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“Cancel Culture” and “Woke”


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On 3/16/2021 at 2:42 PM, Mile High said:

Lows rated Grammys on record. Let's see a show of hands of people who actually saw their performance on the show or latter because of the controversy?

I've seen more people outraged about Bill Burr than Cardi B. I had no idea the Grammys were even on but saw lots of videos on Bill Burr being a racist this week because I watch content related to him. I thought for sure he would be the topic from the grammys in this thread. 

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That was way too long a post.  Gordon Gekko is looking at that and wondering why I couldn't tighten it up a little.

Cancelling an awards show might be the best thing ever to emerge from the woke movement.  If they cancel the Oscars, I might become pro-woke.

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies." Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a

So a senior staffer at Teen Vogue who expressed concern about the hiring of the new editor and wanted her fired for her old tweets has a history of her own:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/senior-teen-vogue-staffer-who-supported-editor-in-chiefs-ousting-over-controversial-tweets-used-n-word-on-social-media/ar-BB1eOtzx

This cancel thing is quite entertaining in addition to how sad it is.

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2 hours ago, John123 said:

This cancel thing is quite entertaining in addition to how sad it is.

Watching the woke eating the woke while they're all going broke.

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4 hours ago, John123 said:

So a senior staffer at Teen Vogue who expressed concern about the hiring of the new editor and wanted her fired for her old tweets has a history of her own:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/senior-teen-vogue-staffer-who-supported-editor-in-chiefs-ousting-over-controversial-tweets-used-n-word-on-social-media/ar-BB1eOtzx

This cancel thing is quite entertaining in addition to how sad it is.

This whole ordeal is completely pathetic, but this particular “cancelling” should it happen is one of the few I can get behind.  What goes around comes around.

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5 hours ago, John123 said:

So a senior staffer at Teen Vogue who expressed concern about the hiring of the new editor and wanted her fired for her old tweets has a history of her own:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/senior-teen-vogue-staffer-who-supported-editor-in-chiefs-ousting-over-controversial-tweets-used-n-word-on-social-media/ar-BB1eOtzx

This cancel thing is quite entertaining in addition to how sad it is.

"What is this thing I'm being hoist upon?  Oh, it's my own petard.  How ironic."

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Recommendations Need to be Canceled

 

Also love this tidbit

Quote

Writing letters, I find that too many of my male students ask for them in a manner that feels more like a demand than a request.

Imagine if she was white and said that about her black students.  We'd be able to watch another witch burn.

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I actually kind of hate letters of recommendation too.  They take quite a bit of time to write and they convey very little actual information, which is a pretty good argument for not doing them.  

But yeah obviously they're not racist.  The author is weak-manning the case for a proposal that I wish we would take a little more seriously. 

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7 minutes ago, djmich said:

Recommendations Need to be Canceled

 

Also love this tidbit

Imagine if she was white and said that about her black students.  We'd be able to watch another witch burn.

See, now this is one of the parts of the opposite side of cancel culture I really don’t like. Now that everything gets cancelled, some people will now just shrug it off as people overreacting and not fully try to understand an issue.

I wouldn’t necessarily consider recommendations to be racist, but they most certainly strongly benefit wealthy people, who we all know are disproportionately white. Of course NBC probably wanted to get more clicks by including ‘racist’ in the headline but I think the preview of ‘Letters of recommendation only ensure that the privileged stay privileged’ is a pretty accurate description. 

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I actually kind of hate letters of recommendation too.  They take quite a bit of time to write and they convey very little actual information, which is a pretty good argument for not doing them.  

But yeah obviously they're not racist.  The author is weak-manning the case for a proposal that I wish we would take a little more seriously. 

How can they take a long time and convey little info? 

My sister writes insanely detailed ones so I understand when she is a little overwhelmed with them. 

Is it just a sheer volume issue?

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This thread continues to be filled mostly with anecdotes and examples of political correctness gone too far. To most of those examples I say, agreed. That’s too far, or unfair. 

It doesn’t change the principle. I think we live in a far better and more civil society when we don’t offend people, when we try not to make bigoted or racist or sexist or homophobic comments. And the transition to that society is, unfortunately, going to come with some excess and unfair treatment. When that happens, the correct response is to call it out and condemn it and try to keep it from happening. But we shouldn’t try to go backwards. We can’t. And we shouldn’t try to pretend there’s some malevolent plan or pattern, because there isn’t one. 

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9 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I actually kind of hate letters of recommendation too.  They take quite a bit of time to write and they convey very little actual information, which is a pretty good argument for not doing them.  

But yeah obviously they're not racist.  The author is weak-manning the case for a proposal that I wish we would take a little more seriously. 

 

5 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

 

See, now this is one of the parts of the opposite side of cancel culture I really don’t like. Now that everything gets cancelled, some people will now just shrug it off as people overreacting and not fully try to understand an issue.

I wouldn’t necessarily consider recommendations to be racist, but they most certainly strongly benefit wealthy people, who we all know are disproportionately white. Of course NBC probably wanted to get more clicks by including ‘racist’ in the headline but I think the preview of ‘Letters of recommendation only ensure that the privileged stay privileged’ is a pretty accurate description. 

Yes.  I actually think its an interesting conversation.  I'm not in the education business so feel a little out of my realm opining, but I just happened to write a few for a colleague and I was wondering about their effectiveness and benefit.

Agree with Ivan that labeling them racist is unnecessary and shortcuts a discussion around more valid points.

Bucs, I hear you on the benefiting people that have connections with worthwhile recommenders.  I think that is a consideration, but what I read in the article was that the author felt bad about asking her teachers for a recommendation (not that she didn't have any sources of recommendations).  My colleague felt bad asking me too.  She's white and so am I...recommendations are a pain in the ###.

Here's a quote from her:

Quote

To be sure, references can be valuable, and I’m not suggesting we do away with them entirely. But there’s a difference between asking applicants to provide contact information for potential references and requiring them to procure several formal letters of recommendation in order to even complete an application.

So...she's ok with the racist recommendation machine...is this her then simply tired of filling them out then on behalf of students (which she makes pretty clear she is tired of completing them)?  

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This thread continues to be filled mostly with anecdotes and examples of political correctness gone too far. To most of those examples I say, agreed. That’s too far, or unfair. 

It doesn’t change the principle. I think we live in a far better and more civil society when we don’t offend people, when we try not to make bigoted or racist or sexist or homophobic comments. And the transition to that society is, unfortunately, going to come with some excess and unfair treatment. When that happens, the correct response is to call it out and condemn it and try to keep it from happening. But we shouldn’t try to go backwards. We can’t. And we shouldn’t try to pretend there’s some malevolent plan or pattern, because there isn’t one. 

When that happens, the correct response is to call it out and condemn it and try to keep it from happening.

How come you never seem to have the correct response or have issues with people having the correct response (calling it out).

 

But we shouldn’t try to go backwards.

I'm sure you'll deflect and say otherwise but you seem to be implying here the people calling it out are trying to go backwards...can you give an instance where we are trying to go backwards?

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Just now, djmich said:

When that happens, the correct response is to call it out and condemn it and try to keep it from happening.

How come you never seem to have the correct response or have issues with people having the correct response (calling it out).

 

But we shouldn’t try to go backwards.

I'm sure you'll deflect and say otherwise but you seem to be implying here the people calling it out are trying to go backwards...can you give an instance where we are trying to go backwards?

1. The correct response is to say “agreed, that’s too far”. Which I think I just did. 
2. I’m not making any specific implications against anyone here. But in terms of our politicians: those who are currently complaining the loudest about “cancel culture” are largely the same folks who have attempted to stop each move forward towards (what I believe is) a more civil society. Therefore, I think it’s reasonable to assume that when they make these current complaints their intent is to reverse direction. 

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2 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

How can they take a long time and convey little info? 

It probably takes me 60-90 minutes to write a good letter of recommendation.  That's not a huge deal until you consider that you're writing a handful of these things every year.  I probably spend the equivalent of two full workdays per year writing letters.  Again, not a huge deal, but not nothing either.

There are two main problems with letters of recommendation.  The first is that they really convey very little real information.  Every job market candidate is brilliant.  Every prospective grad student shows boundless promise to the discipline.  Every scholarship applicant is the next Steve Jobs.  When every letter you read says more or less the same thing, their value as a signal drops way off.

What makes them even worse is that I've noticed a tendency for people to judge applicants based on the literary quality of their letters, which of course they have no control over.  (A very closely related phenomenon is the way that search committees sometimes interview a candidate's references and judge the candidate based on how glib their references are).  It would be better not to even read reference letters at all if you're going to confuse "great letter" with "great candidate."  

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8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

It probably takes me 60-90 minutes to write a good letter of recommendation.  That's not a huge deal until you consider that you're writing a handful of these things every year.  I probably spend the equivalent of two full workdays per year writing letters.  Again, not a huge deal, but not nothing either.

There are two main problems with letters of recommendation.  The first is that they really convey very little real information.  Every job market candidate is brilliant.  Every prospective grad student shows boundless promise to the discipline.  Every scholarship applicant is the next Steve Jobs.  When every letter you read says more or less the same thing, their value as a signal drops way off.

What makes them even worse is that I've noticed a tendency for people to judge applicants based on the literary quality of their letters, which of course they have no control over.  (A very closely related phenomenon is the way that search committees sometimes interview a candidate's references and judge the candidate based on how glib their references are).  It would be better not to even read reference letters at all if you're going to confuse "great letter" with "great candidate."  

Yah, that was my thought when I was filling mine out for colleague...its primarily a challenge as to which writer can best write the most fluff while at the same time balancing some element of realism lol.

Back to bucs point on the inherent disadvantage POC may have.  My first reaction is that yes isn't that a disadvantage if say the rich white kid has a doctor or lawyer to write a letter and the college gives that additional credibility.

But if anything it feels like we are moving away from "its all about the scores" and to "we need a diverse body with rich experience and a score does not encapsulate you entirely"...I wont go on the tangent where some are looking to eliminate scores entirely.  So if anything letters from people who know you personally would seem to be a way to learn about someone. 

The POC that is involved in his or her church or that has a high school teacher writing a letter or really anybody that can to attest to the content of their character....do we really think that TODAY colleges are looking at those letters and tossing them out because Thurston Howell III had a letter from someone with ESQ. after their name?

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I actually kind of hate letters of recommendation too.  They take quite a bit of time to write and they convey very little actual information, which is a pretty good argument for not doing them.  

But yeah obviously they're not racist.  The author is weak-manning the case for a proposal that I wish we would take a little more seriously. 

I have a couple of templates that I've written.  They're pretty quick now.

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It is a surprisingly short step from “chronic fear of environmental doom,” as the American Psychological Association defines ecoanxiety, to xenophobia and fascism. Racism is not an accidental byproduct of environmentalism; it has been a constant reference point. As I wrote about in my first book, The Ecological Other, early environmentalists in the U.S. were anti-immigrant eugenicists whose ideas were later adopted by Nazis to implement their “blood and soil” ideology. In a recent, dramatic example, the gunman of the 2019 El Paso shooting was motivated by despair about the ecological fate of the planet: “My whole life I have been preparing for a future that currently doesn’t exist.” Intense emotions mobilize people, but not always for the good of all life on this planet.

Today’s progressives espouse climate change as the “greatest existential threat of our time,” a claim that ignores people who have been experiencing existential threats for much longer. Slavery, colonialism, ongoing police brutality—we can’t neglect history to save the future.

This was published in Scientific American.  Totally normal, sane stuff.  Nothing to see here.

(I'm actually wondering if this isn't another hoax article).

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33 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This was published in Scientific American.  Totally normal, sane stuff.  Nothing to see here.

(I'm actually wondering if this isn't another hoax article).

Oh I see, you are one of those science denying orange expertphobes.

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7 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Hasbro getting woke again. Monopoly

I think some of you are going out of your way to find CC and wokeness everywhere.   Board games have updated cards/pieces in the past.   Not sure what the issue is about Monopoly updated cards.   

Didn't the game of Life do something similar a few years back?

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

I think some of you are going out of your way to find CC and wokeness everywhere.   Board games have updated cards/pieces in the past.   Not sure what the issue is about Monopoly updated cards.   

Didn't the game of Life do something similar a few years back?

Some of these games are already about a generation of updates behind.  Don't count me in as someone that gets worked up about this.  Although...I am waiting with baiting breath on how far the monopoly folks will bend over lol

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So a company can cancel itself now? I mean, was anyone even complaining about this Monopoly issue? From reading the article, it seems like they internally evaluated that switching up some of the pieces made sense so they went ahead and did that. The article also mentions they switched up their playing pieces in both 2013 and 2017 so seems kind of absurd to pin this one on cancel culture, especially when it doesn't even sound like anyone got cancelled?

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30 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

So a company can cancel itself now? I mean, was anyone even complaining about this Monopoly issue? From reading the article, it seems like they internally evaluated that switching up some of the pieces made sense so they went ahead and did that. The article also mentions they switched up their playing pieces in both 2013 and 2017 so seems kind of absurd to pin this one on cancel culture, especially when it doesn't even sound like anyone got cancelled?

Is it possible this is all marketing?  Seems to me the best advertising is free advertising and if you just create headlines by riding this silly wave, you're bound to push merch. 

 

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3 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

Is it possible this is all marketing?  Seems to me the best advertising is free advertising and if you just create headlines by riding this silly wave, you're bound to push merch.

Very good point. I'm sure they looked at it from that angle and when you think about it that way, it was a really a no-brainer move for them. Free marketing + potential positive press for getting ahead of a possible issue.

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1 hour ago, djmich said:

Some of these games are already about a generation of updates behind.  Don't count me in as someone that gets worked up about this.  Although...I am waiting with baiting breath on how far the monopoly folks will bend over lol

I guess it could run the spectrum.  Like the above couple posted, IMO it's more marketing to keep the game "fresh".  The new cards will probably end up being something like "your video went viral, Collect $300" , not "your FB post from 2009 got you canceled, Lose a Turn".  

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1 hour ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Very good point. I'm sure they looked at it from that angle and when you think about it that way, it was a really a no-brainer move for them. Free marketing + potential positive press for getting ahead of a possible issue.

Are any for CC or Chance cards that "iffy"?   Maybe I don't play Monopoly enough and I am missing something.  

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:
2 hours ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Hasbro getting woke again. Monopoly

I think some of you are going out of your way to find CC and wokeness everywhere.   Board games have updated cards/pieces in the past.   Not sure what the issue is about Monopoly updated cards. 

Agreed -- this looks totally unrelated to matters of wokeness.

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15 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Are any for CC or Chance cards that "iffy"?   Maybe I don't play Monopoly enough and I am missing something.  

"Go to Jail" 
"Pay a Poor Tax" 
"You Won 2nd Prize in a Beauty Contest" 

guessing Oriental Ave could get a new name as well. 

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25 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Are any for CC or Chance cards that "iffy"?   Maybe I don't play Monopoly enough and I am missing something.  

You’re missing the big picture here.  Monopoly as a whole indoctrinates our youth into the evils of capitalism.  Therefore, its entire existence is clearly problematic and must obviously be cancelled

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15 minutes ago, Ted Lange as your Bartender said:

 

You’re missing the big picture here.  Monopoly as a whole indoctrinates our youth into the evils of capitalism.  Therefore, its entire existence is clearly problematic and must obviously be cancelled

Introducing the new Monopoly where everybody has equal amount of money, and has to share their properties?  ;) 

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And the height of "woke" culture. Transphobia now covers those that don't take transpersons "word for it," which I predicted would happen in the main forum five years ago.

tim disagreed with me of course. Or said he couldn't understand what it was all about so that it didn't matter, really. "Give them what they want," he said, quite literally. He didn't even know that they were coming for bathrooms yet as part of the main civil rights platform. It shows you how in-depth tim knows this "woke" issue. They're circling on their own again, this time regarding a trans-friendly youth writer who made the mistake of debunking a study and then said that some trans children will desist their desire to change if not given puberty blockers two years ago in the Atlantic. He is now the height of a transphobe.

It was always coming to this, folks. Always. Never let them tell you the culture war can't get any stupider or more radical. The more we cave, the more it does. The more you will be punished for normal thoughts. The more the far right rises in sympathy in our country for being the only entity willing to hold the line on these people. Hold the line now as neo-liberals or all is lost.

https://quillette.com/2021/03/18/the-campaign-of-lies-against-journalist-jesse-singal-and-why-it-matters/

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1 hour ago, Quint said:

"Go to Jail" 
"Pay a Poor Tax" 
"You Won 2nd Prize in a Beauty Contest" 

guessing Oriental Ave could get a new name as well. 

lol oof

 

49 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Introducing the new Monopoly where everybody has equal amount of money, and has to share their properties?  ;) 

just like in real life that sounds so enticing!

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11 hours ago, rockaction said:

And the height of "woke" culture. Transphobia now covers those that don't take transpersons "word for it," which I predicted would happen in the main forum five years ago.

tim disagreed with me of course. Or said he couldn't understand what it was all about so that it didn't matter, really. "Give them what they want," he said, quite literally. He didn't even know that they were coming for bathrooms yet as part of the main civil rights platform. It shows you how in-depth tim knows this "woke" issue. They're circling on their own again, this time regarding a trans-friendly youth writer who made the mistake of debunking a study and then said that some trans children will desist their desire to change if not given puberty blockers two years ago in the Atlantic. He is now the height of a transphobe.

It was always coming to this, folks. Always. Never let them tell you the culture war can't get any stupider or more radical. The more we cave, the more it does. The more you will be punished for normal thoughts. The more the far right rises in sympathy in our country for being the only entity willing to hold the line on these people. Hold the line now as neo-liberals or all is lost.

https://quillette.com/2021/03/18/the-campaign-of-lies-against-journalist-jesse-singal-and-why-it-matters/

Saw dan savage was trending last night. Was wondering if that was the savage love guy from the onion. So i looked. He was trending because he stood up for Singal and was catching the mob. 

Another example of this stupidity...

David Fisman, a professor of public health, harvard educated, on canadian covid advisory panel,  caught heat for tweeting out that he felt the idea of Covid accidentally being created in a lab warrants further discussion. 

Now you would think he caught heat because that is a controversial topic. Nope. He caught heat because a "transphobic" author had written a piece in the US that said the same thing and that by him saying this he was amplifying her. He has never heard of said author but he apologized to the mob anyway. 

 

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12 hours ago, rockaction said:

And the height of "woke" culture. Transphobia now covers those that don't take transpersons "word for it," which I predicted would happen in the main forum five years ago.

tim disagreed with me of course. Or said he couldn't understand what it was all about so that it didn't matter, really. "Give them what they want," he said, quite literally. He didn't even know that they were coming for bathrooms yet as part of the main civil rights platform. It shows you how in-depth tim knows this "woke" issue. They're circling on their own again, this time regarding a trans-friendly youth writer who made the mistake of debunking a study and then said that some trans children will desist their desire to change if not given puberty blockers two years ago in the Atlantic. He is now the height of a transphobe.

It was always coming to this, folks. Always. Never let them tell you the culture war can't get any stupider or more radical. The more we cave, the more it does. The more you will be punished for normal thoughts. The more the far right rises in sympathy in our country for being the only entity willing to hold the line on these people. Hold the line now as neo-liberals or all is lost.

https://quillette.com/2021/03/18/the-campaign-of-lies-against-journalist-jesse-singal-and-why-it-matters/

I'm very familiar with Jesse Singal, and of course I agree with your take here.

There's also another angle to this story, and that's the "believe women" narrative.  My general rule of thumb is that people don't get just randomly accused of bad behavior.  If one massage therapist accuses Deshaun Watson of harassment, I try to keep an open mind and look for explanations that involve an honest misunderstanding, misrecollection, or something like that.  When a bunch of separate massage therapists all accuse Watson of harassment, I feel pretty safe in assuming that he likes to harass women.  It's pretty unlikely that all these accusations are the result of honest error, and there's basically no way that they're made up.  Therefore they're probably true.

Except that in Singal's case, you actually do have people accusing him of misconduct and those accusations actually have been completely made up out of thin air.  And they're motivated very openly by a desire to ruin a person who the accuser doesn't know, because they see it as a higher ideological cause.  As recently as a couple of years ago, I never seriously entertained the idea that a significant number of people were that evil.  Obviously I knew that such a thing was theoretically possible, but I figured it would be really rare and that anybody who got caught pulling this kind of thing would be drummed out of polite society.  I was wrong about that.

This is kind of a cross-over topic, but I thought Brett Kavanaugh's nomination should be withdrawn and I posted as much at the time.  I don't think I would take that same position today.  Looking back now, I think I was too credulous of a very weak accusation that was made in a highly-charged political climate, and I assigned too much weight to "supporting" accusations that turned out to be groundless.  (I mention this mainly because I think it's good practice to acknowledge it when you change your mind about something, and to understand why you changed your mind the way you did).

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14 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I'm very familiar with Jesse Singal, and of course I agree with your take here.

There's also another angle to this story, and that's the "believe women" narrative.  My general rule of thumb is that people don't get just randomly accused of bad behavior.  If one massage therapist accuses Deshaun Watson of harassment, I try to keep an open mind and look for explanations that involve an honest misunderstanding, misrecollection, or something like that.  When a bunch of separate massage therapists all accuse Watson of harassment, I feel pretty safe in assuming that he likes to harass women.  It's pretty unlikely that all these accusations are the result of honest error, and there's basically no way that they're made up.  Therefore they're probably true.

Except that in Singal's case, you actually do have people accusing him of misconduct and those accusations actually have been completely made up out of thin air.  And they're motivated very openly by a desire to ruin a person who the accuser doesn't know, because they see it as a higher ideological cause.  As recently as a couple of years ago, I never seriously entertained the idea that a significant number of people were that evil.  Obviously I knew that such a thing was theoretically possible, but I figured it would be really rare and that anybody who got caught pulling this kind of thing would be drummed out of polite society.  I was wrong about that.

This is kind of a cross-over topic, but I thought Brett Kavanaugh's nomination should be withdrawn and I posted as much at the time.  I don't think I would take that same position today.  Looking back now, I think I was too credulous of a very weak accusation that was made in a highly-charged political climate, and I assigned too much weight to "supporting" accusations that turned out to be groundless.  (I mention this mainly because I think it's good practice to acknowledge it when you change your mind about something, and to understand why you changed your mind the way you did).

Great posting and at the same time an incredibly sad one.

You can't believe what people say and that's terrible.  What it amounts to is what does the person have to gain by saying what they are saying...and in todays world political capital/gain is worth more to some people than gold.

It not only is worth more than the relative harm done to a person based on a lie (in Kavanaugh's case the harm done to him may be small relative to the greater good of him not approved)...in some cases the harm done to the individual is the gold (Singal).

This same logic has many parallels with how race related incidents, particularly with the police are characterized.  Truth is the victim as part of the the greater good of showing how bad police are.

Outside of blackmail I'm not sure what Deshaun Watson's accusers have to gain, so I would tend to believe them more but the whole applying of this logic is distasteful.

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16 hours ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

So a company can cancel itself now? I mean, was anyone even complaining about this Monopoly issue? From reading the article, it seems like they internally evaluated that switching up some of the pieces made sense so they went ahead and did that. The article also mentions they switched up their playing pieces in both 2013 and 2017 so seems kind of absurd to pin this one on cancel culture, especially when it doesn't even sound like anyone got cancelled?

Well, this law school Dean is canceling herself, so sure?

https://nypost.com/2021/03/20/cuny-law-school-dean-cancels-herself-after-slaveholder-comment/

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7 minutes ago, John123 said:

So the punishment for cancelling herself is... retirement?

There’s definitely been some legitimate examples posted in this thread but I think someone else said it earlier, seems like a lot of people are just looking for something to get angry about.

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9 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

So the punishment for cancelling herself is... retirement?

There’s definitely been some legitimate examples posted in this thread but I think someone else said it earlier, seems like a lot of people are just looking for something to get angry about.

Well, my post was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek.  If you think I'm "angry" about it you need to get better at reading a room.  But if you read her comments, she's traumatized by her own words to the point of feeling the need to step down from the position.  So yes, she is technically canceling herself.  She never would have stepped down for such a stupid reason 10 years ago. 

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50 minutes ago, John123 said:

Well, my post was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek.  If you think I'm "angry" about it you need to get better at reading a room.  But if you read her comments, she's traumatized by her own words to the point of feeling the need to step down from the position.  So yes, she is technically canceling herself.  She never would have stepped down for such a stupid reason 10 years ago. 

Even if you were just trying to joke around, the NYP included ‘cancels’ in their headline for a reason. Pretty clear that they’re leveraging ‘cancel’ to get more clicks and a stronger reaction, very similar to how the left wing media has been doing with ‘racism’ and ‘white supremicists’.

Maybe I just have too narrow of a definition of cancel culture but I always thought the frustration stemmed from the woke mob getting people fired. People are now showing their examples of cancel culture that appear to haven’t even gotten pressure from the mob and were decisions solely made by the person/company because they thought that was the right thing to do. To me, that’s completely different than someone getting fired  because they tweeted something racist when they were in high school.

To your last point, someone realizing what they said was ignorant, wanting to learn and become a better person from it is fantastic and exactly the attitude people should have in situations like this. Now I don’t think she necessarily had to step down either but it appears that was 100% her choice and it’s not like she needs another job if she’s retiring.

Edited by Bucsfan5493
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51 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If you read the article, you'll see that she volunteered for therapy and reeducation.  So there's also that.

Read the article and very well aware of that. As I mentioned in my last post, I certainly wouldn’t consider that a punishment. Someone realizing what they said was ignorant, wanting to learn from it and taking action to do so is fantastic and exactly the attitude people should have in situations like this.

Edited by Bucsfan5493
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6 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Read the article and very well aware of that. As I mentioned in my last post, I certainly wouldn’t consider that a punishment. Someone realizing what they said was ignorant, wanting to learn from it and taking action to do so is fantastic and exactly the attitude people should have in situations like this.

This is question-begging.

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I mean, "I said something that may have been kind of tin-eared, possibly, so obviously the right thing for me to do is to check myself into therapy" is not the thought pattern of a normal, well-adjusted adult living in a healthy culture.  Obviously we can debate exactly where things are going wrong here.  For all I know the dean in question is just an over-dramatic nut.  I've known people like that.

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

When a bunch of separate massage therapists all accuse Watson of harassment, I feel pretty safe in assuming that he likes to harass women.  It's pretty unlikely that all these accusations are the result of honest error, and there's basically no way that they're made up.  Therefore they're probably true.

 

Except that in Singal's case, you actually do have people accusing him of misconduct and those accusations actually have been completely made up out of thin air.  And they're motivated very openly by a desire to ruin a person who the accuser doesn't know, because they see it as a higher ideological cause.  As recently as a couple of years ago, I never seriously entertained the idea that a significant number of people were that evil.  Obviously I knew that such a thing was theoretically possible, but I figured it would be really rare and that anybody who got caught pulling this kind of thing would be drummed out of polite society.  I was wrong about that.

IK, I've seen it before and it doesn't even have to happen for a higher ideological cause. It can just be out of spite, misunderstanding, money, borderline hysteria, or some other unkwown reason. The depths -- or active participation -- that people will sink to in order not to interrupt a proper stoning or shaming is remarkable.

I get you're taking a different angle to the story than simply "woke mob coming," and instead are concentrating on how the woke mob is coming, which is, coincidentally, entirely in keeping with the whole deal of ruination by accusation. There's not a shred of his transphobia nor sexual malfeasance being offered as evidence in any way, and it's quite disgusting.  

And I don't even care if he is transphobic by their definition. They're setting the definition of the debate and deciding how they'll punish outliers to it. It's gross and sick, and a perfect microcosm of "woke" gone awry.

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