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Biden’s plan: 1.9 trillion for Covid relief


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14 minutes ago, The Commish said:

A good portion of the reason why is because the debtors can't get out of them....there is very little to no risk for the lenders.  Free flow of that kind of money allows schools to just raise their prices.

In Wisconsin, you can pretty much account for tuition growth by cuts in state funding:

 

https://web.education.wisc.edu/nwhillman/index.php/2017/02/09/state-funding-trends-for-the-uw-system/

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47 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Instead of forgiving it on the backside, can we attack the reason why somebody needs to go $50-100K in debt for a basic degree?  I am guessing most of us remember being able to work and pay off your college.   I just checked the UW-Madison site, and the tuition is 10x+ what it was when I was there years ago.   I guarantee that college grads aren't making 10x more than they were 30 years ago.   

 

No - because that's not fact. This is an important discussion that needs to be had, but the basis must be rooted in reality.

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10 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Does that put you at the UW about '97 or so?   I was there '93-'97, and I think the highest mine got to was in that 1400-1500/semester range, but I am not 100% sure.   I think when I started it was about 1200/semester.  

Yeah, it's sad when I have to talk to my son about these things.  I know in the past he has said he's thought about teaching, and it's sad that the first thing that pops into my head is "oof - $100k for a degree you will be paying off for decades at that salary?".    It makes my stomach churn when I talk to the kids that work at the store about how much their school is and what they are going for.   So much debt.  

Exact same years man.  Small world.  I don't remember the exact tuition either, but your memory sounds right.

Completely understand.  My son has already expressed in these words "I'm scared that I won't be able to do as well as you guys."   He means economically.  He's 12.  And he's worried about school costs, getting a job, having a career that pays him enough to live, etc.  He's freaking 12.  It breaks my heart.

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3 minutes ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

In Wisconsin, you can pretty much account for tuition growth by cuts in state funding:

 

https://web.education.wisc.edu/nwhillman/index.php/2017/02/09/state-funding-trends-for-the-uw-system/

I don't know how prevalent this angle is because I only hear it within my higher ed bubble, but it sure seems most are not informed with this issue. Cause this has been an increasingly problematic issue for years. 

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2 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Facts are good things.  What number would you pick based on your link?

It's all relevant. All information must be absorbed then applied to one's unique situation. I think our problem is rooted in those that go $30K in debt; not the $50+ pool. Is everyone that's $50K+ in debt irresponsible? No, of course not. But a greater % than the lesser pool? Well, yeah.

Minimize the burden on the $30K group, which would also improve the situation of those that go deeper in debt. How is that accomplished? Depends on who you ask. We're way too divided to agree on something like this right now. 

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7 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

It's all relevant. All information must be absorbed then applied to one's unique situation. I think our problem is rooted in those that go $30K in debt; not the $50+ pool. Is everyone that's $50K+ in debt irresponsible? No, of course not. But a greater % than the lesser pool? Well, yeah.

Minimize the burden on the $30K group, which would also improve the situation of those that go deeper in debt. How is that accomplished? Depends on who you ask. We're way too divided to agree on something like this right now. 

Where does the $30K number come from?

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24 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure what that link disputes on first glance.  I saw average in state public as 25k a year.  

I strongly recommend reading it in full. It's a lot of information to soak in at once. The $25K number (tuition + R&B) you saw only represents the top 15% of states. Wisconsin is 41st at $17K.

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5 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

I strongly recommend reading it in full. It's a lot of information to soak in at once. The $25K number (tuition + R&B) you saw only represents the top 15% of states. Wisconsin is 41st at $17K.

I understand there would be a range.  This am I just looked at UWs page to get a number for comparison since I know what my tuition cost back in the day.  If i remember right, the UW extensions like LaCrosse are more like 12-15/ year.  

Also sad I am worried about this in a state that ranks 41st, but I also realize I am probably a bottom 1%er as far as FBGs income too. 

For sure there are ways to keep costs down, and I admit I am talking in general terms

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59 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Exact same years man.  Small world.  I don't remember the exact tuition either, but your memory sounds right.

Completely understand.  My son has already expressed in these words "I'm scared that I won't be able to do as well as you guys."   He means economically.  He's 12.  And he's worried about school costs, getting a job, having a career that pays him enough to live, etc.  He's freaking 12.  It breaks my heart.

Ok if you lived in Sellery in '94 that would be weird.  

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:
1 hour ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Exact same years man.  Small world.  I don't remember the exact tuition either, but your memory sounds right.

Completely understand.  My son has already expressed in these words "I'm scared that I won't be able to do as well as you guys."   He means economically.  He's 12.  And he's worried about school costs, getting a job, having a career that pays him enough to live, etc.  He's freaking 12.  It breaks my heart.

Ok if you lived in Sellery in '94 that would be weird.  

I hope we find out you guys smoked out of a bong together

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

I understand there would be a range.  This am I just looked at UWs page to get a number for comparison since I know what my tuition cost back in the day.  If i remember right, the UW extensions like LaCrosse are more like 12-15/ year.  

Also sad I am worried about this in a state that ranks 41st, but I also realize I am probably a bottom 1%er as far as FBGs income too. 

For sure there are ways to keep costs down, and I admit I am talking in general terms

Colleges should be held accountable for their prior frivolous spending and poor planning. The 1%ers aren't, but the invisible hand is doing work on the rest. It's way...way more than just that though. Where higher ed fumbled the football is not accounting for the decrease in high school graduates over recent years - because there are less of them. That's something that should have been planned for, but generally across the industry was not. The state funding issue though...isn't anything institutions can do about that. Need to pressure policy makers to fix that and I've not gotten the sense that's a priority...well, anywhere really. 

I think more school closures are coming - and are necessary. But for the tuition number to go the other way and not stay steady states need to prioritize higher ed to other current priorities.

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

It is quite selfish to want others to pay for our debts. 

In some cases, sure...agree.

That said, I try to look at what this country would likely be if we were personally responsible for every single aspect of our participation in our Republic and when I do, it's not pretty....there's a balancing act here.  I'll say again though, I'm not a fan of just erasing the debts.  

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10 hours ago, The Commish said:

Because we are selfish as a people and can't seem to look beyond our personal wants/desires?

Probably because “make someone else pay for my college” doesn’t play as well. Just spitballing

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11 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

It is quite selfish to want others to pay for our debts. 

Why we need to raise taxes.  With the spin off benefits that higher taxes means real demand to cut spending and legal tax avoidance schemes (like reinvesting in your business) are good for the economy.

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12 hours ago, derek245583 said:

Probably because “make someone else pay for my college” doesn’t play as well. Just spitballing

Perhaps.....it would have to be a quite a deficiency in self awareness to NOT understand we all pay for things for each other already as a matter of necessity and keeping society safe and in check.  Arguments can be made for our education contributing to that success of our society.  Arguments can be made against education contribution (though not as successfully IMO).  It's a complicated issue to be sure and really it really serves us no purpose to reduce it to a bad talking point.

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22 hours ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Exact same years man.  Small world.  I don't remember the exact tuition either, but your memory sounds right.

Completely understand.  My son has already expressed in these words "I'm scared that I won't be able to do as well as you guys."   He means economically.  He's 12.  And he's worried about school costs, getting a job, having a career that pays him enough to live, etc.  He's freaking 12.  It breaks my heart.

He can learn a trade and be miles ahead also. Not trolling but those jobs are always in demand.  

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20 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

It is quite selfish to want others to pay for our debts. 

Does this apply equally for all things for you - banks, businesses, house loans?   

I get the gut reaction that we don't want all student loans to evaporate, but I think it's a racket that there are 0 protections for people to get out of that student loan in certain circumstances like we have for the above type of loans.  

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7 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Does this apply equally for all things for you - banks, businesses, house loans?   

I get the gut reaction that we don't want all student loans to evaporate, but I think it's a racket that there are 0 protections for people to get out of that student loan in certain circumstances like we have for the above type of loans.  

Sure, let's forgive my mortgage while we're at it.  Car payment too?

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23 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Does that put you at the UW about '97 or so?   I was there '93-'97, and I think the highest mine got to was in that 1400-1500/semester range, but I am not 100% sure.   I think when I started it was about 1200/semester.  

Yeah, it's sad when I have to talk to my son about these things.  I know in the past he has said he's thought about teaching, and it's sad that the first thing that pops into my head is "oof - $100k for a degree you will be paying off for decades at that salary?".    It makes my stomach churn when I talk to the kids that work at the store about how much their school is and what they are going for.   So much debt.  

You need to look into the federal student loan forgiveness program. I know a lot of teachers that will be debt free in just a few years. 

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1 minute ago, CR69 said:
23 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Does that put you at the UW about '97 or so?   I was there '93-'97, and I think the highest mine got to was in that 1400-1500/semester range, but I am not 100% sure.   I think when I started it was about 1200/semester.  

Yeah, it's sad when I have to talk to my son about these things.  I know in the past he has said he's thought about teaching, and it's sad that the first thing that pops into my head is "oof - $100k for a degree you will be paying off for decades at that salary?".    It makes my stomach churn when I talk to the kids that work at the store about how much their school is and what they are going for.   So much debt.  

You need to look into the federal student loan forgiveness program. I know a lot of teachers that will be debt free in just a few years. 

Also - depending on where and what he teaches, it is not unreasonbale for him to make 100K per year down the road.

 

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2 hours ago, FairWarning said:

He can learn a trade and be miles ahead also. Not trolling but those jobs are always in demand.  

Yep.  Very true.  My daughter is more likely to enjoy that route.

Appreciate the thought and know that it isn’t trolling.  Thanks for your kindness!

PS - I’m not worried about his ability to succeed; it is heartbreaking to watch a kid his age have that much fear and anxiety, whether it is rational or not.

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1 hour ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Yep.  Very true.  My daughter is more likely to enjoy that route.

Appreciate the thought and know that it isn’t trolling.  Thanks for your kindness!

PS - I’m not worried about his ability to succeed; it is heartbreaking to watch a kid his age have that much fear and anxiety, whether it is rational or not.

I live a qtr mile from three people who own HVAC businesses.  All three have people working for them.  One doesn’t need to go to Stanford for general business classes - just a JC will do.   It’s tough to see a 12-YO worry about college, just needs good guidance.  He’s probably changing his mind 5 times between now and graduating HS.

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universities/colleges are going to jack their prices up enmourously now that the Fed Govt is looking to pay the bill - it'll cots $25,000 a semester in no time for a community college :(

if Biden leaves office in 4 years with our country UNDER 40Trillion in debt, I'll be surprised 

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5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

universities/colleges are going to jack their prices up enmourously now that the Fed Govt is looking to pay the bill - it'll cots $25,000 a semester in no time for a community college :(

if Biden leaves office in 4 years with our country UNDER 40Trillion in debt, I'll be surprised 

This is my concern about free college.  It already is like a puppy mill, churning out worthless degrees while the grad has massive debt.  

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On 1/19/2021 at 10:33 AM, KarmaPolice said:
On 1/19/2021 at 9:32 AM, Alex P Keaton said:

Exact same years man.  Small world.  I don't remember the exact tuition either, but your memory sounds right.

Completely understand.  My son has already expressed in these words "I'm scared that I won't be able to do as well as you guys."   He means economically.  He's 12.  And he's worried about school costs, getting a job, having a career that pays him enough to live, etc.  He's freaking 12.  It breaks my heart.

Ok if you lived in Sellery in '94 that would be weird.  

If either of you guys ever had a beer at the Crystal Corner on Willie Street, there's a decent chance I poured it - at least in 93/94 which were the last years I worked there. 

 

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On 1/17/2021 at 10:38 AM, CR69 said:

What did people get when they continued to pay their mortgage instead of walking away from their home during the housing collapse? Life is rarely fair unfortunately. In this situation though, removing the crippling debt from your fellow citizens should, in theory, give them more money to spend which is good for the economy and hopefully that does benefit you down the road. Good for the gander and all that. 

Except for the fact that for the vast majority of student loan recipients the debt is modest and anything but "crippling".  This is a complete mischaracterization of what the reality is. 

 

On 1/17/2021 at 1:08 PM, The Commish said:

That said...not a fan of debt forgiveness, but I do think it should be allowed to be settled through bankruptcy and I am 100000% aware of the ramifications that would introduce and I"m ok with those.  Rip the bandaid off and start new.

Sure, agreed.  As long as the taxpayer is protected and future loans are then treated as a personal non-recourse loan, which is essentially what they are. Prevailing interest rates for those are 15-20%, at the least.  Let's recognize the risk for what it is if we allow for regular bankruptcy and take steps to protect the taxpayer.

 

On 1/19/2021 at 8:42 AM, KarmaPolice said:

Instead of forgiving it on the backside, can we attack the reason why somebody needs to go $50-100K in debt for a basic degree?  I am guessing most of us remember being able to work and pay off your college.   I just checked the UW-Madison site, and the tuition is 10x+ what it was when I was there years ago.   I guarantee that college grads aren't making 10x more than they were 30 years ago.   

Universities dramatically increased non teaching payroll, etc. with the huge flow of monies from the Feds.  It is estimated that 67 cents on every Pell Grant dollar inflated costs instead of subsidizing them.  We gave universities huge gobs of cash and they raised prices to capture as much as possible.  Some part of this is also the decreasing state support, but a huge part is the ocean of cash we've provided these institutions. 

 

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43 minutes ago, Sand said:

Except for the fact that for the vast majority of student loan recipients the debt is modest and anything but "crippling".  This is a complete mischaracterization of what the reality is. 

 

Sure, agreed.  As long as the taxpayer is protected and future loans are then treated as a personal non-recourse loan, which is essentially what they are. Prevailing interest rates for those are 15-20%, at the least.  Let's recognize the risk for what it is if we allow for regular bankruptcy and take steps to protect the taxpayer.

 

Universities dramatically increased non teaching payroll, etc. with the huge flow of monies from the Feds.  It is estimated that 67 cents on every Pell Grant dollar inflated costs instead of subsidizing them.  We gave universities huge gobs of cash and they raised prices to capture as much as possible.  Some part of this is also the decreasing state support, but a huge part is the ocean of cash we've provided these institutions. 

 

As someone who helps people buy homes and literally sees thousands of credit reports a year, a lot of our fellow citizens are crippled by their student loans. 

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46 minutes ago, Sand said:

Except for the fact that for the vast majority of student loan recipients the debt is modest and anything but "crippling".  This is a complete mischaracterization of what the reality is. 

For some reason, people have a really difficult time with this point.  Most college graduates graduate with no debt whatsoever.  Among those who do graduate with debt, the average debt load is about $30K, which is comparable to a typical new car loan.  Many of the folks who graduate with six-figure debt acquired that debt by pursuing a professional degree.  None of this stuff is a big deal, let alone a crisis.  

I do have some sympathy for people who borrow for college and never graduate.  

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On 1/19/2021 at 9:19 AM, KarmaPolice said:

Yeah, it's sad when I have to talk to my son about these things.  I know in the past he has said he's thought about teaching, and it's sad that the first thing that pops into my head is "oof - $100k for a degree you will be paying off for decades at that salary?".    It makes my stomach churn when I talk to the kids that work at the store about how much their school is and what they are going for.   So much debt.  

There's no reason why you should be paying $100,000 for a teaching degree unless you're deliberately spending some of that money on "the college experience" as opposed to career prep.  Which is completely fine, of course -- we're doing exactly that with one of my kids.  But there are a ton of affordable options out there for that career path.

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