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58 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

It seems they are saying we are all for inclusion as long as it doesn't create an unfair advantage or effect the end results, which is what I'm saying.  Just letting trans girls compete with cis girls isn't fair to the cis girls.  There is no getting around that fact.

I think they are saying that we should stop arguing from extreme positions such as "they can only compete with those born the same way" (or however you worded it) and start talking to each other and find a middle ground that is inclusive for trans gender girls (specifically those that “have experienced all or part of male puberty”)  that doesn't ask cis girls to give up all of the opportunities that women have been struggling to achieve for decades.   Sure their position is that we should always err on the side of the cis girls they at the very least seem to place a value on inclusion.  Maybe I'm reading more into it then they intend but I think when they say they "all have benefited from sport" that they mean more than titles, medals, fame, and fortune.  But again maybe I'm reading too much into it. 

Edited by Bottomfeeder Sports
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Biological males playing female sports is not a good idea.  

I do appreciate that this thread is nearly 100% cordial and respectful. If this thread popped up 10 years ago, I can't imagine the level of discourse would be anywhere near this. It is such a com

I find it very difficult to take your strong opinions in this thread seriously when you exhibit such a breathtaking lack of knowledge on the actual subject matter.   I would suggest reading some

4 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Think about this for a second.  I think I get your point, but to make the standard of care what people want is a pretty bad idea in general.   People want a lot of things that are detrimental to others, and I think that is exactly what we are dealing with here. 

My comment wasn't about transgendered athletes.  It was in reference to the poster's obvious bias against transgendered persons, in general, given the tone in their post.

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10 minutes ago, Steve Tasker said:

My comment wasn't about transgendered athletes.  It was in reference to the poster's obvious bias against transgendered persons, in general, given the tone in their post.

Huh?  You twisted something I posted into something I neither said NOR implied.

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10 hours ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

But I think we do get it.  I think the "poo-poo"'ing is mostly not happening.  That is I think in this thread there are those that are of the position that 100% of transgendered girls should not be ever allowed to compete in a girls event.  Not ever.  I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that 100% of the time a transgendered girl must be allowed to compete in girls events.  I do see "suck it up" being expressed for transgendered girls, but I don't really see it for your son's friend.  Maybe I'm just too biased and am missing it from "my side".  But I think "my side" is simply that a total ban is not an appropriate means to address the issues.  I think my side is that as asserting one self as a trans girl becomes more common such that the issues increase in magnitude that this will be mitigated by more and more trans girls thwarting male puberty and not growing up to be men that dominate in these events.   I think my side is of the opinion that we are in the early stages of something new to deal with and we will make mistakes, that people will be hurt by those mistakes but that we owe it to everyone to try to figure it out.  While the other side is that is of the opinion that we just need to put an end to this talk right now as it is "ridiculous" to be asked to care.  

I think that even though we are looking at this issue from very different lenses, very different experiences that most everyone in this thread - even those I seem to disagree with are really on my side.  And only a few are stubbornly stuck in an absolute world where there is a 100% of the time... 

Yeah - I disagree and feel like you are painting people on the opposite side as irrational and insensitive when I see this thread as being fairly productive (save a few folks that I already had on ignore which may fit your "100%" thing). 

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8 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

It was the right thing to do. Hopefully the rest of the states will follow with the same legislation.

Seems like the risk of bullying and exclusion is much higher when biological men compete against females. If we are looking for a "fair" society the playing field is not level for the females going against the males.

Would society be OK with not having male or female sports/teams and just letting the best regardless of sex compete against each other?  No PGA and LPGA events, just an open golf event, same with tennis, track and field, BB and so forth.

Edited by Da Guru
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I totally support personal freedoms for all.

That being said all we hear today about COVID and Climate is "follow and believe in the Science"  Science shows us that people are born female and male.  That is undisputed.

Sports Science has proven that biological males have a distinct edge when competing head to head against biological females. Making it unfair to the females who are competing.  

In a society that wants us to believe in science why won`t we listen in this matter?

Selina Soule a female track athlete "Just like everyone, I race to win. now that is virtually impossible now due to the unlevel playing field"

Donna Lopiano " Women want trans males who identify as females to be treated fairly. But that cost of fair treatment is now discriminating against actual biological females. We are not talking about bathrooms, sports are much different.

Science has proven that biological trans males to be superior in speed, power, strength over biological females.  There is no debate on that.

So should people be more "woke" on this topic?  We hear equality all the time.

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26 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

I totally support personal freedoms for all.

That being said all we hear today about COVID and Climate is "follow and believe in the Science"  Science shows us that people are born female and male.  That is undisputed.

 

Not that it has anything to do with transgenders, but one study showed that almost 2% of babies born have some intersex characteristics and aren't strictly male or female

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3 hours ago, Da Guru said:

Seems like the risk of bullying and exclusion is much higher when biological men compete against females. If we are looking for a "fair" society the playing field is not level for the females going against the males.

Would society be OK with not having male or female sports/teams and just letting the best regardless of sex compete against each other?  No PGA and LPGA events, just an open golf event, same with tennis, track and field, BB and so forth.

I doubt it.  If we did that then we would absolutely guarantee that women would never be able to play sports because biological men would dominate every single one of them.

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12 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

It was the right thing to do. Hopefully the rest of the states will follow with the same legislation.

Yeah, let's follow the lead of the most progressive state in the union. 

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9 hours ago, Summer Wheat said:

I totally support personal freedoms for all.

That being said all we hear today about COVID and Climate is "follow and believe in the Science"  Science shows us that people are born female and male.  That is undisputed.

Sports Science has proven that biological males have a distinct edge when competing head to head against biological females. Making it unfair to the females who are competing.  

In a society that wants us to believe in science why won`t we listen in this matter?

Selina Soule a female track athlete "Just like everyone, I race to win. now that is virtually impossible now due to the unlevel playing field"

Donna Lopiano " Women want trans males who identify as females to be treated fairly. But that cost of fair treatment is now discriminating against actual biological females. We are not talking about bathrooms, sports are much different.

Science has proven that biological trans males to be superior in speed, power, strength over biological females.  There is no debate on that.

So should people be more "woke" on this topic?  We hear equality all the time.

Like the post below explained - it's not quite that cut and dry.   

I am all for what I gather is the main message of the post.  This is why I honestly struggle with this topic - I get the science of it, and it rubs up against me wanting to be as inclusive as possible with people.   

Let's not pretend this inconsistency goes one way.  I fully agree that people need to embrace science more.   That applies to people on the left for this topic and it applies to people on the right about other things - don't embrace science denial for covid, climate change, etc..  

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On 2/14/2021 at 12:07 PM, squistion said:

Yeah, let's follow the lead of the most progressive state in the union. 

This topic is getting taboo for Democrats who are afraid to speak their minds.  My wife has a few friends who are as left as they come but are totally against bioligical men competing against women as they have daughters who play sports.  You can be a true Dem and also be against men competing against women.  People can be open minded and not agree with biden on this topic.   

Don`t you agree?

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On 2/14/2021 at 12:07 PM, squistion said:

Yeah, let's follow the lead of the most progressive state in the union. 

Way to get an attempt at a zinger on MS because they recognize men should not be competing against women in sports.  Great job

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2 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Way to get an attempt at a zinger on MS because they recognize men should not be competing against women in sports.  Great job

I noticed that too, and was going to say something about the assumption that progressivism = good, but I refrained when I thought about who was posting it. It's just all noise. As he would post

:hophead:

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2 hours ago, rockaction said:

I noticed that too, and was going to say something about the assumption that progressivism = good, but I refrained when I thought about who was posting it. It's just all noise. As he would post

:hophead:

progressivism CAN be good, but it can also be bad in some situations. This is one of them.

I think most progressives who support this are looking for "The Next Big CauseTM".  That's their life - always a cause. Gotta' keep out-doing "The Last Big CauseTM".   "The Man" is always trying to bring someone down so we must fight!  It's like they want the 60's all over again, every decade.

They want change for change's sake and for something to do. 

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5 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

progressivism CAN be good, but it can also be bad in some situations. This is one of them.

I think most progressives who support this are looking for "The Next Big CauseTM".  That's their life - always a cause. Gotta' keep out-doing "The Last Big CauseTM".   "The Man" is always trying to bring someone down so we must fight!  It's like they want the 60's all over again, every decade.

They want change for change's sake and for something to do. 

I have the sudden urge to watch PCU

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16 hours ago, Da Guru said:

This topic is getting taboo for Democrats who are afraid to speak their minds.  My wife has a few friends who are as left as they come but are totally against bioligical men competing against women as they have daughters who play sports.  You can be a true Dem and also be against men competing against women.  People can be open minded and not agree with biden on this topic.   

Don`t you agree?

I agree.  One thing I wonder is are your wifes friends against it because it could affect their daughters performance?

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5 hours ago, FairWarning said:

I agree.  One thing I wonder is are your wifes friends against it because it could affect their daughters performance?

Not sure, it came up because one is on the local school board and said she will fight this and is gathering lots of support.

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I saw this ad on tv the other night for a drug DESCOVY

It said "It is not for use in people assigned female at birth who are at risk of getting HIV from vaginal sex, because its effectiveness has not been studied."

Why would it say such a thing? To say that would indicate a female body is different than a males body - that the mental state of the person doesn't matter, its the biological makeup that matters

right? 

with the above drug the man can believe he's a man all day long ... but if born female, there are warnings against using the drug. 

 

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23 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I saw this ad on tv the other night for a drug DESCOVY

It said "It is not for use in people assigned female at birth who are at risk of getting HIV from vaginal sex, because its effectiveness has not been studied."

Why would it say such a thing? To say that would indicate a female body is different than a males body - that the mental state of the person doesn't matter, its the biological makeup that matters

right? 

with the above drug the man can believe he's a man all day long ... but if born female, there are warnings against using the drug. 

 

Ummm because the randomized controlled trials done on the drug didn't include that population.    Just as if there was a commercial for the a covid vaccine it would say "not for use in people under 18 years old" because the studies for approval didn't include that population.   FDA requirements mandate disclosure of populations not studied when advertising a drug.

But instead you assume some bizarre fever dream connection.

It's disingenuous posts such as yours that I gave up on this board.  Try educating yourself on topics instead of looking to make trumpian right wing "zingers" that are just idiotic and offensive.   

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On 2/15/2021 at 11:57 AM, Da Guru said:

This topic is getting taboo for Democrats who are afraid to speak their minds.  My wife has a few friends who are as left as they come but are totally against bioligical men competing against women as they have daughters who play sports.  You can be a true Dem and also be against men competing against women.  People can be open minded and not agree with biden on this topic.   

Don`t you agree?

“All politics is local” - and how a policy affects your kid is as local as it gets.  I work with a very Liberal lawyer in CT who ran track in the same conference as the transgender runner (Andraya).  It was comical seeing how conflicted she was.  Eventually she came around to the idea it was bad policy.  You know what put her over the edge?  When her 30 year conference record got broken.


In Andraya’ second year the parents who were watching the meets had enough and started circulating a petition.  One of the parents at my son’s school passed around the petition at one of the meets and she told me afterwards that everyone signed it except one person.  People in the liberal state of CT who saw it in action for three years were overwhelmingly against it.

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4 hours ago, ekbeats said:

I work with a very Liberal lawyer in CT

Redundant. Also, it was funnier to watch the contortions the parents were doing over the field hockey guy in Massachusetts in '89. Talk about a trailblazer.

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It's like an old professor of mine once said about old buildings being retrofitted according to ADA guidelines.

"Sometimes, people need to be told by society that there are some things they just can't do and it's for the benefit of the larger good."

I'll leave that for food for thought.

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13 hours ago, rockaction said:

It's like an old professor of mine once said about old buildings being retrofitted according to ADA guidelines.

"Sometimes, people need to be told by society that there are some things they just can't do and it's for the benefit of the larger good."

I'll leave that for food for thought.

I like that quote.  We should be using it more often.

The left has gotten to the point that anytime anyone sheds a tear or has any type of adversity, we must move heaven and earth to accommodate them at the expense of the 99%.

B and S.

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On 3/20/2021 at 2:50 PM, gianmarco said:

I'm unmoved.  Simply put, boys shouldn't be competing against girls.  I'm sorry life has thrown you a curve ball.  Either let it run your life or overcome and adapt.  Don't expect the world to adapt to you.

He's not the only one with daughters.  Well, technically it's his son.  Why should all the other REAL women be forced to have the playing field tilted in favor of fake women (i.e. biological males)?

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3 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

No it's not.  Not even close.  :shrug:

Quote

Dubbed the Fairness in Women's Sports Act, the House bill lays out that female sports teams in Florida are specifically for “biological” women and girls while also creating a path for handling gender disputes by requiring a medical professional to verify a student’s sex.

Florida wants to legislate allowing doctors to check out a kid's genitalia to make sure she can compete in a girls sport. It's demonizing a class of people. "We need to protect real girls from fake ones, especially in sports!" It promotes "us versus them." Once, we were concerned with protecting the "sanctity of marriage," and now it's the "sanctity of women's sports." Really? 

I have a son and a daughter, and I know transgender people. Neither of my kids are transgender, but I can't imagine the difficulty in being trans, or being the parent of a trans child. And I'm relieved I don't have to explain to that child why lawmakers feel the need to legalize exclusion of those kids rather than integration or acceptance. 

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4 minutes ago, phandango said:

Florida wants to legislate allowing doctors to check out a kid's genitalia to make sure she can compete in a girls sport. It's demonizing a class of people. "We need to protect real girls from fake ones, especially in sports!" It promotes "us versus them." Once, we were concerned with protecting the "sanctity of marriage," and now it's the "sanctity of women's sports." Really? 

I have a son and a daughter, and I know transgender people. Neither of my kids are transgender, but I can't imagine the difficulty in being trans, or being the parent of a trans child. And I'm relieved I don't have to explain to that child why lawmakers feel the need to legalize exclusion of those kids rather than integration or acceptance. 

Noone is telling any child that they can’t play school sports.

Edited by Cowboysfan8
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8 minutes ago, phandango said:

Florida wants to legislate allowing doctors to check out a kid's genitalia to make sure she can compete in a girls sport. It's demonizing a class of people. "We need to protect real girls from fake ones, especially in sports!" It promotes "us versus them." Once, we were concerned with protecting the "sanctity of marriage," and now it's the "sanctity of women's sports." Really? 

I have a son and a daughter, and I know transgender people. Neither of my kids are transgender, but I can't imagine the difficulty in being trans, or being the parent of a trans child. And I'm relieved I don't have to explain to that child why lawmakers feel the need to legalize exclusion of those kids rather than integration or acceptance. 

Yeah I can't imagine being a parent of a trans child either. But that's what they are and that's the draw they got.

The fact of the matter is that boys are stronger and faster than women and for me this is not just safety issue, but also a fairness issue for the girls.  Believe or not there's lots of money and opportunity tied up and taking first place championships. When all the top spots are filled with men changing to women that limits the opportunities for actual females.

I mean, it's not even fair.  I don't even know how as biological male you would even feel good about beating a bunch of women.

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9 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Noone is telling any child that they can’t play school sports.

If you read Fatguy's posts (I think that is who has a trans child), in a sense they are telling them that, especially if that is the only area of the child's life where they don't get to be who they choose to be.  

I am still working through my feelings about this complicated topic, but I have really appreciated those posts to put more perspective on how it effects the trans kids.  

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

If you read Fatguy's posts (I think that is who has a trans child), in a sense they are telling them that, especially if that is the only area of the child's life where they don't get to be who they choose to be.  

I am still working through my feelings about this complicated topic, but I have really appreciated those posts to put more perspective on how it effects the trans kids.  

I’ve read them

And I feel for transgender kids, and their parents 

But let’s not pretend that biological girls don’t have things goin on in their lives. Maybe you (or fat guy or whoever) don’t think their problems whatever they may be are as big as trans kids problems, but to the girls and their families.....you’d be wrong. 
 

Just because a kid doesn’t question they’re gender doesn’t mean their lives are peachy keen. Why bend over backwards for the trans kids and ignore the issues the non trans kids may be having in their lives?

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5 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

I’ve read them

And I feel for transgender kids, and their parents 

But let’s not pretend that biological girls don’t have things goin on in their lives. Maybe you (or fat guy or whoever) don’t think their problems whatever they may be are as big as trans kids problems, but to the girls and their families.....you’d be wrong. 
 

Just because a kid doesn’t question they’re gender doesn’t mean their lives are peachy keen. Why bend over backwards for the trans kids and ignore the issues the non trans kids may be having in their lives?

Fantastic jump to conclusions there.   

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16 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Noone is telling any child that they can’t play school sports.

I mean we dont let kids in wheelchairs get electric mods and then race in the state track championships. They can race in wheelchair races or maybe they can be a part of the team and they can go to practice, get a letter, etc. 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Fantastic jump to conclusions there.   

I think his point is that everyone is bending over backwards to make accommodations for them all the while trampling all over everybody else's rights.  Everybody has problems. Trans kids aren't any more special or less special than anyone else.

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I think his point is that everyone is bending over backwards to make accommodations for them all the while trampling all over everybody else's rights.  Everybody has problems. Trans kids aren't any more special or less special than anyone else.

What rights have been trampled over if a trans person is allowed to play?  I guess I didn't know that playing a sport is a right.  

I think the argument is that one group can live their lives how they want with or without this rule, and one can't.  :shrug:  

Like I said, I am still working through this myself and have a lot of mixed thoughts and emotions about it.  I am mostly in the camp of understanding it if safety is an issue, but other than that, not sure.   Mostly, there's no need for even hinting that any poster's don't care about kids or people, which is what I was reacting to.   

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