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“Cancel Culture” and “Woke”


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1 hour ago, supermike80 said:

Sometimes your semantics gets really annoying.  Wait, no, it's always annoying.

Thanks for yet another comment about me without addressing what I actually posted.  It was very helpful.

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That was way too long a post.  Gordon Gekko is looking at that and wondering why I couldn't tighten it up a little.

I make sure to tell Tim that he's wrong about something at least weekly.  It's my good deed of the day.

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies." Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a

8 minutes ago, whoknew said:

I don't think the bold is correct. Art reflects the time in which it was made. Surely we are sophisticated enough to understand that.

Do you think Huck Finn should be removed or changed?

agreed...the problem with "if they offend people" really means "if they offend certain vocal people" And often "people" is a very small percentage of the population, but we've emboldened them with a very large sword and companies, municipalities and schools have become very afraid of them. 

 

And while we are talking about these 6 books, there are other groups who want his material not taught in school at all...full cancel. 

this is where we are creating moral standards that just cannot be sustained or reached.  

 

 

Edited by glvsav37
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But Loudoun County Public Schools (LCPS), located in Ashburn, said it is not banning books by the famous children's author -- it's just discouraging a connection between "Read Across America Day," which was created to get kids excited about reading, and Dr. Seuss' birthday. Both fall on March 2, and have often been "historically connected" to each other, the district said in a statement.

This a a pretty thin backpedal. 

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FFS, can anyone on "the right" just state "Hey, some of this stuff from ages ago is legitimately offensive." and let it go at that?

Sometimes things are offensive.  That is not the same as "silencing free speech" or "coming to get you".

Edited by Rich Conway
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14 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

FFS, can anyone on "the right" just state "Hey, some of this stuff from ages ago is legitimately offensive." and let it go at that?

Sometimes things are offensive.  That is not the same as "silencing free speech" or "coming to get you".

I haven't re-read the thread but are people defending stuff that is legitimately offensive?

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29 minutes ago, glvsav37 said:

this is where we are creating moral standards that just cannot be sustained or reached.  

Or, in some cases, we're creating moral standards that are based on ignorance.  For 99% of lifetime, nearly all calls for various flavors of censorship were really just people bouncing ignorance and anti-intellectualism off one another.  I'm thinking here of calls for banning Huck Finn (mentioned on the previous page), To Kill a Mockingbird, Harry Potter, Judy Bloom, and so on.  Those folks shouldn't really be accommodated -- derisive mockery is a better response.

At least in this case, we're talking about material that's legitimately kind of offensive even if we recognize that it's a product of its time.

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51 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Adam Server: "The Muppets, Dr Seuss, Mr Potatohead. Republicans are laser focused on the issues that matter to working class voters under ten."

The weird thing about this is that when I was younger, it was self-identified liberals who were fairly vocal about wanting kids to have access to Judy Bloom books, and I agreed with them.  Is it the biggest issue facing our society?  Of course not.  But it really is kind of frustrating to realize exactly how few people support free expression as a matter of general principle.

Also, as others have noted, it's not Republicans who are initiating any of these changes.  It would be as if the Fundies started making fun of Democrats for being laser-focused on Judy Bloom.

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3 minutes ago, djmich said:

I haven't re-read the thread but are people defending stuff that is legitimately offensive?

No, but that's not how it works.

The point of the culture war is to ignore the actual story (Seuss deciding to stop publishing books which *they* consider to be legitimately offensive) and instead complain about a theoretical slippery slope (The liberals want to cancel Dr. Seuss!!).

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41 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Adam Server: "The Muppets, Dr Seuss, Mr Potatohead. Republicans are laser focused on the issues that matter to working class voters under ten."

My response to that would be if it's not a big deal then why are we changing it at all?  I mean, it's no big deal, right?

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Aside from their Song of the South situation, I'm fine with the label that Disney puts in front of some of their movies.  It doesn't sensor them....but at least lets the viewer know that past Disney projects might have not taken the highest road in regards to perpetuating stereotypes.

On an aside to that, one night after The Mandalorian.....we put on Lady and the Tramp to revisit the Siamese Cats.  Man, those were some stereotypical cats.  Way worse than I remembered as a kid. 

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

See this is the type of over the top, ridiculous rhetoric that caused me to believe this whole “movement” is disingenuous. 
Did the removal of Song of the South result in other Disney movies being banned? 
Did the removal of Speedy Gonzalez cartoons result in other Warner Brothers cartoon characters being banned? 
 

This is from Obama in 2016:

in 2016, Obama called Seuss "one of America's revered wordsmiths," and said "Theodor Seuss Geisel—or Dr. Seuss—used his incredible talent to instill in his most impressionable readers universal values we all hold dear.

"Through a prolific collection of stories, he made children see that reading is fun, and in the process, he emphasized respect for all; pushed us to accept ourselves for who we are; challenged preconceived notions and encouraged trying new things; and by example, taught us that we are limited by nothing but the range of our aspirations and the vibrancy of our imaginations.

"And for older lovers of literature, he reminded us not to take ourselves too seriously, creating wacky and wild characters and envisioning creative and colorful places."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fact-check-did-joe-biden-break-a-dr-seuss-tradition-on-read-across-america-day-2021/ar-BB1ea178

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Adam Serwer: "The Muppets, Dr Seuss, Mr Potatohead. Republicans are laser focused on the issues that matter to working class voters under ten."

Nah, just the people who think they are offensive for 10 and under.  The left is tackling these issues and making the world a much better and safer place.  

I must confess I'm this way because I got a Billy Martin card in 1972 and he was flipping off the camerman. If they knew anbout this, they would take away my Mickey Mantle cards.  

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Also, as others have noted, it's not Republicans who are initiating any of these changes.  It would be as if the Fundies started making fun of Democrats for being laser-focused on Judy Bloom.

The people initiating them are Democrats, but most Democrats think those people are nuts (I hope)?

So it really shouldn't be considered part of the culture war between Republicans and Democrats (which seems to be how Republicans are trying to frame it?), but between people who are nuts in that particular way versus people who are nuts in different ways instead.

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6 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

The people initiating them are Democrats, but most Democrats think those people are nuts (I hope)?

So it really shouldn't be considered part of the culture war between Republicans and Democrats (which seems to be how Republicans are trying to frame it?), but between people who are nuts in that particular way versus people who are nuts in different ways instead.

yes

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1 hour ago, djmich said:

I haven't re-read the thread but are people defending stuff that is legitimately offensive?

Seems to me that most on the right are so hyper-sensitive to "Cancel Culture" that in their zeal to create an "anti-cancel culture culture", they can't discuss whether anything is actually offensive.

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Or, in some cases, we're creating moral standards that are based on ignorance.  For 99% of lifetime, nearly all calls for various flavors of censorship were really just people bouncing ignorance and anti-intellectualism off one another.  I'm thinking here of calls for banning Huck Finn (mentioned on the previous page), To Kill a Mockingbird, Harry Potter, Judy Bloom, and so on.  Those folks shouldn't really be accommodated -- derisive mockery is a better response.

At least in this case, we're talking about material that's legitimately kind of offensive even if we recognize that it's a product of its time.

Wait - what's wrong with Judy Bloom?

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5 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

It's Blume, you troglodytes!   Do you even read, bro?  

;)

🤢

 

(Didn't there used to be a bag over the head emoji?)

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Just remember folks, Dr Seuss, Potato Head, etc countless others.....these are all far more important than ending the bombing of thousands upon thousands of middle eastern children and civilians, closing the wealth gap, and making sure everyone here has health insurance. All backseat, trivial issues in comparison tbh.

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6 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Encouraging to see at least some on the left embarrassed by this idiocy.

Wait.  You think the left should be embarrassed about the Potato Head thing and the Dr. Seuss thing?  Seems to me the left has attempted to ignore these while the right has whined about both like it's the end of the world.

Edited by Rich Conway
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6 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

Wait.  You think the left should be embarrassed about the Potato Head thing and the Dr. Seuss thing?  Seems to me the left has attempted to ignore these while the right has whined about both like it's the end of the world.

That's probably a good idea. When I was a young right-winger, I was always a little embarrassed that it was always people on "my side" who were picking dumb culture war battles.  

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I think it's funny that the new Democratic narrative now seems obsessed with the Republican narrative, and so on and meta everything. It's quite possible to be concerned both with pressing issues and issues like cancel culture. It's not an either/or proposition, necessarily, and it would behoove both sides to drop the focus on the other sides' narrative and see about their own house. That way you'd actually have moderate Republicans worried about insurrections and political lunacy and the like and you'd have more moderate Dems worries that their compatriots on the left weren't proceeding apace with cancel lunacy. But instead we get each side focused on the value of each others' "narrative" and never more meta was politics.

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3 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I think it's funny that the new Democratic narrative now seems obsessed with the Republican narrative, and so on and meta everything. 

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies."

Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a bunch of snowflakes."

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

This is from Obama in 2016:

in 2016, Obama called Seuss "one of America's revered wordsmiths," and said "Theodor Seuss Geisel—or Dr. Seuss—used his incredible talent to instill in his most impressionable readers universal values we all hold dear.

"Through a prolific collection of stories, he made children see that reading is fun, and in the process, he emphasized respect for all; pushed us to accept ourselves for who we are; challenged preconceived notions and encouraged trying new things; and by example, taught us that we are limited by nothing but the range of our aspirations and the vibrancy of our imaginations.

"And for older lovers of literature, he reminded us not to take ourselves too seriously, creating wacky and wild characters and envisioning creative and colorful places."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fact-check-did-joe-biden-break-a-dr-seuss-tradition-on-read-across-america-day-2021/ar-BB1ea178

Ok...cool, none of what is happening changes what Obama said...nor does it make him or anyone who praised Dr. Seuss wrong.

 

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15 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies."

Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a bunch of snowflakes."

That's true, too, but I was going for "Look at those snowflake right-wingers complaining about that thing we did. What a bunch of dummies trying to distract you from that dumb thing they did."

It's actually a little more vicious this way. You focus on the other team's "playbook" and insist it shouldn't be that way at all because the other team should be worried about other, more pressing issues first. It's a real weird argument, the one over narrative. It's officially now working the refs to the nth degree.

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1 hour ago, FairWarning said:

This is from Obama in 2016:

in 2016, Obama called Seuss "one of America's revered wordsmiths," and said "Theodor Seuss Geisel—or Dr. Seuss—used his incredible talent to instill in his most impressionable readers universal values we all hold dear.

"Through a prolific collection of stories, he made children see that reading is fun, and in the process, he emphasized respect for all; pushed us to accept ourselves for who we are; challenged preconceived notions and encouraged trying new things; and by example, taught us that we are limited by nothing but the range of our aspirations and the vibrancy of our imaginations.

"And for older lovers of literature, he reminded us not to take ourselves too seriously, creating wacky and wild characters and envisioning creative and colorful places."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fact-check-did-joe-biden-break-a-dr-seuss-tradition-on-read-across-america-day-2021/ar-BB1ea178

Obama probably said nice things about Presidents Lincoln and Jefferson too, combined with the Seuss support its clear we need to start focusing on his hidden support of white supremacy.

Sorry, ya'll made me do it.

Along those lines I feel sometimes that by staying the same, I've moved to the right.  I'd consider myself a Obama lite liberal and somehow over the past 5yrs I became a fascist without thinking any differently.  

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36 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies."

Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a bunch of snowflakes."

This doesn't seem accurate in the recent example.  Progressives literally didn't do anything in the Potato Head example.

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1 hour ago, Rich Conway said:

Seems to me that most on the right are so hyper-sensitive to "Cancel Culture" that in their zeal to create an "anti-cancel culture culture", they can't discuss whether anything is actually offensive.

Oooooohhhh you totally nailed us. Yep. We can't admit when cartoons and muppets are offensive. We just live in a pseudo reality that is different from the real world you live in where you totally freely identify all of the offensive muppets and cartoons and make sure that nobody gets to see these horrible things. And we just bury our heads in the sand. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

This doesn't seem accurate in the recent example.  Progressives literally didn't do anything in the Potato Head example.

If you don't like the Mr. Potato Head story -- and I don't blame you, I would be mortified to have to defend that one too -- you can pick one of a million other examples of progressives picking lame culture war battles.  The San Francisco school board is single-handedly keeping the Ben Shapiros of the world in business, and we get some new flavor of the same general topic seemingly every day.  

That's another gambit that's getting a little stale.  "Yeah this may be dumb, but it's just this one dumb person doing this one dumb thing this one time -- why are you snowflakes so triggered do you need a safe space etc. etc." ignoring the fact that each one of these admittedly minor stories is part of a much larger trend.

Heck, I agree with the decision to pull some of the Dr. Seuss titles that got pulled.  It doesn't change the fact that people are acting like our food supply got contaminated with ergot earlier this year.

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Judy Blume.

Well there's a blast from the past. She must have sent the religious folk that wanted no sex ed in schools up a wall. The problem with sex ed and parental choice runs deep. I side with the parens partriae theory of education on that one. Watching a ninth grade girl cry because she'd taken a virtual tour of second base with someone and thought she was pregnant was mighty disconcerting to a young rockaction. I don't know how that happened in our school district, but it did. That's shaky and really shouldn't be happening, no matter what the objection to it. Basic biological education is too fundamental to life to completely remove that sort of instruction from schooling.

Now that I've taken the popular position, let me posit that this cleansing of everything that might be tainted with race, class, or gender datedness is just as whitewashing and informed by zealotry as the disavowal of Blume. Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret certainly sent the doodles abuzz in many a town for its frank discussion of menstruation and bust sizes for females at a young age, yet that's considered ridiculous by the same people now scrubbing Lincoln off of the walls? It's stupid, and that's why it's spoken about. Because the left-wing goons that replicate on social media and other spaces such as that need to be slapped in the head with the quickening stick before they breed more of them.

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5 hours ago, Sea Duck said:

No, but that's not how it works.

The point of the culture war is to ignore the actual story (Seuss deciding to stop publishing books which *they* consider to be legitimately offensive) and instead complain about a theoretical slippery slope (The liberals want to cancel Dr. Seuss!!).

You seriously think they did this on their own?

:lmao:

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And before we chime in with "well that's one place, at one time," don't forget how big the San Francisco area is and how representative their school board has to be of their populace. These are elected positions, and school board positions are usually stepping stones to bigger political careers. That's where you get started locally -- the school board. San Francisco is a huge metropolitan area.

So let's spare me the "few people, few places, no biggie" thing and take a little ownership of a trend, thanks.

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies."

Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a bunch of snowflakes."

This sums up the PSF Beautifully 

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2 hours ago, Rich Conway said:
2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies."

Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a bunch of snowflakes."

This doesn't seem accurate in the recent example.  Progressives literally didn't do anything in the Potato Head example.

That's a reasonable point. On the other hand:

2 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

You seriously think they did this on their own?

:lmao:

 

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9 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

That's a reasonable point.

You really must have done the herky-jerk on your way out of the Republican party, because you and sho have bent over through every contortionist's pose to help bulwark the left in their march through every institution that never really asked for the radical wing of such to be there. In the event of the seemingly ridiculous, you guys sure have a knack for breaking the glass and introducing red herrings and semantics all over the place. In this instance, it happens to be focusing on whether Republicans should be focusing on topics of their choosing.

Republicans: Look at this ridiculousness!

Democrats: How dare you look at our purple asses! That was never on the agenda we set for you to have!

Just tired left-wing reflexive nonsense coated in a more intellectual version of today's talking points for the masses. Congrats. You got the advanced version for this message board.

I'm sure you'll have no trouble in your reflex test at the next doctor appointment you have.

Edited by rockaction
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5 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

The weird thing about this is that when I was younger, it was self-identified liberals who were fairly vocal about wanting kids to have access to Judy Bloom books, and I agreed with them.  Is it the biggest issue facing our society?  Of course not.  But it really is kind of frustrating to realize exactly how few people support free expression as a matter of general principle.

Also, as others have noted, it's not Republicans who are initiating any of these changes.  It would be as if the Fundies started making fun of Democrats for being laser-focused on Judy Bloom.

Wait, is Judy Blume cancelled now?

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6 minutes ago, rockaction said:
14 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

That's a reasonable point.

You really must have done the herky-jerk on your way out of the Republican party, because you and sho have bent over through every contortionist's pose to help bulwark the left in their march through every institution that never really asked for the radical wing of such to be there. In the event of the seemingly ridiculous, you guys sure have a knack for breaking the glass and introducing red herrings and semantics all over the place. In this instance, it happens to be focusing on whether Republicans should be focusing on topics of their choosing.

Republicans: Look at this ridiculousness!

Democrats: How dare you look at our purple asses! That was never on the agenda we set for you to have!

Just tired left-wing reflexive nonsense coated in a more intellectual version of today's talking points for the masses. Congrats. You got the advanced version for this message board.

I'm sure you'll have no trouble in your reflex test at the next doctor appointment you have.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm more to the right than Ivan on this one.

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1 minute ago, Steve Tasker said:

Wait, is Judy Blume cancelled now?

No, but fundamentalists in the '80s wanted her to be. He's drawing a parallel of fundamentalism between the religious zealots of the late seventies and eighties to the cancel culture left of today. Blume was anathema to cultural conservatives back then because she spoke of menstruation and sexual identities of ten-twelve year-olds, puberty being especially important.

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3 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm more to the right than Ivan on this one.

Well, then, carry on. My mistake. And apologies. Seems like I have you confused with Conway, anyway.

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

Of the 6 Dr Seuss books that are being removed, I’ve never heard of 5 of them. The only one I can barely remember is Mulberry Street and even that isn’t one of his classics. If they’re racist, if they offend people, they should be gone. We don’t watch Song of the South anymore either; that doesn’t mean Pinocchio is next. The classic Dr Seuss books aren’t going away. Neither are the classic Roald Dahl books, despite the fact that he was a notorious anti-Semite. Neither are the classic Disney movies. You guys are freaking out because you want to freak out. 

Jesus Christ how many more examples do you need to see before you realize this isn’t Conservatives “freaking out”, but it’s Liberals acting like freaks?  You wonder why there are Trump supporters?  It’s this crap. 

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So far, there has been no evidence, even anecdotal, that I have seen to suggest that Hasbro took their Potato Head action based on any complaints from "the left".  It was literally the definition of a corporation exercising its version of "free speech".  Liberals summarily ignored the news.  Conservatives freaked out because they are constantly looking for reasons to freak out.  Then, of course, it turns out that what Hasbro actually did was not at all what conservative outlets reported.  Yet somehow this dust up is the fault of liberals?

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