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2021 Las Vegas Raiders - PLAYOFFS!!!! (6 Viewers)

I've seen this twice now - we pick 17th, not 20th.

If I were to have my choice of a slider it would be Justin Fields

/ducksforcover

Seriously.  If he falls go get him.  He won't though, so then I'll have to settle for repeating the Pitts sentiment or going with Devonte Smith.  Yeah yeah Ruggs in 2020 we have bigger needs yadda yadda but I think this guy is going to be uncoverable and it's not like we are stocked to the brim at WR.  A guy that moves the chains on 3rd and 7 keeps Mahomes off the field better than any pass rusher would and a guy that gets into the end zone a ton offsets a CB that gives up a few big ones while learning on the job.

 
massraider said:
Kyle Pitts.  

And I install my two TE set, and ask defensive coordinators how they plan on covering Pitts and Waller.  
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It is funny you say that. 

I just started touching my looking into the draft class. And the first real thought I had was "What would be crazy like a fox but not out of the realm of something I can see Gruden/Mayock doing" and that was going with Pitts. I thought maybe I was too crazy to be thinking about that but maybe not. 

Waller and Pitts would easily be the best duo of TE's since before Aaron Hernandez decided to play gangsta and throw his life away. Add in the duo of RB's in Jacobs and Drake running through offenses on the ground and the speed of Ruggs and Brown to break things open, hopefully Edwards develops, and Renfrow being that possession type of guy with Carr picking things apart at 70% completion clips.... that is a scary, scary, scary offense. 

We still need a RT and a FS though. I am guessing a FS is possible in the 2nd or 3rd. Can we get a good RT later?

 
Hankmoody said:
I've seen this twice now - we pick 17th, not 20th.

If I were to have my choice of a slider it would be Justin Fields

/ducksforcover

Seriously.  If he falls go get him.  He won't though, so then I'll have to settle for repeating the Pitts sentiment or going with Devonte Smith.  Yeah yeah Ruggs in 2020 we have bigger needs yadda yadda but I think this guy is going to be uncoverable and it's not like we are stocked to the brim at WR.  A guy that moves the chains on 3rd and 7 keeps Mahomes off the field better than any pass rusher would and a guy that gets into the end zone a ton offsets a CB that gives up a few big ones while learning on the job.
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Falls? Falls where? 4th is the lowest he is going. 

 
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Chadstroma said:
If we could move up and get any top player on the board (your board) who would it be?
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Pitts, Devonta Smith or Chase.  I think all three are superstars and are the standouts in this class.  

And I am not just saying that because they are skill position players.  Last year my answer would have been Chase Young.

 
DA RAIDERS said:
there is no one i would move up for.  hoping they go LB or OL at 17.  if they go WR,   :rant:
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Agree and will add DT.   Not sure if there is a DT player worth the pick at 17 though.  DT would help the LB Corp out in the run game and even the edge pass rush.  QBs don’t like collapsing pockets.  Just go BPA for D or OT and I’m happy.  

And when I say BPA, I don’t mean Gruden’s BPA.  His BPA can be drafted in round 3.  I mean the consensus BPA.  

 
I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't take any DL in this draft.  They added 4 bodies to the DL room this offseason.  Maybe a late round run stuffer to stash on practice squad to replace Hankins someday.  They have a LOT of DL they are expecting to make the team.  

 
DocHolliday said:
Agree and will add DT.   Not sure if there is a DT player worth the pick at 17 though.  DT would help the LB Corp out in the run game and even the edge pass rush.  QBs don’t like collapsing pockets.  Just go BPA for D or OT and I’m happy.  

And when I say BPA, I don’t mean Gruden’s BPA.  His BPA can be drafted in round 3.  I mean the consensus BPA.  
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If DT is the pick at 17 Barmore is the guy and he's worth the 17th pick IMO.

 
IF everyone is right and it's OT/S, then it's clear you take the #1 safety at 17.  

No consensus on OT, and every team likes different styles.  But every team wants guys like Moerhig.  

 
massraider said:
IF everyone is right and it's OT/S, then it's clear you take the #1 safety at 17.  

No consensus on OT, and every team likes different styles.  But every team wants guys like Moerhig.  
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The last time the raiders hit on a 1st round dB, was Woodson.  Please no dbs at 17

 
DA RAIDERS said:
The last time the raiders hit on a 1st round dB, was Woodson.  Please no dbs at 17
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Can't operate this way IMO. BPA when 17 comes around could easily be a CB by a wide margin - there are several really solid CB prospects at the top of this draft, with my favorite for instant-impact player (~probowl level from go) being Jaycee Horn. The best teams don't draft for need in the first two rounds, but for impact.

Due to all the QB hype, there is likely to be one or two top-ten BPA talents available when 17 comes around. The Raiders need to pounce on whichever player falls - eff need in Rds 1 & 2! Save the filling of holes for later rounds and post-draft veteran free agents, if you become especially desperate at OT or S. Don't forget that Good can also play effectively at RT, and starting-quality rookie guards can be readily found in rds 3-5 every year. May already have one from last year in Simpson.

 
LawFitz said:
Can't operate this way IMO. BPA when 17 comes around could easily be a CB by a wide margin - there are several really solid CB prospects at the top of this draft, with my favorite for instant-impact player (~probowl level from go) being Jaycee Horn. The best teams don't draft for need in the first two rounds, but for impact.

Due to all the QB hype, there is likely to be one or two top-ten BPA talents available when 17 comes around. The Raiders need to pounce on whichever player falls - eff need in Rds 1 & 2! Save the filling of holes for later rounds and post-draft veteran free agents, if you become especially desperate at OT or S. Don't forget that Good can also play effectively at RT, and starting-quality rookie guards can be readily found in rds 3-5 every year. May already have one from last year in Simpson.
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This.  This.  This.  Gruden needs to go BPA for the most part.   This team needs at least one star on D.   

 
massraider said:
I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't take any DL in this draft.  They added 4 bodies to the DL room this offseason.  Maybe a late round run stuffer to stash on practice squad to replace Hankins someday.  They have a LOT of DL they are expecting to make the team.  
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If they go DL it will be in the 1st or very late rounds because I agree with your thinking. If they believe there is a impact player there at 17, I see them going that route but otherwise it won't be until later if they want a development type guy. 

 
***Off Topic***

Just an FYI, I stopped by the Raiders Tavern and Grill at the M Resort this weekend and was very underwhelmed. The food was mediocre and the service was nothing special either. The Décor is Raider themed of course but nothing spectacular.  If you're in town don't bother. There's plenty of better places to check out.  

***Return to Pointless Draft Speculation***

 
LawFitz said:
Can't operate this way IMO. BPA when 17 comes around could easily be a CB by a wide margin - there are several really solid CB prospects at the top of this draft, with my favorite for instant-impact player (~probowl level from go) being Jaycee Horn. The best teams don't draft for need in the first two rounds, but for impact.

Due to all the QB hype, there is likely to be one or two top-ten BPA talents available when 17 comes around. The Raiders need to pounce on whichever player falls - eff need in Rds 1 & 2! Save the filling of holes for later rounds and post-draft veteran free agents, if you become especially desperate at OT or S. Don't forget that Good can also play effectively at RT, and starting-quality rookie guards can be readily found in rds 3-5 every year. May already have one from last year in Simpson.
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i totally agree on BPA.  i think surtain and horn will be gone at 17.  and IMHO, only the most elite DBs change the D.  they are the rarest of defensive game changers.  the raiders are desperately thin at LB atm.  that's where i hope they go at 17.  and getting a game changer at LB, is more likely.   it's a deep class for OL, so i'd like to see them wait.

DocHolliday said:
This.  This.  This.  Gruden needs to go BPA for the most part.   This team needs at least one star on D.   
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see above.  i want them to go D at 17.  i just think LB is the safer pick

Chadstroma said:
BPA that is a scheme fit. 
 

It isn't like Madden where you can plug in the guy with the highest rating and have them perform in any scheme. 
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this is why gruden sucks at drafting. he gets fixated on a guy and thinks he's smarter than everyone else.  and it's why i'm fearful they will take yet another speed demon, shrimp of a WR.

case in point, drafting 3 WRs last year, with the first 3 picks.   :wall:

 
Possible the 2nd CB is available, and I could see that being a fit.

Phillips injury history makes me think he's not worth the 1st round risk. There's no way to get medically cleared regarding concussions. Doctors cannot look at MRIs and tell you he's more or less prone to another one.  And he's had three other surgeries.  Two ankle, one wrist.  

 
The top 6 most selected players in the first round for the Raider's in our Mock Draft Simulator are:

1. Trevon Moehrig
2. Christian Darrisaw
3. Rashawn Slater
4. Teven Jenkins
5. Jaycee Horn
6. JOK

This seems very reasonable.

 
SDJohnny said:
***Off Topic***

Just an FYI, I stopped by the Raiders Tavern and Grill at the M Resort this weekend and was very underwhelmed. The food was mediocre and the service was nothing special either. The Décor is Raider themed of course but nothing spectacular.  If you're in town don't bother. There's plenty of better places to check out.  

***Return to Pointless Draft Speculation***
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Is there any connection to the org or just a place licensed using the Shield?

 
massraider said:
The top 6 most selected players in the first round for the Raider's in our Mock Draft Simulator are:

1. Trevon Moehrig
2. Christian Darrisaw
3. Rashawn Slater
4. Teven Jenkins
5. Jaycee Horn
6. JOK

This seems very reasonable.
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#1 is the only one i don't want.  so, of course that will be the pick.  or, another smurf WR.  prepare yourselves.   :lmao:  

 
Chadstroma said:
BPA that is a scheme fit. 
 

It isn't like Madden where you can plug in the guy with the highest rating and have them perform in any scheme. 
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While that is true, this isn’t rocket science.   There will be a lot of great, logical choices available at 17 for the D.  Unfortunately, I have very little faith that Gruden will draft a logical choice.   

 
massraider said:
The top 6 most selected players in the first round for the Raider's in our Mock Draft Simulator are:

1. Trevon Moehrig
2. Christian Darrisaw
3. Rashawn Slater
4. Teven Jenkins
5. Jaycee Horn
6. JOK

This seems very reasonable.
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I'd be ok with anyone from the list except Moehrig. Not that I dislike the player, it's more about the position. They've invested enough draft capital in the safety position (they now have two 1st rounders back there). They can get a starting FS possibly in the 2nd round

I think they really need and impact player in the front 7 or a RT. 

 
DocHolliday said:
While that is true, this isn’t rocket science.   There will be a lot of great, logical choices available at 17 for the D.  Unfortunately, I have very little faith that Gruden will draft a logical choice.   
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🤣 come on brother.... drafting is harder than rocket science! Every team misses on picks, even 1st rounders. Heck, the team everyone thinks is the best at everything has had several less than good 1st rounders. Again, this ain't Madden.

 
Chadstroma said:
🤣 come on brother.... drafting is harder than rocket science! Every team misses on picks, even 1st rounders. Heck, the team everyone thinks is the best at everything has had several less than good 1st rounders. Again, this ain't Madden.
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I don’t understand your fascination with Madden.  You may have me confused with a poster that plays it.  I haven’t played it in over 20 years and even then it was only a few times.  I assume you can draft on Madden?    

Every team certainly misses with draft picks which is to be expected since the players are young humans and not machines.  The problem with the Raiders is that they don’t draft the logical  players that don’t work out.  They draft the wrong players that don’t work out which everyone predicts.  See Ruggs, Bowden, Annette, Edwards, Ferrell, Abram, Mullen.   

 Any GM that drafts 3 WRs for their first 3 picks while passing on the obvious best WR should be fired on the spot.  

No draft is perfect but it’s not that difficult to make the correct choice.  

 
Chadstroma said:
🤣 come on brother.... drafting is harder than rocket science! Every team misses on picks, even 1st rounders. Heck, the team everyone thinks is the best at everything has had several less than good 1st rounders. Again, this ain't Madden.
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we've had this discussion before.   :wall:   no one expects a home run on every pick.  what drives me crazy, is all the reaches.  dumb ### gruden, trying to outsmart  himself.  i'd rather the team, take the logical pick and miss, or get a lesser version of what was expected.  than take some dude that no else would consider at that spot and have them perform as expected.   then that pick is a miss, as expected.

2020's draft, was an absolute dumpster fire.

let's look at gruden's 2020 draft, logically.  no cherry picking, what ifs.  all of these players were available, when the raiders picked

lamb/juedy 

murray/queen

blackmon/dantzler(since no db was taken in the first)

edwards/duvernay(not logical in my mind, but it justifies the pick)  i would have preferred bpa, OL or DL

highsmith/taylor/davis-gather(since they intended tanner muse to play lb)

simpson/kindley

robertson/whoever else one might want to reach on

 
DocHolliday said:
I don’t understand your fascination with Madden.  You may have me confused with a poster that plays it.  I haven’t played it in over 20 years and even then it was only a few times.  I assume you can draft on Madden?    

Every team certainly misses with draft picks which is to be expected since the players are young humans and not machines.  The problem with the Raiders is that they don’t draft the logical  players that don’t work out.  They draft the wrong players that don’t work out which everyone predicts.  See Ruggs, Bowden, Annette, Edwards, Ferrell, Abram, Mullen.   

 Any GM that drafts 3 WRs for their first 3 picks while passing on the obvious best WR should be fired on the spot.  

No draft is perfect but it’s not that difficult to make the correct choice.  
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No fascination with Madden... I could say this isn't fantasy football too. I don't play Madden either, but I think a lot of arm chair QB's over simplify things because of video games or fantasy football or because they just don't have to actually make the decisions in real life. 

The correct choice is whoever plays well for the team. It really doesn't matter if everyone thinks you over reached or you surprised. Does it matter that Kolton Miller was a 'surprise' pick that many people said was a 'reach' and likely to fail? Nope. It doesn't matter. 

Does it matter if you pick the guy everyone thinks you should pick and then they suck? Rolando McClain was THE pick EVERYONE knew we should take. And we did. And that sucked. 

Everyone you pointed out other than Bowden is still with jury out. Bowden was a big fail. 

I just disagree that the 'correct choice' is who you think it is should be or even who I think it should be or who the mob thinks it should be. 

 
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DA RAIDERS said:
we've had this discussion before.   :wall:   no one expects a home run on every pick.  what drives me crazy, is all the reaches.  dumb ### gruden, trying to outsmart  himself.  i'd rather the team, take the logical pick and miss, or get a lesser version of what was expected.  than take some dude that no else would consider at that spot and have them perform as expected.   then that pick is a miss, as expected.

2020's draft, was an absolute dumpster fire.

let's look at gruden's 2020 draft, logically.  no cherry picking, what ifs.  all of these players were available, when the raiders picked

lamb/juedy 

murray/queen

blackmon/dantzler(since no db was taken in the first)

edwards/duvernay(not logical in my mind, but it justifies the pick)  i would have preferred bpa, OL or DL

highsmith/taylor/davis-gather(since they intended tanner muse to play lb)

simpson/kindley

robertson/whoever else one might want to reach on
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I disagree with this thinking, which is my point about the Madden/Fantasy Football or whatever comments. You can't just take a guy from team A with 100 tackles and 10 sacks and plug them into team B and expect those same 100 tackles and 10 sacks. If it were, Free Agency would always be the better route to go than drafting but the consistently successful teams focus on the draft and are careful in FA. They also draft to their team and not just the 'top rated player' from whoever. This is exactly why I say "BPA for scheme" and the fit is probably more than just scheme but that is an easy way to say it. There is no doubt in my mind, for example, that if Murray or Queen were drafted, they would have looked like busts last year. They would have been as lost and confused as almost every other defender we had. 

 
Chadstroma said:
Does it matter if you pick the guy everyone thinks you should pick and then they suck? Rolando McClain was THE pick EVERYONE knew we should take. And we did. And that sucked. 

Everyone you pointed out other than Bowden is still with jury out. Bowden was a big fail. 

I just disagree that the 'correct choice' is who you think it is should be or even who I think it should be or who the mob thinks it should be. 
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McClain is the perfect example of what i'm taking about.  it's easier, for me, to live with that pick not panning out, than fabian washington, michael huff, jaWalrus, dhb, dj hayden, karl joseph, gareon conley.  all pre gruden.  gruden era:  pj hall(especially with the mild reach of miller in round 1), ferrell, mullen, ruggs, armette, bowden, muse.  all reaches, IMHO.

i agree that the jury is still out on some of gruden's picks.  jury is still out on bowden as well.  he never should have been taken at that spot, but the jury is still out on him as well.

 
Chadstroma said:
I disagree with this thinking, which is my point about the Madden/Fantasy Football or whatever comments. You can't just take a guy from team A with 100 tackles and 10 sacks and plug them into team B and expect those same 100 tackles and 10 sacks. If it were, Free Agency would always be the better route to go than drafting but the consistently successful teams focus on the draft and are careful in FA. They also draft to their team and not just the 'top rated player' from whoever. This is exactly why I say "BPA for scheme" and the fit is probably more than just scheme but that is an easy way to say it. There is no doubt in my mind, for example, that if Murray or Queen were drafted, they would have looked like busts last year. They would have been as lost and confused as almost every other defender we had. 
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my example wasn't meant to imply that those players would have had the same success on the raiders, as they did on their teams.  it was merely an exercise in what a logical draft would/should have looked like.  all the dudes i mentioned were hyped up by "experts".  some of the guys in this thread were high on them as well.  they were also all available, when the raiders picked.

if you're encouraged by last years draft, i want some of what you're smokin!   :D  

 
DA RAIDERS said:
McClain is the perfect example of what i'm taking about.  it's easier, for me, to live with that pick not panning out, than fabian washington, michael huff, jaWalrus, dhb, dj hayden, karl joseph, gareon conley.  all pre gruden.  gruden era:  pj hall(especially with the mild reach of miller in round 1), ferrell, mullen, ruggs, armette, bowden, muse.  all reaches, IMHO.

i agree that the jury is still out on some of gruden's picks.  jury is still out on bowden as well.  he never should have been taken at that spot, but the jury is still out on him as well.
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Doesn't matter if Bowden ends up great or a bust, it was a failed pick. 

We either did mitigated the failure in moving him for something in return if a bust. Or we out messed up in shipping him. 

 
DA RAIDERS said:
my example wasn't meant to imply that those players would have had the same success on the raiders, as they did on their teams.  it was merely an exercise in what a logical draft would/should have looked like.  all the dudes i mentioned were hyped up by "experts".  some of the guys in this thread were high on them as well.  they were also all available, when the raiders picked.

if you're encouraged by last years draft, i want some of what you're smokin!   :D  
Click to expand...
I think you have to evaluate with a full picture. 

I think our rookies last year had hige obstacles. You had COVID of course but compounding that on offense is a fairly complicated system qnd on defense the scheme/coaching was a train wreck and even veterans were lost and confused. Time in the offense and development should help the offensive players and the new scheme and coaching should help on defense. 

My position is this. The reason I love football is because it is so complicated. It isn't just plug and play likr baseball or basketball where you go and get a great player and they will play great anywhere they go. BPA is not just taking the best player available because they BPA could look different team from team. If it wasn't so then drafting would be easy for the most part.

 
Chadstroma said:
I think you have to evaluate with a full picture. 

I think our rookies last year had hige obstacles. You had COVID of course but compounding that on offense is a fairly complicated system qnd on defense the scheme/coaching was a train wreck and even veterans were lost and confused. Time in the offense and development should help the offensive players and the new scheme and coaching should help on defense. 

My position is this. The reason I love football is because it is so complicated. It isn't just plug and play likr baseball or basketball where you go and get a great player and they will play great anywhere they go. BPA is not just taking the best player available because they BPA could look different team from team. If it wasn't so then drafting would be easy for the most part.
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i agree that we need to wait and see.  

but i was talking about the draft decisions, not the players drafted.  they took 3 wrs with the 1st 4 picks.   :sadbanana:

and someone needs to do a deep dive into the SEC.  12/25 of grudens picks, are from the SEC :thisisajoke:

 
DA RAIDERS said:
i agree that we need to wait and see.  

but i was talking about the draft decisions, not the players drafted.  they took 3 wrs with the 1st 4 picks.   :sadbanana:

and someone needs to do a deep dive into the SEC.  12/25 of grudens picks, are from the SEC :thisisajoke:
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To be fair... WR was a position we badly needed and they wanted Bowden as RB/joker

 
Chadstroma said:
To be fair... WR was a position we badly needed and they wanted Bowden as RB/joker
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If Gruden wanted the best WR, he should have gone with Lamb, the best one available instead of wasting three picks.   Maybe you think Lamb doesn’t fit our scheme.  😂.  

if Gruden drafted Bowden to be a RB, he is even worse than we think. Bowden has never looked like a true RB.   He is a slot WR at best.  

Gruden

 
DA RAIDERS said:
McClain is the perfect example of what i'm taking about.  it's easier, for me, to live with that pick not panning out
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McClain was the right pick.  That is a pick that you make every time.  Reaching for the wrong DE after trading away one of the best DEs in the league is an example of ineptitude.   Raider fans are in for years of misery with Gruden drafting.   

 
DocHolliday said:
If Gruden wanted the best WR, he should have gone with Lamb, the best one available instead of wasting three picks.   Maybe you think Lamb doesn’t fit our scheme.  😂.  

if Gruden drafted Bowden to be a RB, he is even worse than we think. Bowden has never looked like a true RB.   He is a slot WR at 
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Not what I am saying 

 
DocHolliday said:
McClain was the right pick.  That is a pick that you make every time.  Reaching for the wrong DE after trading away one of the best DEs in the league is an example of ineptitude.   Raider fans are in for years of misery with Gruden drafting.   
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Insanity to say McClain was the right pick when he was just a big of a bust as others. 

 
Chadstroma said:
Insanity to say McClain was the right pick when he was just a big of a bust as others. 
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He was a bust but it was a good, logical pick.  We expected him to work out.  We knew Ferrell, Annette and Ruggs were the wrong pick immediately.    We don’t expect them to work out.  

 
put it this way, if lamb or juedy are busts.  on the level of mclain, you say oh well.  #### happens.  can't pick a winner every time.  if ruggs is a bust, that was avoidable by taking one of the other two.  and is completely on gruden.  and if lamb and/or juedy are great, á dios mio!  what fools the raiders and gruden will be.  smdh

with the positional need and not taking lamb or juedy, is bonkers.

 
DocHolliday said:
He was a bust but it was a good, logical pick.  We expected him to work out.  We knew Ferrell, Annette and Ruggs were the wrong pick immediately.    We don’t expect them to work out.  
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Ruggs was expected to be a first round pick, likely top 20.  So if he was drafted at 20 or so instead of 12 would that change and mean he was expected to work out?

 
Basically what I am hearing from some people here is that you evaluate a draft class immediately after the draft and the actual production 3-4 years down the line is inconsequential.  Seems strange.

 
ICON211 said:
Basically what I am hearing from some people here is that you evaluate a draft class immediately after the draft and the actual production 3-4 years down the line is inconsequential.  Seems strange.
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You are correct that you don’t fully evaluate draft classes after one year.  You should wait 2 or 3 years.  Part of the evaluation of the draft does happen immediately though based on the decisions made by team during the draft.   Teams are graded based on if they chose the best player available or reached for need or chose an inferior player.  For the two years, the Raiders made horrible decisions in the early rounds of the drafts.  The immediate grades were poor and the grade for the 2019 draft after one year remains poor.  

 
So much whining about draft classes in here. The 2019 class was poor?

Ferrell

Jacobs

Abram

Mullen

Crosby

Johnson

Moreau

Renfrow

Q. Bell

All of these players, even Bell has shown enough to be far from a bust at this point. Several (all?) still have significant upside, considering, I dunno... Their first two seasons included their rookie year and a Covid year!

I too get down on the Raiders often. But I am not even close to down on this class.

 
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