero issues with the woman being shot. They were warned. Thay were trying to get into an area that had people and no escape. Sorry you try to come through you need to be put down.

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27 minutes ago, JAA said:

Im not defending the rioters.  Would it change your mind if the rioters felt they had a legitimate case?  You are on record saying you dont think they do.  Does it matter if they think they do?

No - eff your feelings.

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26 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Listening to the Lawfare podcast - they brought up an interesting point I didn’t think about. 
 

What are the odds Trump issues a blanket pardon for everyone involved yesterday? Pretty good, I reckon. 

Why would he pardon Antifa?  (I mean, sure -- he invited Antifa to Washington, spoke to them in person, told them he loved them and told them to go the Capitol, but...)

Also, I think he has to issue pardons by name.

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12 minutes ago, Death Bytes said:

I completely agree that yesterday was nothing like any of the incidences where police have shot black people recently. IT WAS WORSE!!!! They attacked and breached the largest of our three branches of government, and only 1 bullet was fired at them. That's an incredibly tame response. 

Is the bolded confirmed?  I know only one person was killed by gunfire, but do we know that only one was struck and only one shot was fired?  Not challenging; genuinely curious.

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5 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Right. Because of track record. BLM is known to go after statues and monuments. It is kind of their thing. 

Yeah for sure. I’m still surprised how weakly protected the capital for such a big event where the VP and entire Legislative branch was while a protest of thousands gathered outside. These protestors stents known for destroying statues but the Proud Boys have been involved in plenty of physical altercations and it’s fairly common to see Trump protestors heavily armed.

 

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2 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

Is the bolded confirmed?  I know only one person was killed by gunfire, but do we know that only one was struck and only one shot was fired?  Not challenging; genuinely curious.

No. There appears to have been shots fired rom the outside at the building 

https://twitter.com/lacaldwelldc/status/1347170056199954433?s=21

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5 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:
57 minutes ago, Death Bytes said:

I'm extremely surprised more lethal force wasn't used.

Maybe the quick triggers will usually see in these situations were so few this time because the crowd was overwhelmingly white. Just sayin'. 

Link to police shooting an unarmed rioter this summer? I vaguely recall it might have happened in Indy, but think there was a car involved there, so maybe not. 

The situation was an attack against the US government. This is what it compares to: --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_U.S._diplomatic_facilities

What happened yesterday was not a riot of civil unrest attacking a Panera Bread. Stop comparing it to that.

We know historically that when US government is attacked, it doesn't hesitate to fire back... except for yesterday. 

 

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1 hour ago, whoknew said:

I don’t agree with your characterization but I totally agree that it’s a tragedy she was killed. I hope there is a full investigation to see why lethal force was used on her. 
 

There should be an investigation into everything the Capitol police did yesterday. 

Like why more people weren't shot?

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8 minutes ago, TripleThreat said:

I love the cigarette butt photo in there with the "btw smoking is not allowed in the capitol building." Some good humor mixed in there. I think she might be joking about the italian doors too, but know nothing about her to know how dry her sense of humor is. 

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3 minutes ago, culdeus said:

I buy the theory they used guns to try and break the glass.  By they I mean Trump supporters.

Gotcha, you guys were saying shots from the police 

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4 minutes ago, Death Bytes said:

The situation was an attack against the US government. This is what it compares to: --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_U.S._diplomatic_facilities

What happened yesterday was not a riot of civil unrest attacking a Panera Bread. Stop comparing it to that.

We know historically that when US government is attacked, it doesn't hesitate to fire back... except for yesterday. 

 

So no link? Cool. 

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QUOTE OF THE DAY- FROM GENERAL WINFIELD SCOTT- MARCH 1861

“I have said that any man who attempted by force or unparliamentary disorder to obstruct or interfere with the lawful count of the electoral vote should be lashed to the muzzle of a twelve-pounder gun and fired out of a window of the Capitol. I would manure the hills of Arlington with fragments of his body, were he a Senator or a chief magistrate of my native state! It is my duty to suppress insurrection–my duty!”

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Yeah for sure. I’m still surprised how weakly protected the capital for such a big event where the VP and entire Legislative branch was while a protest of thousands gathered outside. These protestors stents known for destroying statues but the Proud Boys have been involved in plenty of physical altercations and it’s fairly common to see Trump protestors heavily armed.

 

This is what struck me this morning. For a group that could be assumed to be "gun nuts", I haven't heard a report of anyone actually being armed.

Which kind of makes this the worst coup/revolution attempt ever. And the labeling of it as such a bit over the top. 

But it was a riot. And it was incited by Trump. And I hope a whole lot of people go to jail.

And I REALLY hope this gets Trump out of the Republican party. Without this there's a greater chance he sticks around for 2024. Now, he'll be done dirty like the Dems did to Sanders - hopefully.

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2 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

This is what struck me this morning. For a group that could be assumed to be "gun nuts", I haven't heard a report of anyone actually being armed.

This may not be widely known - but DC has very strict gun laws. 

Not surprising at all that most left their guns at home, rather than face the stiff penalties in DC.

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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

This is what struck me this morning. For a group that could be assumed to be "gun nuts", I haven't heard a report of anyone actually being armed.

Which kind of makes this the worst coup/revolution attempt ever. And the labeling of it as such a bit over the top. 

But it was a riot. And it was incited by Trump. And I hope a whole lot of people go to jail.

And I REALLY hope this gets Trump out of the Republican party. Without this there's a greater chance he sticks around for 2024. Now, he'll be done dirty like the Dems did to Sanders - hopefully.

I haven't heard a lot about the group being armed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I've heard they weren't either.  The reporting on that subject has been largely, surprisingly, silent.

There are pictures of multiple shots fired into a door, that at first glance seem like they were shots fired to get in, rather than in defense, but that's a "way too early to know" take.

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2 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

This is what struck me this morning. For a group that could be assumed to be "gun nuts", I haven't heard a report of anyone actually being armed.

Which kind of makes this the worst coup/revolution attempt ever. And the labeling of it as such a bit over the top. 

But it was a riot. And it was incited by Trump. And I hope a whole lot of people go to jail.

And I REALLY hope this gets Trump out of the Republican party. Without this there's a greater chance he sticks around for 2024. Now, he'll be done dirty like the Dems did to Sanders - hopefully.

There’s a lot of LARPing going on. They are playing as revolutionaries right now. I think the worry is that eventually some of the actors become hardened or are infiltrated by real commando types like the ones arrested in Michigan for the kidnapping plan. There were images of bullet holes in the capital building from the outside so someone fired shots at the building. Also there was the bombs and the man with zip ties on the Senate floor so it seems like at least a few people there were hoping for a more serious escalation.

Just such a clusterf- of idiocy.

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28 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

It’s the US Capitol.  This isn’t remotely comparable to burning down the neighborhood Bed Bath & Beyond.  Unreal.

BLM extremists took over a police station and one full city block for a month.  3 black children died because they wouldnt let police in.  

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2 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

This may not be widely known - but DC has very strict gun laws. 

Not surprising at all that most left their guns at home, rather than face the stiff penalties in DC.

Right but he’s saying if they actually came there with the intent of sparking a Civil War or taking over the US Govt, they wouldn’t be worried about a gun law. I do think 99% of what we saw was not planned and the worry should be what if the next thing is more planned?

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46 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

No it isn't.  This person made an incredibly stupid, violent, un-American decision of her own free will to storm the capital building.  I have no problem with her getting shot.  That's an appropriate response under the circumstances.

It gets complicated for me when you get into the mental health angle.  It is certainly true that violent irrational criminal actions often end in death in our country and elsewhere. I feel some sympathy under these circumstances. She was a US government employee for much of her life and it’s sad she wasn’t directed into a place where she could get some help. 
 

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3 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

I haven't heard a lot about the group being armed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I've heard they weren't either.  The reporting on that subject has been largely, surprisingly, silent.

There are pictures of multiple shots fired into a door, that at first glance seem like they were shots fired to get in, rather than in defense, but that's a "way too early to know" take.

I think DC police reinforced and sent the message that "firearms are not permitted" days ahead of the protest. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/05/trump-protesters-warned-not-to-carry-guns-as-washington-dc-calls-up-national-guard

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3 minutes ago, 36Kevon said:

BLM extremists took over a police station and one full city block for a month.  3 black children died because they wouldnt let police in.  

Which is criminal.  But not remotely equivalent to invading and trying to capture the US Capitol.

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13 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

So no link? Cool. 

I provided you a link to numerous instances that are actually correct comparisons to what happened yesterday. If you are stuck in the mindset that thinks what happened yesterday was like the riots that happened in the summer of 2020, then I can't help you. You're unwilling to accept reality. What happened yesterday will forever be remembered as "Sore Losers Day" because it was one of the few moments in history where the US government was attacked on it's own soil. The riots of the summer of 2020 will just be remembered as a cultural thing, like "the 60's". 

 

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2 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

No doubt this was sad all the way around.

 

My guess is that Capitol Police were caught unaware - not expecting protesters to breech the Capitol.  But, once that happened, in the chaos and confusion people inside were not able to accurately gauge the threat level.  My personal view is that none of the people roaming the halls wanted this to end in a violent confrontation, but rather they wanted to be disruptive. And, so, given the chaos and uncertainty, when someone is breaking down and into a more secure interior space - those charged with protecting the people inside did what they thought was necessary.

I agree it would be a very challenging situation for the police they have a tough job I know I couldn’t do. Sad it ended up the way it did though. 

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2 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Right but he’s saying if they actually came there with the intent of sparking a Civil War or taking over the US Govt, they wouldn’t be worried about a gun law. I do think 99% of what we saw was not planned. 

Right.

It's not like people were serious about "Vive la révolution", but then said, "Hey guys, leave the guns at home...there's laws against that sort of thing."

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9 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

I haven't heard a lot about the group being armed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I've heard they weren't either.  The reporting on that subject has been largely, surprisingly, silent.

There are pictures of multiple shots fired into a door, that at first glance seem like they were shots fired to get in, rather than in defense, but that's a "way too early to know" take.

Do explosive devices at the RNC and DNC count?

https://twitter.com/JakeBGibson/status/1347189169613844482?s=20

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12 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

This is what struck me this morning. For a group that could be assumed to be "gun nuts", I haven't heard a report of anyone actually being armed.

52 arrested, 6 weapons recovered at U.S. Capitol riot

The Washington, D.C., police chief says at least six weapons have been recovered, dozens of people have been arrested and 14 police officers have been hurt so far in Wednesday’s pro-Trump riot.

The mostly maskless crowd stormed the Capitol earlier Wednesday as lawmakers were meeting to certify President-elect Joe Biden’s win. One woman was shot and later pronounced dead.

Police Chief Robert Contee called the attack a riot.

Mayor Muriel Bowser earlier declared a 6 p.m. curfew.

As darkness began to set in, law enforcement officials were working their way toward the protesters, using percussion grenades to try to clear the area around the Capitol. Big clouds of tear gas were visible.

Police were in full riot gear. They moved down the West steps, clashing with demonstrators.

Officials say the Capitol was cleared by 8 p.m., when Congress reconvened.

By 9:30 p.m., 52 people had been arrested. Four were taken into custody on suspicion of carrying pistols without licenses, one for alleged possession of prohibited weapon and 47 on suspicion of curfew and unlawful entry violations, Contee said.

Of those detained, 26 were arrested on Capitol grounds.  

Authorities also recovered two pipe bombs — one each at the Democratic National Committee and Republican National Committee headquarters. 

A cooler containing a long gun and Molotov cocktails were also seized at the Capitol. And six firearms were recovered Wednesday, in addition to three the night before, according to Contee.

Fourteen D.C. police officers were injured in the unrest, including two who remained hospitalized Wednesday night.

One officer suffered serious injuries after he was pulled into a crowd and assaulted, while the other hospitalized sustained significant facial injuries from being struck by a projectile, Contee said.

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1 minute ago, Death Bytes said:

I provided you a link to numerous instances that are actually correct comparisons to what happened yesterday. If you are stuck in the mindset that thinks what happened yesterday was like the riots that happened in the summer of 2020, then I can't help you. You're unwilling to accept reality. What happened yesterday will forever be remembered as "Sore Losers Day" because it was one of the few moments in history where the US government was attacked on it's own soil. The riots of the summer of 2020 will just be remembered as a cultural thing, like "the 60's". 

 

So no link and now misdirection? Cool. 

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42 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

It’s the US Capitol.  This isn’t remotely comparable to burning down the neighborhood Bed Bath & Beyond.  Unreal.

Unreal is right, no one was shot when the Kavanaugh protestors stormed the Capitol and 293 were arrested. Sorry you are justifying it and don’t think it’s sad. 

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

So no link and now misdirection? Cool. 

You know, sometimes you have some good things to offer this forum.  But, your snark level is off the charts so often.  You should really consider turning that down because it really offsets a lot of your message that could be useful.  It's a very consistent pattern.  It's just not necessary to get your point across.  Do what you want with my $.02.

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1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

Definitely needs an investigation as I am against lethal force except when absolutely necessary even if it’s from law enforcement or secret service. I don’t know who was on the other side of that window she was coming for. If it was members of Congress and the LEO were significantly outnumbered, I think a case for lethal force is probably warranted unfortunately. A full investigation into all of this is needed. The biggest question is why was there such a minimal police presence there when everyone knew there was a huge contentious event taking place and a large crowd expected to be in DC to protest.

Agreed, let’s see what the investigation turns up.  I saw some footage of protestors easily getting through the front talking to guards it seemed, very different extremes and sad they weren’t all on the same page but also understand it’s a tough job. 

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