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21 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

I am unsure of the rules of field hockey. I used to watch it occasionally when I was a high school teacher but absolutely hated it because a whistle blew like every 3 seconds. Awful spectator sport

I just looked quick:

Hockey players may not trip, push, charge, interfere with, or physically handle an opponent in any way. Hockey is a non-contact sport and all fouls result in a free hit or a ‘penalty corner’ for the non-offending team depending on where the infringement took place and the severity of the foul.

 

I could for sure understand it happening in HS then.  I would be interested to know what other examples of boys playing team sports like this would be.  

 

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Biological males playing female sports is not a good idea.  

I do appreciate that this thread is nearly 100% cordial and respectful. If this thread popped up 10 years ago, I can't imagine the level of discourse would be anywhere near this. It is such a com

This.  It's just a simple hard "no" and people are making it more complicated than it needs to be.  If I want to compete on the women's soccer team, the answer is no.  Not because I would dominat

Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If this were true it would allow trans athletes to participate fully in all non-contact sports.  And many trans athletes could even participate in contact sports, depending on some evaluation of their physical strength, etc.  People seem to be under the impression that every trans athlete is Shaq in a dress.  That sort of person is extremely rare and it seems to me that safety issues for that sort of person in a contact sport can be dealt with narrowly instead of a blanket prohibition for all trans athletes in all sports.

Right my objection is the blanket ban and the argument that it must be okay because we always done it this way.   I'm sure there will need to be some targeted solutions to problems. 

I was forever changed on this topic when I just happened to see that Vice episode three or four years ago.  Now I'm sure that those four or five kids are barely representative of the full spectrum of possibilities, but they were enough (as well as their parents - the mon that lost all of her friend and much of her family)  to tug the hearts to gain that all important understanding of their perspective.  A true perspective even if terribly incomplete.  That empathy that a certain guy around here always mentions.  That doesn't mean I don't have an understanding of the "other side".  In fact I always had that understanding.  That other side isn't hatred of the transgendered, but indifference.  I was guilty of indifference. 

Now my experience is still close to non existent so I won't speak "for them" other than to understand that thanks to that indifference we have failed to show another group of people the respect, the dignity, the acceptance of them on their own terms.  While we aren't cruel and evil people, we have nonetheless been cruel and even evil.  Time to come to grips with this.  I was guilty for 50+ years.  I don't understand a lot of this other than it takes next to nothing on my part to not be cruel and evil any longer.   And first step, absent any legitimate concerns to the contrary is to advocate for opportunity on their terms.

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4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I just looked quick:

Hockey players may not trip, push, charge, interfere with, or physically handle an opponent in any way. Hockey is a non-contact sport and all fouls result in a free hit or a ‘penalty corner’ for the non-offending team depending on where the infringement took place and the severity of the foul.

 

I could for sure understand it happening in HS then.  I would be interested to know what other examples of boys playing team sports like this would be.  

 

I'm not sure where the cutoff is, but there is competitive coed volleyball at younger ages. I'd guess around U13 or 14 they stop coed in club/travel leagues. As they get older, there's safety and competitive concerns. Net height is different for boys and girls.

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37 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Summing up pretty similar to my thoughts.  Part of it is I just don't know enough about all of it hormone wise and everything.  I get wanting to be inclusive...but definitely has to be safe for all involved.  Just as once kids get super big...they move them up and typically won't have boys who are already giant mowing down smaller kids when they get to a certain point.

 

That too

What about 6'5" 220 lbs. girls playing HS basketball?  Is that safe to play against if the opposition is 5'4" and 110 lbs?  Should that be not allowed?

#whatbaboutism

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23 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

What about 6'5" 220 lbs. girls playing HS basketball?  Is that safe to play against if the opposition is 5'4" and 110 lbs?  Should that be not allowed?

#whatbaboutism

I agree with @fatguyinalittlecoat that the safety issue is probably overblown, but its worth noting that we draw all sorts of broad-brush lines in sports leagues (and lots of other areas of life).  For example, we break up soccer into age groups so that you have players at similar levels of physical development competing against one another.  Anybody who's ever watched a U14 or U16 game can attest that that isn't perfect and doesn't totally eliminate the issue of grown men playing against boys, but that doesn't mean its a bad system that should be scrapped.

Obviously it's an open issue as to whether male/female is also a good line to draw.  As a parent, I don't think I would have cared if boys and girls played together in a U8 game where they're mainly just randomly kicking the ball around.  U16 would have been a night and day difference.

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5 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

But isn't this true in high school sports literally all of the time for some participants?  For most schools across the country, winning against Lebron James's high school basketball team wasn't remotely achievable.

I wrestled in high school.  I wasn't terrible, wasn't great.  My sophomore year, I got my butt handed to me by the state champ in my weight class (in approximately 68 seconds) in the state round of 16.  That kid was a really, really talented wrestler, but he was also ridiculously strong for the weight class, in part because his offseason weight was about 20 pounds higher.  I don't know that the rule was put in for this kid specifically, but between my sophomore and junior years, the state created a new competitive balance rule regarding body fat percentage.  Specifically, they measured your body fat percentage at the beginning of the season and calculated if it was below a certain percentage that you were cutting too much weight, and if so, the state added that weight to your actual weight and that was your official weight class for competition purposes.  To be clear, this rule was specifically intended to improve competitive balance and address safety concerns (1. kids wrestling kids that are naturally much heavier but dropping weight, and 2. kids dropping weight in an unsafe manner).  I personally didn't do any of that weight cutting stuff, and was just naturally skinny (don't worry, lots of that wore off in adulthood, so not "look at me"), such that my body fat was way below the state limit.  For me, the result was that while weighing 118 my junior year and about 130 my senior year, I was forced to wrestle at 130 and 145, respectively.  Guess what?  Winning wasn't even remotely achievable due to the rule intended to improve competitive balance.  I didn't even bother going out for the team senior year.  The reality is that virtually all competitive balance rules and safety rules will improve competitive balance in some areas and decrease it in others, as there are always exceptions and unintended consequences.

All that said, it appears that the law is already written and decided by SCOTUS, and Biden's EO simply instructs federal departments to ensure that they comply with the law already in place.  That's hardly "Biden destroyed women's sports".

There's a difference in getting beat by someone else of the same biology.  It's absurd we are talking about biological females at birth having to compete with males at birth in physical contests.  

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4 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I think it's important to put those comments in context.  This is the post we were responding to:

I don't think much of BladeRunner's perspective here, but I agree with you (Shula-holic) that important facets of sports include competing, improving, and striving to win.  But I also think that in the overwhelming majority of instances, those benefits of sports would still be possible for everyone even if trans athletes were allowed to compete in a manner consistent with their gender identity.  But if you don't allow that, you will be depriving many trans people of a genuine opportunity to get the very benefits that you describe.  

I am not trying to minimize your point, and I understand what you are getting at.  My goal or wish isn't for anyone to be deprived of that.  It's just that IMO we are denying girls in this instance of having that benefit.  By allowing someone who identifies as female who was born a male to compete against biological females is going to take that opportunity away from more girls than it will benefit the trans athletes you are trying to make sure have that same opportunity.  My oldest daughter is a decent runner, but there's no way she would be able to compete and win against biological males, especially as she progresses into high school.  The impact isn't 1:1, it would impact all the girls to compete against one trans person in this case.

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1 minute ago, Shula-holic said:

I am not trying to minimize your point, and I understand what you are getting at.  My goal or wish isn't for anyone to be deprived of that.  It's just that IMO we are denying girls in this instance of having that benefit.  By allowing someone who identifies as female who was born a male to compete against biological females is going to take that opportunity away from more girls than it will benefit the trans athletes you are trying to make sure have that same opportunity.  My oldest daughter is a decent runner, but there's no way she would be able to compete and win against biological males, especially as she progresses into high school.  The impact isn't 1:1, it would impact all the girls to compete against one trans person in this case.

I think @fatguyinalittlecoat's point is that the benefits of participating are much greater than "winning".  Cis females would not be prevented from participating and accruing all of the other benefits.

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10 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

There's a difference in getting beat by someone else of the same biology.  It's absurd we are talking about biological females at birth having to compete with males at birth in physical contests.  

Just calling it absurd is assuming the conclusion.  Others have asked why it's absurd.  Your post that I responded to above indicated your reasoning was largely about competitive balance.  Yet we have competitive balance issues at all levels now simply because some players are bigger, faster, stronger, better coached, more talented, etc.  I wanted to play baseball and football in high school but I was too small to play football and too uncoordinated to play baseball.

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4 hours ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

And they are also about dealing with winning and dealing with losing, building self esteem (especially a problem for teen girls and the teen transgender populations), improves fitness and academic standing, creates social bonds including exposure to positive mentors, learn the benefits of being part of the larger community,  similar to what you listed they learn the three "P"s (persistence, patience and practice) along with teamwork and cooperation, gain leadership and time management skills, etc., etc.  These benefits come from the opportunity to participate . 

They are, but read your statement, that reads like an adult would write it.  You may see it that way, I could even see it that way, but you know who wouldn't?  The 14 year old girl who had worked so hard to improve and just lost to a biological male, who may realize I physically can't compete size and strength wise.  I don't think her mental health, self esteem, etc. is going to be helped by that.  When any of us were that age we didn't view things through the prism you described.  We may see those benefits in adulthood but let's not kid ourselves, it is about winning.  As much as I gained from competing in sports as a kid, losing hurts.  There needs to be that carrot of winning out there to strive to improve.  When that chance at reward is realistically removed, it's going to impact those other athletes.

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5 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

I think @fatguyinalittlecoat's point is that the benefits of participating are much greater than "winning".  Cis females would not be prevented from participating and accruing all of the other benefits.

There’s also benefits to winning - both on an emotional level and potentially scholastic.  I’ve avoided these two points but want to highlight that there’s individuals on both sides of the argument who will get impacted.

Lets use a concrete example.  Typically in softball one pitcher will pitch a lot of games as it’s not as stressful on the arm as baseball is.  Imagine your daughter is relegated to 2nd or 3rd string due to an assigned male taking her spot.  Missing out on starting games and potentially a softball scholarship.  Sure, that could happen with a cis female moving in to the area but it’s a plausible scenario that is unfair to the cis female being replaced vs. the other being fair (IMO).

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7 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

Just calling it absurd is assuming the conclusion.  Others have asked why it's absurd.  Your post that I responded to above indicated your reasoning was largely about competitive balance.  Yet we have competitive balance issues at all levels now simply because some players are bigger, faster, stronger, better coached, more talented, etc.  I wanted to play baseball and football in high school but I was too small to play football and too uncoordinated to play baseball.

Of course, there's no exact competitive balance, but it needs to be within reason. 

How I reach my conclusion is that physically, the gap this would create is much greater than what it typically is now.  I played high school ball against guys who played in MLB.  I was fortunate enough many of my teammates were excellent players and we competed against them and even won our share. 

But there's a reason even in high school sports we have classifications by size of school.  Even the best small school team isn't going to be able to physically compete with the state champions of the largest at football for instance.  We do that to have ways for those teams to compete, to have a reason to want to play.  And let's be real, to a 12 year old kid, an early teens kid, if they have no shot to win why are they going to play?  I understand the argument is for the trans athlete to have that as well.  But biologically pairing them against a female isn't going to be a competitive situation in most sports.

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10 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

Your post that I responded to above indicated your reasoning was largely about competitive balance.  Yet we have competitive balance issues at all levels now simply because some players are bigger, faster, stronger, better coached, more talented, etc.  

If an 18 year old man wanted to play on a U14 soccer team, I don't think you would hand-wave away the "competitive balance" issue on these same grounds.  I mean, some U14 soccer players are a lot bigger and faster than others.  It doesn't follow that therefore we should open up age divisions to all comers.

The argument against trans women competing in women's sports, as I see it, hinges on the claim that the competitive mismatch in "male vs. female" is similar in kind to "18 year old vs. 14 year old."  Those two things don't have to be exactly identical quantitatively, just that the relevant population-level differences are large enough to justify broad-brush rules that segregate the two groups into their own leagues.   

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1 minute ago, Shula-holic said:

Of course, there's no exact competitive balance, but it needs to be within reason. 

How I reach my conclusion is that physically, the gap this would create is much greater than what it typically is now.  I played high school ball against guys who played in MLB.  I was fortunate enough many of my teammates were excellent players and we competed against them and even won our share. 

But there's a reason even in high school sports we have classifications by size of school.  Even the best small school team isn't going to be able to physically compete with the state champions of the largest at football for instance.  We do that to have ways for those teams to compete, to have a reason to want to play.  And let's be real, to a 12 year old kid, an early teens kid, if they have no shot to win why are they going to play?  I understand the argument is for the trans athlete to have that as well.  But biologically pairing them against a female isn't going to be a competitive situation in most sports.

But this exists now, everywhere.  There are teams and individuals that go winless, yet they keep playing.  There are kids that never leave the bench, yet they keep playing.

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Just now, Rich Conway said:

But this exists now, everywhere.  There are teams and individuals that go winless, yet they keep playing.  There are kids that never leave the bench, yet they keep playing.

Sure.  I still remember playing on an 0-14 t-ball team.  Losing sucked even as a 6 year old kid.  But the next year we were a lot better.  We had a chance to improve our standing and win.  Had we been competing against 10 year olds, we wouldn't have had that same opportunity.  That's really the point.  Ivan made it pretty well in his last post and we can debate the quantification of what the closest analogy would be, but there's no doubt that there is one. 

My take on it is that it's greater than the difference between even an average high school player and a pro prospect.  My mom was a principal of a small school and I went to a different, larger school.  I can remember going with her as a high school kid to one of their area tournaments for girls basketball.  It was obvious at the time had any of the guys from our high school boys team been on the court, even one, they would have been able to win that tournament by just having that one player.  I'm not talking the best player, just an average one would have sufficed.  The obvious physical gaps were that large.  

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50 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If an 18 year old man wanted to play on a U14 soccer team, I don't think you would hand-wave away the "competitive balance" issue on these same grounds.  I mean, some U14 soccer players are a lot bigger and faster than others.  It doesn't follow that therefore we should open up age divisions to all comers.

The argument against trans women competing in women's sports, as I see it, hinges on the claim that the competitive mismatch in "male vs. female" is similar in kind to "18 year old vs. 14 year old."  Those two things don't have to be exactly identical quantitatively, just that the relevant population-level differences are large enough to justify broad-brush rules that segregate the two groups into their own leagues.   

I'm honestly not 100% sure how I feel about the issue and I'm not hand-waving away anything.

However, I think there's a significant difference between your 18 to U14 example and a transgender situation.  For one, the 18-year old can play in an existing U18 league.  The transgender individual may not have a league at all or may not have one in which they can participate without causing psychological trauma.

To be clear, I'm not saying competitive balance isn't important.  However, it's certainly not the most important thing in high school sports (or college sports), and it's not as if "were it not for transgender participants, competitive balance is solved", as evidenced by our existing acceptance of competitive imbalance that exists today.

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20 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

However, I think there's a significant difference between your 18 to U14 example and a transgender situation.  For one, the 18-year old can play in an existing U18 league.  The transgender individual may not have a league at all or may not have one in which they can participate without causing psychological trauma.

 

I don't understand this point.  They're biologically male.  Why couldn't they compete in the league with other biological males?

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10 minutes ago, John123 said:

I don't understand this point.  They're biologically male.  Why couldn't they compete in the league with other biological males?

You may call them "biologically male" but in every respect that person is living as a female.  My kid that is transitioning right now is a senior in high school.  Even though he was assigned female at birth, he now is named "Peter" and his dress and appearance is entirely masculine.  When he goes to college next year, he has no intention of telling everyone he meets that he's trans.  He's just going to live as a man.  Yes, he'll need to tell medical providers and romantic partners and maybe even close friends but that would be his choice.  That's his hope -- just to be another dude on campus, not to be the 'trans kid."

But if he played interscholastic sports and was forced to compete as a female, that would be impossible. 

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11 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Yes, he'll need to tell medical providers

why ?

because of dna / genetics / biology, right ?

 

the arguments are that a male body is physically better for sports, - and not 100% of the time but overall ......... a person cannot escape that biological assignment is the argument I think isn't it ? thus creating unfair advantages 

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

You may call them "biologically male" but in every respect that person is living as a female.  My kid that is transitioning right now is a senior in high school.  Even though he was assigned female at birth, he now is named "Peter" and his dress and appearance is entirely masculine.  When he goes to college next year, he has no intention of telling everyone he meets that he's trans.  He's just going to live as a man.  Yes, he'll need to tell medical providers and romantic partners and maybe even close friends but that would be his choice.  That's his hope -- just to be another dude on campus, not to be the 'trans kid."

But if he played interscholastic sports and was forced to compete as a female, that would be impossible. 

I posted a study that shows that years after transitioning, and even if taking drugs to limit testosterone, a biologically male person will have physical advantages over a biologically female person.  That's my issue with this.  If your son wants to compete on male sports teams I have no issue with that.  The title of this thread is "Biden vs Girls Sports". I'm addressing that topic.

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1 minute ago, John123 said:

I posted a study that shows that years after transitioning, and even if taking drugs to limit testosterone, a biologically male person will have physical advantages over a biologically female person.  That's my issue with this.  If your son wants to compete on male sports teams I have no issue with that.  The title of this thread is "Biden vs Girls Sports". I'm addressing that topic.

Right I understand that I was just trying to answer your question about why it’s a big deal for a trans female to just play in a league for men.  The idea is the same as my example, just with a trans female instead of a trans male like my son.

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3 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Right I understand that I was just trying to answer your question about why it’s a big deal for a trans female to just play in a league for men.  The idea is the same as my example, just with a trans female instead of a trans male like my son.

I don't see what's the same.  Your son won't have physical advantages over the people he would be competing against.  That's what this comes down to.   Title IX was passed to equalize the playing field between men and women.  It won't happen overnight but this movement to allow biological men to play women's sports has the potential to destroy almost 50 years of gains that have been made in sports regarding women's rights. 

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Just now, John123 said:
9 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Right I understand that I was just trying to answer your question about why it’s a big deal for a trans female to just play in a league for men.  The idea is the same as my example, just with a trans female instead of a trans male like my son.

I don't see what's the same. 

The part that’s the same is the negative mental health and social impact on the trans person of playing a sport with people of a gender he or she doesn’t identify with.  
 

I agree that the competitive balance issues are different for trans men and trans women.  I was just responding to this question that you posed, which I took as a good faith attempt to understand the issue better:

1 hour ago, John123 said:

 Why couldn't they compete in the league with other biological males?

 

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2 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

But this exists now, everywhere.  There are teams and individuals that go winless, yet they keep playing.  There are kids that never leave the bench, yet they keep playing.

So lets let the trans females practice and be on the team. They just have to sit on the bench during competition. 

Problem solved. 

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What if Usain Bolt was trans?  He would destroy every women's track and field record and they would never be broken unless another trans athlete came along.  How is that fair to all of the other female athletes?

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6 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

What if Usain Bolt was trans?  He would destroy every women's track and field record and they would never be broken unless another trans athlete came along.  How is that fair to all of the other female athletes?

:shrug:  Somebody’s gotta have the record.  I’m not persuaded if your argument is that all trans athletes should be prevented from playing sports because otherwise there will be some women athletes that miss out on world records.

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10 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

What if Usain Bolt was trans?  He would destroy every women's track and field record and they would never be broken unless another trans athlete came along.  How is that fair to all of the other female athletes?

He destroyed the men's records too. Might need to create another category for him.

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If an 18 year old man wanted to play on a U14 soccer team, I don't think you would hand-wave away the "competitive balance" issue on these same grounds.  I mean, some U14 soccer players are a lot bigger and faster than others.  It doesn't follow that therefore we should open up age divisions to all comers.

With "redshirting kindergarteners" and "reclassified" middle and high schoolers don't we already allow eighteen and nineteen year old HS seniors play on the same field as fourteen year old HS freshmen?    I believe that age rules beyond this exist in most places (around here you need to turn 19 after 9/1) so there are limitations.  I also get that freshmen might have JV opportunities.   

I don't want to get bogged down on this too much because I am not opposed to restrictions around safety and around actually limiting opportunities for others, but I still think we are exaggerating the threat of this.  Even if with the absurd idea that every single transgendered girl took a a high school athletic spot there are still 95% of the other spots still open (1 - 160000/3500000).   ETA:  And still nearly a million spots before parity with boys teams.

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6 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

With "redshirting kindergarteners" and "reclassified" middle and high schoolers don't we already allow eighteen and nineteen year old HS seniors play on the same field as fourteen year old HS freshmen?   

 

4 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Anybody who's ever watched a U14 or U16 game can attest that that isn't perfect and doesn't totally eliminate the issue of grown men playing against boys, but that doesn't mean its a bad system that should be scrapped.

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I do appreciate that this thread is nearly 100% cordial and respectful. If this thread popped up 10 years ago, I can't imagine the level of discourse would be anywhere near this.

It is such a complicated issue, and the back and forth does illustrate that

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1 hour ago, dawgtrails said:

I do appreciate that this thread is nearly 100% cordial and respectful. If this thread popped up 10 years ago, I can't imagine the level of discourse would be anywhere near this.

It is such a complicated issue, and the back and forth does illustrate that

This reminds me of 10 years ago around here.  I think the problem with this issue is that it is complicated and an ultimately a  balancing act between legitimate competing issues but most everyone wants simple.  I want simple, but simple isn't going to be the answer.  And at time one will be posting two positions that a some levels contradict yet both are real and true representative of that position.  And sometime strong opinions will result in strong reactions.  That is what was the best of politics in the FFA.   There were always terrible threads and terrible posters (and I guess most of us were one at one time or another) but there was also intelligent, informed, honest people with different opinions willing to express them. 

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2 hours ago, dawgtrails said:

I do appreciate that this thread is nearly 100% cordial and respectful. If this thread popped up 10 years ago, I can't imagine the level of discourse would be anywhere near this.

It is such a complicated issue, and the back and forth does illustrate that

Agree with all of this.  It is complicated and in an ideal world we could find a solution that everyone would agree is fair/equitable and safe for all parties involved.  I’m not sure that’s possible here.  King Solomon would being saying let’s cut the baby in half.

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6 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

You may call them "biologically male" but in every respect that person is living as a female.  My kid that is transitioning right now is a senior in high school.  Even though he was assigned female at birth, he now is named "Peter" and his dress and appearance is entirely masculine.  When he goes to college next year, he has no intention of telling everyone he meets that he's trans.  He's just going to live as a man.  Yes, he'll need to tell medical providers and romantic partners and maybe even close friends but that would be his choice.  That's his hope -- just to be another dude on campus, not to be the 'trans kid."

But if he played interscholastic sports and was forced to compete as a female, that would be impossible. 

Thank you for your posts on this topic and your honesty about your family.  

I will be honest - the bolded is not something I had stopped to think about.   Does Peter do any extra-curriculars where this will become an issue?

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

Thank you for your posts on this topic and your honesty about your family.  

I will be honest - the bolded is not something I had stopped to think about.   Does Peter do any extra-curriculars where this will become an issue?

I don’t think so but I guess I don’t know what he might be interested in doing in the future.  But he’s like a science and engineering nerd type.  I could see it being a much bigger deal if he was into sports or maybe drama or singing or something.

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8 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

You may call them "biologically male" but in every respect that person is living as a female.  My kid that is transitioning right now is a senior in high school.  Even though he was assigned female at birth, he now is named "Peter" and his dress and appearance is entirely masculine.  When he goes to college next year, he has no intention of telling everyone he meets that he's trans.  He's just going to live as a man.  Yes, he'll need to tell medical providers and romantic partners and maybe even close friends but that would be his choice.  That's his hope -- just to be another dude on campus, not to be the 'trans kid."

But if he played interscholastic sports and was forced to compete as a female, that would be impossible. 

One of my best friends is going through the exact same thing with his kid, also a senior.  He & his wife are handling things just as you seems to be doing.  It brings joy to my heart the way both of you for how you're handling things.  Of course you're a well known lefty commie bastard so not really a surprise. 

My friend is, at least was, very conservative.  Of course you don't get to be one my "best" (like I'm still in elementary school or something) friend without being someone that I know is good person through and through.

Again, it makes me happy to see the love on display.  Really has nothing to with the actual subject at hand.

@Rich Conway My youngest son is in a 14U league and is taller than just about every kid by a foot.  Taller or as tall as almost every coach in the league.  I always get looks from the opposing team's parents and you can tell they think he's a lot older but thankfully he's still got a baby face so there might be some doubt.  Anyway, it hurts every time.  Just like being called a greasy thug.

Sorry to go off topic.

 

(through & through? Thru & thru?  Threw & threw? I think I got it right the first time.

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6 hours ago, dawgtrails said:

I do appreciate that this thread is nearly 100% cordial and respectful. If this thread popped up 10 years ago, I can't imagine the level of discourse would be anywhere near this.

It is such a complicated issue, and the back and forth does illustrate that

It is nice to be able to discuss without the whole thing going into the crapper.....and I will admit, I'm learning some things.....at the end of the day, I'm a parent, and Ive had prolly at least a dozen moments where I think to myself......my single, non-parent self would never believe this is happening!  I cannot imagine the conversations that would happen between a child and parent with this kind of thing.  Much respect for parents can handle it with grace.

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22 hours ago, dgreen said:

I'm not sure where the cutoff is, but there is competitive coed volleyball at younger ages. I'd guess around U13 or 14 they stop coed in club/travel leagues. As they get older, there's safety and competitive concerns. Net height is different for boys and girls.

I recall that the cutoff for coed volleyball is U12 in the Ohio Valley Region.  I don’t know if that has changed or not, the number of boys clubs is growing.

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23 hours ago, supermike80 said:

If a male to female transgendered person is allowed to use the women's bathrooms he/she should be allowed to play women's sports.

I'm perfectly fine with this.

Gotta follow the science here.

What science?  It is a societal rule that has nothing to do with science.

And all science can tell us about the trans people is that there are some hormonal conditions and some psychological conditions, but there is no definitive definition of what makes a person transgender or transsexual.

It is about as unscientific as any issue in our society could be.

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And a quick note that I'm not sure has been covered within this discussion or not; no one is saying that trans people may not participate in sports, they just have to compete in the league that pertains to their biological sex.  They can still have all of the same opportunities and I'd be even for allowing them separate locker rooms to accommodate their gender.

Why force girls to compete against biological boys when they have a league they can compete in?  It isn't like the scrutiny and difficulty will be any better/worse by letting them compete based on gender as opposed to biological sex.  So why this huge push to allow for this?

This makes it seem like the intent isn't about "equality" or "opportunity" but a bit of vengeful spite to disrupt the status quo in an effort to be heard.  Yes the trans community has been abused throughout history and deserves protection, but what is all of this really about?  In honesty, it really seems counter-productive to try and push through trans athletes competing in their gender instead of biological sex and for every comment of "it isn't a big deal" and "the girls still get the same life lessons anyway" the same argument can be made toward them.

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13 hours ago, GROOT said:

"self-identify"

ok, i identify as a woman. Now what are you going to do?

Exactly.

Whether it be sports, bathrooms or anything else you should be required to follow the sex that is on all your government issued records.

There should also be a process where if you want it changed, get with your doctor and go in front of a judge to have it changed.

Problem solved.

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

Exactly.

Whether it be sports, bathrooms or anything else you should be required to follow the sex that is on all your government issued records.

I'm in favor of segregating sports by sex but segregating bathrooms by gender (if we're going to segregate them at all, which I see as very much an open question).  I don't want to dig into it too much because this thread doesn't need to be derailed, but the same kind of "let's go back to first principles" analysis tells me that it's going to make everybody a lot more comfortable and generally reduce social friction if people who look like dudes use the men's room and people who look like ladies use the women's room.  If you're sitting there wondering about biological sex of the person in the next stall, that one's on you.

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I'm in favor of segregating sports by sex but segregating bathrooms by gender (if we're going to segregate them at all, which I see as very much an open question).  I don't want to dig into it too much because this thread doesn't need to be derailed, but the same kind of "let's go back to first principles" analysis tells me that it's going to make everybody a lot more comfortable and generally reduce social friction if people who look like dudes use the men's room and people who look like ladies use the women's room.  If you're sitting there wondering about biological sex of the person in the next stall, that one's on you.

Sure.  I'm not saying we need to scan IDs prior to entry at every public bathroom, just follow the law when problems arise.  Sports would be more appropriate to regularly check things like age and sex, and become more rigorous about it as the competitiveness increases.

Speaking of age, is there a parallel here?  We have rules about age (driving, drinking, smoking, military) yet maturity and intelligence can vary widely, much as sexual orientation does.  For every 16 year old that thinks, or self identifies as an adult and wants to have an adult beverage, generally as a society we don't have any problem enforcing age laws.

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50 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

And a quick note that I'm not sure has been covered within this discussion or not; no one is saying that trans people may not participate in sports, they just have to compete in the league that pertains to their biological sex.  They can still have all of the same opportunities and I'd be even for allowing them separate locker rooms to accommodate their gender.

Why force girls to compete against biological boys when they have a league they can compete in?  It isn't like the scrutiny and difficulty will be any better/worse by letting them compete based on gender as opposed to biological sex.  So why this huge push to allow for this?

This makes it seem like the intent isn't about "equality" or "opportunity" but a bit of vengeful spite to disrupt the status quo in an effort to be heard.  Yes the trans community has been abused throughout history and deserves protection, but what is all of this really about?  In honesty, it really seems counter-productive to try and push through trans athletes competing in their gender instead of biological sex and for every comment of "it isn't a big deal" and "the girls still get the same life lessons anyway" the same argument can be made toward them.

Give them their own sports league.

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