DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
the jury is still out on ferrell and mullen(both reaches) the rest of the draft is damn good.
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2021 Las Vegas Raiders - PLAYOFFS!!!! (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
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Chadstroma
Footballguy
I don't care who thinks what... a good pick is a player that performs. A bad pick is one who doesn't.
If the Pats picked Tom Brady in the 1st round, people would have gone ape poo crazy about how bad of a pick it would have been but it would have been a great 1st round pick (even when Bledsoe was still there and seen as an good QB). It would have been illogical but it would have been a great pick.
Anyone taken that sucks is a bad pick. I don't care how many people agree with it or think kt was the logical pick.
If a players performs, I don't care how much of a "reach" it was or illogical, it is a good pick.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
The jury isn't out in Ferrell or Mullen.
Ferrell is ranked about 14 or 15th best DE in the league by PFF. He doesn't rack up.the sexy sacks but he is disruptive getting pressures etc and does everything else very well.
Mullen is a starting CB and has shown he deserves to be.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i am talking about justifying draft position. nothing else. they are both solid, to good players. they were both taken "early". so for me, the jury is still out.
eta: if a player is taken "early", they have to live up to that draft position. if jax takes mac jones, he best be better than Lawrence. and he'll always be compared to him. it is what it is,
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
@Chadstromai really appreciate the back and forth!! i love to talk raiders, and this is one of my only outlets.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Oooh, I’ll play. I think your take is mostly correct. The exceptions are generational players. Rather than focusing on specific names, what gives you any confidence that Gruden/Mayock are capable of execution a draft BPA for scheme strategy?
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massraider
Footballguy
Not too many teams have good history drafting well after the 1st round, but the Raiders have the worst history, over the last 20 years or so, of 1st rounders. Of any team, in the NFL.
We are ranked 32 out of 32.
I just saw this somewhere, I forget, and didn't even read it, because I knew it was true.
If you reach in the 1st round, it needs to be a hit. We have reached more than anyone (my opinion) in that time, and not hit.
Come 2nd or 3rd round, and people start saying players are a round early, meh. You don't know. But we know who 1st rounders are. So if you know your guy is a reach, and the Raiders obviously do, then trade down. Mayock and Gruden talk themselves into thinking that everyone else is after their player, who no one else is talking about, and they reach.
We are ranked 32 out of 32.
I just saw this somewhere, I forget, and didn't even read it, because I knew it was true.
If you reach in the 1st round, it needs to be a hit. We have reached more than anyone (my opinion) in that time, and not hit.
Come 2nd or 3rd round, and people start saying players are a round early, meh. You don't know. But we know who 1st rounders are. So if you know your guy is a reach, and the Raiders obviously do, then trade down. Mayock and Gruden talk themselves into thinking that everyone else is after their player, who no one else is talking about, and they reach.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
kaso
Footballguy
How does a Canadian convince one of you locals to ship a bunch of stuff I'll never be able to find here?! haha
massraider
Footballguy
If you decide to be the 20/20 hindsight guy, and go back and look at what they should have done in 2019, the ONLY thing you might say is they should have taken Devin White, and Montez Sweat later.
But DL was clearly the move at #4, whether it was Ed Oliver or Josh Allen.
You lose points on Ferrell if Allen/Burns/Oliver blow up, not if Sweat does. Sweat was a reach there as well.
Where you really can play armchair QB is with the picks taken from Jacobs on. They took Jacobs at 24, and Abrams at 27.
Marquise Brown
Montez Sweat
Jerry Tillery
LJ Collier
Deandre Baker
Kaleb McGary
N'Keal Harry
Byron Murphy
Rock Ya-Sin
Jawaan Taylor
Deebo Samuel
Greg Little
Cody Ford
Those were all the players taken between Jacobs and Trayvon Mullen.
You can make very good arguments about the value of RB and SS i the 1st round, and I agree. In the abstract, I don't want 1st round RB and SS. But in actuality, if you take players at better positions, and they suck, you aren't drafting smart.
There aren't many things they should have done different in 2019 that dob't wind up with them getting bad players at different positions.
rockaction
Footballguy
Was a beast last year. Not that your overall point is diminshed, but he helped ruin games along with Chase Young. Perhaps that was mainly the attention they had to pay to Young, but I think Sweat was a second-year guy who just flourished.
Anyway, reading the thread and that struck me. That's only one noticeable hit out of fourteen, so...
massraider
Footballguy
And he's the one that got away.
Most Raider fans would have gone Allen or White I think at 4. Maybe Burns. I would have gone Ed Oliver probably.
Then the best case scenario is, you take Sweat and Jacobs with your late 1sts.
But only Deebo is a guy I would take over Mullen, let alone Jacobs.
By taking Abrams and Jacobs, hey didn't get premium positions, but it's not like a bunch of studs went after them.
rockaction
Footballguy
Deebo, too. My Sweat got in my eyes while reading, if you know what I mean. Deebo is certainly a guy you can argue for over Mullen. Even Jacobs, because Jacobs strikes me as replacement level while Deebo is a grade above that. But that might be a controversial take on Jacobs.
I've said this before and others in this thread have said this: the Raiders have one winning season in 19 years are where they are right now due to 20 years of bad drafting. The ineptitude to draft talent in logical spots has been this organization's Achilles Heel no doubt about it. It says a lot when your only perennial Pro Bowler of the 2000's was your punter (Lechler).
All that being said, I'm not about to bury Gruden and Mayock's draft classes yet. Yes, Ferrell, Abram and Arnett can be considered reaches. But they barely have one season under their belts. And Ferrell is a much better player than anyone gives him credit for. When he was injured last year, he was clearly missed.
And I don't get all the Trayvon Mullen hate on here. How many 2nd round corners have been drafted to be day 1 starters? Without doing any research, I can only think of one; Mullen. That position, more than any other, is going to have growing pains and to his credit, Mullen has held his own on his Island. As far as I'm concerned, that's a great draft pick.
All that being said, I'm not about to bury Gruden and Mayock's draft classes yet. Yes, Ferrell, Abram and Arnett can be considered reaches. But they barely have one season under their belts. And Ferrell is a much better player than anyone gives him credit for. When he was injured last year, he was clearly missed.
And I don't get all the Trayvon Mullen hate on here. How many 2nd round corners have been drafted to be day 1 starters? Without doing any research, I can only think of one; Mullen. That position, more than any other, is going to have growing pains and to his credit, Mullen has held his own on his Island. As far as I'm concerned, that's a great draft pick.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
If Grudens drafts have been as good as some of you think, the playoffs are likely this season.
The offense is there, as long as the changes on the Oline pan out.
Now if Gus can get the defense turned around they have a chance to get into the playoffs. And they need game changers on D (Yannick and hopefully Parsons or JOK)
In fairness to Gruden, they are competitive in their division, that's half the battle. He knows how to beat the Chiefs and other teams around the league have copied his gameplan against them.
massraider
Footballguy
Names I want to drop so I look smart if we take them:
Stone Forsythe
Tommy Doyle
D'Ante Smith
We should do a little Raider questionnaire before the daft, call your shots for the Raider picks, etc. One of these guys would be a great call for Raiders 1st or 2nd round reach. All of these guys have Kolton Miller-like metrics. Arm length to hand size to agility. Probably none of them go in the 1st round, and Raiders have three Day 2 picks. I think it's more than fair to expect two of the first four picks to be OL. I would be pretty excited by any of these guys, reach or not.
- There's 4 OTs that fit the developmental, sit for a year under Cable type guy, they all look like Raider picks to me.
Stone Forsythe
Tommy Doyle
D'Ante Smith
We should do a little Raider questionnaire before the daft, call your shots for the Raider picks, etc. One of these guys would be a great call for Raiders 1st or 2nd round reach. All of these guys have Kolton Miller-like metrics. Arm length to hand size to agility. Probably none of them go in the 1st round, and Raiders have three Day 2 picks. I think it's more than fair to expect two of the first four picks to be OL. I would be pretty excited by any of these guys, reach or not.
- I would be totally in favor of a surprise 2nd or 3rd round BPA pick, if that guy happens to be a TE. Moreau and Carrier are fine, but if Freiermuth is there at #48, that would be a very good pick, to my mind. Later guys like Long and Jordan could be really nice complements to Waller in two TE sets.
- OG David Moore from Grambling. He's like 6'1, 350 pounds, and carries it well. Played C and OG at Senior Bowl, look him up. Reminds me of that guy the Pats drafted from Georgia Tech, Shaq Mason. He was an animal coming out, everyone knew it, and still goes in the 6th round. OG that maybe is a C? That fits this team's needs better than a Tokyo condom. You couldn't ask for more.
- If you are a DL fanboy, like I am, this draft is going to play out in an annoying manner. There's going to be some cool EDGE names every round of the draft. And I think the Raiders will pass on them, because we have the crowded roster. Milton Williams looks like an inside guy can can play outside, and feels like a Raider guy.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
?....Gruden is 1-5 against the Chiefs and the Chiefs won 10 straight after the one score loss to the Raiders....would have been 11 had they not already clinched the #1 seed and sat all their starters in the last game against LAC...they then won two more playoff games before losing in the super bowl.....copying....?.... Not sure either part of that statement is true.
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Watch for T Jackson Carman in the 2nd round as well. He's a mountain of a man who projects well at RT. And it doesn't hurt that he's a Clemson prospect either. I'm sure when they were scouting Simpson last year Carman popped up on their radar back then.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
ICON211
Footballguy
I wanted Josh Allen badly at 4 and my second choice would have been Oliver. I still like what I have seen from Ferrell at times. I'm still hopeful on him.
I think the guys I want most at 17 are JOK then Barmore. I don't think Parsons will be there. I also like Zaven Collins and Jamin Davis.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Justify the position or not. In the end, all the matters is if the guys on the field are playing well or are a waste of a pick. All that a higher picks really means when you boil it down is that you have more people to choose from. In the end, either a pick was a good pick or not. And pretty much every pick is not a perfect pick if you look at "who you could have got" game as there will always be 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounders etc that outshine some 1st rounders.i am talking about justifying draft position. nothing else. they are both solid, to good players. they were both taken "early". so for me, the jury is still out.
eta: if a player is taken "early", they have to live up to that draft position. if jax takes mac jones, he best be better than Lawrence. and he'll always be compared to him. it is what it is,
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I believe we are a playoff bubble team. I only say bubble because having the Chefs in our division means it will be dang hard to win the division and the AFC is the deeper conference. That being said, before the draft, our offense on the whole should improve: Offensive line unsettled a bit but nothing more than what is was last year and they performed. Development of the young kids at WR and Brown > Agholar. Defense has been greatly upgraded with new additions and more importantly a new DC. I expect the new guys not only to do better but to get more out of a guy like Littleton. If you forced me to make a bet, I would bet we make the playoffs this year but I think it will be close and that is more about the other teams than us.
ICON211
Footballguy
Offensive line name to remember for after round 1 - Quinn Meinerz. He's a D3 prospect that looks very interesting.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
I’m not playing who they could have gotten. Like megatron. I’m simply pointing out what the logical pick should have been. I’m sick of the hideous drafts. 2019 not included.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Very strange. And now they need a DL F’ing gruden. I don’t think he gets, or gets along with today’s young players. Unless their old school grinders
Are those 2019 draft picks.
massraider
Footballguy
Bummer, but fine with both getting cut.
.5 sacks last year from Hurst, in his 3rd year, I think we can replace that.
.5 sacks last year from Hurst, in his 3rd year, I think we can replace that.
joey
Footballguy
Yeah, I think those of us who are anti-Raider-draft selections maybe have a more "wisdom of the crowds" POV on how to draft. Sure, it’s not perfect, but if enough "experts" who do this for a living rank players a certain way, does it make sense to always go against the grain?
im in the same boat as others with the McClain and even Gallery picks. They were "can't miss" obvious picks for the Raiders who didn’t pan out, but I was fine with it cuz there are always busts. But when you consistently do things like pass on the Lambs of the world for the next ranked players...well, it seems to lead to exactly what we've been living for the past 20 years. The proof is in the results, honestly.
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Key did nothing.
Hurst showed some but never what we hoped for. Solomon Thomas' floor can replace what we saw out of him over the last 3 years and he has a much higher ceiling.
massraider
Footballguy
We got more out of that 5th round pick for Hurst than most 5th rounders. Totally worth the risk. But he never was impactful. He was just a guy.
Thank god Miller was a hit, and of course it was the most unpopular pick of all of Gruden/Mayock.
The next picks were PJ Hall/Brandon Parker/Arden Key. Same thing with 2019, someone tell me all the guys they would have taken instead. We could have grabbed a Jerome Baker or a Fred Warner, but the rest of the players in this rang sucked.
http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2018
You can find better picks, but it's not easy.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
One thing that is funny about Miller... we keep hearing about how you DON'T pick safeties in the 1st (a shot at Abram and an example of Mayock/Gruden not knowing how to draft) but the pick everyone wanted instead was Derwin James (just a reminder... he is a S).massraider said:
But yea, there is a whole lot of non-factor players. Looking at that draft it really was a weak year.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Just let me know. Pm me so we can set it up
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Signed CB Rasul Douglas
SDJohnny
Footballguy
https://www.si.com/college/westvirginia/mountaineers-in-the-pros/former-wvu-cb-rasul-douglas-gaining-major-interest-in-nfl-free-agency
Not sure why it took him so long to sign. Still young, Good Height, 6-2. We'll see.
Can't have enough corners these days. Nice depth acquisition and should be an upgrade over Lawson.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
The talk about QBs being drafted early and often continues. Saw somewhere that 5 QBs could be drafted in the top 10, Two or 3 WRs are likely to go in the top 12 too. What sweet music to my ears.
I know I said this before but the Raiders will be sitting pretty at 17. A day 1 starter will be there. The latest CB FA signing is a good sign too. Not sure how good the player is but CB is definitely a position of need. Also, that should be another position that Gruden doesn’t feel like he must reach for in round 1.
I know I said this before but the Raiders will be sitting pretty at 17. A day 1 starter will be there. The latest CB FA signing is a good sign too. Not sure how good the player is but CB is definitely a position of need. Also, that should be another position that Gruden doesn’t feel like he must reach for in round 1.
Silver & Black
Footballguy
I saw one mock draft that has Parsons falling to us. I think I would spontaneously combust if that happens!
kaso
Footballguy
In some Raider news circles, it seems like there is a belief/thought/hunch that the Raiders wouldn't pick him even if available at 17. So don't combust too soon!
DocHolliday
Footballguy
What’s the reasoning?kaso said:
kaso
Footballguy
Off the field concerns related the hazing (makes some sense), the Raiders track record of not taking the 'consensus' BPA (makes a bit less sense, but has legs), and one claim of since they had reports of interest in Kenneth Murray last year but passed on him in favor of Arnette (a stretch in logic imo).
Silver & Black
Footballguy
Parsons is a monster and would be an instant injection of life into our defense. A lot of people like us taking OL at 17 and many really love the kid from Notre Dame, Koramoah.
To me, if Parsons is there at 17 we'd be crazy not to take him.
To me, if Parsons is there at 17 we'd be crazy not to take him.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i've been saying the same for weeks. i don't think parsons will fall. my call has been JoK, or OL. which makes the most sense. so i fully expect a qb or a k/p
i really hope they don't take a db at 17. which almost guarantees it 
kaso
Footballguy
After spending sometime looking for a mock draft tracker, I broke down and took a few mins to pull together the 'experts' picks for the Raiders @ 17.
Side note: If you haven't been to SI's website recently, it's horrible.
Side note: If you haven't been to SI's website recently, it's horrible.
Code:
Source Expert Player POS
nfl.com Schrager M. Parsons LB
nfl.com Davis J. Owusu-Koramoah LB
nfl.com Casserly T. Jenkins OT
nfl.com Jones-Drew J. Owusu-Koramoah LB
nfl.com Jeremiah J. Owusu-Koramoah LB
nfl.com Frelund M. Parsons LB
nfl.com Zierlein C. Barmore DT
nfl.com Reuter C. Darrisaw OT
nfl.com Brooks J. Owusu-Koramoah LB
ESPN Kiper T. Moehrig S
ESPN Kiper A. Vera-Tucker OT/G
ESPN McShay T. Moehrig S
SI Vrentas A. Vera-Tucker OT/G
SI Fabiano M. Parsons LB
CBS Trapasso J. Davis LB
CBS Wilson M. Parsons LB
CBS Edwards T. Marshall JR WR
CBS Prisco A. Vera-Tucker OT/G
PFN Tanier C. Farley CB
PFF Palazzolo C. Newswome II CB
PFF Monson C. Farley CB
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kaso
Footballguy
Some random comments I caught during the Mike Mayock Facebook Live session this afternoon:
None of these are direct quotes.
None of these are direct quotes.
- Being at 17 means you need to be willing to move up to get a guy slipping or be flexible to drop out if value isn't there at 17. Need to be nimble.
- @ RT, excited about Jaryd Jones-Smith (recent signing)
- Wants to be able to take best player available, but aware of needs.
- Energized by changes made to the OL. See's Kolton Miller as a cornerstone. Happy to show the team they want to resign their own players. Thinks that Andre James can compete at center. Excited with what the OL room looks like. Respects players who have left, but made a conscious decision to get younger and a bit more athletic.
- Doesn't like the zoom meetings, would rather have time to meet the kids. Happy to have been able to partake in pro-days. No medicals like years past with combine visits, medical grades are still trickling in.
- Thought Heath did a good job at FS last year, but always looking for competition. FS talent available in first 3 rounds in the draft.
- When asked about College Opt Outs, he said each case is different. Some were forced in to opt-outs (Pack 10, for example). Lots of complexities with students who had may have hired an agent thinking they wouldn't be returning to college football.
- Getting fans into the stands is important. Wants home field advantage.
- Recruiting and gathering information from small schools has gotten harder over the last 2 years due to covid.
- Have made a conscious effort to get faster on D.
- Really missing the 30 visits (30 players into your building for a day each).
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Chadstroma
Footballguy
You allllllllmost made it through the post without being negative.DocHolliday said:
Chadstroma
Footballguy
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