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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!) (3 Viewers)

scoobus said:
2.03 Kevin Garnett, PF, 00s I think

Trying reallllly hard not to take any 10s guys, as that's where most of my knowledge is. KG is one of, if not the, the fiercest competitors and best defensive players of all time.  Maybe one of the most underrated guys of all-time too by some, just landed in an awful situation in Minnesota for a majority of his career.  Even though I don't like the Celtics, was happy to see him win one, he deserved it.  Honestly think if him and Duncan had been put in opposite situations to start their careers you'd be seeing Garnett over Duncan in the all-time ranks, that's how close I think they were.
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I was JUST starting to dream.

 
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modogg said:
Good call asking for it. Brings a question I was wondering about to mind. 
 

when judging occurs are we planning on how the team would look for an entire year or are we looking at how a player was throughout that decade. I saw Derrick rose go in like the 9th or 10th round and thought that was really high for him considering he has been injured for a long time. But if we are taking him for just one year near his peak, might be worth it 
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As an all time draft I personally think it should be career more than peak. But having everyone (or almost everyone) participate in the judging will help level out the different lines of thinking so people don’t get pissed of when one judge comes up with one particular criteria. 

 
Yo Mama said:
JUDGING

Some of the frustrations with judging in other drafts is people not knowing what the criteria will be when drafting and then a judge comes in with their own ideas of what is important (like what has “menace”, or “I haven’t heard of this one before so I’m going to rank it last”), and then everyone gets mad.  In this draft, I’ll try to set some judging criteria in advance, but the key here will be participation of the drafters in the judging process.  Every drafter will agree to help judge at least 3 of the era categories as well as the 2 “post-season” rankings.  This will give more consensus, but more importantly will help smooth out the differences in opinion on what is valued higher – peak versus longevity, stats versus championships, all-stars and all-NBA selections versus Emmys (sorry, wrong draft).  Guest non-drafter judges are also welcome to contribute to any rankings.  I will consolidate all the rankings submissions unless others want to help tally the different category rankings.  Sorry if I’m being overly anal about the process, I just figured it would be helpful for everyone to have a framework for judging before we start drafting.
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From my judging post

 
Yo Mama said:
As an all time draft I personally think it should be career more than peak. But having everyone (or almost everyone) participate in the judging will help level out the different lines of thinking so people don’t get pissed of when one judge comes up with one particular criteria. 
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Have not thought it through but I'll probably dock anyone with less than three solid season in a decade.  I probably won't judge Rose kindly, unless it's Malik Rose.

 
Mister CIA said:
Have not thought it through but I'll probably dock anyone with less than three solid season in a decade.  I probably won't judge Rose kindly, unless it's Malik Rose.
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To follow up my own post, I'll look favorably on current all-stars with short but stellar résumés.

 
2.05: PG Steph Curry, 2010s

[As of December 2019], his 7.1 career offensive box plus/minus trails LeBron's first-place 7.2. But check out how his five-year peak stacks up:

Stephen Curry: 9.5
Michael Jordan: 9.3
LeBron James: 8.6
Magic Johnson: 7.2
Larry Bird: 6.6

Of course, the 2015-16 season right in the middle of that run contains the best single-season offensive box plus/minus of all time at 12.4.
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@Mister CIA

 
Curry was a great value, but I'd actually hoped he'd fall to me.

I'm super jealous of Gally right now.  Bird fell too far and now he gets one of my next two ranked guys, who I am shocked are still available.

 
Jayrod said:
I'm super jealous of Gally right now.  Bird fell too far and now he gets one of my next two ranked guys, who I am shocked are still available.
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Larry Bird went 1.09 to me in the draft slot trade.  Gally moved down to the 10 spot (Duncan) and is now on the board.

I do like the players on the board right now as well though.  Good stretch of talent mid-2nd round.

 
Jayrod said:
Curry was a great value, but I'd actually hoped he'd fall to me.

I'm super jealous of Gally right now.  Bird fell too far and now he gets one of my next two ranked guys, who I am shocked are still available.
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Obviously you can't spotlight your shock, but it does imply that there were reaches.  Name names, man. Who are the reaches?

 
trader jake said:
Larry Bird went 1.09 to me in the draft slot trade.  Gally moved down to the 10 spot (Duncan) and is now on the board.

I do like the players on the board right now as well though.  Good stretch of talent mid-2nd round.
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yeah being on the bookends is not great. I think Jordan is by far the best player ever when you look at the advanced stats and with the eye test, but lot of drop from #1 to #32. Might have to take Ben Simmons at #32

 
i'm glad we are going to take some time with the judging. Looking around at different lists of top NBA players of all time there is a lot of name recognition, but some of those guys are there because they were propped up by who they played with and some guys who were big names but their stats, and advanced stats, don't represent where they should be. 

Hard to determine with some of these guys what the actual value may be. There have been some terrific players on bad teams that had to deal with double teams and focus of the defense. 

ETA: holy hell, the Lakers seem to get an absurd amount of love on some of these lists. Was glancing through a list of centers and saw F'n Andrew Bynum mentioned on it.  

 
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modogg said:
i'm glad we are going to take some time with the judging. Looking around at different lists of top NBA players of all time there is a lot of name recognition, but some of those guys are there because they were propped up by who they played with and some guys who were big names but their stats, and advanced stats, don't represent where they should be. 

Hard to determine with some of these guys what the actual value may be. There have been some terrific players on bad teams that had to deal with double teams and focus of the defense. 
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Where would David Robinson rank had he been a Laker?

 
Mister CIA said:
Where would David Robinson rank had he been a Laker?
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in the era he played, i would think he could be around top 3-5. it's funny because you can give off the top of your head answers like that, then actually looking at the numbers makes it so much more interesting. 

He played from '90-'03, so he would have been there pre-Kobe for half his career. He would have had Magic for 6-7 years too. he averaged 21 pts/gm for his career and you have to think that number would have been closer to 25-27 if he were on the Lakers. 

 
modogg said:
[David Robinson] averaged 21 pts/gm for his career and you have to think that number would have been closer to 25-27 if he were on the Lakers. 
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It wasn't being on the Spurs that held Robinson back -- it was his lost 1996-97 season with back ailments and a broken foot. Before those injuries, he already was a steady 25+ ppg game scorer.

Robinson's lost season in San Antonio enabled the team to get the lottery pick that would eventually turn into Tim Duncan. The rest was history.

 
Doug B said:
It wasn't being on the Spurs that held Robinson back -- it was his lost 1996-97 season with back ailments and a broken foot. Before those injuries, he already was a steady 25+ ppg game scorer.

Robinson's lost season in San Antonio enabled the team to get the lottery pick that would eventually turn into Tim Duncan. The rest was history.
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good point. i also think if they didn't get the chance to draft Duncan Robinson probably would have had better overall numbers. 

Grading this is going to be tricky. I am way off with some of these top 50 players of all time list. I'll wait until one guy that really stands out to me gets drafted but he is valued way, way higher then i think he should be

 
Mister CIA said:
Obviously you can't spotlight your shock, but it does imply that there were reaches.  Name names, man. Who are the reaches?
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Looking at the board, I am most surprised by Hayes and a little surprised by Baylor so early.  I also thought Curry wouldn't go so soon with some of the other names still out there, but I was keeping my eye on him as well.

 
modogg said:
good point. i also think if they didn't get the chance to draft Duncan Robinson probably would have had better overall numbers. 

Grading this is going to be tricky. I am way off with some of these top 50 players of all time list. I'll wait until one guy that really stands out to me gets drafted but he is valued way, way higher then i think he should be
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:confused:   I thought he was like a 3rd year guy with the Heat?

 
trader jake said:
Larry Bird went 1.09 to me in the draft slot trade.  Gally moved down to the 10 spot (Duncan) and is now on the board.

I do like the players on the board right now as well though.  Good stretch of talent mid-2nd round.
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Right, it's you I'm jealous of.

Where the heck is @Gally anyway?  Make your pick, man!

 
Jayrod said:
Looking at the board, I am most surprised by Hayes and a little surprised by Baylor so early.  I also thought Curry wouldn't go so soon with some of the other names still out there, but I was keeping my eye on him as well.
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My thinking with taking Baylor where I did was partially his overall value and partially his replacement value. The difference between him and another SF from the 60s that would be available in a few rounds is much greater than say Curry and another PG from the 10s in a few rounds. (Not to single out Curry, I was thinking the same thing with Karl Malone and 90s PFs). Plus Eff Karl Malone.

 
Good morning, everyone.  Let's get this thing going today and keep it going for a while.  We should be able to get through the 3rd round if everyone even halfway pays attention.  Check in from time to time and be ready when your turn is close.  Just don't check out for 3+ hours.

@Gally, kick us off!

 
Kev4029 said:
I'm not necessarily surprised that he wasn't #2, although that is definitely where I would have taken him, I'm blown away he dropped to #6. The only argument I could really make not to take him ahead of Wilt and Russell is that in this format there are a lot of really good players from the 10s whereas the the 60s are very shallow. I don't think there is a real argument to make for Magic or Kareem (especially since Kareem's longevity is a bit diluted in this format). 
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rockaction said:
I'm gonna chirp from courtside. I was shocked he didn't go second. The others all have great cases, but damn...we're talking about greatness and longevity to boot, plus playing with athletes as big, fast, and as crazily athletic as the ones today, ones that span almost two generations while LeBron still LeBrons and is still, amazingly, one of the best at it by all accounts.

The King.
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I realized I never responded to these posts that believe LeBron would be a better pick than Kareem, so here is my rebuttal.

If Lebron gets lauded for his longevity so does Kareem.  I'm pretty confident that Kareem's separation at center in the 70's is greater than LeBron's at SF in the 10's.

Lebron isn't done yet, but Kareem has more rings, more MVPs, more all-D teams, more All-star games and more points.  Kareem dominated 1 decade (70's) and was one of the top 5 players in another (80's).  This draft is about what the player has done so far, not what they may do in the next few years.  At this point in time, Kareem had a better career than LeBron.

I think the main issue is that people remember this Kareem more from the late 80's, but forget all about Lew Alcindor in the early 70's.  Dude was a bad, bad man for a long, long time.  He carried on for longer than most, but I don't see how that is a detriment.  If you can still start 24 playoff games at center for a championship team when you are 42, why not do it?  Nobody lucks into or barely wins 6 MVPs.

 
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@Yo Mama Since you're the farthest out from me, can I send you a 2-3 player pick list? If these guys don't pick in the next 10 mins I'll be out for a couple hours don't want to hold folks up. 

or maybe @scoobus you're near the end too

 
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wikkidpissah said:
takes some getting used to, esp since the whole reason for this all is really the dialogue, the comps...
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There's like a one-round-ish delay for most writeups for this reason I think. Will try to make sure I do them for my picks still because I agree that's the best part.

 
Instinctive said:
There's like a one-round-ish delay for most writeups for this reason I think. Will try to make sure I do them for my picks still because I agree that's the best part.
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when Ma was setting this up, i wanted to insist that, unlike recent FFA drafts, judges actually read the writeups. they have lately been avoiding that so not to be biased qbout the drafter, but it makes less sense to avoid the case made for the selections. i WANT people to look at my briefs...

 
wikkidpissah said:
when Ma was setting this up, i wanted to insist that, unlike recent FFA drafts, judges actually read the writeups. they have lately been avoiding that so not to be biased qbout the drafter, but it makes less sense to avoid the case made for the selections. i WANT people to look at my briefs...
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I assumed we'd write up a brief for each of our teams

 
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