What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Nazi analogies (1 Viewer)

timschochet

timschochet

Footballguy
So on that video over the weekend by Arnold Schwarzenegger, he invoked Kristallnacht to discuss the riots. I get what he was trying to do; he’s from Austria, but the analogy doesn’t really hold. (A better analogy would be the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, though that doesn’t hold either.) 

Then this morning Jeanine Pirro compared the deplatforming of Parler to Kristallnacht- no I’m not making this up, she actually did. I don’t want to forget a guy I support, Joe Biden, bringing up Josef Goebbels last week.  
 

Pirro was the most ridiculous (as she usually is) but in terms of American politics it’s never a wise comparison to make. The Nazis were either the first or second most evil regime in history (Stalinist Russia always has an argument here) so the only purpose of such an analogy is to declare one’s opponent as not just wrong but evil. 

 
Were Nazis the first or second most evil regime in history when it was first starting out? Or did they work their way up?

I've rejected Trump/Hitler comparisons since day one. I still reject them, but that rejection is becoming harder every day.

 
dgreen said:
Were Nazis the first or second most evil regime in history when it was first starting out? Or did they work their way up?

I've rejected Trump/Hitler comparisons since day one. I still reject them, but that rejection is becoming harder every day.
Click to expand...
It didn’t take them very long. 

 
Even Godwin has said that some analogies to Nazism are apt, particularly with regard to Trumpism. 
 

To that end, you can’t just say,”hey you mentioned a Nazi, that’s inapposite.”  Otherwise, we couldn’t all make fun of that time Michael Jordan grew a Hitler stache. 
 

I think Biden’s citation if Goebbels and The Big Lie was perfectly apt.  Because he was comparing similar conduct, not similar results. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Even Godwin has said that some analogies to Nazism are apt, particularly with regard to Trumpism. 
 

To that end, you can’t just say,”hey you mentioned a Nazi, that’s inapposite.”  Otherwise, we couldn’t all make fun of that time Michael Jordan grew a Hitler stache. 
 

I think Biden’s citation if Goebbels and The Big Lie was perfectly apt.  Because he was comparing similar conduct, not similar results. 
Click to expand...


I thought he'd bring it back...

:kicksrock:

 
Sea Duck said:
The only thing worse than playing the "Nazi" card, is playing the "Playing The Nazi Card" card.
Click to expand...
what was timmay's widely mocked thread in the FFA? Things about Hitler that weren't that bad, or myths about Hitler. Help me out old timers.

 
I can't speak for anyone using this analogy. My own thought about Arnold's comparing what happened on the capitol to Kristallnacht is that it isn't the most apt (the levels of scale, destruction, implicit state sponsorship/permission of violence against a single group of people, and straight-up murder are far different than what we saw happen on Capitol Hill).

I do think Arnold pointing out that this event was a watershed moment where long-standing systemic and overt issues (whether racism, misplaced hypernationalism, politicians sewing mistrust, division, and fomenting unchecked discord and misinformation, among so many issues) all came to a roiling head - very much like Kristallnacht -- is apt.

Seeing white nationalism so tied to policies and behavior of civic leaders and their followers is also extremely troubling, and there are also parallels about present day American fascism that can be drawn to the Nazi regime.

Was this event the same as Kristallnacht? Far from it. 

Does it share some of the issues and underlying structures and problems that led to Kristallnacht and the rise of the Nazis? For sure.

 
timschochet said:
So on that video over the weekend by Arnold Schwarzenegger, he invoked Kristallnacht to discuss the riots. I get what he was trying to do; he’s from Austria, but the analogy doesn’t really hold. (A better analogy would be the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, though that doesn’t hold either.) 

Then this morning Jeanine Pirro compared the deplatforming of Parler to Kristallnacht- no I’m not making this up, she actually did. I don’t want to forget a guy I support, Joe Biden, bringing up Josef Goebbels last week.  
 

Pirro was the most ridiculous (as she usually is) but in terms of American politics it’s never a wise comparison to make. The Nazis were either the first or second most evil regime in history (Stalinist Russia always has an argument here) so the only purpose of such an analogy is to declare one’s opponent as not just wrong but evil. 
Click to expand...
“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.


That word is "Nazi." Nobody cares about their motives anymore.”

A.R. Moxon
Click to expand...

 
dgreen said:
Were Nazis the first or second most evil regime in history when it was first starting out? Or did they work their way up?

I've rejected Trump/Hitler comparisons since day one. I still reject them, but that rejection is becoming harder every day.
Click to expand...
Exactly.  What the Nazi regime ended up doing in the end was, in my view, the most horrific genocide the world has ever seen.  And it is not particularly close given how it was done.  However, there is a reason that the National Socialist German Worker's Party is studied in universities the world over and the subject of vast scholarly works.  And that is because it is a case study in how the rule of law fell, truth was rejected in favor of propaganda, sycophantism for the cult of personality reigned  and personal freedoms were slowly eroded over time to ripen the conditions for both the war and genocide that were made possible by the foundation laid by the Nazis throughout the 30's.

Rejecting analogies on the basis that the outcome in the Nazi experience was unfathomable and evil is both short sighted and dangerous IMO.

 
It's just so damn juvenile. I have a hard time buying that anyone actually truly believes this nonsense. That guy is worse then Hitler, or those people are worse than Nazis. I always think a little less of whoever resorts to the silliness. I don't know if it's laziness, or if the individual is incapable articulating a coherent criticism. How did people attempt to smear others before Hitler?

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
It's just so damn juvenile. I have a hard time buying that anyone actually truly believes this nonsense. That guy is worse then Hitler, or those people are worse than Nazis. I always think a little less of whoever resorts to the silliness. I don't know if it's laziness, or if the individual is incapable articulating a coherent criticism. How did people attempt to smear others before Hitler?
Click to expand...
This reads like something Albert Speer would write. 

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
It's just so damn juvenile. I have a hard time buying that anyone actually truly believes this nonsense. That guy is worse then Hitler, or those people are worse than Nazis. I always think a little less of whoever resorts to the silliness. I don't know if it's laziness, or if the individual is incapable articulating a coherent criticism. How did people attempt to smear others before Hitler?
Click to expand...
These skilamanincks have been engaging in podsnappery. The mafficking meaters beat a mutton shunter to death while the President buttered his bacon.

 
A lot of the constructs of the Nazis were seen, and have been seen, in Trump actions.  That's why I've been calling him a fascist for some time.  The result is thankfully different, but January 20th isn't here yet.

 
As a country, we have endured and participated in an almost complete genocide of an entire race/culture, enslavement, internment, and have gone to war over differing cultural and religious ideology for centuries. This is who we are. To say that it can’t happen here is ridiculous. 
 

Which is why some of us get concerned when we see the signs of perhaps another iteration. Let’s nip it in the bud now, and this we way we won’t need to look back and wonder what went wrong. 

 
Arnold shared his experiences, feelings, and observations based on his own life.  How anyone wants to denigrate him over it is not appropriate IMHO.

 
  • Thanks
Reactions: SWC
timschochet said:
So on that video over the weekend by Arnold Schwarzenegger, he invoked Kristallnacht to discuss the riots. I get what he was trying to do; he’s from Austria, but the analogy doesn’t really hold. (A better analogy would be the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, though that doesn’t hold either.) 

Then this morning Jeanine Pirro compared the deplatforming of Parler to Kristallnacht- no I’m not making this up, she actually did. I don’t want to forget a guy I support, Joe Biden, bringing up Josef Goebbels last week.  
 

Pirro was the most ridiculous (as she usually is) but in terms of American politics it’s never a wise comparison to make. The Nazis were either the first or second most evil regime in history (Stalinist Russia always has an argument here) so the only purpose of such an analogy is to declare one’s opponent as not just wrong but evil. 
Click to expand...
To put it in the language of this football board.....The Nazis didn't start out as the most Evil regime...they didn't go to a High School known for Evil....or a DIV IA "Evil Regime Factory".  They were a late round pick in the Evil Draft.....and worked hard, for a long time to become one of the GOATS of Evil....ultimately ending up as a 1st Ballot inductee in the Evil Hall of Fame.  There was probably several points in the Nazis "Evil" career in which they could have been derailed from their path of "Evilness".  Can you imagine what the Evil world would look like if the Nazis has listened to a coach at their high school or college and instead of honing their evil craft...instead went into "sort of bad" or "decently competent"?  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think most people that know anything about the rise of the Nazi's, can really see parallel's with the propaganda and lies.  The Goebbels comparison was something a lot of us had probably been thinking about for some time, but had not mentioned it because the other party gets bent out of shape when you bring up anything to do with the word Nazi.  Even though that comparison is spot on.  

When I was young I used to wonder how could an entire country of intelligent people allow the rise of the Nazi's.  

 
Thunderlips said:
To put it in the language of this football board.....The Nazis didn't start out as the most Evil regime...they didn't go to a High School known for Evil....or a DIV IA "Evil Regime Factory".  They were a late round pick in the Evil Draft.....and worked hard, for a long time to become one of the GOATS of Evil....ultimately ending up as a 1st Ballot inductee in the Evil Hall of Fame.  There was probably several points in the Nazis "Evil" career in which they could have been derailed from their path of "Evilness".  Can you imagine what the Evil world would look like if the Nazis has listened to a coach at their high school or college and instead of honing their evil craft...instead went into "sort of bad" or "decently competent"?  
Click to expand...
No no no. 
Sorry but this is a misreading of history. And it’s a big part of the problem, because Nazi analogies become much easier when you believe that the Third Reich was some sort of slow evolution towards evil- it allows you to fear that we are on the same slippery slope. 
The Nazis were total evil from the moment they took power. Hitler made his intentions clear in Mein Kampf and even before. He didn’t hint about dictatorship, he didn’t argue authoritarian ideas; he said “Germany needs a dictator and that is me. And when I take control I’m going to get rid of all the Jews, absorb Austria, and invade Eastern Europe and Russia and make them my slaves, and destroy anyone who tries to stop me.” 
Trump is not Hitler. Nobody is Hitler except Hitler! 
 Trump isn’t even Mussolini- a better comparison, but still no. Trump isn’t even Juan Peron- an even better comparison but still no. Trump is probably best compared to Joe McCarthy...

 
timschochet said:
No no no. 
Sorry but this is a misreading of history. And it’s a big part of the problem, because Nazi analogies become much easier when you believe that the Third Reich was some sort of slow evolution towards evil- it allows you to fear that we are on the same slippery slope. 
The Nazis were total evil from the moment they took power. Hitler made his intentions clear in Mein Kampf and even before. He didn’t hint about dictatorship, he didn’t argue authoritarian ideas; he said “Germany needs a dictator and that is me. And when I take control I’m going to get rid of all the Jews, absorb Austria, and invade Eastern Europe and Russia and make them my slaves, and destroy anyone who tries to stop me.” 
Trump is not Hitler. Nobody is Hitler except Hitler! 
 Trump isn’t even Mussolini- a better comparison, but still no. Trump isn’t even Juan Peron- an even better comparison but still no. Trump is probably best compared to Joe McCarthy...
Click to expand...
Thanks.  I always thought they grew into the evil that they were, but I just read their 25 point platform written in the early 1920's. They were anti-semetic right from the get-go.  They wanted to strip Jews of their rights to be a German citizen in this platform.

 
timschochet said:
No no no. 
Sorry but this is a misreading of history. And it’s a big part of the problem, because Nazi analogies become much easier when you believe that the Third Reich was some sort of slow evolution towards evil- it allows you to fear that we are on the same slippery slope. 
The Nazis were total evil from the moment they took power. Hitler made his intentions clear in Mein Kampf and even before. He didn’t hint about dictatorship, he didn’t argue authoritarian ideas; he said “Germany needs a dictator and that is me. And when I take control I’m going to get rid of all the Jews, absorb Austria, and invade Eastern Europe and Russia and make them my slaves, and destroy anyone who tries to stop me.” 
Trump is not Hitler. Nobody is Hitler except Hitler! 
 Trump isn’t even Mussolini- a better comparison, but still no. Trump isn’t even Juan Peron- an even better comparison but still no. Trump is probably best compared to Joe McCarthy...
Click to expand...
Even before Mein Kampf, the Nazis believed in race science. Those who were of German blood were the true citizens of the republic. 

For the Nazis, this so-called “German blood” determined whether one was considered a citizen. The Nazis believed that citizenship should not only bestow on a person certain rights (such as voting, running for office, or owning a newspaper); it also came with the guarantee of a job, food, and land on which to live. Those without “German blood” were not citizens and therefore should be deprived of these rights and benefits.

Non-Aryans has no rights whatsoever because they lacked German blood. Ironically, Hitler should have never been allowed to be a German citizen or even to have served in the German Army in WWI. He wasn’t Bavarian, he was Austrian, 

@timschochet you are so correct to dispel this notion the Nazis started out OK or were bush league evil who evolved into evil incarnate. The Weimar Republic was called the Jew republic in open court during the beer hall putsch trial. The Bolshevik Revolution was controlled by Jews in their narrow worldview. This was 8-12 years before Hitler started to make inroads into the government. 

 
Between literally any two things in the entire universe, there will be some similarities and some differences.

Sometimes it's instructive to point out some of the similarities (while keeping in mind the differences).

Comparisons to Hitler are overused because Hitler is so famous for being bad.

The word 'literally' is also overused. That doesn't mean that its use is never appropriate.

As with the use of the word 'literally,' comparisons to Hitler can be apt or inapt depending on how they're done.

 
I don’t really think Trumpism has evolved in evilness over time either.  mean, it’s not like his comments when he announced and after Charlottesville didn’t clue us in that he was trying to appeal to white nationalists. 
 

What has evolved is the dangerousness of his message, in part because of the same impulse Tim displays here. 
 

After Hitler was released from prison, the NYT had a piece about how a somber and chastened Hitler was expected to return to Austria and retire from public life. I’ve read other contemporary pieces from the time that read almost precisely like the pieces arguing that Trump should be taken “seriously but not literally.”
 

 Trump told us in 2016 that any election he didn’t win would be rigged. I spent four years pretending to have my tongue in my cheek by “joking” that he’d never peacefully transfer power. Because professional and amateur pundits would have deemed such a suggestion “unserious.”  

 
timschochet said:
Trump isn’t even Mussolini- a better comparison, but still no. Trump isn’t even Juan Peron- an even better comparison but still no. Trump is probably best compared to Joe McCarthy...
Click to expand...
In some superficial ways, but McCarthy was never a head of state - and to me, that's a major difference.

It's hard to directly compare Trump to other nationalist leaders because he doesn't have the personal allegiance of the nation's armed forces. America, as a holistic entity, never allowed Trumpism to move through society essentially unrestrained.

 
I did read this and thought of this thread, so....

Huge numbers of our population believe in a complete alternate reality. Alternate facts as it were. But just as intensely as I believe they are deluded, they think I am the one who is deluded. Maybe I am. So how can I be confident in my perception? It can be quite difficult.

But, I have found that in times of political confusion, particularly when emotions are running high and creating tunnel vision, the presence of Nazis can be an extremely helpful indicator.

If I am attending a local demonstration or event and I see Nazis…neo-Nazis, casual Nazis, master race Nazis, or the latest-whatever-uber-mythology-Nazis, I figure out which side they are on.

And if they are on my side of the demonstration? I am on the wrong side.

It is tough to argue moral equivalence when I am standing next to a Nazi. Look to my right. Is there a guy wearing a 6MWE (6 million wasn’t enough) t-shirt? I am on the wrong side. Look to my left. Is that guy wearing a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt? Wrong side. Are Speakers being applauded for referring to things that Hitler got right? Wrong side. Team-spirit face paint and hat with animal horns? This is actually an unclear indicator that could mean anything, but safest to keep my distance from that guy anyway, even at a football game.

However, I can always, always, always rely on the presence of Nazis as a guiding light through a fog of disinformation.

Some things are relative, and politics can absolutely have it’s opposing sides and grey areas.

But evil and good are absolute. As are the lessons of history. So, just look for the Nazis, and make your own decisions.

 
gianmarco said:
I did read this and thought of this thread, so....

Huge numbers of our population believe in a complete alternate reality. Alternate facts as it were. But just as intensely as I believe they are deluded, they think I am the one who is deluded. Maybe I am. So how can I be confident in my perception? It can be quite difficult.

But, I have found that in times of political confusion, particularly when emotions are running high and creating tunnel vision, the presence of Nazis can be an extremely helpful indicator.

If I am attending a local demonstration or event and I see Nazis…neo-Nazis, casual Nazis, master race Nazis, or the latest-whatever-uber-mythology-Nazis, I figure out which side they are on.

And if they are on my side of the demonstration? I am on the wrong side.

It is tough to argue moral equivalence when I am standing next to a Nazi. Look to my right. Is there a guy wearing a 6MWE (6 million wasn’t enough) t-shirt? I am on the wrong side. Look to my left. Is that guy wearing a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt? Wrong side. Are Speakers being applauded for referring to things that Hitler got right? Wrong side. Team-spirit face paint and hat with animal horns? This is actually an unclear indicator that could mean anything, but safest to keep my distance from that guy anyway, even at a football game.

However, I can always, always, always rely on the presence of Nazis as a guiding light through a fog of disinformation.

Some things are relative, and politics can absolutely have it’s opposing sides and grey areas.

But evil and good are absolute. As are the lessons of history. So, just look for the Nazis, and make your own decisions.
Click to expand...
Gonna make this a plaque and hang in a place of prominence at my house just in case I ever need a reminder.

 
The main problem with this thread is that most of you think the lies and propaganda were coming from the right, and only from the right.

We're all being fed like sheep by the various factions who have agendas at play.  The fact that most of you CAN'T see that is the real problem.  They've convinced you that the other side are the liars and propogandists - by feeding you lies and propoganda.

So we can make analogies to Hitler and Nazis with everyone in here.  You're all not really against lies and propoganda - just the lies and propoganda from the other guys.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
BladeRunner said:
The main problem with this thread is that most of you think the lies and propaganda were coming from the right, and only from the right.

We're all being fed like sheep by the various factions who have agendas at play.  The fact that most of you CAN'T see that is the real problem.  They've convinced you that the other side are the liars and propogandists - by feeding you lies and propoganda.

So we can make analogies to Hitler and Nazis with everyone in here.  You're all not really against lies and propoganda - just the lies and propoganda from the other guys.
Click to expand...
Putin is playin' 4D chess

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top