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New cyber attack on pipeline...how vulnerable is our infrastructure (1 Viewer)

parasaurolophus said:
We were talking about building local redundancies for hurricanes. Your company having locations all over the country isnt the same thing, so does att. They would need local redundancies to prevent what happened. And for a hurricane, surely you can see how having two locations in the same city doesnt really help. It could, but more than likely if one goes down, so does the other. 

You proposed an actual blueprint for it, which I agree would be the way you would do it, but look at the costs. You can quickly see why they dont. 

Now lets move that to things like shootings or bombings. Who thinks you should have two facilities in each location to be prepared for a bombing? 

It is kind of absurd if you start thinking about doubling up on everything because of incidents like this. 

And imagine if, and I am just spitballing here, there were two bombs! 
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Sorry.....when you said "local", I thought you were talking about in the state...not cities.  Sites within a city aren't sufficient and why I said they'd most likely need to be on opposite sides of the state whether that's North/South or East/West.  It's most wise to have one site in each part of the state.  They have them to service those areas already they aren't likely hooked together so one could take over for the other.  

You're way in the weeds and have made some assumptions that I haven't.  For example, redundancy doesn't translate into 100% availability at all times.  There are scenarios that could happen that would still cause an outage.  It's literally impossible to account for all scenarios that could ever happen.  That's not realistic and nothing I'd ever suggest and certainly not the goal/approach companies typically take.  All this is framed incorrectly IMO though....from a company perspective there aren't "local redundancies".  They are just redundancies...depending on the situation and the company those might be IN the same state or might not so to limit the focus to "local redundancies" starts off on the wrong path IMO.  So, no, I am not suggesting that a company build two buildings in the same city for things like this...not even close and I agree that approach would be absurd.

 
The General said:
Ok. I wasn’t tracking that and def didn’t get this vibe from Sho’s original post.

Does seem like fixing infrastructure is a bipartisan thing, Obama talked about it, Trump talked about it, Biden talked about it. 

This is another issue I can never figure out how it doesn’t get done.
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They all like to "talk" about it....that's the problem.

 
The Commish said:
They all like to "talk" about it....that's the problem.
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Yes...unfortunately "infrastructure week" became a joke.

Like many things...some in Washington like to talk about it, until its time to fund it.  And Infrastructure is boring and doesn't move the needle for most there or the public enough to support (until they need the improvements and its too late because those improvements take a lot of time, there is no quick fix)

 
sho nuff said:
The headline states infrastructure talk...correct?  And correctly identifies the plot in the story that, along with the bombing, got me thinking about it.

Now do you or the others have something about the topic to add...or just more complaints about me?  Please stop this...it does not help discourse.
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Got it. 
 

I think I saw a Proud Boy this morning trying to cut my cable.  I am assuming he is a Proud Boy.  He had on carharts, a red ball cap (possibly MAGA or Cincinnati Reds) and was not a POC.  He took off in a van that said WOW on the side.  I think that’s some new extremist buzz word?

 
sho nuff said:
Please post a link to you ever doing this.  I have condemned the actions of Antifa...please try talking about the topic...there is good discussion here outside the few trying to complete derail the thing.
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Just tell them the Stand Down and Stand By.  Worked for Donald when asked to condemn White Supremacists. :shrug:

 
The Commish said:
The General said:
Ok. I wasn’t tracking that and def didn’t get this vibe from Sho’s original post.

Does seem like fixing infrastructure is a bipartisan thing, Obama talked about it, Trump talked about it, Biden talked about it. 

This is another issue I can never figure out how it doesn’t get done.
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They all like to "talk" about it....that's the problem.
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Its a great bi-partisan talking point. But neither side ever wants to commit the trillions of dollars a true infrastructure overhaul would require. Trump's proposal, which never gained any support thankfully, was to largely fund a bill with private money which would only lead to a toll-based system of interstates. Although I've been thinking for years that's the direction we're going but thankfully hasn't happened yet.

 
knowledge dropper said:
Got it. 
 

I think I saw a Proud Boy this morning trying to cut my cable.  I am assuming he is a Proud Boy.  He had on carharts, a red ball cap (possibly MAGA or Cincinnati Reds) and was not a POC.  He took off in a van that said WOW on the side.  I think that’s some new extremist buzz word?
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Nope.  Proud Boys are into cosplay and dressing up as Army men.  What you probably saw is just your run of the mill Trumper or perhaps it was Larry the Comcast Guy. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
White supremacy pushes clicks. 

Thats why a plot from a year ago by a 17 year old that went nowhere gets play and we rarely talk about the shootings that happen all over the country. 

Thats why 15 people can get shot at a funeral and it is a blip. Wrong demo. 
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Apparently one of the teens put up Nazi flags in his room!  His mom made him take them down.   :lmao:

 
sho nuff said:
It wasn't just a plot of one 17 year old...as the article stated.  And it, along with other events, showed and overall vulnerability we have...and has led to quality discussion once you get past the smoke screen of those being so critical about a poster and try actually discussing what is going on.

Shootings do get talked about...and if anyone wants to talk more about shootings and guns there are multiple threads for those.
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I should have been clearer, I meant in the media. I dont think you care if you get clicks. You are just presenting what is presented. 

 
Amused to Death said:
Its a great bi-partisan talking point. But neither side ever wants to commit the trillions of dollars a true infrastructure overhaul would require. Trump's proposal, which never gained any support thankfully, was to largely fund a bill with private money which would only lead to a toll-based system of interstates. Although I've been thinking for years that's the direction we're going but thankfully hasn't happened yet.
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Maybe not a second, toll-based system of interstates but pretty much every expansion lately seemed to be to add toll lanes.  But that is the differences between the sides.  They agree on the need for infrastructure improvement but disagree on how to pay for it.  The GOP looking to privatize and/or utilize "usage fees" and democrats looking to use tax revenue (of course because it is a tax, the gas tax is nothing like a usage fee).   This also leads to differences in the types of projects.   Mass transportation projects for the masses tend to not pay for themselves so republicans oppose.  Toll based interstates would create a class of privileged drivers - those that can afford to drive on the nice new roads so democrats oppose.   Seems like a good opportunity to meet in the middle which I think largely happens at the local and state levels (though that is anecdotal from the knowledge of single digit number of states) but fails with one party solidly "no compromise" at the federal level and the other flirting with it.  Now this was mostly in the context of roads and such, but I think that the concepts are the same even though the details change for other areas - at least at the very high level I reside.  Those deeply involved at the nitty gritty levels would likely have a different perspective.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
pretty much every expansion lately seemed to be to add toll lanes
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Are referring to things like bridges and tunnels? What I've seen in the NY/NJ/PA area is more one-way tolls and the elimination of pay tolls, opting for electronic tolling (bill in the mail, even before covid). I've seen a push to expand electronic tolling on turnpikes and bridge/tunnel tolls. I agree that a usage based billing would be bad and leads to privatized system of roads.

Imo, the real infrastructure improvements are needed on our power grid and water supply (you NEVER want to see the condition of your water main, EVER!). Also our major bridges and tunnels. You want to really cripple our economy? See what a shutdown of the Holland or Lincoln Tunnels would do or a breakdown on the NE corridor rail lines - the major comminuting arteries in and out of the financial district in Manhattan.

Somewhat unrelated, there's soon going to be a new toll to enter lower Manhattan - below Central Park. The infrastructure for that is currently in design and implementation. Not sure if that will be electronic only. 

 
Amused to Death said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
pretty much every expansion lately seemed to be to add toll lanes
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Are referring to things like bridges and tunnels?
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No I mostly meant taking an existing highway and adding a lane or two that is only [legally] accessible via tolls.  In Maryland that was how new highway projects were [mostly] funded.  The same seems to be true in North Texas.  Also thinking of what used to be "high occupancy" lanes in various other states now being toll lanes.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
No I mostly meant taking an existing highway and adding a lane or two that is only [legally] accessible via tolls.  In Maryland that was how new highway projects were [mostly] funded.  The same seems to be true in North Texas.  Also thinking of what used to be "high occupancy" lanes in various other states now being toll lanes.
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Gotcha. They have not made their way (yet) to my region of the country. Probably just a matter of time, but I've seen nothing pending so far in any new projects.

 
Amused to Death said:
would do or a breakdown on the NE corridor rail lines
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I spend most of my life within a mile of the "Penn line" even back when there was a  "Penn Central".   Near the location of the January '87 crash which happened* because 4 lines of rails become 2 to cross over a crumbling old concrete bridge with speed limits.  I think this trillion dollars plus project falls under projects that pay for themselves in indirect ways that don't interest private capital.

ETA:  *Ignoring for this conversation those that were under the influence.

 
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In an even better illustration of how much white supremacy stories really move the needle...

Aspen had gas service intentionally sabotaged to thousands of homes a week ago. 

Pretty much not a peep in the news. 

And before all the literalist liberalists that will now scour the internet looking for any sort of national coverage of the incident and post whatever link they can find, I am aware that abc news has a story on their site.

If you search CNN site for Aspen, there is no mention of this 5 pages into the search results(so i assume not at all). And also of course that ABC news story was out while this thread was active and nobody brought it up. Probably because none of us knew about it since there was no amplification of it. 

I found out about it from the independent uk that put something out yesterday. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
In an even better illustration of how much white supremacy stories really move the needle...

Aspen had gas service intentionally sabotaged to thousands of homes a week ago. 

Pretty much not a peep in the news. 

And before all the literalist liberalists that will now scour the internet looking for any sort of national coverage of the incident and post whatever link they can find, I am aware that abc news has a story on their site.

If you search CNN site for Aspen, there is no mention of this 5 pages into the search results(so i assume not at all). And also of course that ABC news story was out while this thread was active and nobody brought it up. Probably because none of us knew about it since there was no amplification of it. 

I found out about it from the independent uk that put something out yesterday. 
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I think there are more differences here than just the white supremacy angle...like, an arrest and knowing more about the plot of it.  And the plot was to destroy things...where as this was a disruption (and don't get me wrong, I don't want to minimize people being without heat in the cold)...but it was a disruption because stuff was turned off, not destroyed.

But it is also a quick reminder of how vulnerable we are...someone gained or had the knowledge of what to do in Aspen and possibly coordinated with others to shut it off in multiple locations.  Instead of just shutting things off, what if they had destroyed them...where would those people be?  It wouldn't just be relighting pilots to get heat going again.

 
sho nuff said:
, I don't want to minimize people being without heat in the cold)...but it was a disruption because stuff was turned off, not destroyed.
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So you think they passed out 6000 portable heaters instead of just turning it back on? 

Thousands of residents and businesses in Colorado were left without power over the weekend, after multiple gas lines were cut in the area.

 
Also lol at I dont want to minimize but let me minimize and everybody please ignore the original story i posted never actually even happened and was internet chatter so my point about destruction is completely irrelevant.

 
parasaurolophus said:
So you think they passed out 6000 portable heaters instead of just turning it back on? 

Thousands of residents and businesses in Colorado were left without power over the weekend, after multiple gas lines were cut in the area.
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Pilots had to be relit (as I stated)...which is why they couldn't just turn it back on.  While investigating and relighting, the gas company also shut down the meters.  Making sure no leaks and all the safety things they have to do.  So no...I don't think they handed out heaters rather than just "turning it back on".  Save your snark for someone else please.

parasaurolophus said:
Also lol at I dont want to minimize but let me minimize and everybody please ignore the original story i posted never actually even happened and was internet chatter so my point about destruction is completely irrelevant.
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Yeah...not at all what I did and said.  No need to try to look for some angle to everything and then get personal about it.

 
parasaurolophus said:
In an even better illustration of how much white supremacy stories really move the needle...

Aspen had gas service intentionally sabotaged to thousands of homes a week ago. 

Pretty much not a peep in the news. 

And before all the literalist liberalists that will now scour the internet looking for any sort of national coverage of the incident and post whatever link they can find, I am aware that abc news has a story on their site.

If you search CNN site for Aspen, there is no mention of this 5 pages into the search results(so i assume not at all). And also of course that ABC news story was out while this thread was active and nobody brought it up. Probably because none of us knew about it since there was no amplification of it. 

I found out about it from the independent uk that put something out yesterday. 
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white supremacists sabotaged the gas service?

Well, now that Biden's president the White Supremacy Boogeyman has been solved.  It's no longer an issue.

 
BladeRunner said:
white supremacists sabotaged the gas service?

Well, now that Biden's president the White Supremacy Boogeyman has been solved.  It's no longer an issue.
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What in the world does this even mean?  And what is the purpose of a post like this?  Seriously...would love to hear what purpose this serves.

 
sho nuff said:
Yeah...not at all what I did and said.  No need to try to look for some angle to everything and then get personal about it.
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It is exactly what you did and said. 

Any time somebody says something like i dont want to minimize... or no offense, or whatever, that is exactly what follows. 

Obviously to make such a point about it being turned off vs destruction and for that point to actually have any meaning at all, we would have to ignore that there wasnt actually any destruction in the scenario to compare to.

So yes it is 100% what you said. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
So to build the redundancy for hurricanes, you have to build a mirrored setup and then whenever one side gets hit you literally have to rebuild double. Since obviously if one data center got hit, the redundancy for the other side of the state would also get hit. Heaven forbid one come through and rip both sides. 

I imagine that is the reason hurricanes don't spark this kind of building. 
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You don’t build double infrastructure for the power grid. It is not possible. You plan for the outages. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
It is exactly what you did and said. 

Any time somebody says something like i dont want to minimize... or no offense, or whatever, that is exactly what follows. 

Obviously to make such a point about it being turned off vs destruction and for that point to actually have any meaning at all, we would have to ignore that there wasnt actually any destruction in the scenario to compare to.

So yes it is 100% what you said. 
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Because shutting it down (what happened) vs destroying the infrastructure are two distinctly different things.  

One having a much easier remedy than the other.  Ive read the articles...there wasn't destruction.  None of the articles talk about destruction...understand the word cut does not always indicate physically cutting of a pipe.  Your own article you linked states...

“They tampered with flow lines. They turned off gas lines,” he added.
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They turned them off...not destroyed...turned them off.  After talking about they must have had familiarity with the system.

So don't try to claim what I said...I know what I said...what the article said..and what I meant.  It appears there was no destruction here.

 
If the point of this thread was to discuss the vulnerability of our infrastructure and we learn that an environmental group successfully shut off gas to thousands of people in the dead of winter, I'm not sure how that is not relevant to the discussion and why you are fighting the dialog.

 
TheMagus said:
If the point of this thread was to discuss the vulnerability of our infrastructure and we learn that an environmental group successfully shut off gas to thousands of people in the dead of winter, I'm not sure how that is not relevant to the discussion and why you are fighting the dialog.
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Ummm, I stated in my first response to him that it was a reminder of vulnerable we are.  I have zero issue with more articles talking about that being posted.  I was criticized for downplaying, and I responded  based on the facts of what happened in Aspen.  I have not said it wasn’t relevant.  I took exception to the point being made not about infrastructure and vulnerability...but that it was presented more as a narrative about media and who gets what attention without recognizing the other differences in the two “attacks on our infrastructure “.

Situations like that should absolutely be discussed here as we move forward.

 
sho nuff said:
Because shutting it down (what happened) vs destroying the infrastructure are two distinctly different things.  

One having a much easier remedy than the other.  Ive read the articles...there wasn't destruction.  None of the articles talk about destruction...understand the word cut does not always indicate physically cutting of a pipe.  Your own article you linked states...

They turned them off...not destroyed...turned them off.  After talking about they must have had familiarity with the system.

So don't try to claim what I said...I know what I said...what the article said..and what I meant.  It appears there was no destruction here.
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Classic move the goalposts. 

I pointed out that an actual act of sabotage that led to thousands without has got less coverage than a year old never happened event because there was no white supremacy involved. If the stuff in colorado was linked to a white supremacy group instead of an environmental group it would be a massive story. 

You tried to emphasize but it was a disruption because stuff was turned off, not destroyed.

that is meaningless unless we ignore that the other story also had zero destruction. Litetally zero. Not even a cut lock or chain. Not even a broken branch en route. They never did anything. 

It is the whole reason you brought up destruction. To counter that the white supremacy angle is why the other story got so much play.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Classic move the goalposts. 

I pointed out that an actual act of sabotage that led to thousands without has got less coverage than a year old never happened event because there was no white supremacy involved. If the stuff in colorado was linked to a white supremacy group instead of an environmental group it would be a massive story. 

You tried to emphasize but it was a disruption because stuff was turned off, not destroyed.

that is meaningless unless we ignore that the other story also had zero destruction. Litetally zero. Not even a cut lock or chain. Not even a broken branch en route. They never did anything. 

It is the whole reason you brought up destruction. To counter that the white supremacy angle is why the other story got so much play.
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I moved no such goalposts.  My words have been entirely consistent in replies to the story you have made.  Ive stated there were several differences...you continue to refuse to see them in order to argue points that have little to do with this thread and infrastructure.

In addition...the event I linked to was new (the actual arrest and all)...if you want to make a point about the coverage and attention, there are threads for that.  I would even agree with you about that (just as I think the Nashville story would have gotten more attention if it wasn't just some crazy white guy).

The whole reason I am talking about destruction is to cite the difference in the story.  And yes..if there was actual destruction it would have also been a bigger story.  I don't give a crap if its white supremacists or not...this thread is about infrastructure at this point and has been a good thread.  Better if it didn't include back and forths like this one derailing everything.

Now...care to talk about the actual topic...or more personal jabs where you claim to know why and what I said vs. listening to what I am actually saying?

 
Are people really trying to compare the aspen vandalism vs the Nashville bombing?

Wow

 
And now we see a hacking of our infrastructure and the effect it is having on gas...prices and supply.

 
 I posted the hack in the thread with the solarwinds hack.  Wasn't sure where to go, but this thread could be our general thread for hacks I guess.  Anyhow...wondering how many who poo pooed government oversite of business in this area are now switching their tune.  Is this now "Biden's fault"?  I have to think for some it is and I welcome the inevitable  "can't tell business what to do, but this is Biden's problem" shtick from the "small government" (allegedly) crew around here.

 
The Commish said:
 I posted the hack in the thread with the solarwinds hack.  Wasn't sure where to go, but this thread could be our general thread for hacks I guess.  Anyhow...wondering how many who poo pooed government oversite of business in this area are now switching their tune.  Is this now "Biden's fault"?  I have to think for some it is and I welcome the inevitable  "can't tell business what to do, but this is Biden's problem" shtick from the "small government" (allegedly) crew around here.
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A massive failure that was years in thw making.  The vulnerabilities have been discussed and were basically ignored previously.   Will these new infrastructure bills address this?

 
sho nuff said:
A massive failure that was years in thw making.  The vulnerabilities have been discussed and were basically ignored previously.   Will these new infrastructure bills address this?
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Not that I've seen.  We really need a "Cyber Security Force" in this country before we need a "Space Force"...that's how far behind we are and how void our policies are of meaningful measures to prevent this kind of thing.  It's like we still think WWIII is going to be fought with boots on the grounds, tanks and airplanes.

 
I'm not sure who paid for it but I did notice some changes at a large power station that I pass on my way to my parents house. I'd say some time last year around April or May, the fence went from simple 8' barb wire to looking like a prison wall. Two full walls, one about 10' with steel plating and the outer one 12' about 3-4' thick stone. Barb wire lining the top of both with cameras on every corner aiming both ways. Didn't pass it at night but it also looked like large spotights probably trigger with motion sensors. 

I'd say that grid is pretty damn safe from random yahoos and most concerted attacks. Someone would need a tank to get through it or an RPG from a tree to aim down on it. 

 
The Commish said:
 I posted the hack in the thread with the solarwinds hack.  Wasn't sure where to go, but this thread could be our general thread for hacks I guess.  Anyhow...wondering how many who poo pooed government oversite of business in this area are now switching their tune.  Is this now "Biden's fault"?  I have to think for some it is and I welcome the inevitable  "can't tell business what to do, but this is Biden's problem" shtick from the "small government" (allegedly) crew around here.
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Its only going to get worse

 
The Commish said:
sho nuff said:
A massive failure that was years in thw making.  The vulnerabilities have been discussed and were basically ignored previously.   Will these new infrastructure bills address this?
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Not that I've seen.  We really need a "Cyber Security Force" in this country before we need a "Space Force"...that's how far behind we are and how void our policies are of meaningful measures to prevent this kind of thing.  It's like we still think WWIII is going to be fought with boots on the grounds, tanks and airplanes.
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This

Unfortunately there is no money in prevention.  There is no money is risk analysis.  The money is in "rolling the dice" and "playing the odds" that nothing happens.  Margins in the Operational Expense at utilities is razor thin.  What will need to happen is all "cyber security" efforts can be assigned into a rate case so the consumer's foot the bill.

 
Insein said:
I'm not sure who paid for it but I did notice some changes at a large power station that I pass on my way to my parents house. I'd say some time last year around April or May, the fence went from simple 8' barb wire to looking like a prison wall. Two full walls, one about 10' with steel plating and the outer one 12' about 3-4' thick stone. Barb wire lining the top of both with cameras on every corner aiming both ways. Didn't pass it at night but it also looked like large spotights probably trigger with motion sensors. 

I'd say that grid is pretty damn safe from random yahoos and most concerted attacks. Someone would need a tank to get through it or an RPG from a tree to aim down on it. 
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Rando's sure.  The physical attack vector is reasonable to solve.  But once you allow remote connectivity into stations, once you perpetuate routable 61850, the sky is the limit 

 
Insein said:
I'm not sure who paid for it but I did notice some changes at a large power station that I pass on my way to my parents house. I'd say some time last year around April or May, the fence went from simple 8' barb wire to looking like a prison wall. Two full walls, one about 10' with steel plating and the outer one 12' about 3-4' thick stone. Barb wire lining the top of both with cameras on every corner aiming both ways. Didn't pass it at night but it also looked like large spotights probably trigger with motion sensors. 

I'd say that grid is pretty damn safe from random yahoos and most concerted attacks. Someone would need a tank to get through it or an RPG from a tree to aim down on it. 
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Physical attacks aren't the problem....there is significantly more bang for the buck on the technology side of security.  We need not be nearly as concerned about a person attacking a physical site as we do cyber attacks from all over the world.  

 
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