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The “Woke” thread (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Dr. Seuss Canceled By Virginia School System For ‘Read Across America’ Day
Ebay Is Removing Listings for Discontinued Dr Seuss Books, Citing 'Offensive Materials Policy'
"Listings that promote or glorify hatred, violence, or discrimination aren't allowed," the automated email says.
Ebay Is Removing Listings for Discontinued Dr Seuss Books, Citing 'Offensive Materials Policy'
"Listings that promote or glorify hatred, violence, or discrimination aren't allowed," the automated email says.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Yeah, I posted it wasn't the same, just arguing that it wasn't just a couple people out of boredom I guess.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Does this include Green Eggs and Ham, Horton Hears a Who, One Fish Two Fish, or the Grinch?
djmich
Footballguy
This has been discussed the past five pages.
So why did they do it. Why did they deem Dr Seuss a threat and a violation of their sensitivities policies.
Why now.
But not deem pornography, movies with racism, music condoning cop killing, on & on...a violation.
What was the conversation in the board room?
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Not eBay but the Loudon County action canceled the annual reading of Green Eggs and Ham. Also I believe Biden ended that annual reading as well. So woke.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
You asked a question about the two articles I listed and I answered it. Would have helped if you took a quick look at the articles.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Seems the published deemed it and they decided those titles were not what they wanted sold.
None of us being there...i have no idea what the conversation was.
rockaction
Footballguy
This has become a stupid argument trying to convince people who are acting in bad faith that this isn't a movement and doesn't come from the left. You know it does. Stop bothering with arguments to the contrary. Your evidence won't convince them because they're here to gaslight.
rockaction
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Stop. Its not bad faith. It's that these situations aren’t all the same and aren’t all mob driven cancel culture.
There is no evidence. And calling that gaslighting vs those claiming its all mob driven is laughable.
djmich
Footballguy
You seem pretty knowledgeable and experienced, why don’t you give it a try to describe the conversation. There is no penalty, it’s not a job interview.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
LMAO.
Also, where IS the mob? Anyone have a photo of the mob? Does the mob go home every night to go to bed and then reassemble in the morning? No really I'm asking in good faith here.
Also, where IS the mob? Anyone have a photo of the mob? Does the mob go home every night to go to bed and then reassemble in the morning? No really I'm asking in good faith here.
Harvard CAPS-Harris Poll - Cancel Culture Viewed as Threat to Freedom by 64 Percent of Americans
Lower number than I would have thought.
Lower number than I would have thought.
FairWarning
Footballguy
FairWarning
Footballguy
There are a lot of fish out there who think our government also acts in our best interests.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This is exactly right. I was persuaded several years ago the whole "woke" phenomenon is essentially a weird form of a religious awakening. Or, if you're feeling less charitable, it's a cult. Either way, religious fundamentalists have a long, storied history of public shaming and banning ideas that they don't like.
As a theist, I was always kind of embarrassed when it was people that I sort of identified with who were engaged in this stuff. It's really kind of refreshing when it's somebody else instead. Not that that actually makes any better of course.
Moliere would have field day with these folks.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Honestly Sho, I think a more telling thing would be if there were actions like this started without "the mob". That would mean that this stuff is starting to seep into the conscious enough that people and business are reacting even more preemptively to nip it in the bud.
My guess is huge companies have brand people that part of their job is to look for negative press and get ahead of it. It's not out of the realm of possibilities to say that somebody saw this Suess paper start to climb some trending rank and wanted to get ahead of any possible "mob".
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Have any of them offered a reason? Have any of them been asked? I guess it's just easier to project your own beliefs onto others and make assumptions?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I'm unclear on the distinction between "let the customer decide" and "let the company decide". Why is one OK but not the other?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Yes, let's just assign motives and reasoning. No need to bother with that step where we ask the people actually making decisions why they made those decisions. I mean, I wasn't there, but I imagine that if there was anyone outside Amazon HQ with picket signs and Dr. Seuss effigies, we would have heard about it.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Because people should generally be free to live their lives as they see fit, as long as they aren't harming others.
That's why in most cases it's a good thing that companies sell a variety of products even if their product lines include stuff that I don't want to buy, why it's good that libraries stock a lot of books including books that I have no interest in reading, why it's good that record labels produce a variety of music including music I don't necessarily like, etc. Most of the time, more choice is better and restricting choice is worse.
Edit: In other words, it's not really an issue of whether to privilege consumers or firms. It's more like supporting the side that's in favor of free expression and openness. I'm generally opposed to consumers who want to restrict what other people can consume (e.g. Moral Majority), and here I'm opposed to firms who want to restrict what other people can consume (e.g. eBay).
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Rich Conway
Footballguy
I'm quite sure that large corporations do have people doing this. I just wouldn't describe it as trying to "get ahead of the woke mob". That seems to me like fishing for a negative attribution of motive.Honestly Sho, I think a more telling thing would be if there were actions like this started without "the mob". That would mean that this stuff is starting to seep into the conscious enough that people and business are reacting even more preemptively to nip it in the bud.
My guess is huge companies have brand people that part of their job is to look for negative press and get ahead of it. It's not out of the realm of possibilities to say that somebody saw this Suess paper start to climb some trending rank and wanted to get ahead of any possible "mob".
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yes...what would really make this conversation better is speculating what Ebay might have talked about.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Id rather these companies decide what to put out on their platforms than the government dictate to them what they can and can't do.
I don't give a rat's behind what ebay does or doesn't offer.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
But if we force companies to carry items they would rather not, we are restricting choice. I get your argument, I really do, but it's two sides of the same coin.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I think compaies are starting to get in front of things and realize some of what they did in the past may not have been great.Honestly Sho, I think a more telling thing would be if there were actions like this started without "the mob". That would mean that this stuff is starting to seep into the conscious enough that people and business are reacting even more preemptively to nip it in the bud.
My guess is huge companies have brand people that part of their job is to look for negative press and get ahead of it. It's not out of the realm of possibilities to say that somebody saw this Suess paper start to climb some trending rank and wanted to get ahead of any possible "mob".
Disney with the warning on the muppets (and other movies) being an example.
And I agree that many companies likely have a branding person looking for such things (and probably should be looking for a great number of ways they can do better).
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
It's time to knock it off with this strawman. "I think companies should sell a broad array of products" is not the same thing as "Companies should be forced to sell a broad array of products." I know you know the distinction here, and it's been explained to you previously as well.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Getting ahead of negative press better? IMO a similar thing if that is what is going on.
I wasn't there, but I am just saying that I could for sure picture this being an issue for companies and them not wanting to deal with the crap.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Exactly...I have no problem if Ebay wants to keep allowing these books to be auctioned. Just as I don't care if people are going out looking for these books now.
Seems in this situation...the system is working how it is supposed to. People and companies are not being restricted or told what to do by government and are doing what they feel is best for them.
Isn't that what we want?
FairWarning
Footballguy
I don’t either. I think it’s just hypocritical that they think those books are offensive when they offer far more offensive things on their site.
djmich
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Sure...they could be more consistent. But companies act hypocritically all the time.
Would those books have been big sellers anywhere without the Seuss announcement? Was anyone out trying to get their hands on these books?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Feels like I am in the middle of the pack on this stuff, and we all have our own barometer on what is warranted and what is eye rolling. For me personally, there is a bit of a difference between not having The Song of the South available and needing trigger warnings for The Muppets. Now, I am not sounding the alarm bells, but my eyebrows are raised.
sho nuff
Footballguy
No.
Though, discrimination is different than determining what books to allow be sold on their platform. If they were removing things for reasons of race, religion, or gender...we would have legal issues.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
eBay's decision doesn't seem to be based specifically on woke cancel culture pressure, but based on their own internal interpretations on what they think the Seuss company would want. They continue to offer all manner of other items deemed inappropriate or offensive by the cancel culture community -- the only difference being, it seems, that the estates of the original creators have not disavowed them.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Very little of it bothers me. I think places (especially people like disney) are being vigilant and also realize a lot of what came out in earlier years pushed the lines at times and played up stereotypes.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Maybe.
It just seems to me that "the right" is scared of this invisible mob that, to me, is largely (maybe not entirely, but largely) imaginary and mostly invoked by right-wing talking heads to generate outrage (and thus clicks/ratings).Rich Conway
Footballguy
Tell you what, I'll stop with "forcing companies" when the other side stops with "the woke mob is forcing companies". Deal?
djmich
Footballguy
So thought discrimination you support but race, religion and gender discrimination you do not?
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t like how society is becoming more and more intolerant of free thought lately. This “cancel culture” movement has gone way too far. I don’t want to live in a world where Abraham Lincoln is shunned and people won’t read Dr. Seuss.
- Perfectly reasonable POV.
The “cancel culture” movement is a coordinated effort by liberals to cancel conservatives. The plan is to force a society in which only liberal thought is allowed, and conservatism is illegal.
-Perfectly unreasonable POV.
- Perfectly reasonable POV.
The “cancel culture” movement is a coordinated effort by liberals to cancel conservatives. The plan is to force a society in which only liberal thought is allowed, and conservatism is illegal.
-Perfectly unreasonable POV.
sho nuff
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This is kind of nitpicking and I totally agree with the point you're making, so please take it in that spirit. The woke people hate liberals as much or more than they hate conservatives.
That part hasn't seeped into the mainstream yet, but I live on the front lines of this stuff and I see it all the time. Just last week I had to sit through a scholarship interview during which a faculty member and student heaped criticism on liberals -- and the Udall family in particular -- because they've historically supported assimilation as a goal for immigrants and American Indians. Conservatives never came up. This is not unusual.
Also, liberals like capitalism. That's almost a defining feature of what "liberal" means. You should ask an initiate of the woke what they think about capitalism sometime.
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timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t think there is such thing as an “initiate of the woke”. That’s my point- I don’t see any pattern here. There are people who want to remove things from our society that they find offensive. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don’t. But I don’t believe they’re thinking deeply about capitalism, or conservatism, or any other ism. They have no ulterior motive. They simply want to remove the stuff they want to remove and there’s nothing else involved IMO.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Space Captain
Footballguy
I apologize for getting in late on this. Can you elaborate more on the bolded?
Maybe it's semantics or splitting hairs and I also don't spend much time thinking about this but I found both of those things somewhat surprising.
I normally do think of woke as more a liberal thing. And I don't normally think of liking capitalism as an especially liberal thing.
Sand
Footballguy
So somehow Mein Kampf doesn't promote hatred and violence, but If I Ran the Zoo does?
HFS these people are absolutely bat#### crazy.
Sand
Footballguy
This part is dead on. This is a coordinated effort to control what one thinks by controlling what one can say and what one can consume. Challenges to the accepted dogma must be quashed. Thought crimes must be rooted out and punished.
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