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Cherokee Nation asks Jeep to stop using its name.


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47 minutes ago, Yenrub said:

Here is a story from last week with Cherokee leader talking about helping the elders through the winder storms

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-winter-storms-2021/2021/02/17/968870037/as-oklahoma-endures-winter-storm-cherokee-nation-scrambles-to-help-elders

Thsys good to know.  I honestly didn't hear boo from him until this thing

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I'd probably lean towards the ones whose ancestors had their land essentially stolen/taken by force and some of their women and children were sexually trafficked.  But hey, I get it - it's super

It’s probably is time for a re-branding.    is Canyonero trademarked? 

White dudes outraged about Indians pressuring Jeep to change the name of one of their models?  I can’t imagine how some of you would handle the injustices and inequities other groups experience on a r

2 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

They are well within their right to use the name.  It’s not copyrighted.  Obviously their marketing people determined the name evoked positive images (freedom, nature! that they wanted associated with their brand.

And if the marketing people determine (today, tomorrow, three years from now) that due to changing attitudes within their customer base the name is actually creating a negative connotation for their brand, they should...?

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1 minute ago, ekbeats said:

They are well within their right to use the name.  It’s not copyrighted.  Obviously their marketing people determined the name evoked positive images (freedom, nature! that they wanted associated with their brand.

I'm not that well versed in IP law, but I'm not so sure it's as simple as the bold. I believe there's still some protections afforded to an identifiable individual's or group's image and likeness. 

 

But, again though, whether something is lawful doesn't always mean it should be done. For example, I can lawfully cheat on my wife but that doesn't mean she shouldn't have hurt feeling because of it, shouldn't ask me to stop, etc.

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4 minutes ago, Zow said:

I just don't see it as that complicated. If an immutable group of people - especially one with a relatively fresh/recent history of being discriminated against (e.g. slavery, were conquered, etc.) - asks that its name not be used then change it. If the group doesn't request it, then use away at your own discretion. I think this especially applies when 1) the name user isn't a member of or otherwise associated with the group; and 2) and identifiable head/leader of the group is clear. 

I have a buddy who vehemently disagrees with this "PC culture" and the "wussification of America" that he says this falls under. His primary argument is that his "group" (he's very Irish) was discriminated against but he doesn't complain about the use of "Fighting Irish" so other groups shouldn't complain either. 

I genuinely just don't think it's that hard to not appropriate an immutable group's name if they ask you not to or to stop. Just seems like the human thing to do. 

I agree in general but it is very costly to stop, brand has value and some have a lot of value 

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9 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

They are well within their right to use the name.  It’s not copyrighted.  Obviously their marketing people determined the name evoked positive images (freedom, nature! that they wanted associated with their brand.  Can you answer my question now?

It would be a trademark, not a copyright.   Plenty of tribal names are registered trademarks, plus you can hold a trademark through use even without registration.   IIRC, there's also a specific protection for Native American goods and artifacts.

The question is whether the use of the Jeep Cherokee name may cause any confusion to consumers.  That seems like it may be a reach, unless the tribal nation is manufacturing some kind of car related goods.

Regardless, I doubt they would be suing Fiat/Chrysler to make them stop using the name.   All they need to do is to start a publicity campaign and make them look bad.   

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5 minutes ago, Zow said:

I'm not that well versed in IP law, but I'm not so sure it's as simple as the bold. I believe there's still some protections afforded to an identifiable individual's or group's image and likeness. 

 

But, again though, whether something is lawful doesn't always mean it should be done. For example, I can lawfully cheat on my wife but that doesn't mean she shouldn't have hurt feeling because of it, shouldn't ask me to stop, etc.

Im sure Jeep will change the name.

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I think we should remove all Native American names and statues from all public and federal lands, companies, sports, etc etc. After all, they committed mass atrocities such as murder and rape. Conquered other tribes. Stole lands of other conquered Native tribes. Owned African American slaves as well as Native Americans ones. I think due to their past atrocities we should review allowing them to have reservations. Let's get real woke! Why do we give their past misdeeds a pass?

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53 minutes ago, crackattack said:

I think we should remove all Native American names and statues from all public and federal lands, companies, sports, etc etc. After all, they committed mass atrocities such as murder and rape. Conquered other tribes. Stole lands of other conquered Native tribes. Owned African American slaves as well as Native Americans ones. I think due to their past atrocities we should review allowing them to have reservations. Let's get real woke! Why do we give their past misdeeds a pass?

I disagree.  

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1 hour ago, Zow said:

I just don't see it as that complicated.

No, you clearly don't. That's a nice test. Good job. You get a B.

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9 minutes ago, rockaction said:

No, you clearly don't. That's a nice test. Good job. You get a B.

Wtf

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13 minutes ago, Zow said:

Wtf

You don't see it as complicated and provided the test by which someone might test your thesis.

Sounded like a legal, two-pronged test that the Supreme Court will lay down in case law. I gave it a B. Not bad.

I see it as more complicated than that.

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1 minute ago, Gr00vus said:

Rebrand as the Jeep Cher. What could go wrong?

Nothing other than seventy year-olds in weird outfits doing the Tawny Kitaen on your hood, uttering political nonsense?*

*Like Cher is wont to do. I'm getting misunderstood here the past few comments.

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Just now, rockaction said:

Nothing other than seventy year-olds in weird outfits doing the Tawny Kitaen on your hood, uttering political nonsense?

I'm not seeing the downside here.

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White dudes outraged about Indians pressuring Jeep to change the name of one of their models?  I can’t imagine how some of you would handle the injustices and inequities other groups experience on a regular basis if stuff like this triggers you. 

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1 minute ago, tommyGunZ said:

White dudes outraged about Indians pressuring Jeep to change the name of one of their models?  I can’t imagine how some of you would handle the injustices and inequities other groups experience on a regular basis if stuff like this triggers you. 

I haven't heard one outraged person in here yet. You're definitely ascribing intent and tone to people.

I personally specifically said "meh." I think others feel the same way. But you just pump up that fake outrage machine so you can be sanctimonious in return. It's a fun role.

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7 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Nothing other than seventy year-olds in weird outfits doing the Tawny Kitaen on your hood, uttering political nonsense?*

*Like Cher is wont to do. I'm getting misunderstood here the past few comments.

If you could turn back time....

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11 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I haven't heard one outraged person in here yet. You're definitely ascribing intent and tone to people.

I personally specifically said "meh." I think others feel the same way. But you just pump up that fake outrage machine so you can be sanctimonious in return. It's a fun role.

This

Every time. It’s weak 

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1 minute ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

This

Every time. It’s weak 

This sauce...very weak. Effectively tarnish those enemies with wide and fake brush bristles.

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Just now, FairWarning said:

So the Jeep Cherokee has been around since 1974 and we now hear about them being offended?  

Redskins name for the Washington team was around since 1933 but we didn't heard complaints from Native Americans until the 60s.

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1 minute ago, squistion said:

Redskins name for the Washington team was around since 1933 but we didn't heard complaints from Native Americans until the 60s.

So it wasn't offensive to the Cherokee tribe until just the last month or so?  I don't care if they keep it or not, just seems odd that after this amount of time out of the blue they want it gone.  Someone posted that they probably end up donating money to one of their causes, that would be a good move IMO.  

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8 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

So it wasn't offensive to the Cherokee tribe until just the last month or so?  I don't care if they keep it or not, just seems odd that after this amount of time out of the blue they want it gone.  Someone posted that they probably end up donating money to one of their causes, that would be a good move IMO.  

Like the Redskins name wasn't offensive to Native Americans until the 60s? Just because there are no complaints aired to the media, does not mean that Native Americans of Cherokee descent did not find it offensive until the last month.

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5 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

So it wasn't offensive to the Cherokee tribe until just the last month or so?  I don't care if they keep it or not, just seems odd that after this amount of time out of the blue they want it gone.  Someone posted that they probably end up donating money to one of their causes, that would be a good move IMO.  

How do you know it wasn’t offensive to the Cherokee tribe until the last month or so? It’s possible that the issue has been raised previously but didn’t get any coverage. Or perhaps it was offensive but they chose not to pick a fight over it previously. 

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1 minute ago, bigbottom said:

How do you know it wasn’t offensive to the Cherokee tribe until the last month or so? It’s possible that the issue has been raised previously but didn’t get any coverage. Or perhaps it was offensive but they chose not to pick a fight over it previously. 

Maybe it has, but wouldn't the media be all over it if so?  

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11 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Maybe it has, but wouldn't the media be all over it if so?  

Not necessarily. Perhaps it was raised directly with Jeep and not in the press.  Or perhaps it was expressed by individuals rather than national tribe leadership and this went without attention. I don’t know. But I think it’s sort of arbitrary to dismiss or criticize a point simply because it either hasn’t been made previously or has been made previously but not publicized. And then there is the other possibility I mentioned - that tribe members found it offensive but chose not to pick a fight previously. 

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20 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

So it wasn't offensive to the Cherokee tribe until just the last month or so?  I don't care if they keep it or not, just seems odd that after this amount of time out of the blue they want it gone.  Someone posted that they probably end up donating money to one of their causes, that would be a good move IMO.  

Who says it wasn't? These things bubble up slowly and now we are getting to the point where more and more people are willing to speak up about stuff like this (maybe too much so).  I don't think it's really that weird that people might not have felt comfortable bringing up stuff like this 20 years ago.   

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3 hours ago, ekbeats said:

They are well within their right to use the name.  It’s not copyrighted.  Obviously their marketing people determined the name evoked positive images (freedom, nature! that they wanted associated with their brand.  Can you answer my question now?

Oh they are? Are they Cherokee? Who gave them the right to use it, especially with a subpar brand of vehicle? 

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1 minute ago, Kal El said:

Oh they are? Are they Cherokee? Who gave them the right to use it, especially with a subpar brand of vehicle? 

Cherokees don’t have exclusive rights to their name.  As I said above Jeep will likely cave and retire the name.  And if they’re smart they’ll use this as an opportunity to do some good and make a donation to help the Cherokee Nation.

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3 hours ago, the rover said:

It would be a trademark, not a copyright. 

It's TM law, and it's why it's more complicated than just changing a name. A lot of people associate the name with the Jeep brand and the cost to the company to re-brand and re-introduce a new name that has the same level of customer awareness is top primo dollar. That's why corporations and entities fight this sort of thing. Jeep Grand Cherokee®, etc., etc.

If I know it, it's in the public consciousness because of repetitiveness. There's an actual accounting price on goodwill and name branding. Again, not so simple to just change a name. That's why Woz got a B and not an A, by the way.

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2 hours ago, tommyGunZ said:

White dudes outraged about Indians pressuring Jeep to change the name of one of their models?  I can’t imagine how some of you would handle the injustices and inequities other groups experience on a regular basis if stuff like this triggers you. 

Pointing out dumb stuff isnt outrage.  

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2 hours ago, rockaction said:

I haven't heard one outraged person in here yet. You're definitely ascribing intent and tone to people.

I personally specifically said "meh." I think others feel the same way. But you just pump up that fake outrage machine so you can be sanctimonious in return. It's a fun role.

Nailed this one.  Totally predictable at this point

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41 minutes ago, rockaction said:

It's TM law, and it's why it's more complicated than just changing a name. A lot of people associate the name with the Jeep brand and the cost to the company to re-brand and re-introduce a new name that has the same level of customer awareness is top primo dollar. That's why corporations and entities fight this sort of thing. Jeep Grand Cherokee®, etc., etc.

If I know it, it's in the public consciousness because of repetitiveness. There's an actual accounting price on goodwill and name branding. Again, not so simple to just change a name. That's why Woz got a B and not an A, by the way.

I’ve always found it interesting that luxury brands use hard to remember numbers and letters (Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti), while non-luxury brands use model names (Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc.).

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6 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I’ve always found it interesting that luxury brands use hard to remember numbers and letters (Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti), while non-luxury brands use model names (Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc.).

That's something I never thought about before and never would have thought of. But maybe Mercedes lets us know. The numbers and letters confer different things to different people. The branding, and their logo, signals to those that know really nothing about Mercedes a status in just having a Mercedes. But consider the "C" class: to the Mercedes owner, who has shopped for cars, it signals their base model, one that people driving higher-end Nissans and Hondas could probably afford. Within the Mercedes-owning world, there is always those that know what exact model you're driving (unless customized) and in what range you've spent. That's what the discerning status-lover knows, too. "Oh, you're only driving a C class. Check out my [whatever is the next model]"

Perhaps the name/number distinction is one of memory and ease. Regardless, it's all really, really sort of sad, branding and goodwill and status and the like. Depresses me. I get the need for trademarks to clue consumers into origin, source, and quality. But for status and that kind of stuff? Even if I were flush with wealth, I think I'd want to drop out of it all. Or I'd just pull in with a Bugatti and scream it to the world like Future and Ace Hood. We need more nouveau riche unafraid of being nouveau riche. It's almost charming.

I just pulled in with a Bugatti
Uh, I just pulled in with a Bugatti

Anyway, I digressed.

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3 hours ago, FairWarning said:

Maybe it has, but wouldn't the media be all over it if so?  

Per Da Guru from earlier in the thread 

Quote

The whole story was initiated by Car and Driver.  The Cherokee Nation did not reach out to anyone.  Car and Driver reached out to them out of the blue and asked Tribe leader Chuck Hoskin if he felt the Jeep name was offensive to the tribe as they wanted a story.

 

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14 hours ago, Zow said:

I'd probably lean towards the ones whose ancestors had their land essentially stolen/taken by force and some of their women and children were sexually trafficked. 

But hey, I get it - it's super cool to drive a SUV with "Cherokee" written on it!

ironically, native American's "acquired" their land by force and stealing other tribes women and children 

but hey, isn't that really how every civilization acquired its lands/borders?  someone conquered someone else, and took what was once held by someone else and made it their own

 

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5 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

ironically, native American's "acquired" their land by force and stealing other tribes women and children 

but hey, isn't that really how every civilization acquired its lands/borders?  someone conquered someone else, and took what was once held by someone else and made it their own

 

This is true and applies to many of our controversial topics today.  The "bad guys" today really the last men standing in an uncivilized game that every society/country/tribe played.  But again, now we want to be civilized and if we desire to move forward with everyone that is here (which we do) that means we probably shouldn't poke them in the eye and wear their heritage as cheap marketing gimmicks.

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18 hours ago, the rover said:

It would be a trademark, not a copyright.   Plenty of tribal names are registered trademarks, plus you can hold a trademark through use even without registration.   IIRC, there's also a specific protection for Native American goods and artifacts.

The question is whether the use of the Jeep Cherokee name may cause any confusion to consumers.  That seems like it may be a reach, unless the tribal nation is manufacturing some kind of car related goods.

Regardless, I doubt they would be suing Fiat/Chrysler to make them stop using the name.   All they need to do is to start a publicity campaign and make them look bad.   

Stellantis just merged FCA in January and they are based in Amsterdam. So there probably won`t be any changes for at least 2 years as the comapny is reorganizing and 2022 product is already in development.  Talked to a marketing guy yesterday and he heard no name change is in the works or even being discussed at this time and it could take years.  Another solution he said is that Jeep sells 250K Cherokees a year in the USA alone.   So if they donated 50 dollars per vehicle sale that would be a $12,500,000 donation to help people who are in desperate need.  Turn it into a win..win for both.

Edited by Da Guru
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One of the saddest things I’ve ever seen was an Indian reservation as I was driving to the Grand Canyon.  The squalor- juxtaposed against such a beautiful landscape - was breathtaking.  Brought a tear to my eye.

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Here's a win-win situation: Jeep announces that a % brought in from every Cherokee bought will go to the Cherokee nation. Jeep looks good for reaching out to the Cherokee Nation (plus maybe even guilt a few more people to buying one) and the Cherokees get free money. Also, maybe they could offer a discount to every Cherokee who buys one.

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1 hour ago, ekbeats said:

One of the saddest things I’ve ever seen was an Indian reservation as I was driving to the Grand Canyon.  The squalor- juxtaposed against such a beautiful landscape - was breathtaking.  Brought a tear to my eye.

Which reservation did you drive through? 

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18 hours ago, ekbeats said:

Im sure Jeep will change the name.

Frankly, this seems like a decent PR opportunity for Jeep. If I were them I'd reach out to the Cherokee tribe/chief and try to create a dialog about how to better the situation. I'd offer a donation and/or a small percentage of sales during a transition period (maybe a couple of years) where the name continues to be used but ads are displayed in favor to the history of the tribe.  In doing so this could very well buy them time needed to make re-branding more cost-effective and give some good, free publicity to Jeep. 

 

But yeah maybe this is just way more complicated than being a human being about it. 

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9 minutes ago, Charlie Steiner said:

Here's a win-win situation: Jeep announces that a % brought in from every Cherokee bought will go to the Cherokee nation. Jeep looks good for reaching out to the Cherokee Nation (plus maybe even guilt a few more people to buying one) and the Cherokees get free money. Also, maybe they could offer a discount to every Cherokee who buys one.

You stole my post. 

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