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2021 Las Vegas Raiders - PLAYOFFS!!!! (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
DocHolliday
Footballguy
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Ed Wood
Footballguy
You've been uber patient, Doc.
You've seen nearly a calendar year's worth of what could be summed up as below mediocre.Can anybody on the board say without lying they're happy with where the team is at after 3 years of Gruden? That when Gruden was introduced as head coach, if somebody told you he'd be 17-29, that the offense would be considerably improved, that the defense would be woefully inadequate and that there doesn't appear to be a sound foundation in place to build on (I know that's subjective), you'd have said, "Sign me up"? That this is about where you thought they'd be? Sure, they've been in the playoff hunt late in the season the last two years but the league is such that lots of teams could say that.
On a scale of 1-10, I'd give the Gruden regime—when I consider everything about the team—a 4, below average.
Others?
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
4 sounds about right. 3.5 when i factor in 100 million and 10 years.
anyone have any info on agohlor? rumors are surfacing that he doesn't like the culture of the organization. to me, that screams gruden and to a lesser extent, davis. no clue if it's legit or not. worrisome though.
i mentioned this when they hired gruden. i don't think he gets the young kids, that are today's game. all the screaming and funny faces, doesn't hold much water with kids these days. at least, that's what mine tells me.
anyone have any info on agohlor? rumors are surfacing that he doesn't like the culture of the organization. to me, that screams gruden and to a lesser extent, davis. no clue if it's legit or not. worrisome though.
i mentioned this when they hired gruden. i don't think he gets the young kids, that are today's game. all the screaming and funny faces, doesn't hold much water with kids these days. at least, that's what mine tells me.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Some ya'll are just pushing it to see the point where I blow up.... aren't you?
ICON211
Footballguy
Gruden is still a really good offensive coach. He needs a strong defensive coordinator, hopefully Bradley fits the bill.
I'm not saying LaFleur is not a good coach and I wish the Raiders could get to the playoffs never mind the conference title game, but LaFleur has melted down two years in a row in the NFC title game. They got blasted against the Niners two years ago and this year he had a really rough game. Besides kicking the field goal late he never adjusted to the Bucs D during the game. His tackles were getting killed all game vs Barrett and JPP and he left them one on one the whole game.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I'd agree, 4 sounds about right. Here's the problem with the Raiders as i see it:You've been uber patient, Doc.
Can anybody on the board say without lying they're happy with where the team is at after 3 years of Gruden? That when Gruden was introduced as head coach, if somebody told you he'd be 17-29, that the offense would be considerably improved, that the defense would be woefully inadequate and that there doesn't appear to be a sound foundation in place to build on (I know that's subjective), you'd have said, "Sign me up"? That this is about where you thought they'd be? Sure, they've been in the playoff hunt late in the season the last two years but the league is such that lots of teams could say that.
On a scale of 1-10, I'd give the Gruden regime—when I consider everything about the team—a 4, below average.
Others?
Spending a 1st round draft pick on Johnathan Abram. It's a reach, simple as that. Look at the teams in the Super Bowl. KC L'Jarius Sneed, Juan Thornhill. TB Winfield Jr and Sean Murphy-Bunting. These players are making a huge impact on their respective defenses, and not one 1st round draft pick in the bunch.
Everyone talks about the QBs, understandably so, but it's the scouting and drafting of the other positions that really makes the difference. I used Abram as one example, but one could go up and down the Raiders roster and compare it to the teams in the league with top notch front offices and see where the Raiders are dropping the ball. It's not always about Derek Carr vs Patrick Mahomes but Sneed vs Abram, Chris Jones vs Maurice Hurst. I hope Mayock and Gruden take a long hard look in the mirror this offseason and examine the job they've been doing because theres no excuse for how lousy that defense has become. And it starts at the top...
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I only care what my fellow Raider Nation citizens think. You can say whatever you want and I will ignore it.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
First I heard Abram was a stretch.
I am willing to bet that you will see a marked improvement in his play in the new system and under Gus. I bet most players will improve. The biggest issue with the defense we noted for many players was them looking lost or out of place. We have brought over players that played well elsewhere but floundered with us. Why? I believe is they didn't "get" the system. Whether it was too complicated or not implemented or coached well or gameplannned poorly... or all of the above... I don’t know. But I think our players knowing what they are doing is going to make a huge difference.
The only question is if the trade off on the system being "simple" will make it too easy to attack. However, I posted an article a bit back that dived into that subject and how Gus has evolved the cover 3 base system he uses.
I hear you Chad, I've been racking my brain over their defensive woes and it can't be just as simple as firing the DC. Ken Norton Jr as a recent example. Then on the other hand the Chiefs (sorry for bringing them up again but they are the champs) fired their DC and brought in (name escapes me, but you see my point) a new guy and the defense did a 180°. But that can't be solely attributable to the new DC. We have to account the front office for smart draft choices like Sneed and Thornhill and excellent free agents like Mathieu (sp?). Its the organization as a whole being smart. Making the DC the scapegoat is fine, but your players you drafted better perform at a higher level, because the next next on the chopping block won't be Mark Davis', know what I mean? The pressure is completely on Mayock and Gruden now, no more shifting blame.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I am not looking for blame. I am looking for evidence that tells a story. The story that I sm reading is that the defense under performed because the players were not where they were supposed to be (a common theme among players) and/or thinking too much (Littleton seems to be a good example) and/or asked to a position, roll or to do things they were not well suited for (Joyner is a good example).
I don't think that the only issue was DC but when I try to figure out the problems with our defense, I think the change of DC will make for an improved defense just on the roster we have. How much improvement? I have no clue but it wouldn't take that much improvement for us to be a 10+ win team.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i'm not sure how much is on the players, and how much is on the d coaches.
using abrams as an example, guy does not cover for ####. he's really bad. he's often WAAAAAAAY out of position, usually looking for the big hit. which in turn, injures him.
is that just who he is? or can he be 'coached up'? i think he listens to his press and is always trying to live up to the big hitter rep. maybe the right coach changes that. who knows.
people are saying that bradley is going to recreate the legion of boom. uh....we don't have those players.
here are the SD, team defense, rankings under bradley 3, 8, 14, 23. not trending in the right direction. better than the raiders but they had/have better players.
using abrams as an example, guy does not cover for ####. he's really bad. he's often WAAAAAAAY out of position, usually looking for the big hit. which in turn, injures him.
is that just who he is? or can he be 'coached up'? i think he listens to his press and is always trying to live up to the big hitter rep. maybe the right coach changes that. who knows.people are saying that bradley is going to recreate the legion of boom. uh....we don't have those players.
here are the SD, team defense, rankings under bradley 3, 8, 14, 23. not trending in the right direction. better than the raiders but they had/have better players.
Ed Wood
Footballguy
Good points, Icon. Didn't see two years ago but I watched Sunday. Not his finest hour for sure. But I watched his press conference and I thot it was refreshing when he was asked "did you regret not going for the TD" and he said "I did." In the same situation Gruden would have likely said, "No, I don't. That was the call we (I) made. It just didn't work out."
And he says too often when things don't fall right in a game "It's on me." We know that, Jon. Everybody knows that. Do something about it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ed Wood
Footballguy
Since we're talking Abram I took a look at a couple of his scouting reports. A few snippets that jumped out:
• Unlikely to handle coverage duties on the backend (or as Da Raiders said, "guy does not cover for ####."
)
• Edgy playing style lacks control at times (boy, ain't that the truth...)
• Very tough and very competitive
• Plays like an extra linebacker (someone on the board mentioned a little while back about making him a linebacker. The Raiders need linebackers...
)
• Has size and strength to match on tight ends unless they're Travis Kelce (I may have edited that one a little)
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/johnathan-abram/32194142-5215-9741-f276-aebd8758d3ad
https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2019jabram.php
• Unlikely to handle coverage duties on the backend (or as Da Raiders said, "guy does not cover for ####."
)• Edgy playing style lacks control at times (boy, ain't that the truth...)
• Very tough and very competitive
• Plays like an extra linebacker (someone on the board mentioned a little while back about making him a linebacker. The Raiders need linebackers...
)• Has size and strength to match on tight ends unless they're Travis Kelce (I may have edited that one a little)
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/johnathan-abram/32194142-5215-9741-f276-aebd8758d3ad
https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2019jabram.php
Ed Wood
Footballguy
Haha! Even in his better days Gruden had an act that wears on people I seem to recall. But he's certainly not alone in that. A lot of coaches in a lot of sports through the years have that label.I mentioned this when they hired gruden. i don't think he gets the young kids, that are today's game. all the screaming and funny faces, doesn't hold much water with kids these days. at least, that's what mine tells me.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
@Stompin' Tom ConnorsCarr trade rumors are heating up. Any thoughts or feelings about the possibility of Carr going?
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I don't buy it. We would need to land Watson for this to make any sense. Is it worth it? Yes, I believe Watson > Carr but by how much? And does that difference between them make the difference we need? How long would Watson need to really grasp the more complicated offense? But most importantly, how much do we need to give up to make that happen?
Who is going to give us the trade capital we need to get Watson? I mean, if a team is going to cough up two 1st rounders for Carr then why not go a little further and make the play for Watson?
This all feels to me off season click bait and idle hands.
I would be willing to bet that even after Watson's future is decided that there will be more trade rumors that amount to nothing with Carr. Why? Again, click bait and idle hands plus bias against Carr.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
ICON211
Footballguy
YES. I could not accept that offer fast enough. Two more first round picks and $20M to use on the defense seems like a no brainer to me.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I know my thoughts in here are the devil....and this is going to sound really Chief's homerish.....but I don't really think any QB worth their salt wants any part of coming to the AFC west.....if you were Watson, would you want to go to the same division as Mahomes for the next 10 years....? really?...and possibly fighting for at best a wild card spot most years.....?...of course the natural response is to puff out and pound the chest and say " I want to play against the best and beat the best, etc"....and they aren't going to be that good for that long, they can't keep everybody etc....but we all know that bravado ends up being a bunch of crap most of the time when the rubber hits the road...but this is also a business decision at some point.....I think players do factor in who else is in the division and the easiest "path" to winning sometimes and what that means for their career and future $$$....whether thats in FA or whatever...can almost bet LVR, LAC, and DEN were the first teams crossed off of Brady's list...
I live in CO and Bronco fans/radio think they can go get him too...Watson has the no trade, so he has a little leverage in this....so LVR or DEN would have to give HOU a deal so much better than anybody else to where HOU tells Watson "this offer is so good you either agree to go to DEN or LVR or we aren't trading you".....my gut says Watson to the Jets is a done deal.....now the bigger question for LVR is how does Carr deal with this revelation that LVR would like to upgrade and move on from him even after his "great" year...but he should be used to it as it seems he has probably heard these things most every year of his career...
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I like Carr over Marriota but the defense needs so much help that I would not pass up the deal to obtain those draft picks.
I cant imagine any team giving up 2 first round picks for Carr.
joey
Footballguy
I say no for 2 reasons:
- Carr is a main part of the reason why our offense is NOT the problem we need to solve (besides the WR situation)
- our record with first round picks doesn’t instill hope in me to turn these 2 1st rounders into anything close to the known quantity that Carr is.
kaso
Footballguy
Watson > Carr, no argument. It gets muddied to pick a side on that "or" statement when taking into account the compensation that would need to be added to get that deal done. Now if you could guarantee that Watson could bring 10 sacks, 4 ints and a great 3rd down presence at the LBer position, than you'd have my attention.
Carr >>> 2 First round picks. I have no interest in starting down the Marcus path.
Carr >>> 2 First round picks. I have no interest in starting down the Marcus path.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I was trying really hard NOT to bring this up. I think I annoyed Stompin Tom and he left with my constant complaining about the last few draftsjoey said:
Carr is a good QB but the D needs serious help. If Gruden will make draft picks based on what most of the evaluators think instead of his flawed thinking, the Raiders could have better and acceptable drafts The D would be improved in 2-3 years. There are too many holes to fill for the D to improve over one season.
Carr isn’t going to play any better. The O isn’t going to play any better. If the D doesn’t make a big improvement, the team is 8-8 most seasons and 10-6 at best. Some seasons the Raiders may sneak into the playoffs but aren’t even making it to the AFC championship with a good O and the current or slightly improved D. I say swing for the fences with Mariotta and the draft picks.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Not a Mayock/Gruden pick but Rolando McClain was the "most evaluaters" thought and was what everyone said they should do.... how did that pan out?
It is way too early to judge last years draft and the year before that was pretty dang good from the looks of it. (Though I know people will poo poo the class).
Did you watch Mariota play with the Titans? If you think he will keep the offense a top ten offense... then I am not sure we are talking the same sport.
This logic makes no sense to me... let's trade the QB that lead a top ten offense that another team will give two 1st round picks for becausehe sucks (cause the team giving up their future apparently think he doesn't suck?) and go with a clearly inferior QB and take more picks on guys who will suck because Gruden sucks at drafting.
Huh?
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
That reported trade rumor that the Skins might give up 2 first rounders for Carr and then you guys flip those 2 and 2 1sts of your own for Watson is bonkers.
I don’t know what beat writer out there was reporting that one, but it seems crazy. The Skins already balked at giving up two 1sts for Stafford, they aren’t going to do that for Carr. I can’t see that happening.
I don’t know what beat writer out there was reporting that one, but it seems crazy. The Skins already balked at giving up two 1sts for Stafford, they aren’t going to do that for Carr. I can’t see that happening.
ICON211
Footballguy
I did watch Mariota play with the Titans. I also watched Ryan Tannehill play with the Dolphins. Maybe Mariota would be the same guy he was with the Titans, but there is also a chance that the change of scenery and Gruden could elevate his play. It was only one game, but I liked what I saw last year. The thing I liked most was the game and plays Gruden called that were tailored to his strengths.
That logic makes not sense because that is not the logic of why to trade Carr.
No one is saying Carr sucks. I don't understand why it's not possible to say he is just a good QB. Somehow saying he is a good QB is equated with saying he sucks.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I can live with making the right draft pick and having that pick be a miss. It’s good to see the right process because the chances of hitting correctly on draft picks increases. I cannot stand to watch the constant reaching for draft picks. The future looks very dim when most draft picks shouldn’t have been made in the first place and they are off the team in a couple of years (or months with Bowden).
Carr is a better QB than Mariotta but how does the team become playoff caliber with Carr and limited draft capital? It takes Gruden about 6 picks or one draft class to land a starter. We need 5 new starters on D. Now. We still need that WR1 and the Oline is getting older. We can stay with Carr and be average or roll the dice with Mariotta and obtain some desperately needed picks. Who cares if we miss the playoffs at 8-8 or 4-12? You are either one of the top 2-3 teams in the AFC and in the SB hunt or you don’t matter.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Carr > Mariota
We can't win with Carr because he is only good. Less go with a lesser QB and then we will win.
Yea... still not buying it.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
It just doesn't make sense to downgrade from a top ten QB to get nothing in return since it seems those who want to do this trade also are of the opinion we can't draft. If we can't draft why do you want more picks?
It just doesn't make any sense.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Oh... I think you guys got me busy enough with this Carr trade for picks.Time for my Raiders front office takes again?
Carr for ultimately Watson... ok, I can see qnd understand that though I don't think that is possible or at least not for a price that makes sense. This Carr for picks thing though.... you guys are trying me.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
If they can get Watson that would be amazing. They aren't good at choosing in the 1st round anyhow (and nobody is perfect) and a young elite QB is priceless.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
For the record, I don’t think Carr goes anywhere and I am fine with that. I totally agree that he is not the problem. The problem is that there is no way to fill the holes on D, the WR1 is obtained, and the o line is kept at the top by adding one starter from FA and one from the draft each year.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Let’s not run off chad too!
carr is not the problem. He’s not the solution either. The reason it’s tempting to get rid of him, for picks, is because picks/more players, is the solution. This team desperately needs 5+players on d. A wr 1. Some more Oline . To start with.
And I agree with @DocHoliday it’s easier to live with the “correct” pick flaming out, rather than some F’ing reach by Gruden. The crying would be less if they took lamb or juedy And the same could be said, if they took any of the 3 lbs, that went just after arnette. The crying would be about no dB, but at least the pick would have made sense and be solid.
carr is not the problem. He’s not the solution either. The reason it’s tempting to get rid of him, for picks, is because picks/more players, is the solution. This team desperately needs 5+players on d. A wr 1. Some more Oline . To start with.
And I agree with @DocHoliday it’s easier to live with the “correct” pick flaming out, rather than some F’ing reach by Gruden. The crying would be less if they took lamb or juedy And the same could be said, if they took any of the 3 lbs, that went just after arnette. The crying would be about no dB, but at least the pick would have made sense and be solid.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Watson > Carr
But at what cost? We don't need to and shouldn't break the bank for something that isn't broke.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I think some of the holes will be filled with development of our very young team. We can add more talent from the draft. A scheme well executed will go a long way to improving the D and getting better play out of who we have. Offense should only mature and get better as most players are very young. Some questions on the line need to be answered and no reason to not expect our young weapons to improve.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
No... no it isn't. A failed pick is a failed pick. No better or worst living with it.Let’s not run off chad too!
carr is not the problem. He’s not the solution either. The reason it’s tempting to get rid of him, for picks, is because picks/more players, is the solution. This team desperately needs 5+players on d. A wr 1. Some more Oline . To start with.
And I agree with @DocHoliday it’s easier to live with the “correct” pick flaming out, rather than some F’ing reach by Gruden. The crying would be less if they took lamb or juedy And the same could be said, if they took any of the 3 lbs, that went just after arnette. The crying would be about no dB, but at least the pick would have made sense and be solid.
ICON211
Footballguy
Agreed and I would rather have a GM and HC that takes the player they have the highest grade on. If they continually miss they will be out of a job whether it's "reaches" or the consensus pick.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i disagree. i'm not debating if the pick sucked. i'm saying that it's easier to live with a pick that made sense, that fails. splitting hairs. i'm just tired of the raiders, not just gruden, reaching at nearly every pick.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
That is on you then. I don't care if the pick is a reach or of it is what the mob thinks should happen. In the end, I don't care about what I thought or think, I do care about if we get better or not. That is all I care about and I don't care about the warm and fuzzies or lack of on the way.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
fair enough. i guess you could call it mob thinking, i'd prefer to go with common sense.
Ed Wood
Footballguy
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