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A Note For Conservatives And Christians About Capitol Riot


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This is a bit encouraging (and I know a few of the leaders there). 

TLDR this is a Bible church calling out and condemning ‘Christian nationalism’ and the sin of using Jesus and Christianity in the manner in which many of the protesters used it on January 6.
 

https://m.facebook.com/EvanstonBible/photos/a.2621510124527771/4027246013954168/?type=3

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This is part of the problem Joe.  Your friend has a good message.  He sounds like a terrific guy.  But he's parroting lies from conservative media.  He thinks this is a message of healing but it's sti

Our country has been building up to that moment yesterday for four years.  People have been warning how dangerous Trump is and frequently laughed at or ridiculed during that time by many folks on Jaso

You have spoken eloquently about how irresponsible it is to put words in others’ mouths.  And here you are making a horribly, objectively, inflammatory untrue statement about a large group of people b

8 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

This is a bit encouraging (and I know a few of the leaders there). 

TLDR this is a Bible church calling out and condemning ‘Christian nationalism’ and the sin of using Jesus and Christianity in the manner in which many of the protesters used it on January 6.
 

https://m.facebook.com/EvanstonBible/photos/a.2621510124527771/4027246013954168/?type=3

Is there another link that shows them doing that, because the one you used doesn't.

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37 minutes ago, Death Bytes said:

Is there another link that shows them doing that, because the one you used doesn't.

Sorry, I’m not very good at posting Facebook links apparently. It’s like or post down on their main page it’s a two page letter.It’s like or post down on their main page it’s a two page letter.

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2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Understood.

But in my experience, it's pretty rare for a conversation to stay completely within the bounds of exclusively what I believe.

After one or two points, it almost always goes to what a group is doing or how they're doing it and what is motivating them. So I think it's inevitable. And in that case, I think it's wise to be as charitable as possible in assuming what others believe. That can be problematic though. 

I can go all day on beliefs and discussing them as long as we stay on topic.  I guess I'm lucky...my friends will do that.  But as soon as it veers from topic intentionally (and it's pretty easy to tell...happens here all the time) I bow out and switch to something else.  My goal in all those discussions is to always show that there is a choice C or D or E....not that they have to agree with MY choice.  We have to stop feeding the beast if we want it to shrivel and die.

This is the first election ever I have voted for a D or R for ANY federal/state office...ever.  And I did it purely for moral purposes based on what I know today not political ones.  The public option is really the ONLY policy of his I agree with in theory.  It seems like the perfect test to see if M4A would work before jumping all in on it.  I don't agree with Biden on a great many things, but it's my belief that he looks at things from a perspective of the country and not what works for him personally.  I might disagree with him on his vision, but I believe it's coming from the right place and we have to start somewhere given this last 12 years of obstruction and doing what's best for individuals in lieu of what's right for the country.  For that, I will be labeled (have been labeled) a "leftist" "socialist" etc etc.

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

That’s exactly what I’m saying.  I also know the left will never do that (I’m also against open borders and globalization).  The right says it but doesn’t always deliver. .  To be fair, our business has been much better under trump than the eight years of Obama. 

Congrats...you're the first person I've ever run into who has said this and I completely believe you.  It's refreshing to hear honestly :hifive: 

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

Congrats...you're the first person I've ever run into who has said this and I completely believe you.  It's refreshing to hear honestly :hifive: 

FUnny as I catch all sorts of flak for not voting Trump.   I thought he was the worst in a crisis and its proven true.  He's your man when things are going well.  A year ago, he was a lock to win re-election IMO.  

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3 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Agreed. I think a great many people would see it that way.

And truthfully, I can see parts of that too.

The argument, "You're ok casting a vote for someone like that. You've enabled him and you tolerate a racist and you knowingly voted for a racist therefore you are responsible for your vote" is not a weak argument. 

FWIW...this is the ONLY argument I've ever made here with regard to Trump and his supporters.  I even give them a pass on the first vote for him.  Perhaps I am naive, but I never in a million years thought Trump actually meant what he was saying during the 2016 cycle.  I thought it was unabashed, sloppy pandering to a fringe contingent of people to get their vote and dismissed it as such.  I was wrong.

That said, I HAVE seen that argument made here by people.  I don't think it's as many as you'd think...which all ties into my comments before about staying on topic and reading words for what they are and not ascribing preconceived notions onto someone because one assumes they are on the other "side".

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3 hours ago, bigbottom said:

This is likely a more common view of Trump detractors that post here. 

And it's CONSTANTLY met with "so I'm a racist because I voted for Trump....neat board" kinds of posts.

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3 hours ago, That one guy said:

This is sad to see, honestly.  I knew the divide was large, but if this is the starting point we have a lot of work to do.  I don’t believe Trump supporters are racists, I don’t believe he’s a racist if I’m being honest (though I’ve always claimed that term needs a much higher standard of evidence and prejudice should be the more common term).  

Thanks for the post. And I agree with you on needing the discourse.

I'm interested, how many folks here agree with this statement that Trump is not a racist? 

That has a significant impact on how one would view the people who voted for him. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 4:49 PM, Death Bytes said:

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that a large portion of the population is hungry for reason, and of course it won't be found from an opinion that starts from a position lacking reason (faith). 

:sigh:

Faith doesn't lack reason, it just bases that reason on a different set of assumptions.  Those assumptions are unprovable, but so is every other basis of assumptions for why we exist, where life comes from, what we are and where we come from.

To say we "lack reason" is loaded with the idea that we shut off our brains and believe things that are proven false.

As for the initial issue started by JB, I wholeheartedly agree that us Christians in the US need to do a better job of acting out of love and grace, which includes how we use our political support.

Despite aligning with the Republican Party for the most part, I didn't vote for Trump in any primary or general election.  However, I was very quiet about that in real life as my family and most friends were ardant Trump supporters.  I regret that and want to be a little more engaged in what I see are candidates with moral issues going forward.

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4 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

For what it's worth, I asked my friend this yesterday. He's a smart attorney and into political wonkiness. Very staunch conservative.

I asked him that directly. I said, "My message board guys think because you voted for Trump, you're a racist bigot who enjoys inflicting pain on minorities. I tell them you voted for Trump as lesser of two bad choices but they then always ask about the primaries.”

You have spoken eloquently about how irresponsible it is to put words in others’ mouths.  And here you are making a horribly, objectively, inflammatory untrue statement about a large group of people behind their backs and no means to defend themselves against your untrue words.  
 

People here have gone out of their way to say the opposite of your claim.  Many times over the course of years.  
 

You should go back to your friend and tell him what you said was false and apologize to everyone here for portraying them falsely like you did right here.  
 

You preach a lot about the importance of healing and moving forward.  You are an impediment to progress when you spread lies like these.

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23 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the post. And I agree with you on needing the discourse.

I'm interested, how many folks here agree with this statement that Trump is not a racist? 

That has a significant impact on how one would view the people who voted for him. 

I don't know if Trump is racist or not.  Many of his policies are, but that could be unintentional.  I suspect he's less racist than he just doesn't care about others at all.

As to how I view those that voted for him, it's simple.  They have enabled a bad man, regardless of why they voted the way they did.

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37 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the post. And I agree with you on needing the discourse.

I'm interested, how many folks here agree with this statement that Trump is not a racist? 

That has a significant impact on how one would view the people who voted for him. 

I don't think he is, but I thought he should have held rallies in more urban areas.  

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49 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I don't think he is, but I thought he should have held rallies in more urban areas.  

I identify with this statement too.

The problem is that "racism" has been used so often to describe anyone who disagrees with the left that any questioning - no matter how innocuous - of the liberal race talking points automatically labels you a racist and then the mob descends on you.  That's why we can't have honest discussions about race - because the left doesn't want to hear them.

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37 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I identify with this statement too.

The problem is that "racism" has been used so often to describe anyone who disagrees with the left that any questioning - no matter how innocuous - of the liberal race talking points automatically labels you a racist and then the mob descends on you.  That's why we can't have honest discussions about race - because the left doesn't want to hear them.

I can’t say what’s in Trump’s heart but between the housing discrimination claims brought against Trump by the federal government, the insight of this long-time Trump Org VP, and a host of other stories, I would say that any claims that Trump is a racist is based on more than him simply disagreeing with the left. But outside of Trump, I can see your point that it’s difficult to have honest discussions about race. 

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2 hours ago, Ferris Bueller Fan said:

You have spoken eloquently about how irresponsible it is to put words in others’ mouths.  And here you are making a horribly, objectively, inflammatory untrue statement about a large group of people behind their backs and no means to defend themselves against your untrue words.  People here have gone out of their way to say the opposite of your claim. Many times over the course of years.  
You should go back to your friend and tell him what you said was false and apologize to everyone here for portraying them falsely like you did right here.  You preach a lot about the importance of healing and moving forward.  You are an impediment to progress when you spread lies like these.

Thanks for the feedback.

I will let my friend know you folks don't feel like that.

I still very much believe the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez "Republicans running their torture project" and the Atlantic "The Cruelty is the point" and Jemele Hill's "If you voted for Trump, you're a racist. No wiggle room" are mainstream opinions. That's not a "lie" as you accuse me of. That's my opinion. Clearly though, I was mistaken on how many people think that here. I apologize. As I said before, I'll be happy to be wrong. 

Healing and moving forward is something I'm very much interested in. And part of that is understanding the divide. I'm sorry if you think that's "preaching". 

Hopefully we can do more of that. 

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1 hour ago, Rich Conway said:

I don't know if Trump is racist or not.  Many of his policies are, but that could be unintentional.  I suspect he's less racist than he just doesn't care about others at all.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The good thing is we needn’t debate if Trump is racist any longer. It doesn’t matter. 

I think it does matter. As I said, this connects to the people who voted for him.

 

Edited by Joe Bryant
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On 1/7/2021 at 9:21 AM, Joe Bryant said:

So...this is not great. "Knoxville" is trending on Twitter. Because of this. https://twitter.com/xy467chr/status/1346967957302292481?s=20

Shake my head. I'm embarrassed for my city that I love.

On the upside, we still have the Sunsphere. And a next door neighbor claim to Dolly Parton. 

But Elizabeth stings.

Didn't read this whole thread, but as a conservative from Alabama I see one guy from about an hour up the road was the one with jars of napalm.

:Shakes head:  Complete embarrassment.

Seriously - change is effected in a voting booth.  

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think it does matter. As I said, this connects to the people who voted for him.

 

It doesn’t anymore. 
The people you speak of voted for him. That doesn’t mean they’re beholden to his views, or beholden to him. I think we can safely assume that the vast majority of those who voted for Trump aren’t racist, because I don’t believe that millions of Americans are racist. 
Whoever voted for Trump thought they had good reasons to do so. Next time they may have very different reasons to vote for somebody else. We move on. 

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19 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It doesn’t anymore. 
The people you speak of voted for him. That doesn’t mean they’re beholden to his views, or beholden to him. I think we can safely assume that the vast majority of those who voted for Trump aren’t racist, because I don’t believe that millions of Americans are racist. 
Whoever voted for Trump thought they had good reasons to do so. Next time they may have very different reasons to vote for somebody else. We move on. 

As I've noted many times in the last 4 years I liked a lot of the policies that DJT promoted.  I found the individual personally derelict, always have.  Makes for hard choices, for sure.

I'd have much preferred Rubio - my primary pick 4 years ago, to be the R torchbearer.

Edited by Sand
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Just now, Sand said:

As I've noted many times in the last 4 years I liked a lot of the policies that DJT promoted.  I found the individual personally derelict, always have.  Makes for hard choices, for sure.

I'd have much preferred Rubio - my primary pick 8 years ago, to be the R torchbearer.

I think a lot of people feel like you. 

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Just now, Sand said:

As I've noted many times in the last 4 years I liked a lot of the policies that DJT promoted.  I found the individual personally derelict, always have.  Makes for hard choices, for sure.

I'd have much preferred Rubio - my primary pick 8 years ago, to be the R torchbearer.

Nothing wrong with that. I don’t judge anyone who voted for Trump either time. 
If you would vote for him today, after what happened last week, I might judge you a little...

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It doesn’t anymore. 
The people you speak of voted for him. That doesn’t mean they’re beholden to his views, or beholden to him. I think we can safely assume that the vast majority of those who voted for Trump aren’t racist, because I don’t believe that millions of Americans are racist. 
Whoever voted for Trump thought they had good reasons to do so. Next time they may have very different reasons to vote for somebody else. We move on. 

Yeah, I think this is a good approach to take at this point. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Nothing wrong with that. I don’t judge anyone who voted for Trump either time. 
If you would vote for him today, after what happened last week, I might judge you a little...

The thing is what happened this week was so predictable. I’ve been saying on here since before he was even President that he would never peacefully accept an election loss. Nothing that has happened has been difficult to see coming. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the post. And I agree with you on needing the discourse.

I'm interested, how many folks here agree with this statement that Trump is not a racist? 

That has a significant impact on how one would view the people who voted for him. 

Zero clue if he’s a racist.  It really isn’t a relevant question IMO.  
 

Does he use language that caters to racist ideology?   Clearly.  Does he have a history of taking public stances that capitalize on ingrained racism?  (Eg Central Park 5) Clearly.   Does he embrace and encourage racist supporters?  Clearly.

Do those things make him racist?  No.  Do those things mean all or most Trump voters are racist?  No.

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1 minute ago, BigJim® said:

"connects to"?

The people who voted for him.

If we believe the people who voted for him knowingly and willfully voted for someone clearly known to be racist, that's a part of how we move forward.

If we believe people voted for someone clearly known not to be racist, that's also a part. 

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I don’t want to muck up this thread because I know Joe is a good guy and has pure intentions but anyone who voted for Trump who isn’t 100 miles deep into the Q brainwash hole should be doing a lot of soul searching right now and looking back at what they did and why. Think about what kind of man they supported and the danger that put the country in.
 

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

The people who voted for him.

If we believe the people who voted for him knowingly and willfully voted for someone clearly known to be racist, that's a part of how we move forward.

If we believe people voted for someone clearly known not to be racist, that's also a part. 

This seems to me to be an exercise in futility. You’re asking us whether we think he’s racist?  Why does that even matter?  Even if we think he’s racist, maybe your friends who voted for him don’t feel he is, so they didn’t knowingly and willfully vote for someone they knew was racist. At this point, I don’t see how a debate of whether Trump is a racist and whether those who voted for him did so knowing that he was a racist is even remotely productive.

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1 minute ago, bigbottom said:

This seems to me to be an exercise in futility. You’re asking us whether we think he’s racist?  Why does that even matter?  Even if we think he’s racist, maybe your friends who voted for him don’t feel he is, so they didn’t knowingly and willfully vote for someone they knew was racist. At this point, I don’t see how a debate of whether Trump is a racist and whether those who voted for him did so knowing that he was a racist is even remotely productive.

I fully understand if you disagree. I do think opinions like this are relevant as we move forward. If I'm trying to bring groups together, having as much information about how people see things is important. 

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2 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

I don't think your FBG poll would establish what some other general population "knowingly and willfully" did. JMHO. Just a disheartening day of posts from you Joe, TBH. You say you want healing, and then you mention a conversation with your friend depicting the forum as calling your friend a racist. Now you post a poll on racism... to what end? To support that of course your message board peeps must think that? Just weird.

That's discouraging you wouldn't give me any more benefit of the doubt than that. I asked a poll as I'd like to know how the board sees something. No idea what you think that would mean for my "message board peeps". 

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44 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the feedback.

I will let my friend know you folks don't feel like that.

I still very much believe the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez "Republicans running their torture project" and the Atlantic "The Cruelty is the point" and Jemele Hill's "If you voted for Trump, you're a racist. No wiggle room" are mainstream opinions. That's not a "lie" as you accuse me of. That's my opinion. Clearly though, I was mistaken on how many people think that here. I apologize. As I said before, I'll be happy to be wrong. 

Healing and moving forward is something I'm very much interested in. And part of that is understanding the divide. I'm sorry if you think that's "preaching". 

Hopefully we can do more of that. 

The lie was you saying your message board guys think your friend Jason is a racist bigot who enjoys inflicting pain on minorities because he voted for Trump.    

AOC is not one of your message board guys.  The Atlantic is not one of your message board guys.  Jemele Hill is not one of your message board guys.  They have nothing to do with your false claim about what you said your message board guys think.

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10 minutes ago, Ferris Bueller Fan said:

The lie was you saying your message board guys think your friend Jason is a racist bigot who enjoys inflicting pain on minorities because he voted for Trump.    

AOC is not one of your message board guys.  The Atlantic is not one of your message board guys.  Jemele Hill is not one of your message board guys.  They have nothing to do with your false claim about what you said your message board guys think.

Of course not. It's my opinion our folks agree with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or the Atlantic or Jemele Hill. Not all of them of course. All of our posters don't totally agree on anything. If I'm wrong about that, I'm glad to be wrong about that. I apologized for being wrong. 

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24 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

I don't think your FBG poll would establish what some other general population "knowingly and willfully" did. JMHO. Just a disheartening day of posts from you Joe, TBH. You say you want healing, and then you mention a conversation with your friend depicting the forum as calling your friend a racist. Now you post a poll on racism... to what end? To support that of course your message board peeps must think that? Just weird.

Thank you.  

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12 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

That's discouraging you wouldn't give me any more benefit of the doubt than that. I asked a poll as I'd like to know how the board sees something. No idea what you think that would mean for my "message board peeps". 

Considering you just got done saying your message board peeps think if you voted for Trump you’re a racist bigot who enjoys inflicting pain on minorities despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, perhaps pumping the brakes on complaints about getting the benefit of the doubt might be in order.  
 

There’s a 50-year fact pattern of racist actions by Trump in his personal, professional, and political life.  Racists consider Trump a staunch ally, and enemies of systemic racism consider Trump a protector of systemic racism.  If Trump isn’t a racist, he’s done an excellent job over the past half-century convincing the world he is one.  

None of this means Trump voters are racists, too.  It does mean they evaluated Trump’s racism and decided it wasn’t a dealbreaker to get the other things they wanted, but it doesn’t make them racists.  
 

There’s a more nuanced discussion to be had  here about response to racism being on a spectrum from Ally to Enemy.  IMO it’s tough to say a two-time Trump voter is an enemy of racism given how many other options were available.  It doesn’t make you a racist, but you did take the side the racists took twice.  So what other actions have you taken to differentiate yourself from the allies of racism?  If you were accused of being an enemy of racism, what evidence from your actions can you provide to get a conviction?

 

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3 hours ago, Jayrod said:

:sigh:

Faith doesn't lack reason, it just bases that reason on a different set of assumptions.  Those assumptions are unprovable, but so is every other basis of assumptions for why we exist, where life comes from, what we are and where we come from.

To say we "lack reason" is loaded with the idea that we shut off our brains and believe things that are proven false.

 

That doesn't change the fact that people aren't hungry for that. If someone is hungry for meat, and you try to feed them a veggie burger, their disappointment does not make you the victim (aka people just don't want to listen to us). Their hunger isn't satisfied by your set of assumptions, 99% of the time because they've already heard it before, numerous times. 

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15 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'll close the poll. Apologies if I've been out of line today. 

Hasn't been a great week. 

It was instructive to see how you feel about your community and what you’re comfortable saying about it when no one from it is around.  

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13 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'll close the poll. Apologies if I've been out of line today. 

Hasn't been a great week. 

Honestly Joe, you seem kind of passive-aggressive lately (says me, Mister Snarky-Aggressive), and I was hinting around this earlier, where  you were pushing for grace while deemphasizing repentance.  

... and you really did throw your "boardroom" under the bus in your conversation with your friend. On a left-right spectrum, 80% of the people here fall +-10% of dead center (or maybe +-15%, but the point remains).

Edited by Mister CIA
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31 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I asked a poll as I'd like to know how the board sees something. 

Here's my concern. Let's say 70% of FBGs believe that Trump is a racist. That outcome will not 'connect to' friends of mine who may have voted for Trump. I haven't talked to many since 2020 elections due to covid, but I know what motivated them in 2016. Many are conservatives who vote 401K/taxes, and ignore everything else. Many are anti lefty-wingnut. Some probably intake news from different sources/biases, and simply believe Trump when he says he's not. I don't think the personal opinions of a cross section of FBGs on racism is helpful describing my friends.

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18 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'll close the poll. Apologies if I've been out of line today. 

Hasn't been a great week. 

I don’t really think you did anything wrong.  🤷‍♂️
Could you have been more precise with language?  I don’t know, maybe.

But really, people need to take a deep breath.  I appreciate that you are trying to reach out to people and understand what is going on in their psyche.  It’s a big part of developing and nurturing empathy.

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2 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

I don’t really think you did anything wrong.  🤷‍♂️
Could you have been more precise with language?  I don’t know, maybe.

But really, people need to take a deep breath.  I appreciate that you are trying to reach out to people and understand what is going on in their psyche.  It’s a big part of developing and nurturing empathy.

Joe is definitely extending his neck out.  I should probably be more appreciative.

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1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

I don’t want to muck up this thread because I know Joe is a good guy and has pure intentions but anyone who voted for Trump who isn’t 100 miles deep into the Q brainwash hole should be doing a lot of soul searching right now and looking back at what they did and why. Think about what kind of man they supported and the danger that put the country in.
 

But abortion and judges. Not kidding. That’s the answer. Maybe immigration. And probably a generalized culture war reason sprinkled in. 

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20 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

But abortion and judges. Not kidding. That’s the answer. Maybe immigration. And probably a generalized culture war reason sprinkled in. 

Yeah if you voted for Trump for moral reasons like abortion you should definitely be thinking hard about this. Trump was an immoral choice IMO.

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5 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Yeah if you voted for Trump for moral reasons like abortion you should definitely be thinking hard about this. Trump was an immoral choice IMO.

I don’t disagree. Just sharing what I hear. 

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From the OP..

"Political conservatives in the United States have never been people who engage in political acts of violence to maintain or seize power. "

 

That's where ya lost me. Literally the Civil War? I'm not sure diving into the rest of this is viable, but this is simply not grasping history. The above has happened. Alot.

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9 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think it does matter. As I said, this connects to the people who voted for him.

 

No. Not really. Surprised to see you take this tired angle.  People vote with their pocketbook. I don’t give a crap who it is as long as my capitol gains tax stays at 15%.
If that makes me a lesser person for  taking care of my family then so be it. It doesn’t make me racist because they guy who I voted for has more economic sense than the socialist alternative. 

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