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Toward An Immigration Policy, Considered As Former Refugees and Immigrants, Also As Citizens and Voters (1 Viewer)

rockaction

rockaction

Footballguy
The latest go round with detention centers and facilities ("cages," if this were President Trump) has got me thinking as I lay down. Well, actually the thought of political refugees and utter poverty does. Everyone, it seems, in their better moments wants to alleviate political strife and abject poverty. But what sort of immigration policy would best suit everybody considered? It seems to me that both sides only consider one avenue. There are, on one hand, open borders people (imagine a sliding scale) and on the other hand, those that would restrict immigration to some degree.

Whether it is the refugee or immigrant coming in, or whether it is the voter and citizen upon whom financial and social claims are made, I would just like to maybe -- maybe -- re-frame the issue here. What does our better self demand of us, and what can we rightfully refuse as claims made upon us? Just looking for something maybe a little more out of the box than what we normally see. I'd personally love to see where both the teachings of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam leave us on the issue, and where the duty and obligation under respect for the citizen -- mainly Greek and Roman -- also leave us. Are we left, under Christ, with borders at all? Are we left, as citizens already, with a duty to our fellow recognized citizens, that we may not allow a mass influx for fear of drain on both resources and homogeneity? Or are these both moot, and are completely open borders a win-win? What are your premises, and what is your conclusion from those premises?

What does everybody think the calculus should be and why? Any articles, teachings, lectures, scripture are welcome to help us better our knowledge about the subject.

 
Romans 13:1–7

Submission to Governing Authorities

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities,p for there is no authority except that which God has established.q The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted,r and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.s 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.t 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.u

6 This is also why you pay taxes,v for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes;w if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 
ekbeats said:
Romans 13:1–7

Submission to Governing Authorities

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities,p for there is no authority except that which God has established.
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Sounds like the justification for the Divine Right Of Kings right there. Interesting. Noted.

 
I'm more fond of this scripture

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 
rockaction said:
The latest go round with detention centers and facilities ("cages," if this were President Trump) has got me thinking as I lay down. Well, actually the thought of political refugees and utter poverty does. Everyone, it seems, in their better moments wants to alleviate political strife and abject poverty. But what sort of immigration policy would best suit everybody considered? It seems to me that both sides only consider one avenue. There are, on one hand, open borders people (imagine a sliding scale) and on the other hand, those that would restrict immigration to some degree.

Whether it is the refugee or immigrant coming in, or whether it is the voter and citizen upon whom financial and social claims are made, I would just like to maybe -- maybe -- re-frame the issue here. What does our better self demand of us, and what can we rightfully refuse as claims made upon us? Just looking for something maybe a little more out of the box than what we normally see. I'd personally love to see where both the teachings of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam leave us on the issue, and where the duty and obligation under respect for the citizen -- mainly Greek and Roman -- also leave us. Are we left, under Christ, with borders at all? Are we left, as citizens already, with a duty to our fellow recognized citizens, that we may not allow a mass influx for fear of drain on both resources and homogeneity? Or are these both moot, and are completely open borders a win-win? What are your premises, and what is your conclusion from those premises?

What does everybody think the calculus should be and why? Any articles, teachings, lectures, scripture are welcome to help us better our knowledge about the subject.
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I think there's a decent argument around needing to fix our current situation for our own citizens to then better help non citizens.  The problem is that we can't agree on things to do to fix that so it just shifts the argument once it's about non-citizens.  If you ask me, the number one thing we could do to help many areas is to fix income inequality which most likely begins with things like BIG, minimum wage increases and taxing the #### out of the wealthy.  Unpopular policies with many.

 
rockaction said:
But what sort of immigration policy would best suit everybody considered? It seems to me that both sides only consider one avenue.
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what immigration policies do we have right now ?

Millions are allowed to come into the USA and live in our amazing country every year through visa's etc right? We allow millions to come here legally through immigration right ?

whatever laws we have on immigration NEED TO BE ENFORCED - unless that happens, it doesn't matter what laws are in place does it ?

 
AAABatteries said:
I think there's a decent argument around needing to fix our current situation for our own citizens to then better help non citizens.  The problem is that we can't agree on things to do to fix that so it just shifts the argument once it's about non-citizens.  If you ask me, the number one thing we could do to help many areas is to fix income inequality which most likely begins with things like BIG, minimum wage increases and taxing the #### out of the wealthy.  Unpopular policies with many.
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Many of my customers said they will either shorten hours or close/sell if minimum wage goes to $15/hour.  

 
rockaction said:
Sounds like the justification for the Divine Right Of Kings right there. Interesting. Noted.
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It should also be mentioned that there are several Bible passages warning rulers against abusing their power. Psalm 108, I think, is one such passage, as is the end of Psalm 2.

 
Rich Conway said:
I'm unclear why an exact count really matters.
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We regulate immigration today, and the number of illegals in he country is a measure of how effective / ineffective our policies are.  And if we are talking about granting amnesty and citizenship to these folks it will have all sorts of financial, legal and political impacts.  You don’t think it’s important to operate from a fact base on something that would affect the country so dramatically?

 
What are we to do ethically and morally when people are sending their children alone to our borders?

How on earth do we handle this as a beacon of light for the rest of the world to follow?

 
3 million workers are missing amid the labor shortage, and 2 million of them are immigrants who never came to the US because of Trump-era policies

  • The US would have about 2 million more workers if not for Trump-era policies, Insider estimates.
  • Immigrant workers typically fuel the industries that are experiencing worker shortages.
  • The ongoing shortage of workers is causing problems for both businesses and consumers.
American businesses are feeling the impact of labor shortages as they struggle to hire amid a record-high wave of people quitting — and Trump-era immigration policies could be largely to blame.

Roughly 3 million fewer people in the US are working or looking for work than in February 2020, as measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics labor-force participation rate. That's the labor shortage in a nutshell.

But what if we told you the problem might have been reduced to just a third of its size by going back to a pre-Trump legal regime?

The dearth of workers is mirrored by the number of working-age adults who would have lived in the US if pre-Trump immigration trends persisted, according to 2020 US Census data.

President Donald Trump's administration was more restrictive to immigration than any other in recent history, making good on Trump's rhetoric antagonizing not just illegal immigration but often immigrants of color, specifically Latinos. According to the Migration Policy Institute, the Trump administration undertook more than 400 executive actions on immigration.

We estimate that in all, about 2 million of America's missing workers are immigrants who never came to the US.

The Census Bureau estimates that about 1.07 million people immigrated on net to the US in 2016, while only about 480,000 people immigrated in 2020.

From 2011 to 2016, the US was gaining an additional 54,000 net immigrants each year. But that began to turn around, with net international migration declining each year from 2017 to 2020. If the early-decade trend had instead continued, the US would have added about 2.1 million immigrants over those four years

Trump-era policies are responsible for the missing workers

As it turns out, many of the industries facing labor shortages — truck drivers and construction workers, namely — appear to be the same ones that would've most benefited from immigrant workers had Trump-era policies not prevented them from entering the US.

Construction; transportation and warehousing; accommodation and hospitality businesses; and personal-service businesses like salons and dry cleaners are the industries facing the worst labor shortages, the pro-immigration think tank New American Economy found last month for a Vox investigation.

All four industries saw increases in job postings of more than 65% from 2019 to 2021, when comparing the period between May to July for those two years. Immigrants make up more than a fifth of the workforce in those industries.

Immigrant workers account for about a quarter of the construction workforce as well, the National Association of Home Builders reported in March. That share is even higher when it comes to construction tradesmen, and is as much as 40% in states like California and Texas. These numbers would be even higher if they accounted for construction workers hired informally.

The National Foundation for American Policy projected last year that Trump administration policies reduced legal immigration by about 49% during Trump's time in office. They also projected that average annual labor-force growth would be about 59% lower as a result of the policies.

Trump issued more than 40 immigration-policy changes after the onset of the coronavirus pandemic, limiting legal roads to immigration and tightening rules for unauthorized immigration.

He also barred asylum seekers last March, for example, reimplementing the policy and eventually extending it indefinitely. Similarly, he indefinitely postponed hearings for immigrants returned to Mexico under the Migrant Protection Protocols.

2021 continues to chart record numbers of workers quitting. Roughly 4.4 million people, about 3% of workers, voluntarily left their jobs in September, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics' most recent survey. That's up from 4.3 million in August and 4 million in July. These are the largest mass resignations the US has seen in the two decades since the government started documenting them.

This labor shortage has been affecting American consumers as well, causing supply-chain issues and greater price inflation, which recently hit a 30-year high in the US.

"When you don't have the truck drivers and we don't have the people that are working in construction, then economics says prices are going to go up," Julie Palmer, a human-resource professor at Webster University, told KSDK News on Monday.
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I'll trade the extra IRS agents for a team of lawyers and judges to process applications for background checks, visas, and green cards at the border.  Bump H1B limits and lets get some more tax payers here.  

 
Nugget said:
3 million workers are missing amid the labor shortage, and 2 million of them are immigrants who never came to the US because of Trump-era policies

I'll trade the extra IRS agents for a team of lawyers and judges to process applications for background checks, visas, and green cards at the border.  Bump H1B limits and lets get some more tax payers here.  
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Slumping global birth rates are gonna make immigration an even more explosive issue in a couple of decades. When labor shortages become dire and the primary supply of new workers is sub-Saharan Africa, cultural clashes are gonna dwarf current ones.

 
It's a good question in a very complicated world.  

These are just my thoughts but I'm a believer that there is a limit to immigration especially when some countries are just so big and producing gratuitous population growth.  I don't think we need more workers I think we need to work differently and have different expectations.  

For me I would like to see limited true refugees every year from places that are war torn or in situations where their lives are clearly at risk.  Otherwise I would like to see us spend more money on helping people stay where they are and build a better society in their own country.  Sometimes I know that is very complicated but I'm not paid to figure out how that would work so I'm leaving it there :)

 
200K kids could get deported when they turn 21

“The day she turns 21, Parvathinathan will no longer be protected by the work visa that allowed her parents to immigrate to the United States from India. And she may face deportation.

It's known as "aging out," and experts estimate that about 200,000 people like Parvathinathan are living in a similar limbo. Brought legally to the United States as children, many are scrambling to find ways to stay in the country they love. Some are forced to leave the US when they run out of options”

“The 19-year-old sophomore at Drexel University in Philadelphia hopes to become a doctor someday. Parvathinathan is majoring in biological sciences and trying to focus on her studies. But fears about her future loom over her. 

She first came to the US when she was 3 years old. And she doesn't want to be forced to abandon everything she's worked for and move to India, where she says she feels like a foreigner.

Parvathinathan says she tried to get a student visa so she can stay in the United States past her 21st birthday. It still hasn't arrived, 14 months after her application. She's on edge, waiting for word and jumping every time an email notification flashes across her cell phone screen”

 
Bush Center - 2016 - why the benefits of immigration outweigh the costs

“Immigration fuels the economy. When immigrants enter the labor force, they increase the productive capacity of the economy and raise GDP. Their incomes rise, but so do those of natives. It’s a phenomenon dubbed the “immigration surplus,” and while a small share of additional GDP accrues to natives — typically 0.2 to 0.4 percent — it still amounts to $36 to $72 billion per year.

In addition to the immigration surplus, immigrants grease the wheels of the labor market by flowing into industries and areas where there is a relative need for workers — where bottlenecks or shortages might otherwise damp growth.”

 
rockaction said:
But what sort of immigration policy would best suit everybody considered?
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First we HAVE to have a sealed border that allows zero illegals ... until that happens, policy's and laws don't matter

Once the border is sealed IMO

I say lets allow 3 million immigrants per year. To be granted immigration, paperwork needs filled out, background checks, vaccination records etc. Can't let criminals and covid people in, right ?  Yes, there will be far more wanting in than 3 million but that's a very gracious number and we can't take in all the worlds poor/poverty who live in crap countries, that's impossible

Also, we need anchor baby laws, that policy is badly abused IMO

 
Nugget said:
In addition to the immigration surplus, immigrants grease the wheels of the labor market by flowing into industries and areas where there is a relative need for workers
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gotta have that cheap illegal labor don't we? :(   I think fines needs to be 100X what they are now and the crackdown on human trafficking of laborer ended

now

I hate reading how great it is to economically enslave people trafficked to the USA for labor, hate it, its awful 

 
Stealthycat said:
gotta have that cheap illegal labor don't we? :(   I think fines needs to be 100X what they are now and the crackdown on human trafficking of laborer ended

now

I hate reading how great it is to economically enslave people trafficked to the USA for labor, hate it, its awful 
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I've never advocated for illegal labor.  I want it to be easier to become legal.  More legal immigration leads to less demand for human trafficking.  It sounds like you would support ending illegal immigration as well.  

 
Nugget said:
I've never advocated for illegal labor.  I want it to be easier to become legal.  More legal immigration leads to less demand for human trafficking.  It sounds like you would support ending illegal immigration as well.  
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To be fair, us conservatives have ALWAYS wanted to stop illegal immigration.  This isn't news.

We've always been fine with LEGAL immigration - and that means waiting in line like everyone else.  Just because you hop the border doesn't mean you get preference.  That's not fair to the million who are doing it the LEGAL way.

IMO, you come here illegally you get deported that same day back to the place you came from.  No ifs, ands or buts.  You do it right, or you don't do it at all.

 
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BladeRunner said:
To be fair, us conservatives have ALWAYS wanted to stop illegal immigration.  This isn't news.

We've always been fine with LEGAL immigration - and that means waiting in line like everyone else.  Just because you hop the border doesn't mean you get preference.  That's not fair to the million who are doing it the LEGAL way.

IMO, you come here illegally you get deported that same day back to the place you came from.  No ifs, ands or buts.  You do it right, or you don't do it at all.
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We have the ability to change the legal way.  Neither party seems to put a priority on it.  

So I linked to the story above of the student who came to India with her parents when she was 3.  Her parents can stay, but she will be deported at 21.  This falls under your "No ids, ands or buts" policy?

 
Nugget said:
We have the ability to change the legal way.  Neither party seems to put a priority on it.  

So I linked to the story above of the student who came to India with her parents when she was 3.  Her parents can stay, but she will be deported at 21.  This falls under your "No ids, ands or buts" policy?
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I haven't read the link, sorry. 

In a general sense, I'm not willing to throw a blanket and give amnesty to ALL the illegals already here.  However, I might be convinced to take things on a case-by-case basis or extenuating circumstances. 

 
Nugget said:
I've never advocated for illegal labor.  I want it to be easier to become legal.  More legal immigration leads to less demand for human trafficking.  It sounds like you would support ending illegal immigration as well.  
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absolutely - without border control, laws are rules are irrelevant 

 
So many issues in regards immigration:

Where do we house them, rent and housing prices are out of control

will we always need them for jobs, with technology and AI exploding.  My neighbor use to hire about 20 manual labors to milk/feed his 2000 cows.  He has since installed robots to milk the cows, and uses AI with a tag around the cows neck to determine when and how much to feed them. He has 4 employees now.  Most large farmers use auto steer on the farm equipment to drive them, basically driverless tractors, combines.  I could go on and on about farm tasks that have been eliminated due to AI, that use to need manual labor prior.  This is only going to increase as AI evolves.

our hospital systems have shown how vulnerable they are, a large flux of uninsured people will not help.  
 

Most people here illegally pay little to no federal or state income taxes.  Most send lots of money back home to help families rather then spend here. Don’t blame them for this.

Crime really needs to be addressed n this country, since the riots and the defund the police cry’s.  Who ever dreamed we would have flash mobs cleaning out stores, and the gun fights in places like Chicago need to be addressed.  Not blaming the illegals for this, but crime seems like a bigger problem.

we need to take a hard look at immigration, how many can we let in, how much federal/state tax dollars can we spend on them.  Need to keep an eye on how many jobs their will be for them 10 years from now as technology grows. How do we support them with health care /schools.  The schools in my district voted on an property tax override/ increase to fund the schools, it failed they don’t have enough money for the current students, without adding to the problem.

 
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