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How White Evangelical Christians Fused With Trump Extremism (1 Viewer)

S

Sinn Fein

Footballguy
This is a lengthy article in NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/how-white-evangelical-christians-fused-with-trump-extremism.html

Normally, I would paste it and spoiler it - but I understand the spoiler function is not working with the software update.

I'll try cutting it up into pieces to make it more readable - but I think this is a conversation we keep skirting, but perhaps its time to think a bit more about the subject.

WASHINGTON — Before self-proclaimed members of the far-right group the Proud Boys marched toward the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, they stopped to kneel in the street and prayed in the name of Jesus.

The group, whose participants have espoused misogynistic and anti-immigrant views, prayed for God to bring “reformation and revival.” They gave thanks for “the wonderful nation we’ve all been blessed to be in.” They asked God for the restoration of their “value systems,” and for the “courage and strength to both represent you and represent our culture well.” And they invoked the divine protection for what was to come.

Then they rose. Their leader declared into a bullhorn that the media must “get the hell out of my way.” And then they moved toward the Capitol.

The presence of Christian rituals, symbols and language was unmistakable on Wednesday in Washington. There was a mock campaign banner, “Jesus 2020,” in blue and red; an “Armor of God” patch on a man’s fatigues; a white cross declaring “Trump won” in all capitals. All of this was interspersed with allusions to QAnon conspiracy theories, Confederate flags and anti-Semitic T-shirts.

The blend of cultural references, and the people who brought them, made clear a phenomenon that has been brewing for years now: that the most extreme corners of support for Mr. Trump have become inextricable from some parts of white evangelical power in America. Rather than completely separate strands of support, these groups have become increasingly blended together.

This potent mix of grievance and religious fervor has turbocharged the support among a wide swath of Trump loyalists, many of whom describe themselves as participants in a kind of holy war, according to interviews. And many, who are swimming in falsehoods about the presidential election and now the riot itself, said the aftermath of Wednesday’s event has only fueled a deeper sense of victimhood and being misunderstood.

 
Part 2:

Lindsay French, 40, an evangelical Christian from Texas, flew to Washington after she had received what she called a “burning bush” sign from God to participate following her pastor urging congregants to “stop the steal.”

“We are fighting good versus evil, dark versus light,” she said, declaring that she was rising up like Queen Esther, the biblical heroine who saved her people from death.

“We are tired of being made out to be these horrible people,” she said, acknowledging there was some violence but insisting on the falsehood that Antifa was behind it.

Like many Republicans in Congress, some evangelical leaders who have been most supportive of Mr. Trump distanced themselves and their faith from the rioters. Robert Jeffress, pastor of First Baptist Dallas, called the violence “anarchy.” The siege on the Capitol “has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity,” he said. “Our support of President Trump was based on his policies.”

But critics said it was too late to try to separate the white conservative Christian culture that helped push Mr. Trump to power from last week’s violence in Washington.

“You can’t understand what happened today without wrestling with Christian Nationalism,” Andrew Whitehead, a sociologist at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, said on Wednesday, adding that white evangelical movements have long at least tolerated far-right extremism, well before Mr. Trump. “They provided the political and theological underpinnings of this, and it has allowed anarchy to reign.”

 
Part 3:

In a Facebook video shot in Washington on Monday night, Tennessee pastor Greg Locke referred to himself as part of the “black robe regiment,” a reference to American clergy who were active in the American Revolution. At a rally the next night, Mr. Locke preached to a crowd of Trump supporters in Freedom Plaza, predicting “not just a Great Awakening, but the greatest awakening that we have ever seen.”

The riot on Wednesday, carried out by a largely white crowd, also illustrated the racial divide in American Christianity.

Hours before the attack on the Capitol, the Rev. Raphael Warnock of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta had been elected to the U.S. Senate after many conservative white Christians tried to paint him as a dangerous radical, even as his campaign was rooted in the traditional moral vision of the Black church. And for years many Black Christians have warned white believers that Mr. Trump’s rhetoric on race was going to end badly.

“Our cries go unheeded,” Jemar Tisby, the president of a Black Christian collective called the Witness, said.

“This is authentic white American Christianity on display,” he said of Wednesday’s event. “The challenge for white Christian America is to examine what they have wrought religiously.”

 
Part 4:

Inside the Capitol, senators who objected to the election results were among the most prominent conservative Christians in their party, including Senators Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, and Cindy Hyde-Smith.

The fruits of the alliance between far-right groups — Christian and otherwise — were clear on Wednesday, before the rioting began, as thousands of Trump supporters gathered to protest the certification of the presidential election results, with Joseph R. Biden Jr. definitively defeating Mr. Trump, even after attempts to discredit the election. Many in attendance were white evangelicals who felt called to travel hundreds of miles from home to Washington.

Oren Orr, 31, an arborist from Robbinsville, N.C., where he goes to Santeetlah Baptist Church, rented a car to drive to Washington. He carried his American flag right up below the officers on the bleachers, and his wife had a Christian flag. Mr. Trump could be the last president to believe in Jesus, he said. (Mr. Biden speaks often about his lifelong Catholic faith, and unlike Mr. Trump, attends church services frequently.)

Mr. Orr said he brought a baton and a Taser to Washington but did not get them out. “I know the Lord has my back no matter what happens,” he said.

As for the ample evidence that many in the crowd were racist, Mr. Orr said, “We get called white supremacists and all this. I have plenty of colored friends. Some of my best friends are from Mexico.”

 
Part 5:

The spread of falsehoods about the integrity of the election — and now the roots of Wednesday’s rioting — have deeply infiltrated conservative Christian circles. Apocalyptic evangelical beliefs about the end of the world and the coming divine judgment blur with QAnon conspiracy theories that falsely assert the country is dominated by deep-state bureaucrats and pedophiles.

Abigail Spaulding, a stay-at-home mother of 15 who traveled to the rally with friends from her church in South Carolina, broke down in tears as she spoke about her fears for her children under a Biden administration. She said her husband had explained to their children that when Mr. Biden is sworn in as president, “they can take the Bible and call it hate speech and throw it out.” And she had other worries about Mr. Biden, drawn from Facebook and Twitter — all of which were false.

In Kalamazoo, Mich., Laura Kloosterman, 34, attended mass on Wednesday and prayed that Congress would decline to certify Mr. Biden’s victory. She had read claims online about flawed voting machines undercounting votes for Mr. Trump — there is no evidence for these claims, which Mr. Trump and right-wing voices online have promoted.

Ms. Kloosterman follows the evangelical writer and radio host Eric Metaxas, who has repeatedly claimed the election results were fraudulent. Mr. Metaxas, who punched a protester outside the White House last summer, told Mr. Trump in an interview in late November that he would “be happy to die in this fight,” in a conversation about attempts to overturn the election results. “God is with us,” he added.

 
Part 6:

Other supporters of the president have spent months sowing doubts among Christians about fraud. These false beliefs have forged even stronger connections between white evangelicals and other conservative figures.

A group called the Jericho March, which has led a series of demonstrations for “election integrity,” held five days of events in Washington that culminated on Wednesday. Last month the group, which included speakers like Mr. Metaxas and Michael T. Flynn, Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser, marched around the Capitol seven times, modeling their protest on a biblical battle in which the Israelites marched around the city of Jericho until its walls crumbled, letting their armies take the city.

Earlier this week, when Enrique Tarrio, the leader of the Proud Boys, was arrested in Washington on suspicion of burning a Black Lives Matter banner torn from a historic Black church, his supporters raised more than $100,000 for his legal defense on a Christian fund-raising platform called GiveSendGo.

“Many people disagree with GiveSendGo allowing campaigns for people or causes that they personally disagree with, much like people disagreed with the way Jesus showed love to the ‘sinners of society,’” the platform’s co-founder, Jacob Wells, said. “We choose not to side at all and that causes a lot of both sides to hate us.”

Since the riot, many who were sympathetic to its cause said they were enraged at the removal of Mr. Trump and others from social media platforms like Twitter, and the deplatforming of the upstart conservative social-media site Parler. They viewed it as part of a broader conspiracy to silence Christianity. And they are looking ahead to make sure that their voices are heard.

 
End:

Adam Phillips, 44, a dry wall contractor from Robbinsville, N.C., had work and couldn’t come to Washington on Wednesday — “The Lord just didn’t see it fit,” he said — but he came to two demonstrations since November, the Stop the Steal march and the Million MAGA March.

“It has been obvious for a while that Christians are under suppression, they are under scrutiny by everyone,” he said. “All of the things the country was founded on are under attack, they are trying to get the name of God out of everything, especially the name of Jesus.”

 
So, one of the first things that comes to mind, for me, is that I have been asking the wrong questions, and not really thinking about this issue properly.

I have wondered how christians could support someone as antithetical to christianity as Trump.  And when we have those conversations, it usually devolves into some conversation about how christians can separate the man from the power to protect Christian virtues - mostly on abortion.

But, I think "Christianity" is only tangential to this conversation.  If this was a "christianity" issue, you would have seen much more support among black christian churches.  But, Trump does not enjoy widespread support in those circles.

At its core, I think this infusion of "christian" support and white nationalism - is more about the white nationalism than it is about any semblance of christianity.  I think it is about a group of people who are worried that the America they know - rural, white, and Christian - is slowly moving in another direction - and the are worried about their place in a new world order.

When people line up in support of Trump - nationalism is at the forefront, more so than religion.  It just so happens that many nationalist, also wrap themselves up in a Christian movement - but I don't think that is driving the thought process here.

I also don't believe that many people who call themselves "Christians" really follow the word of Christ.  So, I don't think Christ's teachings are driving people to support Trump - and in fact I would argue that Christ's teachings would, in fact, drive people away from nationalism altogether.  But, here we are, and people professing to follow Christ are certain that God wants them to violently overthrow a government.  (Its obviously not the first time battles have been waged in the name of God - but, as a christian, I don't believe that God would sanction any wars against His children.  I don't believe that Jesus' messages of love your neighbor, and forgiveness would ever condone a violent approach to a problem.

I feel like good people are being led astray, by unscrupulous people.  But, I don't know how we reach out to people, who are programmed to believe the world is out to persecute them.

 
The Bible speaks of false prophets throughout...

2 Peter 2:1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

2 Peter 2:3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Ezekiel 22:28.Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says’—when the LORD has not spoken.

Mark 13:22. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 7:15. “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 7:21. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Matthew 24:11 ...and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Matthew 24:24. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Revelation 19:20. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 
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Sinn Fein said:
Oren Orr, 31, an arborist from Robbinsville, N.C., where he goes to Santeetlah Baptist Church, rented a car to drive to Washington. He carried his American flag right up below the officers on the bleachers, and his wife had a Christian flag. Mr. Trump could be the last president to believe in Jesus, he said. (Mr. Biden speaks often about his lifelong Catholic faith, and unlike Mr. Trump, attends church services frequently.)
Click to expand...
This is the type of ignorance that is beyond frustrating.   Trump may pretend to be religious, but it's very clear that he knows absolutely nothing about religion and the only god he worships is himself.

 
timschochet said:
On FreeRepublic.com, there has been a Christian prayer posted every evening during the last 4 years for Jesus to watch over and protect President Trump and Vice President Pence. 
During the last week the prayer has been reduced to Trump only. 
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I'm sure the prayer will continue for the next 4 years.

 
Alex P Keaton said:
I'm sure the prayer will continue for the next 4 years.
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It should

The NT commands us to pray for our leaders

1 Timothy 2:1-2 - I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—  for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

1 Peter 2:17  - Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

Romans 13:1 - Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Also true in the OT

Jeremiah 29:7 - Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Psalms 2:10-11 -  Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.  Serve the LORD with fear and celebrate his rule with trembling.

Proverbs 11:14 - For lack of guidance a nation falls, but victory is won through many advisers.

Proverbs 21:1 - The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

Job 12:23-25 - He makes nations great, and destroys them; he enlarges nations, and disperses them.

Proverbs 2:1-8 - My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2) turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3) indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4) and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5) then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God. 6) For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. 7) He holds success in store for the upright, he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless, 😎 for he guards the course of the just and protects the way of his faithful ones.

 
timschochet said:
On FreeRepublic.com, there has been a Christian prayer posted every evening during the last 4 years for Jesus to watch over and protect President Trump and Vice President Pence. 
During the last week the prayer has been reduced to Trump only. 
Click to expand...
Free Republic speaks for all white evangelicals?  What next the looters and rioters speak for the entire BLM movement?

 
Sinn Fein said:
So, one of the first things that comes to mind, for me, is that I have been asking the wrong questions, and not really thinking about this issue properly.

I have wondered how christians could support someone as antithetical to christianity as Trump.  And when we have those conversations, it usually devolves into some conversation about how christians can separate the man from the power to protect Christian virtues - mostly on abortion.

But, I think "Christianity" is only tangential to this conversation.  If this was a "christianity" issue, you would have seen much more support among black christian churches.  But, Trump does not enjoy widespread support in those circles.

At its core, I think this infusion of "christian" support and white nationalism - is more about the white nationalism than it is about any semblance of christianity.  I think it is about a group of people who are worried that the America they know - rural, white, and Christian - is slowly moving in another direction - and the are worried about their place in a new world order.

When people line up in support of Trump - nationalism is at the forefront, more so than religion.  It just so happens that many nationalist, also wrap themselves up in a Christian movement - but I don't think that is driving the thought process here.

I also don't believe that many people who call themselves "Christians" really follow the word of Christ.  So, I don't think Christ's teachings are driving people to support Trump - and in fact I would argue that Christ's teachings would, in fact, drive people away from nationalism altogether.  But, here we are, and people professing to follow Christ are certain that God wants them to violently overthrow a government.  (Its obviously not the first time battles have been waged in the name of God - but, as a christian, I don't believe that God would sanction any wars against His children.  I don't believe that Jesus' messages of love your neighbor, and forgiveness would ever condone a violent approach to a problem.

I feel like good people are being led astray, by unscrupulous people.  But, I don't know how we reach out to people, who are programmed to believe the world is out to persecute them.
Click to expand...
First, thanks for posting. Excellent article.

I attend a church which is reflective of NYC. I don’t know hard numbers on our demographics but it’s definitely not “everyone looks like me.” If I had to guess I’d say 1/3rd Caucasian, 1/5th Asian, 1/4 Dominican/Puerto Rican/other Latino, 1/4 Black. That’s over 100% but a lot of folks are mixed. Anyway, Christian Nationalism is considered a crock in my circles.

On the other hand, there are dangers to Liberation Theology as well. Merely embracing BLM (one of three founders attends) unreservedly is insufficient as parts of it are incompatible with a proper exegetical understanding of scripture. Yet we do strive to identify with and support groups who are experiencing oppression.

Many non-believing progressives question Christians support of Trump. But they’re being quite disingenuous in doing so; they have no concern if people are trying to be more like Jesus, they just want to mock and villainize anyone who believes in the Bible. They want a form of Christianity which is completely walled off and to the side, not engaged or entangled with the business of government.

Seems reasonable from a secular viewpoint. Separation of church and state. But that’s the challenge for a believer - how to engage, without imposing the church. As individuals we bring our moral beliefs that have been informed by our understanding of the Bible. But we don’t live in a theocracy. We have be to be respectful and accepting of differing points of view.   

Most folks in my church are incredulous anyone would chose the greater of two evils. DJT was not an unknown entity 5 years ago and there’s certainly no excuse now. It’s never made sense. But that’s probably because we are not single issue people. There are many forms of injustice and wrongs that need to be righted. The central issue throughout the history of the United States (and well beyond the formation of the new nation or the colonies) has been race and equality.

From that perspective, abortion and SCotUS seats are subservient to larger societal problems. But for many (white, living in homogeneous subcultures) believers that seems incongruous.

 
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I said this in another thread- the Republican Party has branded themselves as being ordained by god. The people following them believe the end justifies the means. This started in the 80s with the moral majority and the mega churches that created it. 

 
the Velvet Rope. it is no coincidence that today's two abiding religions promise heaven to believers and eternal torment to deniers. i sense Jesus is out of tears by now, else he would care.

 
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BroncoFreak_2K3 said:
The Bible speaks of false prophets throughout...

2 Peter 2:1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

2 Peter 2:3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Ezekiel 22:28.Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says’—when the LORD has not spoken.

Mark 13:22. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 7:15. “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 7:21. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Matthew 24:11 ...and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Matthew 24:24. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Revelation 19:20. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Click to expand...
Satan too

1.Satan is not omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, nor eternal.

There was a time when Satan was not. In contrast, there was never a ‘time’ when the Son of God was not, i.e. the Son is eternal. Satan is created and contingent just as humans are (Col 1:16-17). In Job 1:6, the Lord asked Satan, “Where have you come from?” to which he responded, “From roaming through the earth.” He is physically positioned in the universe. He is not omnipresent and, thus, is unlikely to be personally tempting individual Christians. In Matthew 4 and Job 1-2, he fails to know the future and his potency is shown to be limited by God.

2.Satan exercises his otherworldly dominion by way of a hierarchical, geographical, and militaristic strategy.

In Matthew 4, Satan legitimately offers Jesus the kingdoms of the world. These kingdoms seem to have a geographical and governmental nature. This offer is textually grounded in Deuteronomy 32 and Psalm 82. But through the cross, Jesus took back the authority forfeited in Adam (Col 2:14-15). Therefore, in Matthew 28:18, Jesus states that all authority has been given to Him. In John 12:31 we’re told Satan is the “ruler of this world,” which rings of realm and region. Then, there is that peculiar reference to the “prince of the kingdom of Persia” in Daniel 10:13, 20. This dark prince opposes the angel Gabriel and the angelic prince Michael. It’s hierarchical. Experientially, this rings true. The nature of spiritual warfare varies depending on the continent and culture (North America, Asia, Africa, etc.). Satan leads a hierarchy of demons (Mt 12:24), a divergent and highly capable army, which implies he is leading an otherworldly ‘outfit’ that personally tempts persons (Col 2:15, 1 Pt 5:8-9) depending on the sinful sensibilities of a given culture.

3.Satan can manipulate matter, weather systems, and bacterial life.

We see in Job 1 that Satan is able to manipulate matter and weather patterns and, in Job 2:8, he infects Job with a skin disease. His purpose is to afflict Job, and for our machinations, we note he is capable of feats not afforded to humans.

4.Satan can influence and sway legal proceedings and governmental structures.

In Revelation 2:10, Jesus states that Satan is in the process of influencing Smyrna’s legal proceedings by throwing a collection of Christians into prison. Likewise, in Job 1:17, he manipulates the Chaldeans, encouraging them to steal Job’s livestock. Though we are not told how he exerts his influence, we surmise he is the agent of these activities.

5.Satan aggressively seeks to trap 
individual Christians.

1 Timothy 3:7 says he seeks to trap elders. He is spoken of as a federal head type of figure. His minions study individuals and then seek to tempt and twist them in accordance with particularized patterns of sin. They cater and concoct a seemingly irresistible elixir of poison just for you. Television, social media, fast food, biology, age, and gender are all thrown into the recipe.

6.Satan is more skilled at deception than any other created being.

John 8:44 says his nature is to lie. If his mouth is moving, he is lying. He is the original liar and, therefore, the father of lies. Every lie was and is birthed in him. However, deception is all he has in his arsenal against Christians. As Colossians 2:15 teaches, this side of Calvary, Satan can accuse, but he knows—and his rebel realm know—that he has been reduced to utter fragility at the cross.

7.Satan is able to kill Christians.

He is able to kill you physically (Job 1-2), but not eternally (Rom 8). In Job 2, when Satan goes a second time to the LORD in the divine courtroom, he asks permission to kill Job, but God denies his request. I take that to mean Satan could have killed him, but God would not allow it. Everything Satan does comes crashing down on his own head, eventually crushing his skull (Gn 3:15) unto the glory of the Son of God and for the Christian’s good.

8.Satan is the Lord’s lackey for the Christian’s holiness.

In 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul says his thorn is “a messenger of Satan,” and yet the Lord kindly uses the thorn (against Paul’s will!) to produce sanctification and spiritual power in Paul’s ministry. How kind of the Lord to give Paul his thorn! Satan plays the pawn in God’s economy, and the thorn stays against Paul’s will. Thus, Satan is ever-regulated by Romans 8 and, therefore, is providentially powerless to wound Christians in any resurrected or eternal sense. Neither Satan nor death, neither “angels nor rulers … nor powers … will be able to separate us from the love of God” (Rm 8:38).

9.Satan will be thrown into hell in the end.

Satan can and surely has read Matthew 25:41, which states he will ultimately be thrown into hell. That is what I mean by “Satan is so smart, he’s stupid.” This is his end, yet he rages against all “born of God” (1 Jn 3:9). He lies. He accuses the brethren (Rv 12:10). But he cannot succeed in bringing a guilty sentence upon the Christian anymore (Col 2:14).

10.Satan is resistible.

James 4:7 says, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” He will flee from you, Christian. Resist him. If Christians resist temptation, hold firm the promise of resurrection, and do not give in, do not accept the enemy’s lies, and do not give into his accusations—Satan will eventually depart. He is limited. He is finite. He will eventually move on to easier prey.
Click to expand...

 
Sinn Fein said:
I have wondered how christians could support someone as antithetical to christianity as Trump
Click to expand...
have you equally wondered in the past how Christians have supported Democrats and their white supremacist roots, the pro-abortion views, LGBTQ views etc?   All of those are very arguably NOT Christian values and yet they're gathered religious votes for decades right ? 

 
I watched a documentary called Jesus Camp in the aughts. I was disturbed at the time and seems like it was prescient in hindsight.

 
Sinn Fein said:
So, one of the first things that comes to mind, for me, is that I have been asking the wrong questions, and not really thinking about this issue properly.

I have wondered how christians could support someone as antithetical to christianity as Trump.  And when we have those conversations, it usually devolves into some conversation about how christians can separate the man from the power to protect Christian virtues - mostly on abortion.

But, I think "Christianity" is only tangential to this conversation.  If this was a "christianity" issue, you would have seen much more support among black christian churches.  But, Trump does not enjoy widespread support in those circles.

At its core, I think this infusion of "christian" support and white nationalism - is more about the white nationalism than it is about any semblance of christianity.  I think it is about a group of people who are worried that the America they know - rural, white, and Christian - is slowly moving in another direction - and the are worried about their place in a new world order.

When people line up in support of Trump - nationalism is at the forefront, more so than religion.  It just so happens that many nationalist, also wrap themselves up in a Christian movement - but I don't think that is driving the thought process here.

I also don't believe that many people who call themselves "Christians" really follow the word of Christ.  So, I don't think Christ's teachings are driving people to support Trump - and in fact I would argue that Christ's teachings would, in fact, drive people away from nationalism altogether.  But, here we are, and people professing to follow Christ are certain that God wants them to violently overthrow a government.  (Its obviously not the first time battles have been waged in the name of God - but, as a christian, I don't believe that God would sanction any wars against His children.  I don't believe that Jesus' messages of love your neighbor, and forgiveness would ever condone a violent approach to a problem.

I feel like good people are being led astray, by unscrupulous people.  But, I don't know how we reach out to people, who are programmed to believe the world is out to persecute them.
Click to expand...
Excellent post.

 
This was good: https://www.mattklewis.com/matt-lewis-and-the-news/david-french-on-why-only-the-church-can-truly-defeat-a-christian-insurrection/

I posted a debate David French had with another Christian in another thread here about Christians and Trump. And I think someone recently mentioned French’s new book in another thread. I think he does a good job of speaking from a Christian, conservative, anti-Trump perspective; which basically means I tend to agree with much of what he says. 
 

 
dgreen said:
This was good: https://www.mattklewis.com/matt-lewis-and-the-news/david-french-on-why-only-the-church-can-truly-defeat-a-christian-insurrection/

I posted a debate David French had with another Christian in another thread here about Christians and Trump. And I think someone recently mentioned French’s new book in another thread. I think he does a good job of speaking from a Christian, conservative, anti-Trump perspective; which basically means I tend to agree with much of what he says. 
 
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French just posted this today. 

Can't comment on a lot of the historical narrative as Evangelicalism as a whole isn't something I've followed closely, but a very interesting read that I figured would be a good addition to the thread.

 
Not sure if this is the right thread but it was the one that came up in a search.

The FBI Director’s testimony over the past few days is pretty crazy.

There are 2000 active domestic terrorist investigations going on, more than double anything we had post 9/11.

Double what we had just last year.

He described the domestic problem as “metastasizing”.

Scary stuff that isn’t getting enough attention. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
In a Facebook video shot in Washington on Monday night, Tennessee pastor Greg Locke referred to himself as part of the “black robe regiment,” a reference to American clergy who were active in the American Revolution. At a rally the next night, Mr. Locke preached to a crowd of Trump supporters in Freedom Plaza, predicting “not just a Great Awakening, but the greatest awakening that we have ever seen.”
Click to expand...


Finding it very interesting as the Trump Christians are starting to turn against him, due to his stance on the vaccine. Nobody loved them some Trump more than Greg Locke, but now he's turning his back on The Former Guy.

Interesting side note, Locke has gone from "COVID is a hoax" all the way to "more deaths than we have ever seen" that Trump will be blamed for.

 
BladeRunner said:
Wow.  You get to smear Trump AND Christians all in one fell swoop.  Pretty Amazing.
Click to expand...


Wow. I think it’s adorable that is what you got out of my post. Excellent dunk GB. Didn’t smear Trump at all, I actually think him speaking in favor of the vaccine is a good thing. And I didn’t smear Christians, those that believe in Jesus and try and act in accordance of his teachings. I did smear Greg Locke, and if you think he is a Christian, then you and I will have to agree to disagree. Hey, have a great night. Appreciate you.

 
BladeRunner said:
Wow.  You get to smear Trump AND Christians all in one fell swoop.  Pretty Amazing.
Click to expand...
I  didn't think his base would ever turn on him but as crazy as the last 5 years has been I could just see them turning on him for something he is doing right regarding the vaccine. But then they would only be turning to some other anti vaccine lunatic.

 
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While I wouldn't be shocked if Trump's evangelicals do ultimately break ranks with him over vaccines, I'm not sure Locke is a good indicator of where that group stands on, well, anything really.  At least, I hope that's true. IMO Locke is the fringiest of fringe. Seems like a really bad dude overall. I live in the area and am somewhat familiar with his work. Seems like the kind of person who could say or do almost anything to get attention and rile people up. I think @sho nuff may be even closer to that mess and I'd like to see what, if any, light he can shed on that.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I have wondered how christians could support someone as antithetical to christianity as Trump.  And when we have those conversations, it usually devolves into some conversation about how christians can separate the man from the power to protect Christian virtues - mostly on abortion.

But, I think "Christianity" is only tangential to this conversation.  If this was a "christianity" issue, you would have seen much more support among black christian churches.  But, Trump does not enjoy widespread support in those circles.
Click to expand...


If you think Christianity is only "tangential" you may not understand how important the abortion issue is to many Christians.  47% of Americans consider themselves pro-life per a Gallup Poll.(per a 5 second Google search)

At its core, I think this infusion of "christian" support and white nationalism - is more about the white nationalism than it is about any semblance of christianity.  I think it is about a group of people who are worried that the America they know - rural, white, and Christian - is slowly moving in another direction - and the are worried about their place in a new world order.
Click to expand...
That's quite the jump to a conclusion.  Christians support Trump because of white nationalism, wow.  That's a convenient and comfortable excuse to explain Trump's support isn't it?  You get to paint Trump supporters as "white nationalists".   My opinion is you don't understand rural white Christians at all and you are basically creating a narrative that fits your vision of Trump supporters.

When people line up in support of Trump - nationalism is at the forefront, more so than religion.  It just so happens that many nationalist, also wrap themselves up in a Christian movement - but I don't think that is driving the thought process here.
Click to expand...
Why can't it be both Christianity and Nationalism?  What about favoring capitalism over socialism?  What about foreign policy?  What about gun rights?   Trumps support is much more complex and diverse than you are making it out or implying it to be.  

I also don't believe that many people who call themselves "Christians" really follow the word of Christ.  So, I don't think Christ's teachings are driving people to support Trump - and in fact I would argue that Christ's teachings would, in fact, drive people away from nationalism altogether.  But, here we are, and people professing to follow Christ are certain that God wants them to violently overthrow a government.  (Its obviously not the first time battles have been waged in the name of God - but, as a christian, I don't believe that God would sanction any wars against His children.  I don't believe that Jesus' messages of love your neighbor, and forgiveness would ever condone a violent approach to a problem.
Click to expand...
Wow, now you are deciding who is and isn't a Christian based on who they vote for.  Many Christians I know are torn on Trump.   They can't stand the man but they support his policies.  And who is trying to overthrow a government?  Where did you get that bizarre idea?  Because people marched on the Capital? That event was far from attempting a coupe...CNN must really be influencing what little audience it has left.  Trespassers were fringe element at best that don't represent 99% of Trump voters and certainly not the vast majority of Republicans...don't forget that.  CNN may be playing that card, but it's rather surprising and frankly embarrassing how many fall for that depiction.

I feel like good people are being led astray, by unscrupulous people.  But, I don't know how we reach out to people, who are programmed to believe the world is out to persecute them.
Click to expand...
A large percentage of American's(and Trump voters) have seen the following

- quality of life reduced

- gun rights threatened

- private land rights threatened

- a reduction of observed Christian values by society at large

- continue pro choice motivations from the Democratic party

- red states turning blue or purple partially due to large influxes in immigration

- depicted as "deplorable" by Democratic leaders

- threatened blue collar energy jobs and other middle class jobs

- increased healthcare costs

People are not being "led astray", these people have felt under attack for decades and now they are standing up for themselves by voting for a President that actually supported them.  The people created Trump, not the other way around as the liberals would have you believe.  Your narrative demonstrates your lack of understanding of a huge percentage of the population and what they have experienced.  It is rather astonishing that relatively smart, educated people on the left can't figure this out.  A ,more interesting discussion is why smart, educated liberals can't figure it out.  I know I have my ideas on why they can't or wont, but that's probably for another thread.  

These types of articles that clearly demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of and actually insult conservative voters, only drive the country to be more divided and certainly drive certain conservatives to have even more resolve as they vote to fight who is attacking them.  But the purpose of these articles is not to sway voters is it?  Let's be honest, the conservative voters that this article attempts to explain don't actually read the New York Times and why would they?  The NYT has been outed as a biased publication (at best) that only exists to stroke the egos of the close minded followers it persuades and emboldens.

 
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Sinn Fein said:
So, one of the first things that comes to mind, for me, is that I have been asking the wrong questions, and not really thinking about this issue properly.

I have wondered how christians could support someone as antithetical to christianity as Trump.  And when we have those conversations, it usually devolves into some conversation about how christians can separate the man from the power to protect Christian virtues - mostly on abortion.

But, I think "Christianity" is only tangential to this conversation.  If this was a "christianity" issue, you would have seen much more support among black christian churches.  But, Trump does not enjoy widespread support in those circles.

At its core, I think this infusion of "christian" support and white nationalism - is more about the white nationalism than it is about any semblance of christianity.  I think it is about a group of people who are worried that the America they know - rural, white, and Christian - is slowly moving in another direction - and the are worried about their place in a new world order.

When people line up in support of Trump - nationalism is at the forefront, more so than religion.  It just so happens that many nationalist, also wrap themselves up in a Christian movement - but I don't think that is driving the thought process here.

I also don't believe that many people who call themselves "Christians" really follow the word of Christ.  So, I don't think Christ's teachings are driving people to support Trump - and in fact I would argue that Christ's teachings would, in fact, drive people away from nationalism altogether.  But, here we are, and people professing to follow Christ are certain that God wants them to violently overthrow a government.  (Its obviously not the first time battles have been waged in the name of God - but, as a christian, I don't believe that God would sanction any wars against His children.  I don't believe that Jesus' messages of love your neighbor, and forgiveness would ever condone a violent approach to a problem.

I feel like good people are being led astray, by unscrupulous people.  But, I don't know how we reach out to people, who are programmed to believe the world is out to persecute them.
Click to expand...
Most preachers I see on tv are against socialism and the Chinese social credit score. To them the vax pass is the total control of commerce and mark of the beast. It certainly looks like they have a point. Trump gave them hope with his anti globalist speech at the U.N. After operation warp speed many now see him for the controlled opposition he really is. 

 
TripItUp said:
If you think Christianity is only "tangential" you may not understand how important the abortion issue is to many Christians.  47% of Americans consider themselves pro-life per a Gallup Poll.(per a 5 second Google search)

That's quite the jump to a conclusion.  Christians support Trump because of white nationalism, wow.  That's a convenient and comfortable excuse to explain Trump's support isn't it?  You get to paint Trump supporters as "white nationalists".   My opinion is you don't understand rural white Christians at all and you are basically creating a narrative that fits your vision of Trump supporters.

Why can't it be both Christianity and Nationalism?  What about favoring capitalism over socialism?  What about foreign policy?  What about gun rights?   Trumps support is much more complex and diverse than you are making it out or implying it to be.  

Wow, now you are deciding who is and isn't a Christian based on who they vote for.  Many Christians I know are torn on Trump.   They can't stand the man but they support his policies.  And who is trying to overthrow a government?  Where did you get that bizarre idea?  Because people marched on the Capital? That event was far from attempting a coupe...CNN must really be influencing what little audience it has left.  Trespassers were fringe element at best that don't represent 99% of Trump voters and certainly not the vast majority of Republicans...don't forget that.  CNN may be playing that card, but it's rather surprising and frankly embarrassing how many fall for that depiction.

A large percentage of American's(and Trump voters) have seen the following

- quality of life reduced

- gun rights threatened

- private land rights threatened

- a reduction of observed Christian values by society at large

- continue pro choice motivations from the Democratic party

- red states turning blue or purple partially due to large influxes in immigration

- depicted as "deplorable" by Democratic leaders

- threatened blue collar energy jobs and other middle class jobs

- increased healthcare costs

People are not being "led astray", these people have felt under attack for decades and now they are standing up for themselves by voting for a President that actually supported them.  The people created Trump, not the other way around as the liberals would have you believe.  Your narrative demonstrates your lack of understanding of a huge percentage of the population and what they have experienced.  It is rather astonishing that relatively smart, educated people on the left can't figure this out.  A ,more interesting discussion is why smart, educated liberals can't figure it out.  I know I have my ideas on why they can't or wont, but that's probably for another thread.  

These types of articles that clearly demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of and actually insult conservative voters, only drive the country to be more divided and certainly drive certain conservatives to have even more resolve as they vote to fight who is attacking them.  But the purpose of these articles is not to sway voters is it?  Let's be honest, the conservative voters that this article attempts to explain don't actually read the New York Times and why would they?  The NYT has been outed as a biased publication (at best) that only exists to stroke the egos of the close minded followers it persuades and emboldens.
Click to expand...
This was a well written point by point response. This is how you make a sound rebuttal. Thanks!

 
Bogart said:
Wow. I think it’s adorable that is what you got out of my post. Excellent dunk GB. Didn’t smear Trump at all, I actually think him speaking in favor of the vaccine is a good thing. And I didn’t smear Christians, those that believe in Jesus and try and act in accordance of his teachings. I did smear Greg Locke, and if you think he is a Christian, then you and I will have to agree to disagree. Hey, have a great night. Appreciate you.
Click to expand...
Locke, like Trump, is another false prophet.  While no man is perfect, they both actively and repeatedly preach hate. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ taught to love our fellow man, no matter how different than ourselves, as we love Him.   

You don't need to believe me, check the bible.  This is an open book test. 

 
Bogart said:
Finding it very interesting as the Trump Christians are starting to turn against him, due to his stance on the vaccine. Nobody loved them some Trump more than Greg Locke, but now he's turning his back on The Former Guy.

Interesting side note, Locke has gone from "COVID is a hoax" all the way to "more deaths than we have ever seen" that Trump will be blamed for.
Click to expand...


VandyMan said:
While I wouldn't be shocked if Trump's evangelicals do ultimately break ranks with him over vaccines, I'm not sure Locke is a good indicator of where that group stands on, well, anything really.  At least, I hope that's true. IMO Locke is the fringiest of fringe. Seems like a really bad dude overall. I live in the area and am somewhat familiar with his work. Seems like the kind of person who could say or do almost anything to get attention and rile people up. I think @sho nuff may be even closer to that mess and I'd like to see what, if any, light he can shed on that.
Click to expand...
Locke doesn't represent Christians, I agree. Most of them don't know who he is.  They're better Christians for it. Most Christians aren't on Twitter.

But:  How many other grifters will hear the cheers in that crowd, and take note?  

The path from Greg Locke to memes on Facebook is clear, well-lit, and well-traveled.  

 
TripItUp said:
A large percentage of American's(and Trump voters) have seen the following

- quality of life reduced

- gun rights threatened

- private land rights threatened

- a reduction of observed Christian values by society at large

- continue pro choice motivations from the Democratic party

- red states turning blue or purple partially due to large influxes in immigration

- depicted as "deplorable" by Democratic leaders

- threatened blue collar energy jobs and other middle class jobs

- increased healthcare costs

People are not being "led astray", these people have felt under attack for decades and now they are standing up for themselves by voting for a President that actually supported them.  The people created Trump, not the other way around as the liberals would have you believe.  Your narrative demonstrates your lack of understanding of a huge percentage of the population and what they have experienced.  It is rather astonishing that relatively smart, educated people on the left can't figure this out.  A ,more interesting discussion is why smart, educated liberals can't figure it out.  I know I have my ideas on why they can't or wont, but that's probably for another thread. 
Click to expand...


What is it about Trump versus his peers that make him a better choice in protecting these "family values"?  You seem to be intimating that only Trump can protect America versus other Republican candidates.  Is the rise of Trump a critique of Republican political leadership?  Can't someone who isn't a psycho step in to fulfill the need?

 
Sinn Fein said:
End:

Adam Phillips, 44, a dry wall contractor from Robbinsville, N.C., had work and couldn’t come to Washington on Wednesday — “The Lord just didn’t see it fit,” he said — but he came to two demonstrations since November, the Stop the Steal march and the Million MAGA March.

“It has been obvious for a while that Christians are under suppression, they are under scrutiny by everyone,” he said. “All of the things the country was founded on are under attack, they are trying to get the name of God out of everything, especially the name of Jesus.”
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things my country was founded on:

freedom from religious persecution

separation of church and state

all men are created equal

free speech

not one word specifying Christianity as the religion of state.  

but this confuses bubba, since he was taught to sing god bless america.

On balance, I'd say the Abrahamic religions have done more bad than good.  Which is of course ironic given the message of the New Testament, but here we are.  I feel a little bad for Mike Pence, but when you lay down with dogs, you get fleas.

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
things my country was founded on:

freedom from religious persecution

separation of church and state

all men are created equal

free speech

not one word specifying Christianity as the religion of state.  

but this confuses bubba, since he was taught to sing god bless america.

On balance, I'd say the Abrahamic religions have done more bad than good.  Which is of course ironic given the message of the New Testament, but here we are.  I feel a little bad for Mike Pence, but when you lay down with dogs, you get fleas.
Click to expand...
bubba?

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
What is it about Trump versus his peers that make him a better choice in protecting these "family values"? 
Click to expand...


I don't vote on family values per se, so you are asking the wrong guy on that one  But anecdotally, I think Trump has made inroads with Christians and they trust him more on this topic more so than they do the Dems.

You seem to be intimating that only Trump can protect America versus other Republican candidates.  Is the rise of Trump a critique of Republican political leadership? 
Click to expand...


Absolutely, the rise of Trump is a critique.   Democrats and Republicans both are scrambling to figure out what they missed for the last 5 years.   Trump tapped into something that was unexpected by the political power structure.
 

Can't someone who isn't a psycho step in to fulfill the need?
Click to expand...


Maybe.  Trump had plenty of impactful change that enabled him to get 74 million votes, and he would have been a shoe-in had there been no pandemic.  It needs to be acknowledged that a large portion of the country liked his policies.

 
VandyMan said:
While I wouldn't be shocked if Trump's evangelicals do ultimately break ranks with him over vaccines, I'm not sure Locke is a good indicator of where that group stands on, well, anything really.  At least, I hope that's true. IMO Locke is the fringiest of fringe. Seems like a really bad dude overall. I live in the area and am somewhat familiar with his work. Seems like the kind of person who could say or do almost anything to get attention and rile people up. I think @sho nuff may be even closer to that mess and I'd like to see what, if any, light he can shed on that.
Click to expand...
Not much more light to shed.  Have seen enough of the videos and come away with the same thoughts as others.  There is very little of his ranting that is based in an Christianity I know.  he is more politics than church it seems...or at least that is how he comes off with all of this.  I think he generally loves the attention.  I do know they have continued to expand their footprint.  From the small church building they had...to a large tent...to a now larger tent with a ton of construction around it.  Local land owners have taken some measures to ensure people don't park on their property and I know a few near by are not happy with it.

 
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