Jump to content
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Biden’s plan: 1.9 trillion for Covid relief


Recommended Posts

Love that this is the last thing mentioned... ho hum...schluff into bill

A $15 minimum wage. Biden’s proposal asks Congress to increase the minimum wage to $15 per hour as well as ending the tipped minimum wage and sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities. It also calls on employers to provide hazard pay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, timschochet said:

A personal anecdote: several of the tenants in the retail shopping centers I manage will be very pleased about the small business loan part. They have really suffered over the last year, particularly restaurants, hair and nail salons, and gyms. 

Of the places you manage, how many do you think don’t make it 6 months from now?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apparently some members of the left are upset that the bill does not include any student loan forgiveness. I would personally love to see some movement on this issue as I believe it would be a terrific economic spur, but I agree with Biden’s people that it doesn’t belong in this bill. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Of the places you manage, how many do you think don’t make it 6 months from now?

I’m very afraid of the answer to this question. And also hopeful. Some of the centers I manage (not all) are owned by my family and we have tried to be very generous with rental abatement. Not every landlord has. We weren’t being altruistic; we did it to help them survive. It’s an open question. 
I just don’t know. 

Edited by timschochet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Love that this is the last thing mentioned... ho hum...schluff into bill

A $15 minimum wage. Biden’s proposal asks Congress to increase the minimum wage to $15 per hour as well as ending the tipped minimum wage and sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities. It also calls on employers to provide hazard pay.

I’ve always been opposed to this because of its effect on small business. But I can also see the need for it. I wonder how people would feel about a small business exemption? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Apparently some members of the left are upset that the bill does not include any student loan forgiveness. I would personally love to see some movement on this issue as I believe it would be a terrific economic spur, but I agree with Biden’s people that it doesn’t belong in this bill. 

Good.  That would be awful to include

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Love 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I doubt it though how many tips in restaurants are there going to be if everything is takeout? 

Yeah but there is already an exemption for that if minimum wage is 15.

As in they make minimum wage if they dont get there with tips. 

I fully understand a push for a minimum wage of 15, i dont understand the push for eliminating tip wage. And I certainly dont understand either being inserted into a covid bill. I really hate politicians. 

Edited by parasaurolophus
  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I dont understand the push to end tipped minimum wage. Do servers actually want this? 

Like a lot of things, I expect the reaction is mixed and may depend on how the question is asked.

Should tipped min wage be raised to standard min wage, all else remains?  Different question than "should tipped min wage be raised and the practice of tipping be ended?"

On the former, I suspect most would say yes if you said tips would keep coming as always.  On the latter, I suspect a wide variance based on type of restaurant.  That is, a server at a high-end steakhouse will answer differently than a server at a local burger joint.  I also suspect a waiter might well answer differently than a bartender.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I dont understand the push to end tipped minimum wage. Do servers actually want this? 

My guess is really depends on the type of restaurant. I assume restaurants will just raise the costs and the tip will just be factored into the cost of the meal in the first place which I am actually fine with. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Love that this is the last thing mentioned... ho hum...schluff into bill

A $15 minimum wage. Biden’s proposal asks Congress to increase the minimum wage to $15 per hour as well as ending the tipped minimum wage and sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities. It also calls on employers to provide hazard pay.

I’m not sure what minimum wage should be but it does need to be raised though it should probably be tied to cost or living for the particular city/county so maybe somehow tied to median home values or something. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rubio has come out and said the bill is too large, he agrees with the $2000 checks but wants a separate bill to deal with that. I dont think Democrats will fall into the trap of separating the more popular stuff out, especially when they can achieve a lot of this through budget reconciliation- they don’t have to worry about the filibuster is my understanding. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Isn't part of the reason to end tipped wages to prevent tax evasion?  I don't know that for sure but I've always assumed that servers routinely underreport their tip income.

if by underreport you mean they dont report it at all and pretend it never happened then i think that is right in my experience take that to the bank brohans 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I doubt it though how many tips in restaurants are there going to be if everything is takeout? 

You don’t need any servers in that scenario.  I do some bartending on the side and I don’t want the min wage increase in place of tips.  If that’s the case, I’ve poured my last drink.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Rubio has come out and said the bill is too large, he agrees with the $2000 checks but wants a separate bill to deal with that. I dont think Democrats will fall into the trap of separating the more popular stuff out, especially when they can achieve a lot of this through budget reconciliation- they don’t have to worry about the filibuster is my understanding. 

I think it's $1400 checks to add to the previous $600 to make a total of $2000. The Democrats were in favor of adding the extra $1400 a couple weeks ago. It's not going to look good for them to now appear to be holding that money hostage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, dgreen said:

I think it's $1400 checks to add to the previous $600 to make a total of $2000. The Democrats were in favor of adding the extra $1400 a couple weeks ago. It's not going to look good for them to now appear to be holding that money hostage.

No doubt that will be the Republican selling point. But I’m not sure it will fly; the public seems open to a big package and I imagine it will get done. After some fierce negotiating of course. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

You don’t need any servers in that scenario.  I do some bartending on the side and I don’t want the min wage increase in place of tips.  If that’s the case, I’ve poured my last drink.

That makes sense. 
I imagine there will be large pushback on this issue and it wouldn’t surprise me to see it gone from the final package. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

You don’t need any servers in that scenario.  I do some bartending on the side and I don’t want the min wage increase in place of tips.  If that’s the case, I’ve poured my last drink.

What if your employer just paid you 60K a year or whatever you actually earn each year pouring drinks?

  • Thinking 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Isn't part of the reason to end tipped wages to prevent tax evasion?  I don't know that for sure but I've always assumed that servers routinely underreport their tip income.

I highly doubt thats why democrats want to put this in the covid relief bill. Especially when that amount evaded gets smaller every year as cash payments decrease.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

Why not? If the employer charges an extra buck per drink or whatever the calculus is, wouldn't it all even out in the end?

Well you just explained the problem yourself: the employer would have to charge an extra buck per drink. Which means less drinks purchased, which means less income, which means the employer can’t afford it, 

Now you may be assuming that the customer will be willing to spend an extra dollar on the drink instead of an extra dollar on the tip, but it doesn’t work that way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

What if your employer just paid you 60K a year or whatever you actually earn each year pouring drinks?

You realize the price of the drinks and food will go up substantially if that min wage is raised, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you are going to have small businesses that are barely making it now and tell them you have to increase your payroll on top of everything else? Yeah, that seems smart. 

Great job guys snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, FairWarning said:

You realize the price of the drinks and food will go up substantially if that min wage is raised, right?

Actually the reality is probably worse: it will go up substantially in small businesses. Corporate owned restaurants will absorb the costs, desiring to stay competitive with each other. Which means in that in the end it will be just another way that corporations drive out small businesses who can’t compete. Which is the negative aspect of every government imposed regulation of this kind. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

You realize the price of the drinks and food will go up substantially if that min wage is raised, right?

Yes. But nearly every server/bartender I know makes more than 15 bucks an hour when you include tips. If every place raises their prices and eliminates tips, I think people will realize that they aren't actually paying more than they used to. Well, at least the decent tippers will realize

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Courtjester said:

So you are going to have small businesses that are barely making it now and tell them you have to increase your payroll on top of everything else? Yeah, that seems smart. 

Great job guys snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

Agreed and I think conservatives should focus on this as their main issue of opposition. Hopefully it will be removed, or at least reasonably altered, in the final package. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must be missing what "tipped minimum wage" here.

I waited and bussed tables for a good chunk of my 20s. Back then, the state minimum wage for tipped employees was $2.13/hr -- half of the federal $4.25/hr minimum wage. The state tipped minimum did not index with the federal minimum -- when the federal minimum went up to $4.75 and $5.15 ... the state tipped minimum stayed at $2.13/hr.

I worked for a large mid-scale chain restaurant that had locations from coast to coast. Accordingly, we'd sometimes get transfer employees from other parts of the country. The wait staff coming over from California and Washington state reported that back home, they were making their state minimum wage ($7.25/hr for CA) PLUS tips. Now, I know the standard of living in L.A. and Seattle was and is higher than in New Orleans, but still -- an extra five bucks an hour added to our base wage would have been much appreciated, needless to say.

So ... isn't this new stimulus plan calling for tipped employees to make the proposed minimum ($15/hr) PLUS tips still? So that a bartender like FairWarning gets a nice bump in his base hourly wage and still gets the same tips on top of that? Or do I have this wrong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, dawgtrails said:

Yes. But nearly every server/bartender I know makes more than 15 bucks an hour when you include tips. If every place raises their prices and eliminates tips, I think people will realize that they aren't actually paying more than they used to. Well, at least the decent tippers will realize

I think you’re wrong because there’s a psychological aspect to tipping: the customer gets to decide the amount. You take that away and even if the overall amount is the same it won’t seem the same. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Doug B said:

I must be missing what "tipped minimum wage" here.

I waited and bussed tables for a good chunk of my 20s. Back then, the state minimum wage for tipped employees was $2.13/hr -- half of the federal $4.25/hr minimum wage. The state tipped minimum did not index with the federal minimum -- when the federal minimum went up to $4.75 and $5.15 ... the state tipped minimum stayed at $2.13/hr.

I worked for a large mid-scale chain restaurant that had locations from coast to coast. Accordingly, we'd sometimes get transfer employees from other parts of the country. The wait staff coming over from California and Washington state reported that back home, they were making their state minimum wage ($7.25/hr for CA) PLUS tips. Now, I know the standard of living in L.A. and Seattle was and is higher than in New Orleans, but still -- an extra five bucks an hour added to our base wage would have been much appreciated, needless to say.

So ... isn't this new stimulus plan calling for tipped employees to make the proposed minimum ($15/hr) PLUS tips still? So that a bartender like FairWarning gets a nice bump in his base hourly wage and still gets the same tips on top of that? Or do I have this wrong?

Good question I don’t know. I assumed that what @parasaurolophuswrote is true: it’s either/or. 
But if what you’re saying is true then it’s even more of a burden on the small business owner: how are they supposed to afford this? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, SWC said:

if by underreport you mean they dont report it at all and pretend it never happened then i think that is right in my experience take that to the bank brohans 

Careful, bromigo -- look at the top line of this chart. See that $5.12 figure? That means servers and bartenders now have to claim at least $3.00/hr to assure themselves of avoiding an audit. And that was a thing in the 1990s, too, though I'm sure the $5.12 figure was different then.

...

(Dang -- the minimum FEDERAL tipped wage is STILL $2.13. Though most states do a lot better than that.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

Yes. But nearly every server/bartender I know makes more than 15 bucks an hour when you include tips. If every place raises their prices and eliminates tips, I think people will realize that they aren't actually paying more than they used to. Well, at least the decent tippers will realize

Eliminating tips?

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think raising the minimum wage to $15 will result in $5 a loaf bread, $10 for 12 ounces of bacon, $18 for a pound of coffee and $14 Happy meals - labor costs increasing for businesses will absolutely result in rises in goods/services

When that happens, the lowest income will still be lowest income, the middle class (like me) who didn't get a raise, will still pay for the higher goods and services and we'll suffer. Fixed income people will really suffer the most

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

Yes. But nearly every server/bartender I know makes more than 15 bucks an hour when you include tips. If every place raises their prices and eliminates tips, I think people will realize that they aren't actually paying more than they used to. Well, at least the decent tippers will realize

I think it would depend on the distribution of tips. Let's say you have two people each order $10 worth of drinks (I don't drink, so I don't know what good numbers are). One person tips $1 and another customer tips $10. So, two customers, one paying $11 and the other $20. Without tips you still want to maintain $31 total revenue. If you now make the drinks $15.50, the first customer who used to pay $11 may no longer be a customer. And the second customer who used to pay $20 is now only paying $15.50 and your total revenue is $15.50. So if you lose one customer, you'd have to charge $31 to your remaining customer who may no longer be a customer at that price.

Obviously that's an oversimplified and totally made up example. But, the point is, tipping allows for a certain level of revenue to be achieved by not "charging" everyone the same price.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

But if what you’re saying is true then it’s even more of a burden on the small business owner: how are they supposed to afford this? 

Looking at the Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees chart (US Dept of Labor) that I just cited for SWC ... many states have various carve-outs and exceptions for small businesses (defined in a few different ways -- # of employees, annual sales, etc.).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:
8 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Eliminating tips?

I hope so. It's a ridiculous system

No, I mean is that in the bill's language?

EDIT: The Vox article makes it sound like tipped employees are to make $15/hr PLUS tips. Parasaurolophus quotes Vox's paraphrase directly upthread, third post of this thread.

Edited by Doug B
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Doug B said:

No, I mean is that in the bill's language?

I didn't read it :)

Just seems like a natural follow up though. If company X needs to pay employee Y that much more money per hour they will need to raise their prices. I can't see customers wanting to pay that much more and tip on top

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:
1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

I dont understand the push to end tipped minimum wage. Do servers actually want this? 

Like a lot of things, I expect the reaction is mixed and may depend on how the question is asked.

Should tipped min wage be raised to standard min wage, all else remains?  Different question than "should tipped min wage be raised and the practice of tipping be ended?"

On the former, I suspect most would say yes if you said tips would keep coming as always.  On the latter, I suspect a wide variance based on type of restaurant.  That is, a server at a high-end steakhouse will answer differently than a server at a local burger joint.  I also suspect a waiter might well answer differently than a bartender.

Something I've always wondered is why a place doesn't "guarantee" a minimum wage, but if they clear that in tips, then they get their tips.  So if it's $15 an hour, they pay you that if you don't get there in tips or at minimum bridge that gap...if they get close and are $100 off or something, the employer pays that.

Does any of my rambling make sense?  :lol: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Good question I don’t know. I assumed that what @parasaurolophuswrote is true: it’s either/or. 
But if what you’re saying is true then it’s even more of a burden on the small business owner: how are they supposed to afford this? 

What i wrote applied to your scenario where waitstaff was seeing a substantial decrease in tips. In other words if a waiter was averaging 15 dollars an hour in tips before and now was seeing 3. They would make 15 bucks an hour still since they cant get paid overall less than minimum wage. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Something I've always wondered is why a place doesn't "guarantee" a minimum wage, but if they clear that in tips, then they get their tips.  So if it's $15 an hour, they pay you that if you don't get there in tips or at minimum bridge that gap...if they get close and are $100 off or something, the employer pays that.

Does any of my rambling make sense?  :lol: 

I like this idea a lot actually. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

I like this idea a lot actually. 

:hifive:

This is absolutely what I'd do if I were a restaurant/bar owner.....would also help me identify those that were "good" to an extent as well.  I'm just glad someone else understood the babble.  Brain doesn't seem to be working that well this fine Friday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would take some time to get this ingrained ... but one middle ground for today's tipped employees is a service-charge-based system similar to many establishments in Europe (my memory is that it's common in France at anything large than a neighborhood eight-table bistro).

So. Instead of hiking up prices fully to make up the $15/hr ... (larger) restaurants do two things; (1) increase prices modestly and over time, and (2) add a 5-10% "service charge". I'd put the initial service-charge sweet spot at 7.5% or 8%, but it's just a jumping-off point.

Dollars to donuts ... a lot of people used to current American tipping will tend to "overtip" -- on top of the 10%-higher priced mean and the 8% service charge, they'll thrown on a few more bucks. Not a whole 'nother 15-20%, but a few more. Rounding up to the nearest tens of dollars. Things like that.

Tipped employees could make out well in the end, though there would be a good decade-plus of adjustment. But this stuff has changed before, and not forever ago. For restaurant meals, 10% tipping was A-OK for a good while (after WWII to maybe the mid 1960s?), then 15% was the suggestion at least 30 more years, and now 20% seems like the go-to figure. Is 25% standard tipping palatable? People would adjust, but I think Americans could adjust to a service-charge system, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
  • Create New...