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A Note For Conservatives And Christians About Capitol Riot


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1 minute ago, 36Kevon said:

No. Not really. Surprised to see you take this tired angle.  People vote with their pocketbook. I don’t give a crap who it is as long as my capitol gains tax stays at 15%.
If that makes me a lesser person for  taking care of my family then so be it. It doesn’t make me racist because they guy who I voted for has more economic sense than the socialist alternative. 

Some people are little more evolved than that.

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17 minutes ago, 36Kevon said:

No. Not really. Surprised to see you take this tired angle.  People vote with their pocketbook. I don’t give a crap who it is as long as my capitol gains tax stays at 15%.
If that makes me a lesser person for  taking care of my family then so be it. It doesn’t make me racist because they guy who I voted for has more economic sense than the socialist alternative. 

What makes you think Trump has economic sense?  Serious question.

On your broader point, a friend of mine talks about what he calls the “bass boat theory” of politics.  Basically, the idea is that people vote for whichever politician they think will better help them afford their bass boat.  So if healthcare costs are the scariest thing that might stand in the way of your bass boat....you vote for the person who will bring health care costs in line.  If it is high taxes, you vote for the person who will cut taxes.  Etc.

I really love the theory, especially the name of it.

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7 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

Was neither insult nor sarcasm.

Sorry. I took it as an insult when you said people are more evolved when they are not like me and don’t vote for the best economic outcome for their family. Care to explain?  

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5 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

What makes you think Trump has economic sense?  Serious question.

On your broader point, a friend of mine talks about what he calls the “bass boat theory” of politics.  Basically, the idea is that people vote for whichever politician they think will better help them afford their bass boat.  So if healthcare costs are the scariest thing that might stand in the way of your bass boat....you vote for the person who will bring health care costs in line.  If it is high taxes, you vote for the person who will cut taxes.  Etc.

I really love the theory, especially the name of it.

Boats are one of the worst investments you can make if they aren’t used to provide income.  Worse than cars. 

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2 minutes ago, 36Kevon said:

Sorry. I took it as an insult when you said people are more evolved when they are not like me and don’t vote for the best economic outcome for their family. Care to explain?  

There are people in the world other than you and your family.

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12 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

There are people in the world other than you and your family.

Yes because they protected their genes first, and after that protected the tribe.  I don’t think you understand how evolution works.  Maybe you shouldn’t have brought it up. 

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10 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

The thing is what happened this week was so predictable. I’ve been saying on here since before he was even President that he would never peacefully accept an election loss. Nothing that has happened has been difficult to see coming. 

Some people just didn't want to see.

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13 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I don’t want to muck up this thread because I know Joe is a good guy and has pure intentions but anyone who voted for Trump who isn’t 100 miles deep into the Q brainwash hole should be doing a lot of soul searching right now and looking back at what they did and why. Think about what kind of man they supported and the danger that put the country in.
 

I see A LOT of if you're not for Clinton in 16, Biden, Whitmer here in Mich - then you are the problem and you're an enabler.  So its back to us against them.  People vote for candidates for different reasons.  

Now is Trump racist?  After thinking this over for a bit, I don't think he is, but some of his business policies probably are.  Not many blacks own banks or financial instititions, nor can they take advantage of many of Trump's business benefits.  

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51 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I see A LOT of if you're not for Clinton in 16, Biden, Whitmer here in Mich - then you are the problem and you're an enabler.  So its back to us against them.  People vote for candidates for different reasons.  

Now is Trump racist?  After thinking this over for a bit, I don't think he is, but some of his business policies probably are.  Not many blacks own banks or financial instititions, nor can they take advantage of many of Trump's business benefits.  

Not being "for" Clinton in 2016?  Totally get it.  I wasn't for Clinton in any sense of the word and I did not vote for her (I didn't vote for Trump either).  I'm not from Michigan and can't comment much on Whitmer versus alternative.  But anyone outside of the Q believers and diehard Trumpers that voted for him this go around should absolutely be doing some soul searching as to why they enabled him AFTER seeing what he was all about.  That is independent of whether one is "for Biden" or not.

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2 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

Not being "for" Clinton in 2016?  Totally get it.  I wasn't for Clinton in any sense of the word and I did not vote for her (I didn't vote for Trump either).  I'm not from Michigan and can't comment much on Whitmer versus alternative.  But anyone outside of the Q believers and diehard Trumpers that voted for him this go around should absolutely be doing some soul searching as to why they enabled him AFTER seeing what he was all about.  That is independent of whether one is "for Biden" or not.

I guess I don't get what soul searching we are supposed to do?  I am not for any of the far right of the party.  Was there soul searching from the left after 100+ days of destruction in Portland?  Maybe there was.  Our problem as a country is we are letting the fringes of both sides run things.

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6 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I guess I don't get what soul searching we are supposed to do?  I am not for any of the far right of the party.  Was there soul searching from the left after 100+ days of destruction in Portland?  Maybe there was.  Our problem as a country is we are letting the fringes of both sides run things.

I think a friend of mine put it pretty well on Weds. afternoon, commenting "I guess I underestimated just how horrible of a human being he is."

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Just now, Rich Conway said:

I think a friend of mine put it pretty well on Weds. afternoon, commenting "I guess I underestimated just how horrible of a human being he is."

He's always been a POS, Jr is following in those footsteps.  I feel for Barron.  

Donald has really come unhinged since his brother died (even more than before).

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6 hours ago, 36Kevon said:
7 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

There are people in the world other than you and your family.

Yes because they protected their genes first, and after that protected the tribe.  I don’t think you understand how evolution works.  Maybe you shouldn’t have brought it up. 

Evolution also works when stronger animals literally kill weaker animals for their own benefit.  But when it comes to humans, that sort of thing is looked down upon.

Looking at Darwinism to model ethical behavior makes no sense.

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

I guess I don't get what soul searching we are supposed to do?  I am not for any of the far right of the party.  Was there soul searching from the left after 100+ days of destruction in Portland?  Maybe there was.  Our problem as a country is we are letting the fringes of both sides run things.

If anyone on the left voted for the pied piper of the 100+ days of destruction in Portland, then yes they are in need of some soul searching as to why they voted for the pied piper. 

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40 minutes ago, Death Bytes said:

If anyone on the left voted for the pied piper of the 100+ days of destruction in Portland, then yes they are in need of some soul searching as to why they voted for the pied piper. 

I wouldn’t expect anyone to do soul searching for supporting a candidate that goes off the rails.  You just don’t support them again.  

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Trump is on another level no denying that.  Let’s hear from people who will support Ted Wheeler or the Seattle mayor.  Will you vote for them again and why?

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11 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Trump is on another level no denying that.  Let’s hear from people who will support Ted Wheeler or the Seattle mayor.  Will you vote for them again and why?

Well, I can state pretty definitively that I will never vote for Ted Wheeler or the current Seattle mayor. 

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8 hours ago, 36Kevon said:

Yes because they protected their genes first, and after that protected the tribe.  I don’t think you understand how evolution works.  Maybe you shouldn’t have brought it up. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution

2a: a process of change in a certain direction : UNFOLDING

b: the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : EMISSION

c(1): a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH

(2): a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance

d: something evolved

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1 minute ago, Apple Jack said:

In conclusion, no, not all people "vote with their pocketbook." Many Democrats vote against their own economic interests on a regular basis.

True, R’s do vote with their pocketbook more.  

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44 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Trump is on another level no denying that.  Let’s hear from people who will support Ted Wheeler or the Seattle mayor.  Will you vote for them again and why?

1. The protests in Seattle were over police brutality and racial injustice. These are not political issues and there were plenty of non-political people involved. What happened in DC was a brainwashed cult who tried over running the government because they thought an election had been stolen due to right wing propaganda. Pretty massive differences here as far as causes go...

2. The Seattle mayor does not represent the entire Democratic Party (clearly, as Biden won the Presidency and took an opposite approach) and I doubt many people, if even a single one viewing this thread, live in Seattle.

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21 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the post. And I agree with you on needing the discourse.

I'm interested, how many folks here agree with this statement that Trump is not a racist? 

That has a significant impact on how one would view the people who voted for him. 

I'm reading Michael Cohen's book and, given his overall conciliatory tone and self deprecation, I trust what he's saying to be true.  He says Trump is absolutely a racist.  

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

I wouldn’t expect anyone to do soul searching for supporting a candidate that goes off the rails.  You just don’t support them again.  

I would hope that people would consider what led them to be fooled and would guard against a similar occurrence in the future.

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10 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

I would hope that people would consider what led them to be fooled and would guard against a similar occurrence in the future.

First people need to acknowledge they've been fooled.  Instead, what I usually see is a lot of rationalizing and deflection.   

Why it's hard to admit you're wrong

My Dad is probably the most devoted Christian I know.  He voted for Trump in 2016 and again in 2020 despite "not liking the guy."  His excuse for voting for him again was, "as a conservative, what else am I supposed to do?"  As our conversation progressed, I saw that he had rationalized a vote for Trump by compartmentalizing his faith from his politics.  Voting for Trump was the right thing to do from a political standpoint.  Living how Christ wants him to live was completely separate and so the two can coexist.  

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54 minutes ago, Captain Cranks said:

My Dad is probably the most devoted Christian I know.  He voted for Trump in 2016 and again in 2020 despite "not liking the guy."  His excuse for voting for him again was, "as a conservative, what else am I supposed to do?"  As our conversation progressed, I saw that he had rationalized a vote for Trump by compartmentalizing his faith from his politics.  Voting for Trump was the right thing to do from a political standpoint.  Living how Christ wants him to live was completely separate and so the two can coexist.  

From a purely political standpoint, I'm not sure he was wrong to do this. Trump made three conservative Supreme Court nominations during his four-year tenure that will shape the legal path forward for the nation for the next generation. And, from a fiscal policy standpoint, I'm not sure he was all that terrible either. And for all the "dangerous rhetoric" he was accused of, he also kept us out of any major international conflict. In fact, he seemed pretty set on ensuring his focus was on pouring resources back into America rather than policing the world.

I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, but I can see how conservatives drew that conclusion and could be politically satisfied with the outcome in spite of moral objection to the man himself.

ETA: I'm wondering if your dad has any change in thought on this after the last week's events?

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1 hour ago, Rich Conway said:

I would hope that people would consider what led them to be fooled and would guard against a similar occurrence in the future.

It depends on your expectations of him when you voted.   This is exactly what I hear from the left on republicans - If you are at Trumptard, guilty.  If you voted for him, you are complicit, guilty by association.   I'm not saying you are like this, but I see this all over.  

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3 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Evolution also works when stronger animals literally kill weaker animals for their own benefit.  But when it comes to humans, that sort of thing is looked down upon.

Looking at Darwinism to model ethical behavior makes no sense.

I think loosely this discussion models why things are so divided.  The two priorities being discussed are completely incongruent.  I'm with Kevon and that my first responsibility is to my family and taking care of them then worrying about the community.  The alternate view here is that there's a greater good in a society or community first before the immediate family.  They are different ways of thinking and people tend to want to insult or criticize those from the other camp.  It's close to the nationalism/globalism debate and overlaps a great deal.  It's hard to reconcile when where you see your priorities and where you want to go as that incompatible.  I'm not sure but I think it's likely there is disagreement on what we have been in the past in this regard.  It's why my belief is that Trump never was the root cause of any problems, just rather the polarizing lightning rod to rally behind or attack.

Edited by Shula-holic
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11 hours ago, babydemon90 said:

From the OP..

"Political conservatives in the United States have never been people who engage in political acts of violence to maintain or seize power. "

 

That's where ya lost me. Literally the Civil War? I'm not sure diving into the rest of this is viable, but this is simply not grasping history. The above has happened. Alot.

A friend of mine posted on his Facebook page that there’s no way these people are conservatives because “conservatives don’t loot and riot and tear things down. It’s in the name conservative to conserve not to tear down therefore this must’ve been some sort of false flag.“

Some people are just so convinced that their side is right that literally anything will be interpreted through the lens of that presupposed belief.

Unfortunately religion also teaches that there is an underlying truth that must be protected at all times and any data coming in must be re-interpreted if necessary to protect the underlying assumption.  It’s not hard to see how the same mechanism that protects believers from cognitive dissonance also keeps them loyal to a political party. 
 

Locking in an ardently religious base is probably the smartest constituency to target as a political movement. 

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11 hours ago, babydemon90 said:

From the OP..

"Political conservatives in the United States have never been people who engage in political acts of violence to maintain or seize power. "

 

That's where ya lost me. Literally the Civil War? I'm not sure diving into the rest of this is viable, but this is simply not grasping history. The above has happened. Alot.

A friend of mine posted on his Facebook page that there’s no way these people are conservatives because “conservatives don’t loot and riot and tear things down. It’s in the name conservative to conserve not to tear down therefore this must’ve been some sort of false flag.“

Some people are just so convinced that their side is right that literally anything will be interpreted through the lens of that presupposed beliefs .

Unfortunately religion also teaches that there is an underlying truth that must be protected at all times and any data coming in must be re-interpreted if necessary to protect the underlying assumption.

Its not hard to see why the same mechanism that protects ardent religious believers from cognitive dissonance is also politically advantageous for a party that has sucked them in. 

Edited by mr roboto
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3 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

  I'm with Kevon and that my first responsibility is to my family and taking care of them then worrying about the community.  The alternate view here is that there's a greater good in a society or community first before the immediate family.  They are different ways of thinking and people tend to want to insult or criticize those from the other camp. 

Thanks for responding and I’m sorry if my comments sounded insulting, that wasn’t my intent.

But I have no problem criticizing the voting practices of anybody that’s middle class or above who says they “vote with their wallet.”  I think it’s wrong and immoral.  

I’m not saying that a person can’t even consider their own family’s financial situation when voting.  But when a person votes for a candidate that will cut his taxes by a few hundred dollars but will cause suffering for millions of other people, I feel justified in criticizing that world view.

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2 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

In conclusion, no, not all people "vote with their pocketbook." Many Democrats vote against their own economic interests on a regular basis.

So do Rs.
 

The most ironic voter is the poor white working class Trump supporter who has a lot in common with the poor black working class inner-city Democrat but think somehow that the fake billionaire from New York with gold letters on buildings and massive amounts of personal debt and multiple bankruptcies is somehow and economic genius who is going to help them and their friends from the trailer park thrive.

And I don’t use any of these words to denigrate those voters I literally came from that environment and the lack of self-awareness that the Republican elites couldn’t care less about them is shocking.

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6 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Thanks for responding and I’m sorry if my comments sounded insulting, that wasn’t my intent.

But I have no problem criticizing the voting practices of anybody that’s middle class or above who says they “vote with their wallet.”  I think it’s wrong and immoral.  

I’m not saying that a person can’t even consider their own family’s financial situation when voting.  But when a person votes for a candidate that will cut his taxes by a few hundred dollars but will cause suffering for millions of other people, I feel justified in criticizing that world view.

No worries, I should have been more clear, I didn't take your comments as insulting.  I was referring to activity up thread where evolution was referenced and it could be taken to mean you were less evolved if you thought of your family first.

I think criticizing is fine, it's important people can do that and not take things personally in response, myself included.  I agree with your last statement actually but I don't think the majority of people who voted for Trump for financial reasons would look at it in that light.  Moreso than the personal rates, look at the changes his tax plan made for small business, including the QBI.  That helped small business close the gap between themselves and larger corporations.  I get the argument could be made that the way to adjust that was via changing the treatment of the corporations instead, but for me that was a huge issue.

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20 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Thanks for responding and I’m sorry if my comments sounded insulting, that wasn’t my intent.

But I have no problem criticizing the voting practices of anybody that’s middle class or above who says they “vote with their wallet.”  I think it’s wrong and immoral.  

I’m not saying that a person can’t even consider their own family’s financial situation when voting.  But when a person votes for a candidate that will cut his taxes by a few hundred dollars but will cause suffering for millions of other people, I feel justified in criticizing that world view.

This right here. Totally understand someone who is voting based off their own financial situation if they are lower/middle class and genuinely struggling to get by. Lots of people I know voting because of finances are no where close to this situation. 

When you’re making 6 figures and you value an extra vacation per year over basic necessities for millions of Americans, what else is there to say? Sorry, but IMO you’re either selfish or very ignorant to the problems the average American is facing. You can’t teach empathy and for people to care for others.

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2 hours ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

1. The protests in Seattle were over police brutality and racial injustice. These are not political issues and there were plenty of non-political people involved. What happened in DC was a brainwashed cult who tried over running the government because they thought an election had been stolen due to right wing propaganda. Pretty massive differences here as far as causes go...

No.  This is wrong on a whole bunch of different dimensions.

First of all, nobody is complaining about the (peaceful) "protests" in Seattle or elsewhere, just like nobody's complaining about the Stop the Steal rally itself.  By framing this as a "protest" issue, you're strawmanning it, and I'm sure you probably know that.

Second, yes those are absolutely political issues.  That's why we have policy and laws pertaining to those topics.  "But MY issues aren't political" is just another flavor of "But it's cute when I do it."   

Third, if you're going to handwave political violence in defense of racial justice, then you can stay on the sideline when people commit political violence in defense of democracy.  Elk Man and his ilk would employ the exact same "This isn't a political issue" claim that you're using, and you have no good answer to this because you've already conceded the argument.  Let the rest of us who were born with a desire for internal consistency handle this one.

Fourth, nobody defending the George Floyd riots gets to use the term "brainwashed cult" when referring to others.  I agree with the application of this label to Elk Man, but CHAZ apologists and woke folks in general aren't the ones to be casting that particular stone. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 11:40 AM, RnR said:

I think that, generally speaking, many right-leaning Christians feel as though the left looks down upon their world view. The country has become increasingly secular, and it's nearly impossible to get a large portion of the population to take you seriously on social media if you start from a position of faith. That's incredibly disheartening for some people. And, understandably, different folks handle that differently.

They might feel that way, but they are completely wrong. The left just elected a devout Christian to the presidency. The Speaker regularly uses faith-based rhetoric from the house floor. 

On the local level I am a straight, white, protestant guy who is involved enough in local D politics to say that my demographic isn't any sort of a hinderance, and people don't look down on me for my faith. 

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6 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

No.  This is wrong on a whole bunch of different dimensions.

First of all, nobody is complaining about the (peaceful) "protests" in Seattle or elsewhere, just like nobody's complaining about the Stop the Steal rally itself.  By framing this as a "protest" issue, you're strawmanning it, and I'm sure you probably know that.

Second, yes those are absolutely political issues.  That's why we have policy and laws pertaining to those topics.  "But MY issues aren't political" is just another flavor of "But it's cute when I do it."   

Third, if you're going to handwave political violence in defense of racial justice, then you can stay on the sideline when people commit political violence in defense of democracy.  Elk Man and his ilk would employ the exact same "This isn't a political issue" claim that you're using, and you have no good answer to this because you've already conceded the argument.  Let the rest of us who were born with a desire for internal consistency handle this one.

Fourth, nobody defending the George Floyd riots gets to use the term "brainwashed cult" when referring to others.  I agree with the application of this label to Elk Man, but CHAZ apologists and woke folks in general aren't the ones to be casting that particular stone. 

I was going to get back to this.  When isn't the police a political issue?  I guarantee the next Minn mayoral election, its a hot button issue.              

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34 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

So do Rs.
 

The most ironic voter is the poor white working class Trump supporter who has a lot in common with the poor black working class inner-city Democrat but think somehow that the fake billionaire from New York with gold letters on buildings and massive amounts of personal debt and multiple bankruptcies is somehow and economic genius who is going to help them and their friends from the trailer park thrive.

And I don’t use any of these words to denigrate those voters I literally came from that environment and the lack of self-awareness that the Republican elites couldn’t care less about them is shocking.

I know you probably know this, but the Democrat elites couldn't care less about them either. So I'm not sure I see that as a line in the sand for anyone.

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14 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

This right here. Totally understand someone who is voting based off their own financial situation if they are lower/middle class and genuinely struggling to get by. Lots of people I know voting because of finances are no where close to this situation. 

When you’re making 6 figures and you value an extra vacation per year over basic necessities for millions of Americans, what else is there to say? Sorry, but IMO you’re either selfish or very ignorant to the problems the average American is facing. You can’t teach empathy and for people to care for others.

I don't think most voters who vote for their own financial interest are doing that.  I don't think it should be viewed under those "extreme" circumstances anymore than someone like me should look at the other viewpoint under it's most "extreme" view of they want my family to starve so they can get more "free stuff".  I think we should all be better at understanding the difference between a priority and it being absolute at all costs.  Just because you want the better economic outcome doesn't mean you are against society, or even that you think your outcome isn't better for society.  It also doesn't mean that what those who view society as more important want to send my family to the bread lines to accomplish that.

I think we could all agree either extreme case would crumble the case of what we want.  Tim said without a safe society his family isn't safe, I think most people voting in their financial interests agree with that and aren't for making themselves first so much that they cause that.  By the same token if you vote first for society you wouldn't want to tax people so hard it causes enough hardship for revolt.  Neither is a good outcome.

I just think these things can be viewed along linear lines and weighted.  Just because you value one more, doesn't mean you don't value the other at all.

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11 hours ago, Apple Jack said:
11 hours ago, 36Kevon said:

No. Not really. Surprised to see you take this tired angle.  People vote with their pocketbook. I don’t give a crap who it is as long as my capitol gains tax stays at 15%.
If that makes me a lesser person for  taking care of my family then so be it. It doesn’t make me racist because they guy who I voted for has more economic sense than the socialist alternative. 

Some people are little more evolved than that.

Most people are. I think that people vote for "who we want to be" more than what is in their financial interest. 

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1 minute ago, The Narrator said:

They might feel that way, but they are completely wrong. The left just elected a devout Christian to the presidency. The Speaker regularly uses faith-based rhetoric from the house floor. 

On the local level I am a straight, white, protestant guy who is involved enough in local D politics to say that my demographic isn't any sort of a hinderance, and people don't look down on me for my faith. 

IDK if they are wrong, but its a bigger issue for the right than the left in general.  I don't care if our president is an athiest, as long as people have the right to religion.  

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