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Why is the GOP and Joe Biden against cancelling student debt?


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A school teacher in Texas makes less than 40K a year, yet we saddle them with debt by going for a master's degree. Even more concerning, Not every grad school institution offers their students help to pay for it. I don't understand the logic of not helping those in need to lift them out of poverty.  I know plenty of librarians in Boston who make 60K a year, just barely making enough to afford rent, utilities, and food.  

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"We" don't saddle anybody with debt -- the student decides on their own whether they want to go to graduate school, and they also decide whether to borrow to finance their degree, whether to pay for i

It's their choice to saddle themselves with dept. Nobody forced them to do it. 

This is a pretty good analogy, but it misses the point of student loan forgiveness.  Young-ish college graduates are becoming an increasingly important part of the Democratic party's coalition, and pa

12 minutes ago, wazoo11 said:

A school teacher in Texas makes less than 40K a year, yet we saddle them with debt by going for a master's degree. Even more concerning, Not every grad school institution offers their students help to pay for it. I don't understand the logic of not helping those in need to lift them out of poverty.  I know plenty of librarians in Boston who make 60K a year, just barely making enough to afford rent, utilities, and food.  

Typically dont teachers get a set raise for an advanced degree? Maybe we expect they will do the math and determine if it will cost them too much to do so. 

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12 minutes ago, wazoo11 said:

A school teacher in Texas makes less than 40K a year, yet we saddle them with debt by going for a master's degree. Even more concerning, Not every grad school institution offers their students help to pay for it. I don't understand the logic of not helping those in need to lift them out of poverty.  I know plenty of librarians in Boston who make 60K a year, just barely making enough to afford rent, utilities, and food.  

It's their choice to saddle themselves with dept. Nobody forced them to do it. 

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28 minutes ago, wazoo11 said:

A school teacher in Texas makes less than 40K a year, yet we saddle them with debt by going for a master's degree. 

"We" don't saddle anybody with debt -- the student decides on their own whether they want to go to graduate school, and they also decide whether to borrow to finance their degree, whether to pay for it in cash, or some combination of the two.

People who want to cancel student debt need to explain why people who chose to borrow should retroactively get their purchase for free, while people who chose to pay up front should get nothing.

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4 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

"We" don't saddle anybody with debt -- the student decides on their own whether they want to go to graduate school, and they also decide whether to borrow to finance their degree, whether to pay for it in cash, or some combination of the two.

People who want to cancel student debt need to explain why people who chose to borrow should retroactively get their purchase for free, while people who chose to pay up front should get nothing.

i'm not necessarily in favor of cancelling student debt, but in general if I have the options of 1) helping person A but not B, and 2) not helping either person A or B, the fact that I can't help both might not prevent me from choosing 1)

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

"We" don't saddle anybody with debt -- the student decides on their own whether they want to go to graduate school, and they also decide whether to borrow to finance their degree, whether to pay for it in cash, or some combination of the two.

People who want to cancel student debt need to explain why people who chose to borrow should retroactively get their purchase for free, while people who chose to pay up front should get nothing.

Or those who borrowed and then paid back in the past get nothing but what we agreed to...just as the current crop that owe should get nothing but what they agreed to when they borrowed the money. 

Ideas like this is why I could never be a Democrat.  Big FU to Trump and the current GOP for making me vote for the current Pres because he (Trump) and R leadership were just so awful. 

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1 minute ago, joffer said:

i'm not necessarily in favor of cancelling student debt, but in general if I have the options of 1) helping person A but not B, and 2) not helping either person A or B, the fact that I can't help both might not prevent me from choosing 1)

I'm also more willing to help A and not B if A is doing some kind of civil service or direct benefit/need to society.  

 

For my buddy B that has a masters in glass blowing, you make some cool looking bongs bro, but you chose that path and the fact it took you 15 f'n years too get that degree is even more ridiculous!  

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10 minutes ago, joffer said:

i'm not necessarily in favor of cancelling student debt, but in general if I have the options of 1) helping person A but not B, and 2) not helping either person A or B, the fact that I can't help both might not prevent me from choosing 1)

Except in this case, neither A nor B are likely well off.  I have two daughters, if one is financially more responsible than the other I'm much more likely to help the one who is more responsible, in this case that would be B.  I would estimate me doing so and rewarding good behavior might be a good carrot for helping make solid financial decisions,  At the very least I would choose to do something lesser for both than to reward bad behavior and decision making by giving all the benefits I could afford to the one who made poor decisions.  Maybe in this case it's some kind of educator tax break versus a blanket forgiveness of someone less responsible.

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1 minute ago, Shula-holic said:

Except in this case, neither A nor B are likely well off.  I have two daughters, if one is financially more responsible than the other I'm much more likely to help the one who is more responsible, in this case that would be B.  I would estimate me doing so and rewarding good behavior might be a good carrot for helping make solid financial decisions,  At the very least I would choose to do something lesser for both than to reward bad behavior and decision making.  Maybe in this case it's some kind of educator tax break versus a blanket forgiveness of someone less responsible.

taking on debt isn't necessarily bad behavior.  but i agree a blanket cancellation isn't good policy either.

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13 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:
44 minutes ago, wazoo11 said:

A school teacher in Texas makes less than 40K a year, yet we saddle them with debt by going for a master's degree. 

"We" don't saddle anybody with debt -- the student decides on their own whether they want to go to graduate school, and they also decide whether to borrow to finance their degree, whether to pay for it in cash, or some combination of the two.

People who want to cancel student debt need to explain why people who chose to borrow should retroactively get their purchase for free, while people who chose to pay up front should get nothing.

:goodposting:

I'd also like to hear an explanation of why ex-students who spend their discretionary funds on luxury items should be put into the same category as ex-students who spend their discretionary funds towards paying down their student debt.

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1 minute ago, joffer said:

taking on debt isn't necessarily bad behavior.  but i agree a blanket cancellation isn't good policy either.

Agreed that debt is not always a bad thing, sometimes it is necessary, such as purchasing a home or some student loans.  My issue is more with those who take out such large loans that the degree they are getting can't possibly lead to enough income to service that debt.  If we just forgive that, IMO there is no incentive to stop the behavior from others down the line and we haven't truly solved a problem.

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6 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

:goodposting:

I'd also like to hear an explanation of why ex-students who spend their discretionary funds on luxury items should be put into the same category as ex-students who spend their discretionary funds towards paying down their student debt.

does that mean if there was some way to distinguish between these cases in terms of policy implementation, you'd be in favor of debt forgiveness for the latter?

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44 minutes ago, steeler6 said:

It's their choice to saddle themselves with dept. Nobody forced them to do it. 

See.....the same folks who say this are the ones who then say it's poor peoples fault that they are poor because they haven't trained up or learned a better task for a better job.

 

There's a terrible disconnect that I just don't get. 

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30 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

"We" don't saddle anybody with debt -- the student decides on their own whether they want to go to graduate school, and they also decide whether to borrow to finance their degree, whether to pay for it in cash, or some combination of the two.

People who want to cancel student debt need to explain why people who chose to borrow should retroactively get their purchase for free, while people who chose to pay up front should get nothing.

Can I get a kickback for going to a cheap state school?

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1 minute ago, renesauz said:

See.....the same folks who say this are the ones who then say it's poor peoples fault that they are poor because they haven't trained up or learned a better task for a better job.

 

There's a terrible disconnect that I just don't get. 

I don't think that's true.  It's a good decision if the debt taken on leads to a career that can service that debt and lead that person to a better quality of life.  If someone chooses to go to an expensive school to get a degree that simply isn't going to provide them with enough income to service that debt, that has more to do with them being poor than any preexisting situation.  Getting a different kind of degree or choosing another school remedies that issue.

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35 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

"We" don't saddle anybody with debt -- the student decides on their own whether they want to go to graduate school, and they also decide whether to borrow to finance their degree, whether to pay for it in cash, or some combination of the two.

People who want to cancel student debt need to explain why people who chose to borrow should retroactively get their purchase for free, while people who chose to pay up front should get nothing.

100% this.

If you want to start a program that makes 2-year college fees tax deductible or partially funded I am on board with this.   Cancelling existing student debt is not fair to the many people that did pay off their loans.

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33 minutes ago, joffer said:

i'm not necessarily in favor of cancelling student debt, but in general if I have the options of 1) helping person A but not B, and 2) not helping either person A or B, the fact that I can't help both might not prevent me from choosing 1)

We're spending trillions due to Coronavirus.  And we have other priorities.  People keep talking about our infrastructure crumbling.  Health care is still a concern. I'm sure there are other things we might consider spending money on before handouts to college grads.  As my grandma used to say, money doesn't grow on trees.

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8 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

I don't think that's true.  It's a good decision if the debt taken on leads to a career that can service that debt and lead that person to a better quality of life.  If someone chooses to go to an expensive school to get a degree that simply isn't going to provide them with enough income to service that debt, that has more to do with them being poor than any preexisting situation.  Getting a different kind of degree or choosing another school remedies that issue.

I don't disagree with your premise in general, but in the logic leading you to this, yet fighting against minimum wage increase. Education costs have skyrocketed over the last 30 years.....risen FAR FAR faster then income. We have to recognize this and take steps to fix it. PART of that fix could include some cancellation of debt.

(TBH I'm not 100% sold that this is the right thing to do....but I'm frustrated by the contradictions inherent in some of these positions)

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36 minutes ago, beef said:

I'm also more willing to help A and not B if A is doing some kind of civil service or direct benefit/need to society.  

 

For my buddy B that has a masters in glass blowing, you make some cool looking bongs bro, but you chose that path and the fact it took you 15 f'n years too get that degree is even more ridiculous!  

In the teacher example, both the teacher that borrowed a ton and is now getting it free and the teacher that paid up front are providing the same service to society

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I lean mostly left, and don't agree with either of those things. 

Not totally against raising the minimum wage, but that should be a local decision. 

Not totally against some debt cancellation, but I'd prefer actually trying to fix the problem and prevent this from happening in the future.

Dems need to be real careful about driving out moderates now that they don't have Trump to run against.

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Debt cancellation won’t solve the problem of college being stupidly expensive for a degree that won’t always help the student in the future. There should be a focus on cheaper alternatives like trade schools and such, so students can find careers that don’t start them in a massive financial hole.

Minimum wage should also be a more local decision, but it has to be brought up to a level where a person working on it can actually survive.

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1 hour ago, renesauz said:

I don't disagree with your premise in general, but in the logic leading you to this, yet fighting against minimum wage increase. Education costs have skyrocketed over the last 30 years.....risen FAR FAR faster then income. We have to recognize this and take steps to fix it. PART of that fix could include some cancellation of debt.

(TBH I'm not 100% sold that this is the right thing to do....but I'm frustrated by the contradictions inherent in some of these positions)

I agree we should look at education costs, I know I was surprised at how much college costs had shifted from my time in college.  I just see debt forgiveness as picking winners and losers because we are rewarding those who took on more debt than they could afford and not rewarding those who made the right decision or budgeted differently and got by with less.  

I think minimum wage is a totally separate issue.  I think it starts with recognizing the minimum wage in Pasadena CA should be different than that in McComb MS.  Some of the data produced by the CBO just speaks to the issues we all should know would come from it.  You will help some and hurt others.  Maybe the case is valid that you help enough people out of poverty that throwing others to unemployment is worth it, but there have been discussions on these boards before that raising minimum wage wouldn't necessarily raise unemployment.  I think the report that came out shows that basic economics are still valid and there is a demand reaction to increasing the minimum price of labor.  I think it's a valid discussion though if we are better off or not if we raise it, I don't know the answer.  I certainly believe it should be indexed at the least.  But I just think that conversation should take place with realistic economic outcomes considered.

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1 hour ago, Kal El said:

Debt cancellation won’t solve the problem of college being stupidly expensive for a degree that won’t always help the student in the future. There should be a focus on cheaper alternatives like trade schools and such, so students can find careers that don’t start them in a massive financial hole.

Minimum wage should also be a more local decision, but it has to be brought up to a level where a person working on it can actually survive.

Couldn't agree more, not everyone needs to go the four year college route and it shouldn't be viewed as being some lesser status for those who don't.  

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1 hour ago, renesauz said:

See.....the same folks who say this are the ones who then say it's poor peoples fault that they are poor because they haven't trained up or learned a better task for a better job.

 

There's a terrible disconnect that I just don't get. 

I've never said this nor do I believe it. And I don't even see how the 2 are related. 

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1 hour ago, Kal El said:

Minimum wage should also be a more local decision, but it has to be brought up to a level where a person working on it can actually survive.

Agree, like the Federal pay scale (GS, WG etc.) has locality pay differences.  $15 in NYC or Seattle won't go as far as $15 in Iron Mountain, MI.  

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This doesn’t directly effect me so haven’t looked too closely at the arguments for both sides but initial thoughts are the cost of education needs to be looked at much closer than wiping out what had already been borrowed.

Would be much more in favor of creative ways that they can work that debt down - volunteer for 6 months of community service get money knocked off or something along these lines.

Wiping it completely or wiping some random number away, if that’s what these proposals do, does seem problematic.

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3 hours ago, renesauz said:

See.....the same folks who say this are the ones who then say it's poor peoples fault that they are poor because they haven't trained up or learned a better task for a better job.

 

There's a terrible disconnect that I just don't get. 

I don't get why we can't force colleges to knock 60 off what's owed..   I just dont get the disconnect.   Get the money from the people who got the money.

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1 hour ago, Da Guru said:

Take over the interest debt on student loans and let them pay off the loans without interest would be a good idea. 

I don't agree with forgiving principal, but could be convinced to have the federal government pay the interest. Heck, the foundations are already there with setting interest on federal loans to zero during the pandemic. 

Somewhat related, I think we should update bankruptcy laws to make it even just a little easier to discharge or reduce student loan debt. 

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3 hours ago, joffer said:
3 hours ago, Sea Duck said:

:goodposting:

I'd also like to hear an explanation of why ex-students who spend their discretionary funds on luxury items should be put into the same category as ex-students who spend their discretionary funds towards paying down their student debt.

does that mean if there was some way to distinguish between these cases in terms of policy implementation, you'd be in favor of debt forgiveness for the latter?

I oppose debt forgiveness on principle.

I am willing to entertain a limited form of debt mitigation if it's in exchange for some kind of service provided, but only if it prioritizes people who were already making a concerted effort to pay back their loans.

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4 hours ago, wazoo11 said:

A school teacher in Texas makes less than 40K a year, yet we saddle them with debt by going for a master's degree. Even more concerning, Not every grad school institution offers their students help to pay for it. I don't understand the logic of not helping those in need to lift them out of poverty.  I know plenty of librarians in Boston who make 60K a year, just barely making enough to afford rent, utilities, and food.  

If you want to make more money go do a different job and don't take the loan

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3 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

This is all fine, until you realize there would be a severe shortage of teachers

Good, the lack of labor supply would help drive salaries up and folks could stop complaining.

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5 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

This is all fine, until you realize there would be a severe shortage of teachers

Given the low pay now I'm not sure why it would get worse.  My wife is a teacher, and like with any other profession she has coworkers who make solid financial decisions and others who are trainwrecks financially.  But they all knew the salary range coming into it. 

On the bright side, being a teacher did get her pushed into the second group for the vaccine in our state and she got that today.

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3 hours ago, Murph said:

Student debt cancellation is the Democrats version of the Trump tax cuts. Neither is based on sound economic policy. Both are giveaways to important voting blocs.

This is a good point, yet I'd say canceling student debt has a lot lower direct cost.

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4 hours ago, wazoo11 said:

A school teacher in Texas makes less than 40K a year, yet we saddle them with debt by going for a master's degree. Even more concerning, Not every grad school institution offers their students help to pay for it. I don't understand the logic of not helping those in need to lift them out of poverty.  I know plenty of librarians in Boston who make 60K a year, just barely making enough to afford rent, utilities, and food.  

Give teachers a raise, canceling student debt is one of the worst most irresponsible decisions I’ve heard of....even from the Dems. If they are so worried about this all of the sudden then set an amount and write a check for every US citizen. You don’t reward those that don’t pay back debt and ignore those that responsibly paid their loans holding up their end of the agreement they made. 

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1 hour ago, Da Guru said:

Take over the interest debt on student loans and let them pay off the loans without interest would be a good idea. 

This is about the most I could stomach, makes sense. 

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Regarding minimum wage I had to Google what it is current...$7.25/hr Federal. That’s low and something that would be easy to get support on....unless you are dumb enough to push for more than doubling it which is ridiculous. 

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Just now, GoBirds said:

Regarding minimum wage I had to Google what it is current...$7.25/hr Federal. That’s low and something that would be easy to get support on....unless you are dumb enough to push for more than doubling it which is ridiculous. 

 

Why?

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3 hours ago, renesauz said:

Education costs have skyrocketed over the last 30 years.....risen FAR FAR faster then income. We have to recognize this and take steps to fix it. PART of that fix could include some cancellation of debt.

I would think a cancellation of debt policy would drive up education costs. It’s just that now you would have taxpayers (including whole bunch of hardworking people without college degrees) footing the bill for college grads. 

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1 hour ago, beef said:

Agree, like the Federal pay scale (GS, WG etc.) has locality pay differences.  $15 in NYC or Seattle won't go as far as $15 in Iron Mountain, MI.  

Great post, doesn’t it amaze you that those that run our country don’t use this common sense? Pretty scary these are our “leaders”. 

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28 minutes ago, djmich said:

Good, the lack of labor supply would help drive salaries up and folks could stop complaining.

no school today!

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3 minutes ago, GoBirds said:

Great post, doesn’t it amaze you that those that run our country don’t use this common sense? Pretty scary these are our “leaders”. 

I’m willing to be convinced otherwise, but I really think that minimum wage should be set by states and municipalities and not at the federal level.

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31 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

Given the low pay now I'm not sure why it would get worse.  My wife is a teacher, and like with any other profession she has coworkers who make solid financial decisions and others who are trainwrecks financially.  But they all knew the salary range coming into it. 

On the bright side, being a teacher did get her pushed into the second group for the vaccine in our state and she got that today.

Really? If we told/encouraged everyone to not take a loan to become a teacher and instead take a loan to become a CPA instead, you don't think that would have an effect of supply?

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3 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I’m willing to be convinced otherwise, but I really think that minimum wage should be set by states and municipalities and not at the federal level.

This sort of happens now. The federal minimum wage of 7.25 is only the law in 12 states I think. The other 38 have passed state minimum wage rates that exceed that number. I sort of agree though, in that I think the fed should set a really low bar (kind of what 7.25 was 12 years ago) and let the states set theirs accordingly. 

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3 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

Really? If we told/encouraged everyone to not take a loan to become a teacher and instead take a loan to become a CPA instead, you don't think that would have an effect of supply?

Except that’s not how things work.

“We” don’t tell people what loans to take for what jobs.  They decide.  And apparently the ####ty pay isn’t stopping them from becoming teachers.

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