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Loyal Opposition Thread - Clean House 2022 (1 Viewer)

knowledge dropper

Footballguy
This thread is intended for posters supportive of the GOP, conservatism, and minority views in the PSF to discuss the issues of the day and future strategies.  We also appreciate observations, exposure, and analysis of what the other side is doing as we navigate through difficult days ahead. 
 

Please no trolling!!!!

 
A reasonable alternative to the Democratic Party will always be needed so I wish you best of fortune. But it seems to me you’ve got some urgent issues to solve: 

1. At last Wednesday’s rally Donald Trump Jr said “This is Trump’s Republican Party!” Will this continue to be the case? 
2. If the answer to #1 is no, will the GOP revert to the traditional conservative positions of Ronald Reagan, or will you continue down Trump’s path of nationalism and nativism? 
 

The above are serious questions and not meant in any way to be trolling. 

 
I'd like to see the party rise like a phoenix from the ashes myself. Seems like a distant memory but back when I was regularly studying political theory I felt a sense of pride in registering with an R by my name. Of course, I haven't felt that in several years now. 

To me it's simple to state - get away from Trump, any ardent supporters of Trump, anybody associated with Q or similar asinine conspiracy theories, and anybody who thinks that those on the other side of the aisle are enemies and/or don't have a point. We need to get back to the days of respect and professionalism. We need more leaders like McCain, Romney, Kasich, and even the Bushes. We need our leaders to be more educated both in law and political theory. Trump, Gaetz, Loeffler, McCarthy, etc. are an embarassment to the party and need to be disassociated with.

From a policy standpoint we re-focus back on true fiscal responsibility. By this I mean stop building an expensive and nonsensical wall, decrease military spending, stop overpopulating the prisons, etc. I actually don't hate the recent tax code but it's incongruent with the amount we're spending nationally. I say start there and stop focusing so much on social issues. 

Again, the above sounds simple to me but I get that it's complicated in implementation. Further, I get the above is probably a minority viewpoint of most in the party. 

 
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This thread is intended for posters supportive of the GOP, conservatism, and minority views in the PSF to discuss the issues of the day and future strategies.  We also appreciate observations, exposure, and analysis of what the other side is doing as we navigate through difficult days ahead. 
 

Please no trolling!!!!
I guess the first step is to determine what the platform is besides obstruct Biden.

 
Collectively we need to get away from categorizing as “the left” and “the right.”  That intent is to make you feel like you need to pick a side and thus defend all issues on that side.  Not everything D is great and R is wrong and vice versa.

issues need to be viewed without a party filter - which is a complete 180 as there are forces like conservative talk that stress the opposite - calling out conservative media as guys like Hannity, ingraham, Carlson are on a separate level.

 
Collectively we need to get away from categorizing as “the left” and “the right.”  That intent is to make you feel like you need to pick a side and thus defend all issues on that side.  Not everything D is great and R is wrong and vice versa.

issues need to be viewed without a party filter - which is a complete 180 as there are forces like conservative talk that stress the opposite - calling out conservative media as guys like Hannity, ingraham, Carlson are on a separate level.
Sounds like a different thread.  

 
What does "Loyal Opposition" mean in this context?

Because I think that people who are loyal to principles of the Republican Party will be defeated in 2022 primaries by people who are loyal to Donald Trump.

 
I support and desire conservatism with a huge focus on states rights.

Sincere question - If I want to change the current status quo to be more conservative, is that considered progressive?

 
I support and desire conservatism with a huge focus on states rights.

Sincere question - If I want to change the current status quo to be more conservative, is that considered progressive?
No, you're still conservative. "Conservative" doesn't necessarily mean "keep the status quo"; it also means "revert back to the way it used to be".

 
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Sea Duck said:
What does "Loyal Opposition" mean in this context?

Because I think that people who are loyal to principles of the Republican Party will be defeated in 2022 primaries by people who are loyal to Donald Trump.


I support and desire conservatism with a huge focus on states rights.

Sincere question - If I want to change the current status quo to be more conservative, is that considered progressive?
Good questions.  I'd like to see a house cleaning of all people devoted trump too so the GOP party can get back to their roots.  But, since they have gone so far right to the point of supporting terrorists acts and treason, it does seem to be a very progressive move to even pull back to moderate conservative views.  

 
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Sea Duck said:
What does "Loyal Opposition" mean in this context?

Because I think that people who are loyal to principles of the Republican Party will be defeated in 2022 primaries by people who are loyal to Donald Trump.
Time will tell.  It all depends on who steps up as the day to day face of the Party.  I don’t think that will be Trump.  It won’t be Romney or Kasich either. 

 
Good questions.  I'd like to see a house cleaning of all people devoted trump too so the GOP party can get back to their roots.  But, since they have gone so far right to the point of supporting terrorists acts and treason, it does seem to be a very progressive move to even pull back to moderate conservative views.  
The House reference was pointed towards the US House

 
Sea Duck said:
What does "Loyal Opposition" mean in this context?

Because I think that people who are loyal to principles of the Republican Party will be defeated in 2022 primaries by people who are loyal to Donald Trump.
Time will tell.  It all depends on who steps up as the day to day face of the Party.  I don’t think that will be Trump.  It won’t be Romney or Kasich either. 
There are lots of people stepping up, but they are all fatally flawed:

1. the pro-Trump MAGA types are going to become the "third rail" of politics. That faction will become more and more isolated as its members attempt to jump ship to category 2 or category 3 below.

2. the anti-Trump Republicans are going to be ostracized and ousted by their own party. They won't be able to win a primary except in the most moderate districts.

3. the phony fence-sitter types (Nikki Haley, Dan Crenshaw, Lindsey Graham, etc.) might be able to win a Republican primary, but they're going to get hammered in the general election as their old words come back to haunt them.

 
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knowledge dropper said:
Sounds like a different thread.  
And yet fully appropriate here because if you let talking heads with allegiances to donors shape your opinion there will be no progress

like when you are already framing it as opposition without seeing the policies.  Oppose the policy not the party that put it forward

 
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And yet fully appropriate here because if you let talking heads with allegiances to donors shape your opinion there will be no progress

like when you are already framing it as opposition without seeing the policies.  Oppose the policy not the party that put it forward
Right now the only policy has been Trump is bad.  

 
knowledge dropper said:
If obstruction prevents Biden from implementing bad policy, I say obstruct away. 
1. Not possible to obstruct him because Trump cost them all 3 branches.

2. In order to clean house, you'll need something to draw people to vote for them.  Right now I'm not sure there's enough of a consensus to garner the votes to do that.

 
1. Not possible to obstruct him because Trump cost them all 3 branches.

2. In order to clean house, you'll need something to draw people to vote for them.  Right now I'm not sure there's enough of a consensus to garner the votes to do that.
While I'm pretty frustrated and angry with a lot of what Trump has done, essentially handing over the executive and both congressional houses due (by effectively forcing rational right-leaning voters to vote democrat) definitely ranks up there. 

 
It would seem to behoove me to comment, but I have realized, in the past few years, that my policy beliefs aren't even in line with the 1980 or 1972 Republican platforms. Civil libertarianism has informed my politics the past ten-fifteen years without me even realizing that I was no longer a member of the American right, really, if one is to look at it honestly. I would end the War on Drugs (definitely not a Republican proposition); would encourage the demilitarization and deescalation of the police and policing tactics by supporting the reallocation of funds for policing and ending qualified immunity; would encourage a national review (see what I did there) of the NSA, Homeland Security, the CIA, and the DoD to make sure citizen rights aren't trampled and that bad actors (like Trump) do not have these agencies and their utter dominance over American security at their disposal; would try, in general, to return our economic model to a smaller, more responsible one both in consumption and in production; would vote to reaffirm the first trimester privacy pregnancy standard as set forth in Roe and would codify that judicial decision; and there are a host of other things that I support that now align me closer to anti-authoritarian stances than the American right has held since '72.

Perhaps I would be a Goldwaterite still, but that seems a far cry from the present. It's almost sixty years hence.

So I wish the American Right success in promulgating business-friendly (not corporate) policies, controlling spending, promulgating common sense directives about accommodations and civil liberties, and bringing common sense reforms to education questions, e.g., school choice taking precedence over teachers' unions. These are not small things, and I think the American right's true success lies in effectively doing things like these.

 
While I'm pretty frustrated and angry with a lot of what Trump has done, essentially handing over the executive and both congressional houses due (by effectively forcing rational right-leaning voters to vote democrat) definitely ranks up there. 
But that's only two branches.

 
whoknew said:
I'm very curious to see how the GOP evolves in the next few years, post-Trump.
This. I’d love an intellectual challenge to identity politics/wokeness/liberal cancel culture w/out the corresponding nationalism and racist dog whistling. 
 

Will conservatives take over or will they be too afraid of nationalists?

 
Rock - you are a libertarian. :welcome:
Oh, I always demurred about that because libertarians are a slightly different philosophical strain than I. I could explain it, but it would get really abstract and I'm not sure how much people would dig it or have read the stuff I would be talking about. Basically, this: It comes down to a theory of history and how history moves. It depends whether or not you believe, like Friedrich Hayek, that one is not a conservative but a libertarian because one is moving toward a new end point of history heretofore unbeknownst to us where the state is truly minimized to an afterthought, or that one is a conservative because they believe in a more Burkean concept of history, that of received wisdom, synthesis, and empiricism. Hayek would do often what our left does, which is proceed from deductively logical priniciples whereas the conservative in me would look at traditional wisdom, however illogical, and give it weight  when performing the typical antithesis/thesis/synthesis progression. But yeah, I am indeed an American libertarian in most strains, but classical liberal or believer in individualism suits my views probably a bit better than either libertarian or civil libertarian. I'm a classical liberal who is very circumspect about the power and efficacy of state action. 

 
Right now the only policy has been Trump is bad.  
That’s an interesting take when it was the RNC that chose not to adopt a party platform at the convention, choosing instead to pass a non-substantive resolution stating:

RESOLVED, That the Republican Party has and will continue to enthusiastically support the President’s America-first agenda;

RESOLVED, That the 2020 Republican National Convention will adjourn without adopting a new platform until the 2024 Republican National Convention


EDIT:  I see that the Democratic policy platform has already been linked. 

 
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Tough sledding for the Senate in 2022 just based on math.  34 seats up for grab.  14 Democrat and 20 Republican.  I believe all 14 democratic seats are in states that Biden won.  The Georgia seat looks to be the most volatile.  Republicans have 3 or 4 seats in toss-up states.

The Congress election will have all the redistricting in effect. 

 
Tough sledding for the Senate in 2022 just based on math.  34 seats up for grab.  14 Democrat and 20 Republican.  I believe all 14 democratic seats are in states that Biden won.  The Georgia seat looks to be the most volatile.  Republicans have 3 or 4 seats in toss-up states.

The Congress election will have all the redistricting in effect. 
The path for any breakthrough in 2022 for the R's is most likely flipping the House for those very reasons.  The Toomey and Burr seats are going to be tough defends for the R's.  

 
for me, I'd like to see more young, vibrant GOP leaders - but truth is, how badly Democrats both the next two years will be what Republican's can capitalize on like

if the economy tanks - if we enter into foreign conflict, if border security still exists, massive Fed debt, high unemployment, stock market underperforming, high fuel prices ..... everything the Republicans will use 

if everything is fantastically peachy - they it will be more of a political strategy like Democrats used on Trump I think

GOP will retain the conservative base - they need to tap into the bases they are not strong suited in. Will they learn that? I dunno ... we'll see

 
for me, I'd like to see more young, vibrant GOP leaders - but truth is, how badly Democrats both the next two years will be what Republican's can capitalize on like

if the economy tanks - if we enter into foreign conflict, if border security still exists, massive Fed debt, high unemployment, stock market underperforming, high fuel prices ..... everything the Republicans will use 

if everything is fantastically peachy - they it will be more of a political strategy like Democrats used on Trump I think

GOP will retain the conservative base - they need to tap into the bases they are not strong suited in. Will they learn that? I dunno ... we'll see
Over-reach by the Democrats with a left agenda will be our biggest friend  Democrats would be wise to hold off on the really crazy stuff until after the midterms so they can appease middle America and gain even more legislative control  

 
Oh, I always demurred about that because libertarians are a slightly different philosophical strain than I. I could explain it, but it would get really abstract and I'm not sure how much people would dig it or have read the stuff I would be talking about. Basically, this: It comes down to a theory of history and how history moves. It depends whether or not you believe, like Friedrich Hayek, that one is not a conservative but a libertarian because one is moving toward a new end point of history heretofore unbeknownst to us where the state is truly minimized to an afterthought, or that one is a conservative because they believe in a more Burkean concept of history, that of received wisdom, synthesis, and empiricism. Hayek would do often what our left does, which is proceed from deductively logical priniciples whereas the conservative in me would look at traditional wisdom, however illogical, and give it weight  when performing the typical antithesis/thesis/synthesis progression. But yeah, I am indeed an American libertarian in most strains, but classical liberal or believer in individualism suits my views probably a bit better than either libertarian or civil libertarian. I'm a classical liberal who is very circumspect about the power and efficacy of state action. 
Also, and not to be argumentative, but you are also a progressive. You are considered a progressive IMHO because you want to change the status quo. You want to make things better. 

People think thank progressivism started with Wilson or Rosevelt. I would encourage all to go back to Kant. That is the real progressive movement, not some political label to fear monger and maintain divisive politics. 

:2cents:

 
Over-reach by the Democrats with a left agenda will be our biggest friend  Democrats would be wise to hold off on the really crazy stuff until after the midterms so they can appease middle America and gain even more legislative control  
So they can be pointed to as The Do Nothing Democrats after they controlled the Senate, House and WH and accomplished nothing in two years.  Yeah, that would be a winning strategy for the 2022 elections.  

 
So they can be pointed to as The Do Nothing Democrats after they controlled the Senate, House and WH and accomplished nothing in two years.  Yeah, that would be a winning strategy for the 2022 elections.  
They will fare a lot better than going all in on silliness and taxes. 

 
So they can be pointed to as The Do Nothing Democrats after they controlled the Senate, House and WH and accomplished nothing in two years.  Yeah, that would be a winning strategy for the 2022 elections.  
They will fare a lot better than going all in on silliness and taxes. 
I dont understand this line of thinking.  We printed 20% of all dollars in the past year.  Spending in the Trump administration dramatically increased.  Do people honestly believe that Biden will perform fiscally worse than Trump?

 
That’s an interesting take when it was the RNC that chose not to adopt a party platform at the convention, choosing instead to pass a non-substantive resolution stating:

RESOLVED, That the Republican Party has and will continue to enthusiastically support the President’s America-first agenda;

RESOLVED, That the 2020 Republican National Convention will adjourn without adopting a new platform until the 2024 Republican National Convention


EDIT:  I see that the Democratic policy platform has already been linked. 
I thought of this. Somebody, in an article somewhere, had identified Trump voters as having identified with him on a very, fundamental personal level. That the message that the left hated him somehow had gotten translated into "the left hates you" and he was withstanding their attacks by proxy, really. That's why the politics of Trump are so personal.

I say this because have you ever thought that maybe that platform is not enthusiastic support, but rather, throwing their hands up in the air not knowing what the heck to do already? They had a president that didn't really reflect their traditional platform but reached voters that where completely disenfranchised before. The Republicans had to know this. So the above phenomenon, coupled with an unsteady base of support, might have led to the unusual step of personalizing a party platform which is usually inherently supposed to depersonalize and diffuse policies away from a man and onto a group writ large.

 
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Over-reach by the Democrats with a left agenda will be our biggest friend  Democrats would be wise to hold off on the really crazy stuff until after the midterms so they can appease middle America and gain even more legislative control  
I think the political environment is when you have power, you wield it and ram through agenda

 
for me, I'd like to see more young, vibrant GOP leaders - but truth is, how badly Democrats both the next two years will be what Republican's can capitalize on like

if the economy tanks - if we enter into foreign conflict, if border security still exists, massive Fed debt, high unemployment, stock market underperforming, high fuel prices ..... everything the Republicans will use 

if everything is fantastically peachy - they it will be more of a political strategy like Democrats used on Trump I think

GOP will retain the conservative base - they need to tap into the bases they are not strong suited in. Will they learn that? I dunno ... we'll see
Which are those as you see it?

 
I dont understand this line of thinking.  We printed 20% of all dollars in the past year.  Spending in the Trump administration dramatically increased.  Do people honestly believe that Biden will perform fiscally worse than Trump?
People judge based on their own wallets.  If taxes go up, inflation goes up, gas prices go up, market goes down, and jobs decrease.  Biden takes the fall

 
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I thought of this. Somebody, in an article somewhere, had identified Trump voters as having identified with him on a very, fundamental personal level. That the message that the left hated him somehow had gotten translated into "the left hates you" and he was withstanding their attacks by proxy, really. That's why the politics of Trump are so personal.

I say this because have you ever thought that maybe that platform is not enthusiastic support, but rather, throwing their hands up in the air not knowing what the heck to do already? They had a president that didn't really reflect their traditional platform but reached voters that where completely disenfranchised before. The Republicans had to know this. So the above phenomenon, coupled with an unsteady base of support, might have led to the unusual step of personalizing a party platform which is usually inherently supposed to depersonalize and diffuse policies away from a man and onto a group writ large.
This seems pretty spot on. 

 
I dont understand this line of thinking.  We printed 20% of all dollars in the past year.  Spending in the Trump administration dramatically increased.  Do people honestly believe that Biden will perform fiscally worse than Trump?
People judge based on their own wallets.  If taxes go up, inflation goes up, gas prices go up, market goes down, and jobs decrease.  Biden takes the fall
You made an academic statement which I agree with.

I am super surprised folks think Biden will spend more than Trump.  I find that hard to believe.

 
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You made an academic statement which I agree with.

I am super surprised folks think Biden will spend more than Trump.  I find that hard to believe.
As his first order of business, he is proposing a 1.9 trillion dollar relief and coronavirus response bill. 

 
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You made an academic statement which I agree with.

I am super surprised folks think Biden will spend more than Trump.  I find that hard to believe.
I think Trump’s pandemic spending will be the outlier unless Biden gets us in another military quagmire.  

 

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